46000 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! buddhistmedi... Hi Charles {Attn.: Htoo, Sarah } - I have a thought while reading your remarks on Anatta (from Anattalakkhana Sutta, SN XXII.59). CharlesD : The problem with this suttra, and most like it, is that it assumes that if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being. Those that believe in a soul do not believe the soul has such, they tend to view the soul the same way that some Buddhist view re-birth-consciousness. Tep: I am not so sure that the Buddha said in SN XXII.59 that "if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being", Charles. This is what He said about the form (rupa): "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' " The same Truth applies to the other 4 aggregates within the pancakkhandha. Sincerely yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Tep and Htoo, > (snipped) > I am bring up these points because we need to be careful when declaring the truth of a doctrine. If I believe the soul to be one of the above definitions, the only thing you could have claimed was I had the wrong concept (i.e., name) or the wrong definition of a soul. The above definitions (except the word "spiritual") are acceptable concepts, or realities (if you prefer), to most Buddhist. > > > CharlesD > > 46001 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Desirable object - not important? gazita2002 Hello Nina and Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > op 24-05-2005 02:27 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: ....snip...... > Ph: I *think* that feeling is more likely > > to appear to my ignorant mind than other dhammas.. > > We often hear that understanding nama from rupa is the "first > > stage of tender insight" (to quote you) - feeling can be an object > > that can help us here because it is hard for me to distinguish > > mental feeling from body feeling at times. > ----------- > N: As you mention, it is difficult to know feeling before the first stage of > insight. Of course, bodily feeling is an extremely short moment of vipaaka, > arising with body-consciousness. Azita: i find this hard to grasp - this 'short moment'. intellectually, I believe it but... when there is painful bodily feeling, it seems to go on for a long time. I guess it means there are many 'short moments' following on from each other, conditioning the next moment. Its usually 'my pain' and we cling to that? Feeling accompanying akusala cittas that > think about vipaaka arise so soon after that. > Mental feeling also conditions bodily phenomena, thus, there is no end to > the tangle. Azita: your comment above kind of explains what I'm talking about. > We are bound to take feelings for self, we find them very important. > > I think it is helpful not to have any idea about which phenomenon can help > us more than others. Then it seems that there is a preference, a selection. > As Kh Sujin said about breath: for paññaa? Who knows the next moment. Breath is like that.> > I read to Lodewijk Jon's words: generosity, in the end they all have to be known.> > Lodewijk found that most helpful. > Nina. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 46002 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: Anyone can join and enjoy rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, We had a discussion about this a few years ago on DSG. As I remember it the Netti does say that it is better to have tanha for nibbana than to have tanha for say woman. The commentary explains that all tanha is akusala but some is not as bad as others.. We can see that almost all Buddhists have so much desire for quick knowledge, it is inevitable that it is like this in the beginning because tanha is all that wordlings know, it is conditioned to arise. Tanha can never show us the right way, but it could be a condition to study Dhamma texts: and so we can see how akusala can be a suporting condition for kusala to arise. My opinion though is that unless tanha is seen (early on) as been aksuala, that most people will try top develop the path with tanha and avijja - and that is impossible. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Robert K, > > Could you please check these statements of Robert Morrison's 'Three > Cheers of Tanha'. > > quote: > > ''[32] Using this model, we can therefore fill out the statement 'he > abandons ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa': ta.nhaa, whose aims and > objects are within sa.msaara, is to be abandoned by > developing 'appropriate' [tajja] ta.nhaa, which is a form of ta.nhaa > that can become 'appeased' as its aim is Arahantship. But what form > would this appropriate ta.nhaa take? Although there are no such terms > in the suttas as 'thirsting after Arahantship' (arahatta-ta.nhaa), > or 'thirsting after the Dhamma' (dhamma-ta.nhaa),[33] the notion that > ta.nhaa can have Arahantship as its aim is found in the post- > canonical Nettippakara.na:[34]'' > > What do you think? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 46003 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Tep, Htoo, Larry (and Nina and Azita from other thread) and all > > Phil : Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we stop proliferating, brought > back by a moment of mindfulness of feeling? > > Tep: I believe that sati alone is enough to stop the flow, but sati doesn't > cut off the flow of a feeling or any defilement that accompanies it. Panna > can. "Truth of the path" can cause cessation of vedana, according to > SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta. Feelings cease in Nibbana. > > "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his > mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] > knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of > feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, > such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] > Ph: Thanks all for your feedback. Typically, I won't press too hard to figure this out. Today I was walking in the park, and because the wweather is nice and the rainy season is coming there are groups of kids *everywhere* having sports meetings etc in the park, where I had gone to get away from the infernal racket from the school next door. (Loudspeaker blaring out songs that the kids dance along to - really looks and sounds like North Korea) So a lot of dosa today because of my lobha for peace and quiet - and because it gives me the creeps to see kids dancing in choreographed groups. I was aware of the dosa, the unpleasant mental feeling and reflected on it again and again and there was a stopping of proliferating again and again. Or was there? I don't know. I'm talking about an extremely shallow degree of sati here. I have no idea what's going on with my citta flow, really. By chance this morning, I found in Bhikkhu Bodhi's intro to the Vedanasamyutta a description of what sounds a bit like what I was trying to figure out: "Feeling is a key link in the chain of dependent origination, the immediate precursor of craving, and thus to break the chain requires that our defiled responses to feeling be overcome. (snip) The Buddha's system of mental training aims at controlling our reactions to these feelings at the very point where they arise, without allowing them to proliferate and call their correspondng tendencies into play." Of course we're talking here about a more advanced insight than I have "access" to, if you will (where have I heard that before? access to insight...might be a good title for a pop Buddhist bestseller! Hmmmm) so I won't think too much about it - for now. I can see that to think that a worldling could cut the link at feeling would be a mistake, certainly. Metta, Phil 46004 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah - > > T: Now you are trying to persuade me to think along the line of Ajahn > Sujin's application of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. Sincerely, I > have a deep admiration of her skillful thoughts which are conditioned > by decades of intensive study of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what the > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? I am trying to discover more about this elusive woman. ;-) BTW, I like your response and it is very diplomatic. We should focus on what the Buddha taught, not on what anyone else teaches (or at least differentiate the sources). Otherwise, it just gets very confusing. Metta, James ps. Phil, if you are reading, I will get to your posts later. Running off to school now. ;-) 46005 From: "Eznir" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:52pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma eznir2003 Dear Sukin, Refer message 45585 by Sukin Why be mindful of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and avijja? Sukin: As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. .......................... "As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the unaccumulated alobha and vijja. Alobha will not attach to and proliferate on all signs even if they be not a glimpse of understanding. Since there was accumulated panna, we have been interested in the Buddha's words. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite non-accumulated alobha, amoha and also samma ditthi." Here Sukin, I have tried to re-word the essence of what you say in the opposite sense as faithfully as I could. I think you will agree that if what you did say here is possible, then what you did *not* say here is also equally possible, under any circumstances - which is the present moment. The difference between the two is that they are exactly opposite in sense and neither has *happened* in the present moment, that you are faced with, as yet. Now you may ask, "How do you keep the unaccumulated alobha and vijja in mind?" And I will ask in reply, "How do you keep the accumulated lobha and avijja in mind?" You would reply, "By listening to the Dhamma from a wise person (or reading)". Then I would ask, "Does he only speak of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and vijja?" and this conversation would go on. We as human beings generally seek happiness and not suffering, the Tatagatha is also known as the well-farer. This happiness or suffering is in the present moment and depends on how we pay *attention* to it. The way to do just *this* - attention to the present moment - is varied. Nevertheless none of us would approach this present moment with a *clean sheet*, except the Arahants who can continuously be in the sati-sampajanna mode if they want to. All those below an Arahant, even an Anagami, would have their *sheets* soiled somewhat. The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. ............................ I agree. And this person will present the Dhamma in such a way that one is inspired, aroused, propelled and delighted listening to the Dhamma. Sukin: This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. This friend would not only point out the tendencies of lobha that lead us to the wrong way but would also point out the skills needed to pick the right way! This is where his instructions come in. One would be inspired to follow his instruction without delay since one gets delighted just by listening to him present the Dhamma, because he has aroused those sankharas within one long since forgotten, those skills acquired by us in our long trek in sansara no cdoubt! One should note that feelings, perception, intention, contact, attention, effort, applied and sustained thought, are some of the cetasikas common to both wholesome *and* unwholesome states, ie in all types of consciousness we experience at any given moment, except in the rupavacara and arupavacara consciousness (other than the first jhana) and in the cessation of perception and feeling, where only the life principle together with heat is present. Therefore whether the need of the present moment is to rob a bank or to attain the cessation of perception and feeling, these very same cetasikas have to be used skillfully following the instructions of a teacher who is experienced in these matters. In all these you might still contend that a self is doing these things, but is there a self? Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? ................................. A good teacher would ask the students to keep the 5 precepts which is something to be done, isn't it? Or do you say that it is the 'self' here seeking something through the 5 precepts? Ok, let's say it is the self who is seeking. Then would this thing he is seeking *by keeping the 5 precepts*, lead towards less suffering or more suffering? I'm sure you must be knowing Abhidhamma very well where ones experience is broken down into elements and also considers the various aspects of an experience. Tell me where in Abhidhamma does it speak of a self? None. Then what is this self that you highlight here? Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and instruct accordingly! It's like training the mind of a child to do things that he would not comprehend, but would appreciate their importance when he grows up. You will observe here that the child needs to *do* those things if he is to get enlightened! And his enlightenment is a result of having done the right things at the right time - a matter of cause and conditionality - and has nothing to do with self. Which the child did not know at the time he was following the instruction of his parents *when he was a child*. Thus a child outgrows his childness and becomes an adult. In much the same way a Puthujjana would outgrow his 'puthujjana-ness' and become a sotapatti. In the case of the child he acquires right experience with right view at the right time and becomes a 'good' adult. In the puthujjana he eradictes 'wrong experience' with right view at the right time and becomes a sotapatti. The rightness of the view in both cases is relative, in one it is to become a good adult- anuloma, the other to become an Arahant hence patisotagami though he is not an Arahant as yet and not patiloma as such but retardation has started and he has still things to do (refer Kitagiri Sutta 70 in MN) Sukin: Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? .............................................. The craving that you refer to here can also be dhammachanda or rightful wish which is skillful, except this 'craving' is different to the craving to other things that are unwholesome, could this not be so? It can be verified as to which kind of craving it is by reflection. There is no self involved here, it is just a matter of cause and conditionality as in the case of 'the child'. What you are, whether a child or adult, puthujjana or sotapatti depends on ones determinations/intentions - sankharas, which is either acquired or eradicated. Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? .......................................... And when the teacher reminds the student about what indeed he experienced in the moment, and thus when the student understands this according to his 'accumulated panna', isn't this 'purposeful observation' on the part of the student guided by the more experienced teacher? Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? ............................................ Some Dhammas are impossible to understand intellectually and these others that you state here can be known. But how is a thing 'known' really in a mundane sense? Doesn't this knowing imply a self? When a thing is 'known' in the supramundane sense does it imply a self? If not, what is the difference in these two 'knowings'? Sukin: And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! .......................................................... Isn't it Saddha when you follow your teacher by doing this and that as he says and eventually find your self confidence increasing together with the confidence in your teacher! Would this be pointing to a self? Note here that the 'self' in 'self confidence' is not the usual rendering of the word. Sukin: But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. .......................................................... This may be partly true. But I wouldn't put all the teachers into this basket. There are those who say things with a reason behind, knowing the character of the student. But when you say, "This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko." it is not right on the part of those teachers who are true. Sukin: However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. ........................................................... "However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately", how do you come to this conclusion? No doubt during our long trek in sansara we would have accumulated so much of 'wrong view'. Nevertheless, if we are resigned to and are mindful of only this notion, 'right view' will never get an opportunity to arise! Sukin: I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. ........................................................ The scenario given here is only possible between a mis-guided teacher and a foolish student. If the teacher was genuine then the student has misunderstood the teacher or if the students were intelligent they should be able to see through the teachers ignorance. The suttas give guidlines on how to gauge a good teacher (refer Vimamsaka Sutta 47 in MN) Sukin: But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. ........................................ This is why a genuine teacher's guidance is needed to see that the student is not misled. Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas,...... ............................... There is no one to control the Dhammas, *even in a Puthujjana*. It is only certain akusala dhammas that led to the propogation of kamma in a Puthujjana as did the kusala dhammas that led to the eradication of kamma in an Arahat. In both cases there was no self involved! Sukin: .....one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ................................................ By purposeful observation! Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing,..... .................................................. I wonder how one pays attention to the present moment without being purposeful! As you said earlier on, there are dhammmas arising all the time. These dhammas do not arise without consciousness as a support. And where there is consciousness there is intention or purpose, the intended purpose for consciousness to *be*! And in that moment, to the skillful, the dhammas are to be seen with the eye of wisdom - paccattam vedi tabbo vinnuhi! Metta, eznir 46006 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 10:54pm Subject: There is a being only when there are clinging aggregates (was Re: Anatta) philofillet Hi all Trolling around at random in past posts, came across this one of James on the khandas, and what the clinging aggregates imply. I think it's very interesting - I hadn't come across the "there is a being only when there are clinging aggregates" idea - so I thought I'd pass it on. Metta, Phil p.s Choosing a post by James to read reminded me of the old days when I used to look forward to reading his posts to see just how excitingly obnoxious he would be! Sigh...it seems those days are gone - until tomorrow, at least. (haha) > Victor: I suggested you refer to the Satta Sutta regarding to what > extent is one said to be a 'being' and noted that the Buddha did not > say that a being is made up of the five aggregate. > > James: Yes and no. Actually, he said that a being is made up of the > five `clinging' aggregates. The aggregates just on their own, or > even together, don't make a being; however, when there is clinging to > the five aggregates: form, perception, feeling, mental fabrications, > and consciousness, then there is a being: > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one > is caught up (satta) there, tied up (visatta) there, one is said to > be 'a being (satta).' > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... > perception... fabrications... > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: > when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a > being.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn23-002.html > > The important thing to consider is that desire, passion, delight, and > craving for the five aggregates is makes a being. Therefore, it is > the craving mind that makes a being, not the aggregates themselves. > > The craving mind is what pulls the aggregates together. In this > sutta, the Buddha even draws the analogy of a `being' being like a > sand castle built by children. When they delight in it and play in > it, the being is present. When they grow tired of it and no longer > delight in it, and smash it, the being is gone. Of course this > supposes an interesting metaphysical question as to who > the `children' are supposed to represent, but I don't think that is > important to consider too deeply. Maybe this metaphor shouldn't be > taken that literally. > > I think it is important to realize that the five aggregates are not > really `parts' of a being, but simply a method of analysis created by > the Buddha for the purpose of release. The five aggregates are an > ever-constant process and they cannot be separated from each other, > therefore they are not `parts'. (I know there is that `chariot' > metaphor, with its parts, but I don't believe it is to be taken > literally?Ef it was, the Buddha would have used such a description, > but he didn't). The important thing is to understand that it is the > clinging mind that creates a being and thus creates suffering. > > Metta, James 46007 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:05am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 202 - Zeal/chanda (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda arises with the eight types of lobha-múla-citta. When chanda arises with lobha-múla-citta it searches for the desirable object, it needs that object. Although chanda is different from lobha which can only be of the jåti which is akusala, when they arise together it is hard to distinguish between them. When we like to obtain a pleasant object, lobha is attached and it is chanda which can accomplish the obtaining of that desired object. Lobha could not accomplish anything by itself. However, also when we do not need to obtain an object we are attached to, there is chanda accompanying the lobha-múla-citta. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46008 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] question on seeking permission from parents sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a monk > A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either one will > do .... S: I have always read parents' permission (in the plural). 1. Mahavagga 1 In response to Suddhodana's plea: ".....Then the Lord on this occasion, in this connection, having given reasoned talk, addressed the monks, saying: "Monks, a child who has not his parents' consent should not be let go forth. Whoever should let (one such) go forth, there is an offence of wrong-doing." ***** 2. Suttavibhanga, Expiation (Paacittiya) LXXX In response to the nun Thullanandaa ordaining 'a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband' "The enlightened one, the lord, rebuked them, saying: 'How, monks, can the nun Thullanandaa ordain a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband? It is not, monks, for pleasing those who are not (yet) pleased....this rule of training: *Whatever nun should ordain a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband, there is an offence of expiation'* (footnote - the 22nd of the 24 questions to be put to a nun at her ordination was whether she had her parents' and husband's consent, Vinii 271). Note: the offence here is 'for the group and for the woman teacher'. "There is no offence if she ordains her not knowing; if she ordains her, (she) having obtained permission; if she is mad, if she is the first wrong-doer." .... > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in the > family. If the family has a few children, then as long as there are > some children not ordained, one of them who wished to be obtained, > dont need the parent permission. I said I have to checked, I really > dont know about this point as I only know one needs parents' > permisson. .... S: It's true that Rahula was an only child and there are other references to the grief on account of an only child going forth (eg the story of Sudinna in Suttavibhanga), but I don't see any exceptions when it comes to the rules with regard to large families. Hope this helps. Perhaps Ven Dhammanando or others may add more as Htoo suggested. Metta, Sarah ======== 46009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] nilovg Hi James, Rob K had Part of her Book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas separately printed as Realities and Concepts. A small booklet. If you give me your postal address in Cairo I can send it, no problem. It is also available on Rob's web or on Zolag. But the material is not suitable to read quickly on the net. It should be read a little at a time. That is why I always prefer books. Nina. op 25-05-2005 05:33 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views > on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? I am trying to discover > more about this elusive woman. ;-) 46010 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I continue with our discussion: ======================= > Htoo: > The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or she > will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will > attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she > follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if > one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half > month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 > days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents of > defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. > > 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general > statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or > 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for > average person and it is for most frequencies. > > There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at > such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. Sukin: I have been disinclined to find out what this Gaussian Bell is all about. I do not see any relationship between the findings of science and mathematics with Dhamma. But you seem to be so in this particular case, so I wonder if you are not to some extent projecting significance on to these figures which may not be there? I personally think that this figure of 7 years, 7 days and so on is only symbolic. And that it signifies a relatively short period of time in which, were the conditions right for patipatti to arise regularly, then that person would reach the goal. What is your idea of the "average person" here? What in terms of parami and accumulated wisdom is your `average man', and is he also Bahussuta? How do you know that you and I are in this average? Is it helpful to think this way? Does it condition samvega and saddha or does it arouse ambition and wrong understanding? I think our attention should instead be, on understanding as much as we can, and not to overreach and try to imitate or otherwise to justify what we believe in. Metta, Sukinder 46011 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion: =========================== > S=> > Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you > are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various > teachers of meditation > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here you are completely and totally wrong. I have already given you > examples. The examples are Kondanna, Santati, Pataacaaraa and also Ananda. > Did I suggest you any 'practice' as you quoted. I have just been > talking on mahasatipatthaana and 14 contemplation on the body, 1 > contemplation on the feeling, 1 contemplation on the mind, 5 > contemplations on the dhamma that arise. Sukinder: If I am wrong, then very good, I'll be very happy. But you do take Satipatthana Sutta to mean deliberate `doing' don't you? And you have shown your admiration for some meditation teachers, for example Mahasi Sayadaw haven't you? Both of us believe in and greatly value the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. But your interpretation is such that this is a `manual for practice' and you go about trying to follow it. Whereas I see it more as a reminder about what the correct attention to experiences is, such that one of the results might be a reminder about `wrong patipatti' that would otherwise naturally arise and proliferated were there not the right pariyatti to keep in check. ;-) =============================== > Sukin continued: > and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I see. O! I see. You are just talking on 'a momentary arising of sati > and panna'. Sukinder: Is this the first time you heard this? =============================== > Htoo: > So you will be driving your children to the school and you are > developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are driving, reading > these messages, you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when > you are relaxedly doing daily acitvities like watching news, talking > news to friends, discussing discussion points with friends and > momentarily developing sati and panna. Sukinder: So you like to visualize and come to a conclusion about what might be going on in the mind of another person? ;-) Let's just say that I am not troubled by any lack of sati. What I do value is that, if and when there is a reminder regarding dhamma, that I should have the *correct view* about it. I am happy with `right intellectual understanding', including the fact that I am not following any `wrong practice'. Akusala is akusala, it is easy to recognize it, at least intellectually. Why be so concerned about it to the point that one then looses sight of the right view? =============================== Htoo: > I see. I see. > > You never sit because it is conventional and it may cause you > reaching on the wrong path? Sukinder: No, having the `idea' itself is start of the wrong path. ============================== Htoo: > Sukin continued: > not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, > place or activity. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I just see these as 'words'. There are 'words' like 'sati and panna, > accumulation, no control'. > > But I do not think 'a momentary sati' and 'momentary panna' is enough > to understand The Buddha teachings. Sukinder: No, it is far from enough. But the point is if it is not, then what is the correct attitude towards this fact? Is it one that then conditions `doing'? Or can one have the right pariyatti in relation to this very fact, which may then point to the need for other conditions to be developed, like hearing and considering more? This of course, does not imply not seeing the importance of developing satipatthana, mind you. Only perhaps knowing this intellectually may be the best that could be had for the moment. ;-) ============================= Htoo: > Because just in 'a blink' there have been 1,000,000,000,000 > consciousness happened. So in a second there will be more and in a > minute there are more and more moments. Sukinder: It doesn't matter how many moments of Right View arise, there is no control over conditions. It is however less harmful to have other forms of akusala arising in greater number, than to have heard the Dhamma and understood it in a way that one is then lead to a wrong conclusion about theory and practice. When one is `convinced' about the wrong being right, then this is unfortunate. Metta, Sukinder. Ps: The statement by Robert K, which I suggested that you misunderstood, is from your post titled, "Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha". Here is part of it, <> I got the impression that you thought that this is a linear process involving pariyatti to a certain point after which patipatti will then start to develop. Such thinking could lead to an "obsession" with study, but this is not so. Pariyatti cannot develop without patipatti arising too. If I misinterpreted you, then I am wrong, and we can just drop this topic. 46012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:46am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi James and Nina - Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the following Website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and other writings of Ajahn Sujin. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views > on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? 46013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:53am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, try walking meditation. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Htoo, Larry (and Nina and Azita from other thread) and all > (snipped) > > Ph: Thanks all for your feedback. Typically, I won't press too > hard to figure this out. Today I was walking in the park, and > because the wweather is nice and the rainy season is coming there > are groups of kids *everywhere* having sports meetings etc in the > park, where I had gone to get away from the infernal racket from the > school next door. (Loudspeaker blaring out songs that the kids dance > along to - really looks and sounds like North Korea) So a lot of > dosa today because of my lobha for peace and quiet - and because it > gives me the creeps to see kids dancing in choreographed groups. > > I was aware of the dosa, the unpleasant mental feeling and > reflected on it again and again and there was a stopping of > proliferating again and again. Or was there? I don't know. I'm > talking about an extremely shallow degree of sati here. I have no > idea what's going on with my citta flow, really. 46014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, op 24-05-2005 20:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: N: Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible > for us to live in the world. >> So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by > ahirika, >> shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of > akusala. They are >> unknown. > > Ph: I don't quite understand here, Nina.... When I think of samalobha I usually think > either of Rob K's ice cream or your reaching out to the hot water > tap when in the bath. Harmless but inevitable for worldlings. N: I was actually thinking aloud about ahirika and anottappa, being impressed by the reminder they give. Larry had just posted this part. I was meditating on it! Enjoy your icecream, but also, we can realize that there are ahirika and anottappa, that we do not see the disadvantage of akusala. I would not call any degree, even a weak degree of akusala, harmless. Natural yes, but not harmless. Sama lobha is different from visama lobha in as far as we do not harm others by sama lobha, but all the same it is accumulated. But understanding of all degrees can be developed. That keeps the balance in our life: not being lax and on the other hand, not being insincere and unnatural, in trying not to enjoy pleasant objects. It is another matter to think that lobha is good for our social life, but I do not think you meant that. ---------- Ph: If we didn't have it, it would be unnatural. That's what I meant by "makes > it possible..." > Are you warning against being complacent about samalobha? -------- N: I needn't warn you, I think you understand the Middle Way. In between enjoying icecream, there can be also be moments of understanding of different realities. We can learn! We are in the procees of learning. Therefore, we need all the reminders and all the help we can get hold of. The monk who is not an anagami still has attachment to icecream. But he has to review food that is given to him with wise reflection. In our situation we can apply this: by developing understanding of nama and rupa also when eating. Difficult, but we can learn, without forcing ourselves. Then there are hiri and ottappa instead of ahirika and anottappa. This is one of the four parisuddhi siilas (morality consisting in purity), paccaya sannissita siila. The others are: the Patimokkha restraint, guarding the sense-doors, and purity in livelihood. ****** Now I want to add something that does not refer to your mail, I am thinking aloud again! It refers to sila, samadhi and paññaa. The four parisuddhi siilas brought me to this elaboration. We see that the four parisuddhi siilas can be accompanied by paññaa. Especially guarding the sense doors. The Buddha taught Vinaya, but it is implied that it should go together with satipatthana. We read many times in the mahaapirinibbaana sutta: when siila is developed, it leads to concentration, when concentration is developed it leads to paññaa. I looked at the Co in Pali (this is clearer than the English I have) and saw under siila: these four siilas I mentioned. As to concentration, samaadhi, this is not without paññaa. The concentration, samaadhi, of the eightfold Path are mindfulness and concentration and these should be accompanied by paññaa. Never without it. As you know, there are the siila, the samaadhi and the paññaa of the eightfold Path. The Paññaa includes right view and right thinking, vitakka cetasika, that hits the object so that paññaa can understand it. Samaadhi when fully developed is, according to the Co. , samaadhi accompanying magga-citta and phalacitta. Samaadhi when fully developed leads to understanding, and this is understanding accompanying magga-citta and phala-citta. Here we see that they are intertwined. They both accompany path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness. This helps me to understand texts about concentration in the suttas, we have to add: also sati! Concentration is not mere focussing, it is sati and concentration which are together the concentration of the eightfold Path. And never without understanding. When there is mindfulness of a nama or rupa, sati is non-forgetful and one-pointedness or samaadhi performs its function of focussing on one object, just for a moment. It is momentary concentration, khanika samaadhi. The factors are developed together, through satipatthana. Nina 46015 From: nina Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 160 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160. Shamelessness, ahirika, and recklessness, anottappa. Intro: In this text ahirika is translated as consciencelessness and anottappa as shamelessness. In other translations ahirika is rendered as shamelessness and anottappa as recklessness. It is advisable to use the Pali next to the English terms. Ahirika and anottappa are akusala cetasikas that accompany each akusala citta. Whenever akusala citta arises these two akusala cetasikas perform their functions, they do not draw back from evil. Ahirika is not ashamed of akusala, it does not see its ugliness and impurity, and anottappa does not see the danger of akusala and does not fear its consequences. Ahirika and anottappa are the opposites of hiri and ottappa which accompany each sobhana citta. ******* Text Vis.: Herein, (xxxvii) it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is 'consciencelessness' (ahirika). (xxxviii) It is unashamed, thus it is 'shamelessness' (anottappa). Of these, 'consciencelessness' (ahirika) has the characteristic of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the characteristic of immodesty. 'Shamelessness' (anottappa) has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of absence of anxiety about them. This is in brief here. The detail, however, is the opposite of what was said above under conscience (xi)and shame (xii). N: The Tiika refers to what was said about shame, hiri, and fear of blame, ottappa (Vis. XIV, 142) in its explanation of the functions, manifestations and proximate causes. Ahirika and anottappa are the opposites of hiri and ottappa. The Tiika states: Shamelessness has the function of doing evil and that in the mode of immmodesty (alajjaa), whereas fear of blame has the function of doing it and that in the mode of fearlessness (anuttaasaa). They are manifested as not shrinking (asa²nkocana) from evil in the way already stated. Their proximate causes are lack of self-respect and lack of respect for others [respectively]. N: According to the Tiika, ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself. For a detailed explanation the Tiika refers to what was said about their opposites. As we have seen, the proximate cause of shame, hiri, is selfrespect; it has a subjective origin, and oneself is the predominant influence. It arises when one considers one¹s birth and education, one¹s age, courage and strength and wide experience. When there is shamelessness, one does not consider these things. One behaves like a fool or a weakling, not according to the Dhamma one studied. The proximate cause of ottappa is respect for others, it has an external origin and the world is the predominant influence. When there is lack of fear of blame, one has no respect for others and one does not think of the consequences of evil. ****** Conclusion: The study of ahirika and anottappa can remind us of the danger of being careless with regard to akusala. Akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, and thus, there are countless moments of ahirika and anottappa, but we do not notice them. When we are enjoying ourselves, we do not want to see the disadvantages of akusala. At such moments ahirika and anottappa perform their functions, so that the ugliness and danger of akusala is not seen. When we are attached to pleasant things we accumulate more lobha and thus, it will arise again. It can motivate evil deeds which bring an unpleasant result in the form of an unhappy rebirth or unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of life. When we are not thinking of daana, siila or mental development, we are thinking with akusala cittas, and at such moments ahirika and anottappa perform their functions. So long as all akusala has not been eradicated ahirika and anottappa are bound to arise, countless times. Only the arahat has eradicated all akusala and thus, for him there are no more ahirika and anottappa. **** Nina. 46016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Desirable object - not important? nilovg Hi Azita, op 25-05-2005 01:25 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: ----------- >> N: As you mention, it is difficult to know feeling before the first > stage of >> insight. Of course, bodily feeling is an extremely short moment of > vipaaka, >> arising with body-consciousness. > > Azita: i find this hard to grasp - this 'short moment'. > intellectually, I believe it but... when there is painful bodily > feeling, it seems to go on for a long time. I guess it means there > are many 'short moments' following on from each other, conditioning > the next moment. > Its usually 'my pain' and we cling to that? N: There are many processes, and in several of these one moment of painful feeling may occur. Pain seems continuous, and here the idea of continuity prevents us from seeing the arising and falling away of it. Thus, painful feeling falls away, but it seems to last. As you say: 'my pain'. It is one moment produced by kamma. I would not say it conditions the next moment. It conditions receiving-consciousness by contiguity condition, that is all. Another moment of pain in another process is also produced by kamma, not by a former pain. Nina. 46017 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Tep > Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati > in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, > try walking meditation. Thanks for the advice, but I really don't think that kind of meditation woud suit me. I used to walk around parks and imagine I was projecting metta at people but I saw through that. Later, I walked around parks aware of the in and out breath. Now I just walk. There is so much going on, all the time. If you rely on "a suppportive environment" to condition sati, what does it say about the rest of the day when you are removed from your supportive condition? I would rather be aware of a lot of evident akusala than be unaware of akusala dressed up like kusala. And I like exercise as well. Walking around in slow motion in the hope of having sati would be pretty silly when I don't even tell nama from rupa! This does not apply to everyone. As I heard from Kh Sujin tonight "it's impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Metta, Phil 46018 From: Ken O Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood ashkenn2k HI Ven Dhammanando Bhikkhu and everyone I like to dicuss the right livelihood again about trading human - does a pimp of a brothel trade in human assume all the prostitues are willing employees about trading in intoxicants - does a waiter or a cashier consider trading in intoxicants if they sell alcoholic products regards Ken O p.s. Thanks Htoo and Sarah for your explanation on parents' permissions :-) 46019 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) philofillet Hi Nina > I would not call > any degree, even a weak degree of akusala, harmless. Natural yes, but not > harmless. Sama lobha is different from visama lobha in as far as we do not > harm others by sama lobha, but all the same it is accumulated. Ph: Thank you for this important reminder! Accumulated, and not harmless. Natural, yes, but unwise to think it is harmless. Thank you. This is something that will stick with me, I think. I wrote more about it but lost it and now there is sama lobha about taking a bath and going to bed. I will study your elaboration on sila, concentration and panna later. Metta, Phil 46020 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 5/24/05 10:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: It takes enormous subsequent mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probably not to carve out, characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. ====================== What I wrote here is quite confusing. Please replace "probably not to carve out" by "probably, to carve out". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46021 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Tep) - In a message dated 5/25/05 10:27:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Tep > Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati > in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, > try walking meditation. Thanks for the advice, but I really don't think that kind of meditation woud suit me. I used to walk around parks and imagine I was projecting metta at people but I saw through that. Later, I walked around parks aware of the in and out breath. Now I just walk. There is so much going on, all the time. If you rely on "a suppportive environment" to condition sati, what does it say about the rest of the day when you are removed from your supportive condition? I would rather be aware of a lot of evident akusala than be unaware of akusala dressed up like kusala. And I like exercise as well. Walking around in slow motion in the hope of having sati would be pretty silly when I don't even tell nama from rupa! This does not apply to everyone. As I heard from Kh Sujin tonight "it's impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Metta, Phil ====================== There's no need to "walk around in slow motion," though you might find it helpful to not go too quickly. Mainly, just attend primarily to the sensations involved in the act of walking - the touch sensations, the motion, the change in balance and shifting of the body, and along with that note subtle volition as it operates in changing pace and direction. When moving more quickly, attend to overall bodily sensation and posture, and when going at a slower pace, attend more specifically to foot and leg sensations and movements. Whatever else comes up in your awareness, observe it and let it go, easily. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46022 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: Control buddhatrue Hi Phil, Thanks for your responses in the two posts. I will try to briefly give my input to the various issues you have raised: 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested practices. James: I don't think that this is a problem of taking a sutta literally when it shouldn't be; this is more a matter of misinterpreting a sutta (Kind of the same thing but the first results from a particular view and the second results from not paying careful attention to the content). Of course, the practice is the Noble Eightfold Path and most of the suttas describe attainments. However, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like the `Noble disciple' described in the suttas. If we don't strive for greatness we will never achieve it. The monks often asked the Buddha to give a discourse for inspiration, not for instruction of techniques. Therefore, most of the discourses are supposed to be inspirational. 2) We are reading a translator's words. James: Yes, this can be a significant issue. Today I was thinking a bit about the traditional translation of `dukkha' as `suffering' and how that doesn't quite fit the meaning of dukkha. Learning Pali could help, but I believe that that is only effective when one learns Pali to a professional level. Knowing a few Pali words and throwing them here and there seems to create more confusion, in my opinion. 3) This is describing a result, not prescribing a practice. James: I agree, but again this isn't an issue of taking a sutta literally, it is a matter of misinterpretation. The practice is the Noble Eightfold Path and the other descriptions are to be taken as inspiration or guide posts for the dhamma practitioner. Thanks again for the response. Now I will understand more when you speak of taking suttas too literally. Metta, James 46023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It nilovg Hi Howard, welcome back. I was wondering what your experiences were, but you have been thinking on what you wrote below. I read it with interest. Only, I think we cannot find out all these relations by reasoning. As I wrote to Phil about nimitta: what happens now when looking in front, what do we see? We pay immediately attention to the nimitta and details. A text with details or a person with all the details. Nina. op 25-05-2005 18:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > In a message dated 5/24/05 10:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... > writes: > It takes enormous subsequent > mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probabl to carve > out, > characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, > let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. 46024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, Very good you brought up these points for consideration. Useful for many, I think. I also thought of the monk who should see danger in the slightest faults. Try to retreave your lost writings, Lovely you give us this reminder: Please, do this often. Nina. op 25-05-2005 16:49 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Thank you for this important reminder! Accumulated, and not > harmless. Natural, yes, but unwise to think it is harmless. Thank > you. This is something that will stick with me, I think. I wrote > more about it but lost it 46025 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:34am Subject: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi all, I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" and much of its supplementary reading. One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline . I told my counselor this morning that I had a dream last night and a realization while being driven to program that living the way I was, taht is, thinking much about whether to follow this sutta, was, bad. That is, specifically regarding the part that urges one to carry out the family tradition. This, for me, would mean carrying out Judaism at some level or in some form. The sutta is presented in the context of the abstinences of Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood. Now, I have had some reservations about carrying out Judaism, most especially because it does not jibe with what I have learned in my practise. However, as I said, I think talking about how and why I won't carry out Judaism and not following the layperson's code of discipline has been living in a bad way. Now a member of the Sangha has said that similarly to the Vinaya, it has a lot of rules to follow, but it actually makes living easier and simpler, contrary to what you might think. I am willing to give it a go, however, this morning I felt I could be getting serious about this and felt I could be as traditional as when I first started practising vipassana meditation. A few thoughts. What would it look like to carry out Judaism, but follow the Noble Eightfold Path, or keep mindfulness with me all day, at the same time. Practise shouldn't be limited to just one session of sitting meditation a day, and it would look downright self- contradictory if I were to engage in reading Jewish texts and doing prayers that talk about one's soul and all good things coming from God. I do think that people from other traditions or religions may have used this sutta as a guide, to, a heavenly rebirth, which the sutta says will result from adherence to the rules of the discipline. Judaism would fit fine with this, a heavenly rebirth would be wanted in Judaism, too. For me, it would be just a 'good' way to live, following this sutta, with heaven not as the goal but just a favorable rebirth if necessary. The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while doing this seems quite out of synch. I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only way to do this? Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not good relations with. It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder that, but know? So lastly, I wonder if doing work, aside from being idle (which is listed as an evil in this sutta), which for me means computer programming, generates any kamma, and so, if I do it habitually, it will help towards a more fortunate rebirth. It is said in the sutta, "Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things undone, the opportunities for good go past such men." So it seems work is the crux of goodness in this sutta. Is it mere work that can build one a 'shelter from anguish' as is described elsewhere in the texts, and bring about a more fortunate rebirth, or is it just as I might suppose, that doing work is just a central point (a somewhat good thing, but not necessarily good in the sense of generating kamma), for good, for treating others well? I find I am more 'good' to my family when I am doing programming, which I guess makes me more good in general. I really could use some feedback on this matter, especially with the last issue I brought up, because I ought to engage in some habitual good kamma so I don't have to have so much fear of what might come after this life, but be confident and accepting about it. -A.L. (yes that new picture is of me, Spring 2003) P.S. I remember one of my old views, that I simply have computer programming here, and can do this, and could have a computer or something as a deva in the next life, and women around me that are faithful and pretty to see as the Buddha describes what happens in heaven, and everything will be 50x better, more enjoyable. But just that acting wrongly with a woman in this life will cause this not to take place. I don't have the complete picture here, in fact this reminds me of how I used to think of Buddha and his monks observing the Vinaya, but I really don't think much of anymore the past year or two. Thanks much for the help!, A.L. 46026 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:37am Subject: There is a being only when there are clinging aggregates (was Re: Anatta) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: Choosing a post by James to read reminded me of the old days when I used to look forward to reading his posts to see just how excitingly obnoxious he would be! Sigh...it seems those days are gone James: ;-)) Not as exciting now is it: when everyone sounds the same? Phil, you are the main catalyst for the new, polite, boring me- too late for regrets. ;-)) Metta, James 46027 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Rob K had Part of her Book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas separately printed > as Realities and Concepts. A small booklet. If you give me your postal > address in Cairo I can send it, no problem. Thanks for the reminder but I just checked the Zolag web site and found some of the materials. I can download the pdf formats and read the material at my leisure. I also like pdf documents because I can make the text larger. Looks like I have a lot to read this summer! ;-) Metta, James 46028 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:48am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James and Nina - > > Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's > booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to > Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin > Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the > following Website: > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and > other writings of Ajahn Sujin. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep Thanks for this information. I found the material I was looking for. May I ask, have you read the writings of K. Sujin? What have you read? (I am taking an informal survey). Metta, James 46029 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi James - I read her Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and most other e-books at Zolag. Karuna, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi James and Nina - > > > > Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's > > booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to > > Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin > > Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the > > following Website: > > > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > > > James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and > > other writings of Ajahn Sujin. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Tep > > Thanks for this information. I found the material I was looking for. > May I ask, have you read the writings of K. Sujin? What have you > read? (I am taking an informal survey). > > Metta, > James 46030 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 161. (xxxix) By its means they are greedy, or it itself is greedy, or it is just the mere being greedy, thus is it 'greed'. (xl) By its means they are deluded, or it itself is deluded, or it is just the mere being deluded, thus it is 'delusion'. 162. Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. 46031 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Larry, and all > 162. Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, > like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat > put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of > lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead > to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded > as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river > does to the great ocean. This would be a good chance for me to ask some very basic but important questions about craving, clinging and dependent origination that I have never really gotten around to figuring out. What is the difference between craving and clinging? The English connotation is that clinging is after we get something and craving is before, but I guess the Dhamma meaning is different. Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it important to understand tanha? I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and clinging lead to rebirth? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46032 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi James Thanks for the feedback > 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested > practices. > > James: I don't think that this is a problem of taking a sutta > literally when it shouldn't be; this is more a matter of > misinterpreting a sutta Ph: Yes, you're right. I will say "misinterpret" from now on. (Of course, the practice is the Noble > Eightfold Path and most of the suttas describe attainments. However, > there is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like the `Noble disciple' > described in the suttas. If we don't strive for greatness we will > never achieve it. Ph: Still think this is dangerous, because we are conditioned from childhood in the West to strive for greatness, to make something special out of one's life. When this is applied to Dhamma, the result might be beneficial but I think it will often lead more often to being too attached to one's self-identity, which is of course against the point. And I think we should be very aware that the noble disciple is a sotapanna and is really in a completely different league from us. Of course, as you say, it can inspire us to see what some people have achieved - yes, that's important. But being inspired by a sotapanna and imitating/emulating a sotapanna are different things, I think. > The monks often asked the Buddha to give a > discourse for inspiration, not for instruction of techniques. > Therefore, most of the discourses are supposed to be inspirational. Ph: But we are not monks hearing the suttas directly from the Buddha, so the inspiration we can receive is going through so much accumualted ignorance. We should bear this in mind. > > 2) We are reading a translator's words. > > James: Yes, this can be a significant issue. Today I was thinking a > bit about the traditional translation of `dukkha' as `suffering' and > how that doesn't quite fit the meaning of dukkha. Learning Pali could > help, but I believe that that is only effective when one learns Pali > to a professional level. Knowing a few Pali words and throwing them > here and there seems to create more confusion, in my opinion. Ph: Sometimes more confusion, sometimes less. (Take "mana", for instance - "conceit" doesn't get it.) But I would certainly like to be able to know whether a sentence was originally in the imperative or the passive. As in that "well-tamed heart" vs "tame your heart" example I gave. It might not take too much Pali study to be able to differentiate the passive from the imperative. Catch you again on Saturday, James. Metta, Phil p.s I joked about missing the "excitingly obnoxious" James but these rather blandly toned posts are better for us. Like eating brown rice and tofu. More easily digested. 46033 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, who develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with 16 grounds (bases or vatthu -- thanks to Sarah's correction), into 10 groups (I - X). Section i and Section ii describe the knowledges in I and II. Section iii deals with the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing (vodaana-naana) in III, and covers paragraphs 15 through 168. However, most of these paragraphs are based on the paragraphs 19 - 23. These "core" paragraphs are presented below and, because of their importance, they should be studied very carefully so that the remaining material may be clearly understood. As usual all the Pali words I could find are inserted in parentheses behind their corresponding English translation. I want to acknowledge the able help from Dr. Han Tun who has provided me with the Pali words that are not listed in the INDEX section of the book (The Path of Discrimination), for example: Disquieted = saaraddha; perturbed= injita; excited = phandita; hope for = patikankhati nikanti; fatigued = mucchita, shakable = vikampitattaa; distraction = vikkhepa; slack= lina; over-exerted (atipaggahita); enticed (abhinata); repelled (apanata) . --------------------------------------------------------- Section iii 15. What are the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing (vodaana- naana)? (1) Cognizance(citta) that runs after the past [breaths] is attacked by distraction: by avoiding that he concentrates it in one place, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (2) Cognizance that looks to the future [breaths] is shakable (vikampitattaa): by avoiding that he composes it there, thus also cognizance does not become distracted. (3) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja): by exerting it he abandons indolence, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (4) Over-exerted(atipaggahita) cognizance is attacked by agitation (uddhacca): by exerting it he abandons indolence, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (5) Enticed(abhinata) cognizance is attacked by greed(raaga): by being fully aware of that he abandons greed, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (6) Repelled(apanata) cognizance is attacked by ill-will (vyaapaada): by being fully aware of that he abandons ill-will, thus cognizance does not become distracted. In these six aspects cognizance becomes purified and bright and arrives at the unities. 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in the act of giving], (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha nimitta) [in concentration], (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of fall [in insight], (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the cahracteristic of fall belongs to those practising insight. The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble persons (ariya). 18. In these four instances cognizance arrived at unity (11) enters into purification of the way [PTS vol. i, p. 167, 1.20 read patipadaavisuddhipakkhantam. The whole of this passage is commented on in Ch. IV of the Vism (pp. 148-9)] (12) is intensified in equanimity(upekkhaa), (13) is satisfied by knowledge. * 19. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the first jhana? Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. 20. Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: (i) cognizance is purified of obstructions to that [jhana]; (ii) because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta); (iii) because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state. And in that cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way (patipadaa-visuddhi) is the beginning of the first jhana. These are the three characteristics of the beginning. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the beginning, which possesses [three] characteristics. 21. Of the first jhana intensification of equanimity is the middle: how many characteristics has the middle? The middle has three characteristics: (iv) he looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified; (v) he looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity; (vi) he looks on with equanimity at the establishment of unity. And in that he [now] looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity(samatha) and looks on with equanimity(upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity(ekatta), that intensification of equanimity is the middle of the first jhana. These are three characteristics of the middle. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the middle, which possesses [three] characteristics. 22. Of the first jhana encouragement is the end: how many characteristics has the end? The end has four characteristics: (vii) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas (dhamma) arisen therein; (viii) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function (rasa = taste); (ix) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy(viriya) was effective; (x) encouragement in the sense of repetition; are the encouragement in the end of the first jhana. These are the four characteristics of the end. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the end, which possesses [four] characteristics. 23. Cognizance that has reached the triple cycle [of beginning, middle and end] thus and is good in the three ways and possesses the ten characteristics also possesses [the five jhana factors of] applied- thought (vitakka) and sustained-thought(vicara) and happiness(piti) and pleasure(sukkha) and steadiness(adhitthaana) as well as [the five faculties and powers of] faith(saddha) and energy(viriya) and mindfulness(sati) and concentration(samadhi) and understanding (panna). ----------------------------------- Tep's Notes: for the remaining paragraphs the "first jhana" is replaced by the second jhana through the fourth jhana, by each of the four immaterial attainments, by each of the 18 principal insights, and by each of the four paths (ariya-magga). Let us discuss the above core paragraphs based on the first jhana in a separate post. Respectfully yours, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG members - > > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from > paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > > 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, > That loves the future, that is slack, > Over-exerted, or enticed, > Or repelled, is unconcentrated. > These six defects in concentration > Based upon mindfulness of breathing > Are such that when they stain his thought > He knows not higher cognizance. > > 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle > and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and > end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both > his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- > breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too > long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still > shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his > body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and > his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > > 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing > Is undeveloped, unperfected, > Finds perturbation of his body > Likewise of his cognizance, > He is then excited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > One whose mindfulness of breathing > Has been developed and perfected, > Quits perturbation of his body > And likewise of his cognizance, > He is unexcited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > > 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those > hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by > mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen > imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations > (samodhaana). > > [End of Section ii] > 46034 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Howard Thanks for the feedback. Mainly, just attend primarily to the > sensations involved in the act of walking - the touch sensations, the motion, the > change in balance and shifting of the body, and along with that note subtle > volition as it operates in changing pace and direction. When moving more quickly, > attend to overall bodily sensation and posture, and when going at a slower pace, > attend more specifically to foot and leg sensations and movements. Whatever > else comes up in your awareness, observe it and let it go, easily. > You explain this very well, thanks. Today when I was going for my walk, your post came to mind in a very unforced way. I became aware of sensations, and breath. At first it was quite spontaneous. Unfortunately, I got all involved in thinking about what I was doing and assigning too much importance to it. That has always been my problem with meditation. "Now I'm going to meditate!" There's so much self involved for me. (For me - I don't know about others.) But maybe someday this sort of thing will arise more spontaneously, rooted in alobha and amoha rather than the greed and ignorance that arise now when I try to meditate, and there will be benefit from it. We'll see what we see. For the time being, it is definitely self trying to get rid of self, and that's something I'm going to steer clear of as much as possible. Thanks again. And to Tep. It was another good example for me of how posts I read at DSG can be very helpful conditioning factors. Metta, Phil 46035 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Hi Phil, Here are some answers taken mostly from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Phil: "What is the difference between craving and clinging? The English connotation is that clinging is after we get something and craving is before, but I guess the Dhamma meaning is different." Larry: 3 kinds of tanha: sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence (all conditioned by feeling, esp. pleasant feeling). 4 kinds of upadana: sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to mere rules and ritual, clinging to personality belief. Clinging is "an intensified degree of craving". Synonyms: tanha, lobha, raga. " 'Clinging' is the common rendering for upadana, though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'." My opinion: notice how clinging has to do with belief; I would take this to be a distinguishing characteristic of clinging; this is precisely where the world of "I", "me", and "my" arises whenever it arises; maybe we can view these three as 'intensified desire'. Phil: "Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it important to understand tanha?" Larry: Tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering (dukkha). Phil: "I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and clinging lead to rebirth?" Larry: Dependent origination is daily life, except daily life isn't just feeling and desire; although it mostly is. Larry ------------------------ Here is the def. of tanha from the "Buddhist Dictionary": [Maybe Nina or Htoo could explain "ta.nhaa-vicarita" (thought-channels of craving).] tanhá: (lit. 'thirst'): 'craving', is the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (káma-tanhá), the craving for existence (bhava-tanhá), the craving for non-existence (vibhava-tanhá)'' (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the dependent origination (paticcasamuppáda, q.v.). Cf. sacca. Corresponding to the 6 sense-objects, there are 6 kinds of craving craving for visible objects, for sounds, odours, tastes, bodily impressions, mental impressions (rúpa-, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, photthabba-, dhamma-tanhá). (M. 9; D. 15) Corresponding to the 3-fold existence, there are 3 kinds: craving for sensual existence (káma-tanhá), for fine-material existence (rúpa-tanhá), for immaterial existence (arúpa-tanhá). (D. 33) There are 18 'thought-channels of craving' (tanhá-vicarita) induced internally, and 18 induced externally; and as occurring in past, present and future, they total 108; see A. IV, 199; Vibh., Ch. 17 (Khuddakavatthu-Vibhanga). According to the dependent origination, craving is conditioned by feeling; on this see D. 22 (section on the 2nd Truth). Of craving for existence (bhava-tanhá ) it is said (A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply." - Craving for existence and ignorance are called "the outstanding causes that lead to happy and unhappy destinies (courses of existence)" (s. Vis.M. XVII, 36-42). The most frequent synonyms of tanhá are rága (q.v.) and lobha (s. múla). 46036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/25/05 11:41:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: You explain this very well, thanks. Today when I was going for my walk, your post came to mind in a very unforced way. I became aware of sensations, and breath. At first it was quite spontaneous. Unfortunately, I got all involved in thinking about what I was doing and assigning too much importance to it. That has always been my problem with meditation. "Now I'm going to meditate!" There's so much self involved for me. (For me - I don't know about others.) --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's everbody's problem - actually, one of many problems! ;-) But as the Buddha and others have wisely stated, patience is a virtue. --------------------------------------------- But maybe someday this sort of thing will arise more spontaneously, rooted in alobha and amoha rather than the greed and ignorance that arise now when I try to meditate, and there will be benefit from it. We'll see what we see. For the time being, it is definitely self trying to get rid of self, and that's something I'm going to steer clear of as much as possible. ------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin where we are, not where we would hope to be. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46037 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 9:29pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Larry (and Howard at the end) Thanks! > Larry: 3 kinds of tanha: sensual craving, craving for existence, > craving for non-existence (all conditioned by feeling, esp. pleasant > feeling). Ph: Ok, so as in the sutta where it says when a monk doesn't understand feeling, something or other results, it is craving. > > 4 kinds of upadana: sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to > mere rules and ritual, clinging to personality belief. Clinging is "an > intensified degree of craving". Synonyms: tanha, lobha, raga. " > 'Clinging' is the common rendering for upadana, though 'grasping' would > come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'." > > My opinion: notice how clinging has to do with belief; I would take this > to be a distinguishing characteristic of clinging; this is precisely > where the world of "I", "me", and "my" arises whenever it arises; Ph: So as in the post by James I re-posted yesterday, it is through this clinging that the clinging aggregates come to be, i.e how a being comes to be. I would think though that clinging mostly happens at a level below conscious belief. Sensuous clinging must be more prevalent than the other three, I would thing. All that sama lobha during the day - every time we shift in the seat to be more comfortable, etc. That would be a form of sensuous clinging. > maybe > we can view these three as 'intensified desire' Ph: Ok, I guess I was wrong above - shifting in the seat to be more comfortable isn't intense. And the dictionary above says clinging is an intensified form of craving. This is still confusing to me, because khandas are always clinging, but rarely in what seems to be an intense way. > Phil: "Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it > important to understand tanha?" > > Larry: Tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering (dukkha). Ph: If clinging is a "more intense degree of craving", is it the cause of a more intense form of dukkha? A more prominent form of dukkha? Please feel free to disregard this question. I just ask it off the top of my head. Maybe it is useful - probably not. > Phil: "I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their > roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in > daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and > clinging lead to rebirth?" > > Larry: Dependent origination is daily life, except daily life isn't just > feeling and desire; although it mostly is. Ph: Thanks. Well said. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks Howard for that "we start where we are, not where we want to be." Interesting - that'll stick with me, though I'm not sure I agree. There's so much ignorance where I am now that I think starting a formal practice of any kind would just be splashing around in the mud. But maybe not. You could be right. I am keeping an open mind about meditation. 46038 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 10:08pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Andrew L, If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. The Dhamma is always about understanding the present reality and never about wanting to change it. Therefore, people who follow the Dhamma correctly are (generally speaking) unlikely to undertake dramatic changes in lifestyle. ------------------------------------ A: > The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while doing this seems quite out of synch. ------------------------------------- Are you going to practise the Buddha's teaching the way the ancient commentators understood it, or the way modern commentators have understood it? In the former way, you can continue a normal, unremarkable, lifestyle - provided only that you set aside some time for learning the Dhamma. However, if you are going to follow modern-day gurus - who teach things that were never in the Tipitaka - then daily life will be disrupted. ----------------------------------------------- A: > I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only way to do this? -------=---------------------------------------- If you are naturally inclined towards carrying on the family tradition (or any other normal tradition), then why not? On the other hand, if you find your lifestyle to be unnatural and burdensome, then you will naturally, and effortlessly, seek out something different. ----------------------- A: > Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not good relations with. ------------------------ There is no need to upset your father - any more than there is need for a spiritual practice outside of normal daily life. It is worth repeating: according to the ancient texts, the Buddha's teaching is all about understanding the way things are - it is not about making things the way they aren't. --------------------------------- A: > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder that, but know? ---------------------------------- You wouldn't be the first person to 'not know.' How many of us (including myself) have mucked up their lives by trying to be a good Buddhist? It doesn't work that way. I proved it. If you take a fool out of his city office and his suburban brick-veneer, and put him in a one-room shack with a veggie garden, what do you get? You get a fool in a shack with a garden. Ken H :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" > and much > of its supplementary reading. > > One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share > is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline 46039 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, S: We were discussing any textual references for the custom of ‘pouring water’ and I mentioned Tirokudda Sutta and commentary. I believe the following verses are often quoted during such services as the sharing of merit with the departed: 1.Tirokudda Sutta (The Without-the-Walls Discourse), Khuddakapaatha, (PTS-~Naa.namoli transl) “As water showered on the hill Flows down to reach the hollow vale, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin. As river-beds when full can bear The water down to fill the sea, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin.” ... Comy note: “Here is their meaning. Just as (yathaa), when on the hill (unnamed), on dry land, on a high piece of ground, rain is showered down (abhiva.t.tha’m) by clouds, the water (udaka’m) flows down (pavattati) to reach the hollow vale (ninna’m), flows, goes to, reaches, any hollow, low-lying piece of ground; so (evam eva) the giving of a gift given (dinna’m) from here (ito) can serve (upakappati) – the meaning is, becomes generated, manifested, for – the ghosts of the departed kin (petaana’m); since the ghost world is like the hollow place for the water to flow down to, and the service of the almsgiving is like the water’s flowing down, according as it is said ‘That is the place, and an almsgiving serves him while he remains there’. “And just as (yathaa), with the confluence of cascades and springs, rills and rivulets, pools and meres, the great rivers, the river-beds (vaarivahaa) when they are full (puuraa), can bear the water down to fill the sea (saagaram paripuurenti), so giving given here can serve the ghosts of the departed kin in the way already stated.” ***** 2.I also recall that when King Bimbisara presented the Bamboo Grove to the Buddha, he poured water over the Buddha’s hands. Possibly one concerning Anathapindika too, but no references for now. ***** 3.Also in AN, Bk of 8s, ‘On Householders’ (Hare, PTS transl) A man is about to become a bhikkhu and tells his four wives that they may either enjoy the wealth he leaves, go to their own relations or be ‘given’ to a new husband of their choice. The eldest wife requests a certain man and her former husband takes his wife ‘by the left hand and holding the waterpot in my right’, he ‘cleansed* that man (by an act of dedication.)’ *Note: “o.nojesi’n; see Q of M ii, 45;Mil 236; Vin 1 39. Comy on this word in the next sutta observes: he poured water on their hands and gave her. This ceremony is still that used at a Buddhist marriage in Ceylon.” ***** 4."Transference of Merit in Ceylonese Buddhism",G. P. Malalasekera “On the pressing invitation of the king, Mahinda and his companions made their residence in the royal pavilion of the Mahameghavana which was "neither too far nor too near the city." When the king came to know that the guests liked this place, he offered the Mahameghavana to the Sangha, pouring water from a vase over the hands of Mahinda signifying the gift being offered and accepted. This gift expressed in a tangible and visible form the inner-religious devotion of the king and assured the material security necessary for the spiritual life of the monks. Mahinda, therefore, made in public the most significant announcement that Buddhism would be established in Sri Lanka.” From the Mahavamasa (PTS,’the Great Cronicle of Ceylon’) the quote Malalasekera is referring to here: “ ‘It is well,’ said the kind, and taking a splendid vase he poured water (in token) of giving, over the hand of the thera Mahinda with the words: ‘This Mahaanegha-park do I give to the brotherhood.’ “As the water fell on the ground, the great earth quaked. And the protector of the earth asked the (thera): ‘Wherefore does the earth quake?’ And he replied: ‘Because the doctrine is (from henceforth) founded in the island.’” ***** I know this latter one is not a sutta quote, but you may find it of interest too. I’m sure there are others, but that’s all I can think of for now. Metta, Sarah p.s Others may like to check messages in ‘Sharing of Merit’ in U.P. If anyone has further 'pouring of water' refs such as the ones involving K.Bimbisara or Anathapindika, pls share! ============================================ ====== 46040 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Nina), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti > and great great somanassa'. > > I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. ... S: I agree it wasn’t a very good example to give, even if technically correct,. Actually it’s quite interesting now I look at the texts. I was thinking of this passage from the Nina’s book. “As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. **** S: I was rushing before when I sent you several posts and had never checked these refs she gives. You’ll find them interesting so let me quote one for you here, going back a step: Vism XX1, 111: [THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH’S FACTORS, ETC] (Vism caps): “This knowledge of equanimity about formations governs the fact that the meditator keeps apart. It furthermore governs the difference in the [number of the] noble path’s enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, the mode of progress, and the kind of liberation. For while some elders say that it is the jhana used as the basis for insight [leading to emergence] that governs the difference in the [number of] enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, and some say that it is the aggregates made the object of insight that govern it, and some say that it is the personal bent that governs it, yet it is only this preliminary insight and insight leading to emergence that should be understood to govern it in their doctrine. “To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy [piiti] and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy.” ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana (equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== 46041 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with the discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin asked: > Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and > panna? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand > what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata > ditthi as if it is not there. =Sukinder: :-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement. ============================== > Sukin continued to ask: > Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no > matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the > path be walked upon? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. > > There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or > whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and > such dhamma. =Sukinder: Maybe you could answer my question regardless of any `subtle sassata ditthi' that may be apparent in my statement? And if I continue to project any sassata ditthi in our discussions, you can also explain more? ============================== Htoo: > I just simply said that > > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 46042 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Discussion continued: ========================== > S=> > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. > ========================= > Htoo: > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > following. =Sukinder: Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there is `following'. This may happen very rarely, but it is better than mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or even any level of kusala. And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he is deluding himself. Metta, Sukinder 46043 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion. ============================ > Htoo: > > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > > he knows it arises'. > > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. > > S=> > The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Of course, you can. =Sukinder: ?? You mean `me' or the `ripe'? ============================= > Sukin: > Only the Anagami doesn't. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Why? =Sukinder: No conditions? ============================= > Sukin: > But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being > addressed to the so called `ripe', > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? =Sukinder: No. But the Buddha was speaking to the ripe, wasn't he? ============================= > Sukin: > > We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may > not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is > a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not > `doing'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) =Sukinder: Does this mean you agree? If so, to what extent? ============================= > Sukin: > One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's > teachings'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you never do it? =Sukinder: Intention arises with each citta. My concern mostly is only to `understand' what is said about the Dhamma. I don't presume that it will happen, though this is one condition for pariyatti, and when this does arise, it is accompanied by a level of sati. But even if there is in fact wrong understanding and I go away with the illusion of `knowing', still it is not from any presumption before hand about the activity. There is no control over how the words are presented and which phrase will condition what. ================================ > Sukin: > Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about > and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship > between pariyatti and patipatti. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If > one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence > is the same. =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. =========================== > Sukin: > If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can > be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. > However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or > satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the > corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :D =Sukinder: :-) Does this mean agreeing? ============================== Htoo: > Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. =Sukinder: Any idea of a `self' having to do something in order that satipatthana will arise. Metta, Sukinder 46044 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Your summarised point 8: > > 8. #45326 – on `first-hand objects' referring to the 7 > rupas experienced > thr' the sense doors. I don't think we can say that other > rupas > experienced through the mind-door only are not `first-hand'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The object that comes first is first-hand object. 7 rupas serve as > 1st- > hand objects. > > In a life there are sense-door consciousness and mind-door > consciousness. > > Mind-door consciousness receive sense-door consciousness as > sense-door > consciousness know. Here eye, ear, nose, tongue, body receive the > object first. But the mind receives it at a later time. ... S: Agreed so far....:) .... > > Other rupa experienced through mind door are > > 1. 5 panca pasada rupas > > These are only known after learning. .... S: I don't understand your comment. Does this mean the cittas of a baby or animal do not experience pasada rupas or subtle rupas because they haven't been learned? Surely the function of sati is to be aware of what is being experienced by citta anyway, not to 'learn' to have new dhammas being experienced. The same as with the 7 sense-door rupas....they arise and fall and are experienced regardless of any sati. ... > > 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters ... S: Like very subtle rupas such as masculinity and femininity...they're there arising and falling and being experienced from time to time, but who knows? ... > > Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it’s an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: “Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta.” **** S: I think your ‘first-hand’ and ‘second-hand’ may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear, so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....’pali basics for dummies’:). ============================================= 46045 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! to #45413 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah and interested members, > > You wrote: > > #45413 – you say `whether there are silent or not akusala > always has a > mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst." It's true that > mind-door > cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as > killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? > Humans, insects etc – see U.P. `killing'. It always come > back to the > cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large > animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about > it > afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) > ---------------- > Htoo: > > Killing with wrong view? Killing is mostly done by one of 2 dosa mula > citta. Ditthi or wrong view normally does not invlove in killing > until and unless the killing is also done with lobha. > > How will you say? ... S: I'll say, you're right. Killing is usually with dosa. However, it can be with lobha, such as killing for sacrifice. I was merely responding to Phil's question in my comment that 'with wrong view' is worse. Also, even though the actual moments of killing are usually with dosa, there may well be lobha with or without wrong view motivating it in advance. How will you say? metta, Sarah ======== 46046 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: I said 'usually untrue words'. When kamma are summerised they > come under musaavaada. When they are spread out there are 4 vaci- > kamma. ... S: I don't think we can put all wrong speech under the 'umbrella' of musaavada. For example, harsh speech or slander are not musaavada. Atth., Courses of Immoral Action: " 'Lying'(musaavada) is applied to the effort of the body and speech, on the part of one who is deceitful, to destroy the good of others. The volition setting up the bodily and vocal effort to deceive, with the intention of cheating others, is termed 'false speech.'........It is more or less an offence according as the welfare destroyed is greater or smaller...." .... > > Example harsh word or rude word is very very frequently used > by 'actors of western films'. I would not write the word here. > Sometimes directness conveys the necessary meaning but sometimes > directness hurts some certain person who do not have kind heart. > > When that word appears, is it true or not? Not true. Then this is > musaavaada as well. ... S: Last time I quoted from the Atth the passage indicating that harsh words cannot be measured by the language or even tone. "But as words are not harsh if the heart be tender, so are they not gentle, just because speech is soft". So I don't think your example is a very apt one - there is no 'entirely harsh volition....stabbing another as with a mortal wound' when the actor performs his role. It's like working with difficult teenage boys....sometimes one has to speak strongly, I assure you, to get results:). Also, your example wouldn't meet the definition of musaavaada above -- no intention to 'destroy the good of others' and no 'welfare destroyed'. .... > That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under > musaavaada. ... S: I'd like to see a reference for this. Metta, Sarah ======== 46047 From: cosmique Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:09am Subject: the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka cosmique1000 Dear friends, I assume some of you heard of the debate between a Christian missionary and a Buddhist monk that took place in Sri Lanka in the 19th century. Unexpectedly for Christians who believed that their religion was a great deal more logical than "the Asian superstition" their spokesman was completely defeated by his Buddhist opponent. I heard that copies of the debate were available from any Buddhist bookshop in Sri Lanka. Could anyone who knows tell me the title of the debate or a book that might possibly contain it? I am going to Sri Lanka in a month time and, of course, would like to get a copy of it. Thanks in advance. with maha metta, May Triple Gem bless everyone! cosmique 46048 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I thought you made some good points in your post and I mostly followed what you were saying. I think that all the 'intricate...complexity' is there already in the visible objects otherwise it would be impossible to recognise the patterns, colours, details and so on according to sanna which has been marking and learning about these objects since birth. So citta already 'knows' or experiences it all.... the Atthasalini is still open here - "From kamma and form, form and perceptions come, perceptions differentiation cause In things, as 'This is woman,' 'This is man'." " 'O lad, beings have kamma as their property, they are its heirs, are originated by it, are its kind, are sheltered by it. Kamma divides beings into low and exalted. by this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind (citta) to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only. "Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece...." The task of awareness is merely to be aware of the dhamma which is seen just as it is and for panna to know it. Hence the analogy we started off with in Vism to the ways citta, sanna and panna know the object. Sanna was like the child who saw and marked the coin but without any knowledge about its use or value, citta was like the villager who knew about its use, value and other details, but still knew nothing about whether it was genuine. Panna was like the money-changer who knew all the details, including whether it was genuine and so on. --- upasaka@... wrote: > My point, then, is not to be too quick > to > turn up our noses at the cognitive, "indirect" processing that is in > constant > operation. Without it, we would each be much like what David Kalupahana, > quoting > William James, likes to call a sessile sea anemone. .... S: :-). The cognitive processing has always been and will always be in operation. It too, can be known for what it is, just like the cittas involved when there is any turning up of our noses:). I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 I think we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to seeing, visible object and conceptualising, even though we use different language. Good to see you back, Howard. Htoo's really taken your no 1 spot :/ Metta, Sarah ====== 46049 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > THERE IS NO MENTION OF SITTING MEDITATION, WALKING MEDITATION BY THE > BUDDHA. :-)) > > Yes. The Buddha did not say 'sitting meditation' 'walking > meditation'. The Buddha just preached how to do 'satipatthaana'. > > Among many methods, The Buddha did say that > > 'the typical bhikkhu sits by folding lower part of the body putting > straight upper part of the body and put the mind straight forward' > > 'when going, he knows he goes'. ... S: He didn’t say ‘sit’ or ‘walk’ or ‘go to the forest’. When going, when you are in the forest, when you go home, when you sit at the computer...wherever you are, develop satipatthana. And with regard to your other comments (to Tep), I haven’t seen any denying of the need to develop panna and sati here. Understanding more about dhammas, the objects of satipatthana and about sati and panna and all these dhammas as being anatta doesn’t lead to any denial of the importance and urgency of the development of satipatthana. Quite the contrary. However, it is with the understanding of conditioned dhammas which you write about in your other threads. I agree with your comments about ekaayano (one way) too. ... > Htoo: > > 1. first breathing is directed as primary object. Because this is > quite evident to all breathing-beings<...> > 2. one at any time is in a specific posture. No doubt. Would you deny > this? The Buddha did not encourage the idea of postures. But the > instructions are related to postures. Because seeing of these > postures may help seeing of rupa and then naama. ... S: How can there be any ‘seeing of these postures’? What is seen again? Please give the answer loudly for all to hear:). How are postures known, Htoo? By which door-way? What are the conditions for being aware of visible object or seeing consciousness? Is ‘seeing postures’ one? .... > > You are always always in a specific posture. And that posture is not > static and it has to be changed to another one. All these changing > processes have to be seen. ... S: In reality, what is ‘specific posture’? .... > > 3. Apart from 4 major postures, there are many changing movements > inside the body like stretching, bending, looking straight, looking > elsewhere, holding something etc. .... S: Are these concepts or realities? Please give the answer loudly again:). > > The instructions are instruction and they are not to be analysed by > paramattha dhamma. .... S: When the Buddha used conventional terms, did he or did he not have any understanding of the paramattha dhammas involved? What about the bhikkhus who listened and became enlightened? Did they take ‘postures’ for realities or did they understand that these were conventional terms being used as short-hand to represent many different dhammas ...? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Ananda in his final day of sotapanhood meditated a lot. He walked. He > sat. He stood. And finally he lied down. ... S: Right, he didn’t just stay sitting at the root of any tree. .... > > The Buddha did not say 'this is the best way' 'this is the worst way' > in mahasatipatthana sutta. But what The Buddha said in > mahasatipatthana sutta is > > 'aranna gato vaa, rukkha mula gato vaa, sunnagaara gato vaa nissidati' > > aranna = forest, wood > gato = having gone > vaa = or > rukkha = tree > mula = root, rukkhamula_foot of tree > sunnagaara = unoccupied place or building > nissidat = sit .... S: Yes, ‘having gone to the forest....’, not ‘go to the forest..’. Did he use this expression when speaking to lay people? Did he use it when speaking to all bhikkhus? Did he use it to Ananda all the time? Might he not say to us: ‘having gone to the swimming pool......school with your kids......theatre.......computer to check messages.....brisk walk in the park.......develop samatha and vipassana bhavana/ satipatthana. ‘ There is only ever the present moment whether here or there, so if there is no awareness and understanding right now of whatever dhamma is conditioned already to appear, then satipatthana cannot develop. Forget about the root of the tree, Htoo:-). Metta, Sarah p.s ‘Dispeller’ 1589: “so ara~n~nagato vaa (‘he, having gone to the forest’): this indicates that he is provided with an abode of the aforesaid kind.” Mind you, we can help you find some nice forests when you come to Hong Kong....:). ====== 46050 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, last one in this batch: --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: A characteristic (lakkhana) of reality. Not a concept. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > So you think it is like you explained in Citta A-Citta B business. ... S: No, this is a different question....Anatta is the nature or characteristic of all dhammas regardless of which process they arise or don't arise in etc. Metta, Sarah ======== 46051 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:13am Subject: Pali basis (02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 Pali letters and 8 vowels. 33 letters are a) K, Kh, G, Gh, `N When these letter are combined with a vowel like 'a' they will become ka, kha, ga, gha, `na Ka is unvoiced sound when ga is voiced sound. If you say 'ka' and ga' alternatively for many time you will notice that there is a difference in voicing. 'Ga' invloves voice-box's activity or laryngeal action when 'ka' does not. Ka and kha are similar. But you will notice the difference when you place your palm of hand in front of the mouth and say repeatedly 'ka' and 'kha' alternatively. Kha will cause a gush of wind coming out of the mouth as evident by sensing palm. `N is just a nasalised sound. When there is a disease causing weakness of tissue of speaking then 'ka' will become '`na' when 'ka' is tried to say. b) C, Ch, J, Jh, ~N Ca, cha, ja, jha, ~n The same applies here like in ka, kha, ga, gha, and `na. c) .T, .Th, .D, .Dh, .N .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .n The same as above. d) T, Th, D, Dh, N Ta, tha, da, dha, n The same as above. But there is a bit similarity between c) and d) .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .na cause the mouth in the position of 'O' whereas ta, tha, da, dha, na are pronounced with wide-open mouth. e) P, Ph, B, Bh, M Pa, pha, ba, bha, m The same as a), b), c), d). f) Y, R, L, V, S g) H, .L, .m There is no initial letter for '.m'. It is called niggahitta. Example of '.m' is kamma = ka.m + ma ( k + a + .m + m + a ) There are 8 vowels. They are 1) a as in case of 'ca' 'na' 2) aa as in case of 'vaa' 3) i as in case of 'ti' 'pi' 4) ii as in case of 'dii' in Diigha 5) u as in case of 'nu' of 'anupassanaa' 6) uu as in case of 'muu' in muula 7) e as in case of 'de' in deva 8) o as in case of 'do' in dosa Regarding vowel sounding an example of a typical word 'K' will be used here. ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, ko ka.m kakka, kakkha, kagga, kaggha, ka`nka kacca, kaccha, kajja, kajjha, ka~nna ka.tta, ka.ttha, ka.dda, ka.ddha, ka.nna katta, kattha, kadda, kaddha, kanna kappa, kappha, kabba, kabbha, kamma kitta, kinna kutta, kunna ka~nta, ka~ntha, ka~nda, ka~ndha ka.n.ta, ka.n.tha, ka.n.da, ka.ndha kanta, kantha, kanda, kandha kampa, kampha, kamba, kambha keyya, kalla, kva, [tan]ha With Metta, Htoo Naing 46052 From: dhammanando@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: question on seeking permission from parents dhammanando_... Dear Ken O., > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a > monk A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either > one will do? Permission from both parents is needed. The Mahaavagga states: na, bhikkhave, ananu~n~naato maataapituuhi putto pabbaajetabbo. Yo pabbaajeyya, aapatti dukka.tassa. "Monks, a son must not be given the going forth without permission from his mother and father. Should one do so, it is an offence of wrong-doing." -- Vin. i. 83 The Atthakathaa states: sace dve atthi, dvepi aapucchitabbaa. "If both exist [i.e. are alive], then leave must be obtained from both." -- VinA. v. 1011 But there are quite a number of exceptions given in the Vinaya Atthakatha. Below I have appended a translation of it. > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in > the family. If the family has a few children, then as long > as there are some children not ordained, one of them who > wished to be obtained, dont need the parent permission. I think your friend has been misinformed, or perhaps what he heard concerns the interpretation of the Chinese Dharmagupta tradition. The Atthakathaa does offer a few loopholes (I particularly like the one about the spoilt kid!), but none of them come close to what your friend is describing. Tomorrow I will be going to Lamphun for a fortnight, so I won't be able to answer any further questions till I get back. Best wishes, Dhammanando ____________________________ A quick and rough translation of Buddhaghosa's explanation of the phrase, "without permission from his mother and father" (VinA. v. 1011-12) Here, the phrase "from his mother and father" was said in regard to the man and woman who conceived him. If both are living, then leave must be obtained from both of them. If the father or mother is deceased, then leave must be obtained from [the parent] who is still living. Even if they have themselves gone forth, leave must still be obtained from them. * * * * When obtaining leave, he may either go and obtain it himself, or may send another person, saying to him, "Go to my mother and father and having obtained their leave come back." * * * * If he says, "I am one who has obtained permission," he may be given the going forth if it is believable. * * * * A father has himself gone forth and wishes his son to go forth; having obtained leave of the mother, let him go forth; or, a mother wishes her daughter to go forth; having obtained leave of the father, let her go forth. * * * * A father, not concerned for the welfare of his wife and son, runs away. The mother gives her son to some monks, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "He has run away to disport himself." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth. A mother has run away with some man or other. The father gives [his son to some monks, saying], "Let him go forth." The principle in this case is just the same as above. The Kurundii* states: 'A father is absent. The mother gives her son permission, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "I shall be responsible for whatever is due to you from the father." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth.' [* Kurundii: the Sinhalese commentary most frequently cited by Buddhaghosa as the source of his Vinaya exegesis.] * * * * The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth without having obtained their leave there is no offence. They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father", and with respect to these the principle is just the same as above. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father. * * * * Even if he be a king, he must still obtain leave before being given the going forth. * * * * Being permitted by his mother and father, he goes forth, but [later] reverts [to being a householder]. Even if he goes forth and reverts seven times, on each occasion that he comes [to go forth] again he must obtain leave [from his mother and father] before he may be given the going forth. * * * * If [his mother and father] say: "This [son of ours], having reverted and come home, does not do any work for us; having gone forth he will not fulfil his duty to you; there is no point in him obtaining leave; whenever he comes to you, just give him the going forth." When [a son] has been disowned in this way, it is suitable for him to be given the going forth again without even obtaining leave. * * * * He who when only in his childhood had been given away [by his mother and father, saying], "This is a gift for you; give him the going forth whenever you want," may be given the going forth whenever he comes [to ask for it], without even obtaining leave. But [a mother and father], having given permission [to their son] when he was only in his childhood, afterwards, when he has reached maturity, withdraw their permission; he must not be given the going forth without obtaining leave. * * * * An only son, after quarrelling with his mother and father, comes [to the sangha, saying], "Let me go forth." Upon being told, "Come back after you have obtained leave," he says, "I'm not going! If you don't let me go forth, I shall burn down your monastery, or stab you with a sword, or cause loss to your relatives and supporters by cutting down the plants in their gardens, or kill myself by jumping from a tree, or join a gang of robbers, or go to another country." It is suitable to let him go forth in order to safeguard life. If his mother and father then come and say, "Why did you let our son go forth?" they should be informed of the reason for it, saying, "We let him go forth in order to safeguard life. You may confirm this with your son." * * * * Then, [one saying] "I shall jump from a tree," has climbed up and is about to let go with his hands and feet. It is suitable to let him go forth. * * * * An only son, having gone to another country, requests the going forth. If he had obtained leave before departing, he may be given the going forth. If he had not obtained leave, having sent a young monk to get [the parents] to give their leave, he may be given the going forth. If it is a very distant country, it is suitable to just give him the going forth and then send him with other bhikkhus to inform [the parents]. But the Kurundii states: 'if [the country] is far away and the way to it is [across] a great wilderness (or desert), it is suitable to give him the going forth, [thinking], "having gone there [later] we shall obtain leave [of the parents]."' * * * * If a mother and father have many sons and speak thus: "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of these boys you choose," then having examined the boys, he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. If an entire [extended] family or an entire village is given permission [by someone, saying], "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of the boys in this family or this village you choose," he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. * * * * 46053 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: Anyone can join and enjoy htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > We had a discussion about this a few years ago on DSG. > > As I remember it the Netti does say that it is better to have tanha > for nibbana than to have tanha for say woman. The commentary > explains that all tanha is akusala but some is not as bad as others.. > > We can see that almost all Buddhists have so much desire for quick > knowledge, it is inevitable that it is like this in the beginning > because tanha is all that wordlings know, it is conditioned to arise. > > Tanha can never show us the right way, but it could be a condition > to study Dhamma texts: and so we can see how akusala can be a > suporting condition for kusala to arise. > My opinion though is that unless tanha is seen (early on) as been > aksuala, that most people will try top develop the path with tanha > and avijja - and that is impossible. > > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your reply. I think 'Upanisa sutta' also include about 'wanting to be free from suffering' and 'arising of faith'. I like your examples. Examples are beautiful cars and beautiful women. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46054 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Matheesha wrote to Htoo: Matheesha: Hi Htoo, Thanks for that detailed explanation. H:> Contact is already included when cakkhuvinnana arises. > Again in naama-ruupa cakkhuppasaada is also included. So there is > no delay in 'naama-ruupa paccaya salaayatanaa' and also no delay > in 'salaayatana paccayaa phasso'. This is also right for 'phassa > paccayaa vedanaa'. M: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness." Matheesha continued: In the mahanidana sutta there is mention of how a foetus would die ie- no more arising of nama-rupa if -- snip -- But these are minor problems which miss the point of what this whole process is about. H:>> Because he sees naama, he sees ruupa. He does not depend on tanha, > lobha, upadaana, domanassa, abhijjhaa and he is liberated at that > moment' > It is temporary realization of dukkha sacca. It is teporary > removal > of samudaya sacca. It is temporary cessation of dukkha sacca. And > it > is temporary development of magga sacca or the path. > So there are all 4 sacca in yogi or meditator. But it is loki > sacca > and it is not yet supramundane. M: Hmm.. I dont agree with this entirely. To say that understanding/panna is the same as vimukti,release is not right. There is no nirodha sacca in the process you described above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But at least while pancupadanakkhandha or 5-clinging- aggregate is seen tanha and avijja are ceased to arise. There is cessation of avijja and tanha. I did not say it is nirodha that is genuine nirodha. Genuine nirodha is seen at magga, phala and experienced during nirodha-samapatti and it is after arahatta-cuti citta. I just said loki sacca. When such seeing of pancupaddanakkhandha become uninterrupted then consciousness will be in the pipe line. There always are flowing water into the stream. So before stream- entrantship is attained there are minor crooks and flows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: If you look at the upanisa sutta you will see that it has to go further after panna through the stages of nibbida etc to reach vimukti, to experience the unconditioned. There maybe moments without any surface lobha,dosa or moha, but this does not mean that the fetters to samsara have been broken. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I said is approaching to the foot of Meru. Seeing of pancupadanakkhandha is a requsite for higher naana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: Better not to give premature reassurances. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'premature reassurances?' Well I think there are many drowning. When some have straw they are at least to be praised that they have a future light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: IMO it takes development of other mental faculties to take the process further into vimukti, not just panna, but opinions might differ. metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do know that Dhamma is deep, large, wide and limitless. Dhamma should be learned as long as we are here. Some seem not to agree when Dhamma are being talked as if they are easy. Anyway a slice of brick, a piece of sand may help someone. Culapanthaka in his past was a farmer. He was ploghing in the peddy filed. The weather was hot and so he was sweaty. After ploughing he approached to the shade of a tree. He wiped out sweat with his garment. 'O! the cloth changed to a dirt one' 'What a great shock!' 'What a great change!' 'What impermanance!' When in his final life he was not able remember anything that were taught to him. The Buddha just gave him a cloth and asked him to rub. And that rubbing finally led him to attainment of arahatta magga nana along with abhinna. Sanna! Sanna does works. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:48am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 202 - Zeal/chanda (b) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] > > Chanda arises with the eight types of lobha-múla-citta. When > chanda arises with lobha-múla-citta it searches for the desirable > object, it needs that object. > > Although chanda is different from lobha which can only be of the jåti > which is akusala, when they arise together it is hard to distinguish > between them. When we like to obtain a pleasant object, lobha is attached > and it is chanda which can accomplish the obtaining of that desired > object. Lobha could not accomplish anything by itself. However, also when > we do not need to obtain an object we are attached to, there is > chanda accompanying the lobha-múla-citta. > ***** > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Nina, Very good explanation. I think this is the point where Sarah likes explanations on 52 cetasikas. When chandha and lobha are not well distinguishingly understood there arise a problem. My recent message to Robert K is related to the matter of chanda and lobha. With respect, Htoo Naing 46056 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I continue with our discussion: > ======================= > > > > Htoo: > > The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or > she > > will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will > > attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she > > follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if > > one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half > > month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 > > days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents > of > > defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. > > > > 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general > > statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or > > 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for > > average person and it is for most frequencies. > > > > There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at > > such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. > > Sukin: > I have been disinclined to find out what this Gaussian Bell is all about. I > do not see any relationship between the findings of science and > mathematics with Dhamma. But you seem to be so in this particular > case, so I wonder if you are not to some extent projecting significance > on to these figures which may not be there? I personally think that this > figure of 7 years, 7 days and so on is only symbolic. And that it signifies > a relatively short period of time in which, were the conditions right for > patipatti to arise regularly, then that person would reach the goal. > What is your idea of the "average person" here? What in terms of > parami and accumulated wisdom is your `average man', and is he also > Bahussuta? How do you know that you and I are in this average? Is it > helpful to think this way? Does it condition samvega and saddha or does > it arouse ambition and wrong understanding? > > I think our attention should instead be, on understanding as much as we > can, and not to overreach and try to imitate or otherwise to justify what > we believe in. > > Metta, > > Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, I just explained what Mahaasatipatthaana sutta say. If you do not believe it it is your right not to believe. The sutta says 7 years, 6 years, -- , -- , 7 days. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46057 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Just a point. You wrote: 'Sukinder: So you like to visualize and come to a conclusion about what might be going on in the mind of another person? ;-)' Some even shows explicitly that there is no tolerance. The idea of self is here and there. I did not misunderstand Robert K. I just included his idea. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46058 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana(equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your quotes. Rob M appreciated. Some appreciated. Even one who hates insinuations seems appreciated on one occasion. When we recognize the riding flow there is nothing to be attached. Apology for my crooked hidden messages. Anyway I do not have any self-memory. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: If someone who has attained path-knowledge says that magga citta can arise without samma-sankappa and it is possible that 7-path can also lead to magga nanna then I may change my mind. But up to now my belief is that lokuttara cittas are all on 8-path. 46059 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, In your message: 'Htoo:> I just simply said that > > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Interpretation and translation are not the same. I have already quoted the original piece of Pali. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not bother 7 days or 7 years or 7 lives or many lives. I just reveal what the sutta says. 46060 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > Discussion continued: > ========================== > > > > S=> > > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. > > ========================= > > Htoo: > > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > > following. > > =Sukinder: > Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there > is `following'. This may happen very rarely, but it is better than > mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or > even any level of kusala. And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that > his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he > is deluding himself. > > Metta, > > Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, This is very true. Rather than saying 'deluding himself' it should be said that he or she is not following satipatthaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46061 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:26am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 203 - Zeal/chanda (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda arises also with the two types of dosa-múla-citta. Chanda “searches” the object the dosa-múla-citta dislikes. Here we see more clearly that chanda is quite different from lobha which is attached to an object and which can never accompany dosa-múla- citta. Chanda does not accompany the two types of moha-múla-citta. One type of moha-múla-citta is accompanied by doubt (vicikicchå). Doubt has “wavering” as function, it is not sure about the object, and thus there cannot be at the same time chanda which searches for the object it needs. As we have seen, this type of moha-múla-citta also lacks “decision” (adhimokkha), which is sure about the object. As to the second type of moha-múla-citta, which is accompanied by restlessness or distraction (uddhacca-sampayutta), this type cannot be accompanied by chanda either. *** Note from Zeal/chanda(a): Sometimes the word chanda is used in a composite word such as kåmacchanda, sensuous desire, which is one of the five hindrances. This is a form of lobha. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46062 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Here is a part of our discussion. '> Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If > one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence > is the same. =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. Because this is truth. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46063 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing Dear Sarah, 'The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it's an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: "Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta." **** S: I think your `first-hand' and `second-hand' may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear, so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....'pali basics for dummies':). ============================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Primary object, secondary object is my idea. I do not think there will be any Pali for that. Even if there is, maybe this is coincidence. When we hard a 'sentence' there already have been many many cittas. So number them from 1 to infinity. The first citta is panca-dvaravajjana citta. Leave that. The first appreciation is 7 javana cittas that cittas know the arisen object given by avijjana citta down through sampaticchana, santirana and votthapana citta. That 1st 7 javana cittas do not know vaci-pannatti. My idea of primary object and secondary object is that there are many many cittas. There are many many vithi vara before actual understanding and grasping of the idea in the sentence. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46064 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message on musaavaada. '> That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under > musaavaada. ... S: I'd like to see a reference for this. Metta, Sarah' Dear Sarah, sorry for not providing reference. Anyway, I think it might well be my own summary. This may well be 'naming matter'. When summarised all 4 vaci-kamma come under the umbrella of 'vaci-ducarita'. If I say so you will no more be disturbed as compared with 'musaavaada' as 'the summary of vaci-akusala kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46065 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, ... S: How can there be any `seeing of these postures'? What is seen again? Please give the answer loudly for all to hear:). How are postures known, Htoo? By which door-way? What are the conditions for being aware of visible object or seeing consciousness? Is `seeing postures' one? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These will be in Dhamma Thread (1000+). The Buddha did preach 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: In reality, what is `specific posture'? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are just Dhamma. There is no Htoo, no Sarah, no self, no posture. But as soon as you finish reading this sentence you will be bending or straightening or sitting or standing or lying or moving or anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Are these concepts or realities? Please give the answer loudly again:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma Thread loudly say. Sampajaana pabba say all the details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Yes, `having gone to the forest....', not `go to the forest..'. Did he use this expression when speaking to lay people? Did he use it when speaking to all bhikkhus? Did he use it to Ananda all the time? Might he not say to us: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Texts readers and texts writers have different approaches. Your approach is like a text-writer while I am saying text-readers view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: `having gone to the swimming pool......school with your kids......theatre.......computer to check messages.....brisk walk in the park.......develop samatha and vipassana bhavana/ satipatthana. ` There is only ever the present moment whether here or there, so if there is no awareness and understanding right now of whatever dhamma is conditioned already to appear, then satipatthana cannot develop. Forget about the root of the tree, Htoo:-). Metta, Sarah p.s `Dispeller' 1589: "so ara~n~nagato vaa (`he, having gone to the forest'): this indicates that he is provided with an abode of the aforesaid kind." Mind you, we can help you find some nice forests when you come to Hong Kong....:). ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha. I like mountain and forest. Maybe one day. The moment of seeing pancupadanakkhandha is satipatthaana and it is also vipassanaa. When there are many of such moments these moment will condition what will arise next. With respect, Htoo Naing 46066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:03am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 203 - Zeal/chanda (c) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, *** Note from Zeal/chanda(a): Sometimes the word chanda is used in a composite word such as kåmacchanda, sensuous desire, which is one of the five hindrances. This is a form of lobha. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah (and Nina), There are different akusala dhamma. Kaamacchanda is just a form. It is to hinder jhaana, magga, phala, nibbana. With respect, Htoo Naing 46067 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 - Errors buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - There are typographical errors in 15 (4) and 17. Please replace the previous two paragraphs by the following : (4) Over-exerted(atipaggahita) cognizance is attacked by agitation (uddhacca): by curbing(vinigganhitvaa) it he abandons agitation, thus also cognizance does not become distracted. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). Thanks to Han Tun's careful reading that has caught my errors. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, > who develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with 16 > grounds (bases or vatthu -- thanks to Sarah's correction), into 10 > groups (I - X). Section i and Section ii describe the knowledges in I and > II. Section iii deals with the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing > (vodaana-naana) in III, and covers paragraphs 15 through 168. > However, most of these paragraphs are based on the paragraphs 19 - > 23. These "core" paragraphs are presented below and, because of > their importance, they should be studied very carefully so that the > remaining material may be clearly understood. > 46068 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo (& Nina), > Htoo: > I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti and great great somanassa'. > I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. ... S: I agree it wasn't a very good example to give, even if technically correct,. Actually it's quite interesting now I look at the texts. I was thinking of this passage from the Nina's book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Double check, triple check and multiple check never go wrong. Sometimes I do read old messages of myself and find errors and no remarks on that error. Now I will see your quoted book's part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah quoted Nina's book: "As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 8 lokuttara cittas. 4 are magga cittas or path- consciousness and 4 are phala cittas or fruition-consciousness. When these consciousness arise in the vicinity of 5 jhaana these 8 lokuttara cittas can be called as 'lokuttara jhana cittas'. They are also jhaana cittas. Because they are absorbed into nibbana in the same degree as in case of jhaana cittas but they are much much more purer and much much more powerful in terms of liberation. Jhaana temporaily liberate akusala while lokuttara jhaana cittas liberate permanently. There are 5 jhaanas. They are 1st jhaana, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th jhaanas. If there are all 5 jhaana factors then it is 1st, 4 is 2nd, 3 is 3rd, 2 is 4th and 1 is 5th. So in 5th jhaana there is only one jhaana factor and it is ekaggata. All arupa jhaanas have ekaggata as jhaana factors. So they can be called as 5th jhaana. Here 4th jhana, 5th jhaana and all arupa jhaana do not invlove piiti. So it seems like that 4th and 5th lokuttara jhaana cittas seem not have piiti. When it is viewed from jhaana side it is right. In the vicinity of 4th jhana and 5th jhana there is no piiti at all. When citta exits from 4th or 5th jhaana it looks jhaana cittas and sees that there is no piiti. And that paccavakkhana cittas do see that there are cittas and other namakkhandhas and they are impermanent and suffering and non-self and higher nana arise instantaneously and rockets up to magga citta. But 'I THINK PERSONALLY' that as soon as nibbana is seen there arise piiti, sukha and other associated lokuttara dhamma. That is why there are terminologies like lokuttara sukha, magga sukha, phala sukha etc etc. 4th and 5th lokuttara jhaana cittas do not have piiti. This is right from the side of jhaana. But I believe that there arise piiti. Seeing of nibbana is not like any other seeing. Here do not ask me whether I have seen it or not. But seeing nibbana is not like seeing of other dhamma. This even does not like seeing of naama and ruupa, and understanding of their characteristics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote continued: 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. **** S: I was rushing before when I sent you several posts and had never checked these refs she gives. You'll find them interesting so let me quote one for you here, going back a step: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will read it now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote: Vism XX1, 111: [THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S FACTORS, ETC] (Vism caps): "This knowledge of equanimity about formations governs the fact that the meditator keeps apart. It furthermore governs the difference in the[number of the] noble path's enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, the mode of progress, and the kind of liberation. For while some elders say that it is the jhana used as the basis for insight [leading to emergence] that governs the difference in the [number of] enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, and some say that it is the aggregates made the object of insight that govern it, and some say that it is the personal bent that governs it, yet it is only this preliminary insight and insight leading to emergence that should be understood to govern it in their doctrine. "To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry- insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far, I agree your quote. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote continued: For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy [piiti] and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy." ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana(equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already rushed a reply to this same post. This is a thorough reply again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. 1. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah for your encouragement. Musings topics? I read some depending on availability of time. But do not remember whether I read this portion. With respect, Htoo Naing 46069 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Continuation of discussion on dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, Continuing with the discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin asked: > Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and > panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand > what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata > ditthi as if it is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(26.05.05) =Sukinder: :-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement. ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It has always been nice to leave a good mnessage like this one. Because there are questions that should be responded with counter questions. And there are questions that should be answered with evidence. And there are questions that should be answered with thorough explanations. And still there are questions that do not need to be answered at all. Likewise not every point needs to be responded. So it is justifiable to leave it alone and it is justifiable to say '':-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement.'' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued to ask: > Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no > matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the > path be walked upon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. > There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or > whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and > such dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Maybe you could answer my question regardless of any `subtle sassata ditthi' that may be apparent in my statement? And if I continue to project any sassata ditthi in our discussions, you can also explain more? ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I have to answer I would answer it is true that if there were no right accumulation then The Buddha's teachings will not be understood and it will not be possible to walk up on the path as the path has not been understood as The Buddha's teachings have not been understood. I agree with you. I just teased you. Because you are so good at Dhamma that you will never allow any 'self' encroaching upon. That was why I teased you that there was subtle idea of 'self' in the form of non-self accumulating so and so dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > I just simply said that > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responded this on my rushed reply. Interpretation and translation are not the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We can read 'mahaasatipatthaana sutta' together if you want. What is sure is that 'The Buddha' is also known as 'Sugato' or 'Well Gone Well'. Sugato also includes the idea that The Buddha never said 'unfruitful speech' 'double-edged speech'. So you may be right that 'ONLY ONE WILL BE RIGHT'. What I have been posting are just 'transferred words'. This means that 'when a tape is played the same voice comes out'. Do not think in a complicated way that when batteries become weak voice will change. What I mean is that 'exact copy' is the same. Examples: 'Ruupa.m anattaa bhikkhave..' This 'copy' is always there and that when you say it 'it is it' and when I say it 'it is it' and when any other people say it 'it will sound -ruupa.m anattaa bhikkhave..' When I say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati' it is always 'g-v- g-p..' Here translation first speaks. Then interpretation speaks at both translation and interpretation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, I have replied this part. I do not bother whether it takes 7 days or 7 years or 7 lives or any time measurement. What I posted was that 'the sutta does say there will take 7 years, let alone 7 years if one does practice for 6 years, --- --- 7 days, one will at least attain one of 2 fruit. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I have been mocked 'not signing as mettena' at another site. 46070 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin (26.05.05) [note this date is not Sukin writing date but my reply date] Dear Htoo, Discussion continued: ========================== > > S=> > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= > Htoo: > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > > following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there is `following'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dead right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) This may happen very rarely, but it is better than mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or even any level of kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma go in their own way. I do not need to worry and you do not need to worry. But what worry me is that we are 'selves' living in this world of 'prosperity of The Buddha teachings' and we should not miss the teachings even though there are no self at all from the start. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he is deluding himself. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha Ha Ha. Drink a cup of tea. Light a cigarette. Lie relaxedly on an easy chair or on a dream bed. And then relax with sati and panna. No one can enripe any fruit. If anyone tries, the fruit will ruin. So do not force any sati and any panna. Because they can never be forced and brought up under our will. Even in jhaana matter cittas are not controllable. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46071 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin (26.05.05) Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion. ============================ > S=> > The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Of course, you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: ?? You mean `me' or the `ripe'? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Anyone. Because it is dhamma. Dhamma is not controllable. I say seriously. Mahaasatipatthana sutta says in the session of nivarana pabba and also in vedana pabba. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Only the Anagami doesn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Why? =Sukinder: No conditions? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good answer. I will take a note in the note book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being > addressed to the so called `ripe', ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(26.05.05) =Sukinder: No. But the Buddha was speaking to the ripe, wasn't he? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was smiling on your answer of 'No.'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we > may > not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is > a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not > `doing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Does this mean you agree? If so, to what extent? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha Ha Ha. I agree. To the extent of right. I smiled because I like that statement of 'understanding' and at the time I was smiling I remembered 'not doing' at the same time. That is why I smiled and now why I laugh. Ha Ha Ha --- :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's > teachings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you never do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Intention arises with each citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is intention in terms of abhidhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: My concern mostly is only to `understand' what is said about the Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'only to understand'? So not 'doing' at all? Meditate Ananda, meditate meditate. Or else you will regret. This is our instruction to you. Meditate Cunda, meditate meditate. Or else you will regret. This is our instruction to you. These are not my words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) I don't presume that it will happen, though this is one condition for pariyatti, and when this does arise, it is accompanied by a level of sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'a level of sati'? Understandable! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) But even if there is in fact wrong understanding and I go away with the illusion of `knowing', still it is not from any presumption before hand about the activity. There is no control over how the words are presented and which phrase will condition what. ================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Message received. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) > Sukin: > Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all > about > and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship > between pariyatti and patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence is the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have replied in my rushed message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Sukin > If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can > be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. > However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or > satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the > corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =Sukinder: :-) Does this mean agreeing? ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :D means smiling with open mouth upto both ears. I smile because of wordings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Any idea of a `self' having to do something in order that satipatthana will arise. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally impossible. Because there is no self from the start. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46072 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, > Other rupa experienced through mind door are > 1. 5 panca pasada rupas > These are only known after learning. .... S: I don't understand your comment. Does this mean the cittas of a baby or animal do not experience pasada rupas or subtle rupas because they haven't been learned? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Say you were a devii. Then you died 70 years ago and you were reborn at manussa bhuumi or human realm and named Sarah. You might know the sense of photthabba as 1st javana. It was kaayavinnana citta. That citta does not know 'any pasaada ruupa'. Or you might very happy because you regained what you had lost as a hood or as a life or as an existence and this is lobha cittas and this is common to all including The Buddha-to-be in his last rebirth. These cittas do not know any pasaada ruupa. How can be 'pasaada' rupa primary object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Surely the function of sati is to be aware of what is being experienced by citta anyway, not to 'learn' to have new dhammas being experienced. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are following primary and secondary object where I say pasaada ruupa and 16 sukhuma ruupas seem not primary object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The same as with the 7 sense-door rupas....they arise and fall and are experienced regardless of any sati. ... > 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters ... S: Like very subtle rupas such as masculinity and femininity...they're there arising and falling and being experienced from time to time, but who knows? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do they really arise? If so they cannot arise more than a single moment. What I am asking is as mind-object. Not the ruupa itthatta bhava ruupa and purisatta bhaava ruupa. They arise and persist for 17 moments. But when they serve as an object they do not serve from 17 moments. Ask K Sujin this matter or ask Nina on this matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it's an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Asabhaava ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta." **** S: I think your `first-hand' and `second-hand' may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have replied in my rushed message. primary and secondary are my words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear,so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....'pali basics for dummies':). ============================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These alphabet of Pali which never existed as Pali alphabet are exactly the same as Myanmar alphabet. Myanmar language has 33 alphabet. But in pure Myanmar language .t, .tha, .d, .dh, .n are not frequent. Because 'sound'- or 'voice'-wise we Myanmar have t, tha, d, dh, n. Almost the same. But the distinction between these 2 roles of 5 alphabet was taught me by a Venerable Sayadaw. Jinavamsa also taught me about 'force of air' and 'aspirated' 'unaspirated'. When Pali words are grammar related then I do have difficulty in finding them in the dictionary. Then I have to check possible 'root' word. 46075 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (423) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When aruupa jhaana or non-material absorption is considered to be achieved initial step is to develop 5th ruupa jhaana or 5th material absorption first. This has to be based on 9 kasinas. Aakaasa kasina or 'space' cannot be based as 5th ruupa jhaana to ascend up to 1st aruupa jhaana. 1st aruupa jhaana is unlimited space while aakaasa kasina is also a space there is no distinction between 2 objects and so 5th ruupa jhaana based on aakaasa kasina is not used for foundation of 1st aruupa jhaana. When one of 9 kasina is taken as the object of ruupa jhaana this has to ascend up to 5th ruupa jhaana. When 5th ruupa jhaana is reached it needs to become proficient in that 5th ruupa jhaana. So one has to be able to enter into and exit from 5th ruupa jhaana at will. At each exit jhaana factors and the object and the jhaana itself are also contemplated as paccavakkhanaa. When this is done it becomes evident that 5th ruupa jhaana is close to 4th ruupa jhaana. That is 5th ruupa jhaana with upekkha is close to sukha and as soon as it falls back to sukha then 5th ruupa jhaana will become 4th ruupa jhaana and there will be downgoing trend. So to prevent this the base object has to be changed. That is the foundation object has to be voided. Before this can be done, the existing object has to be expanded. This object has to cover the whole universe or this object has to be limitless or endless or measureless. This can happen with the power of 5th ruupa jhaana. At a time the object occupy everywhere and it becomes limitless and measureless. As this object is the base for 5th ruupa jhaana and it is close to the danger of falling back to 4th ruupa jhaana this object has to be dropped or eliminated or voided. With this intention and with continuous practise on existing jhaana at a time when there are right conditions there arise another object which is like the object of 5th ruupa jhaana in the character of limitlessness and measurelessness but it is emptied space and it is aakaasa of boundless or limitless domain. As soon as this limitless space arise and there are ekaggataa and upekkha with absorption then this can be called as 1st aruupa jhaana. This jhaana is the same as 5th ruupa jhaana with only difference of object, which is boundless space. As the name implies this jhaana is called 'aakaasa + ananta + ayatana' jhaana or 'akasanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The cittas that are arising is called akasanancayatana arupakusala cittas and the jhaana is called akasanancayatana arupa jhana. Jhana factor-wise there are only ekaggata and with upekkha vedana. So it can be counted as 5th jhaana. But as there is no recognizable rupa-related object this new jhana is called arupa jhana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46076 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (424) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When in 1st aruupa jhaana or 1st non-material absorption there is a continuous flowing of 1st arupa jhana citta. So in that 1st arupa jhana there are cittas and all these cittas are arupa jhaana cittas. With the exception of cittas of arupa brahmas all these 1st aruupa jhaana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu or hadaya ruupa or heart- base material. This is the only involvement od ruupa in aruupa cittas. Aruupa cittas do not deal with ruupa. But when in pancavokaara bhuumi or when beings have all 5 khandhas these aruupa jhaana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu. There is an object for arrupa jhaana cittas. That object is pannatti. It is the idea of 'boundless space' which derived from voiding of spread-object of 5th rupa jhana. As the object is pannati it does not arise and it does not fall away. What arise is citta and what fall away is also citta. There are associated mental factors in 1st aruupa jhaana cittas. They are a) 7 universal mental factors b) 3 of 6 particular mental factors (vitakka, vicara, piti-voided) c)19 universal beautiful mental factors d) 1 pannindriya cetasika or wisdom-mental factor --- 30 cetasikas or 30 mental factors May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46078 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (425) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first arupa jhana has to be practised to become proficient in that jhana. This take the same exercise as in cases of rupa jhana. When this is done there finds that the object boundless space is close to the danger of re-appearing of the rupa-related object of rupa jhaana that is spread-object of kasina. If this happen there will draw back down to lower rupa jhaana through arising of inappropriate dhamma. To stop this danger of ruupa jhana re-arising one has to avoid that object called 'boundless space'. With this dispassion the practitioner tries not to attend on boundless space. When he repeatedly enter and exit and contemplate on 1st aruupa jhaana he finds that the object is close to the danger of ruupa jhaana. And he tries again and again not to attend to that boundless space. At a time when there are right conditions he see that there are many cittas that are attending boundless space. Instead of attending boundless space now the practitioner attend to 'cittas' that take boundless space. Now the practitioner see 1st arupa jhaana cittas and these cittas become the object. As there is just ekaggata as jhana factor and upekkha vedana and when the mind absorbed into the object of these 1st arupa jhana cittas the absrobed citta that see these 1`st arupa jhaana citta is 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. 1st arupa jhaana cittas take boundless space as their object. In 2nd arupa jhana cittas the object is 1st aruupa jhana cittas. The 1st jhaana cittas take or stay at boundless space. This is the thaana or space of 1st arupa jhaana cittas. The thaana or the place of 2nd aruupa jhana citta is 1st jhaana cittas. When the thaana or place of 1st jhaana citta is boundless then thaanii or 1st arupa jhaana cittas can also be assumed as boundless. As these 1st aruupa jhaana cittas are boundless, limitless, measurement less they are called boundless-consciousness. The sphere that 2nd arupa jhaana cittas take is called 'the sphere of boundless consciousness. These 1st jhaana cittas are consciousness or vinnna cittas. So this new arupa jhaana citta is called 'vinnana + ananta + ayatana' citta. Ananta means boundless, vinnaana here means '1st aruupa rupakusala cittas, and ayatana means 'the sphere of 2nd jhaana citta'. So this new arupa jhaana citta or 2nd aruupa jhana citta is called 'vinnaananancayatana arupakusala citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, I could not follow all the threads, but I remember a recent Vis. Tiika text:to Vis. XIV, 158: The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, and after that stage it is abandoned. Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. I cannot continue the thread, because I go away on a trip Saturday until next week wednesday. Nina. op 26-05-2005 12:14 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > PS: If someone who has attained path-knowledge says that magga citta > can arise without samma-sankappa and it is possible that 7-path can > also lead to magga nanna then I may change my mind. But up to now my > belief is that lokuttara cittas are all on 8-path. 46082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 nilovg Hi Tep, Thanks a lot. I cannot contribute much since I go away from Saturday until next week Wednesday, appreciating, you did a lot of typing, Nina op 26-05-2005 05:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, 46083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara feelings nilovg Dear Sarah and Htoo: I checked Abhidhammattha Sangaha by Ven. Narada, maybe you could compare b.b.'s Guide: Narada p. 153: Thritytwo lokuttara jhanas are accompanied by somanassa. Thus, when we count lokuttara cittas as forty, the other eight are accompanied by upekkhaa. I do not see any problem here. Nina. op 26-05-2005 08:52 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Dear Htoo (& Nina), > > --- htootintnaing wrote: >> Htoo: >> >> I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti >> and great great somanassa'. >> >> I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. 46084 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I could not follow all the threads, but I remember a recent Vis. Tiika > text:to Vis. XIV, 158: > > The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor > of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is > accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth > stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied > thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, > and after that stage it is abandoned. > Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci > sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m > samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. > > It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes (kadaaci) is > without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. > > I cannot continue the thread, because I go away on a trip Saturday until > next week wednesday. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. When you are back please check this message. Thanks for your quoting on tiikaa. I believe that in lokuttara 2nd jhaana cittas there is no vitakka as jhaana factor but there is sammasankappa as path factor. Vitakka as jhaana factor is not required from jhaana object to be taken. But just before arising of magga citta which takes nibbana as its object manodvaravajjana citta is applied to nibbana. This application is done by vitakka. This vitakka does not apply to jhaana object but to nibbana. Other kusala cittas do the same while they progressively matured and matured up to gotrabhuu and then nibbana is fully appreciated with magga citta. Otherwise the path will not be atthangika-magga but sattangika-magga. But this is never heard in any setting of Dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 46085 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 V... upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Phil (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/26/05 12:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Ph: Ok, I guess I was wrong above - shifting in the seat to be more comfortable isn't intense. And the dictionary above says clinging is an intensified form of craving. This is still confusing to me, because khandas are always clinging, but rarely in what seems to be an intense way. ======================== I think of clinging as kind of a hardened, habituated craving - a developed "tendency to go after," and I consider that habituated tendency to have repeated tanha, itself, as a condition for its development. But clinging need not be intense - it can be very subtle in fact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46086 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 V... upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/26/05 12:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Thanks Howard for that "we start where we are, not where we want to be." Interesting - that'll stick with me, though I'm not sure I agree. There's so much ignorance where I am now that I think starting a formal practice of any kind would just be splashing around in the mud. But maybe not. You could be right. I am keeping an open mind about meditation. ======================== Meditation is only one very important aspect of the practice that we start with, and that we continue with. There is also careful attention to sila, serious study and contemplation of the Dhamma, ongoing mindful attention to whatever arises at any time, and watchful monitoring at contact for our reactions, attempting to desist from akusala reaction and encourage kusala. Bhavana is multi-pronged cultivation. As I see it, Dhamma practice is not a "one-trick pony". ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46087 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/26/05 4:23:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 ----------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. I'll do that soon. ---------------------------------------- I think we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to seeing, visible object and conceptualising, even though we use different language. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I believe so as well. -------------------------------------- Good to see you back, Howard. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ------------------------------------- Htoo's really taken your no 1 spot :/ ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, GOOD! ;-)) [More time for "practice" for me!!] ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46088 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 5/26/05 4:23:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 ========================= I just read the post, and I find that I have no comments to add except to confirm that, yes, we are on the same page on this matter. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46089 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka Evan_Stamato... Cosmique, Indeed there is a transcript of the proceedings. I was also interested in reading this a while back and ordered the book from Sri Lanka. I will look it up when I go home and email the details. Metta, Evan 46090 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: question on seeking permission from parents Evan_Stamato... "Permission from both parents is needed." This might work well in Buddhist countries but not so well in Western countries where parents are more likely to follow primitive fear-based religions. They would not fully understand the request for going forth. Metta, Evan 46091 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' I'll offer you this from the Maha-Mangala (SN II.4) sutta to reply to your claim that the Buddha didn't want us to disrupt our daily routines. A deity addresses the Buddha: =================================================== Many devas and humans beings give thought to protection, desiring well-being. Tell, then, the highest protection. =================================================== The Buddha then goes on to list such activities as: =================================================== Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection. =================================================== He then goes on to list about 30 more conditions, and ends the sutta with: =================================================== Everywhere undefeated when >acting in this way<, (emphasis mine) people go everywhere in well-being: This is their highest protection. =================================================== I guess there's the possibility that Bhikkhu Bodhi just recommended it for us to work with, not for us to follow to the letter. It's hard to reconcile this sutta with other instructions like to contemplate the four foundations of mindfulness. It would be a new daily activity for me to do this contemplation, in fact to follow the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole. This brings up the question: If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which contradict basic Jewish beliefs? I guess there's no one checking to make sure my truths are consistent, I don't want to be involved in organized Judaism very much. I guess this will be much like a look and see unless I get some feedback here. > A: > The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising > the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do > continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can > this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe > Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set > myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like > quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you > follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while > doing this seems quite out of synch. > ------------------------------------- > > Are you going to practise the Buddha's teaching the way the ancient > commentators understood it, or the way modern commentators have > understood it? In the former way, you can continue a normal, > unremarkable, lifestyle - provided only that you set aside some time > for learning the Dhamma. > > However, if you are going to follow modern-day gurus - who teach > things that were never in the Tipitaka - then daily life will > be disrupted. I want my daily life to be based around practise, to be practise. Didn't the Buddha say he revealed a "holy life, utterly perfect and pure?" As far as one can practise this life as a layperson, I would like to. > > ----------------------------------------------- > A: > I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is > the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep > peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the > sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only > way to do this? > -------=---------------------------------------- > > If you are naturally inclined towards carrying on the family > tradition (or any other normal tradition), then why not? On the > other hand, if you find your lifestyle to be unnatural and > burdensome, then you will naturally, and effortlessly, seek out > something different. Well I recently followed the instructions for renunciation in a book titled the same by a guy named "T. Prince" and that felt very traditional and in line with my, well, liking of non-worldliness, but I couldn't really keep the instructions going without reading the book, that is, reflecting on and abstaining from all types of wrong speech, renouncing sense desire, then being detached and acting with mindfulness and awareness.. it was impermanent just like my original traditionality with vipassana meditation was, but shouldn't I be able to practise it till the end of the Noble Eightfold Path? Just like my meditation I wish this to return with time, or to be able to reflect on how I did it so I may act in that way again. > > ----------------------- > A: > Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of > wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if > I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel > after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking > words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. > I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make > things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual > practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward > and not good relations with. > ------------------------ > > There is no need to upset your father - any more than there is need > for a spiritual practice outside of normal daily life. It is worth > repeating: according to the ancient texts, the Buddha's teaching is > all about understanding the way things are - it is not about making > things the way they aren't. I'm not familiar with the ancient texts, but it really seems that I gained a lot by following the teachings at least by putting aside time, as you said, in this case not for just learning, but for meditation practise. Without this, I have no spiritual practise, I do not feel in tune with seeing ultimate realities, or just seeing a deeper level of reality, feeling and seeing as one does when he has a working spiritual practise. > > --------------------------------- > A: > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta > when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of > mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted > us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder > that, but know? > ---------------------------------- > > You wouldn't be the first person to 'not know.' How many of us > (including myself) have mucked up their lives by trying to be a good > Buddhist? It doesn't work that way. I proved it. If you take a fool > out of his city office and his suburban brick-veneer, and put him in > a one-room shack with a veggie garden, what do you get? You get a > fool in a shack with a garden. > > Ken H > :-) > Yeah I've messed up my life but mostly after things worked out nicely for weeks and months, and then let up. Trying to recreate past conditions is where I mucked things up. Ken, I tell you, I learned and had good experiences that validated truths of the Buddha's teachings through meditation, and helped me see things that very few others do see and understand. I know I am taking somewhat of a wrong approach to impatiently pick up the books that are supplements to B.B.'s book "Noble Eightfold Path" but each time I do it changes things for the better.. it should, in the end, be just a matter of getting things together. Peace, A.L. 46092 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Hi Phil, At the risk of going too far, I would say clinging is all about belief. The upadana khandhas are objects of clinging. We cling to form, feeling, perception, production and consciousness. Also we cling to concepts and formations. In other words, we have views, beliefs, and assumptions about all this which we 'hold tightly', 'cling to'. It is the basis of wrong view. But neither craving nor clinging are, themselves, suffering, except in the sense of being unsatisfactory. Suffering itself, is unpleasant feeling. Both craving and clinging condition unpleasant feeling because what we want we can't get and what we think is wrong. However, Dependent Arising doesn't go into this. We have to look at the Four Noble Truths for that angle. Larry 46093 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline philofillet Hi Andrew A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which contradict basic Jewish beliefs? Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no Buddhists. A Jew's cittas and cetasikas are no different from a Buddhist's, I guess. I find it very liberating to let go of these stories. I know that "letting go" of these concerns is not an option for you - they are in your face - but I wonder if a deepening appreciation of cittas and cetasikas will lighten the load for you by reminding you that beyond conventional truths there are ultimate truths, always, in every moment. Anyways, good luck with this, Andrew. I am living thousands of miles away from my family and can hardly get around to writing a letter home so I respect your consideration of these very real (but ultimately not real) concerns. Of course the Buddha did teach of the duty we have to our parents, no matter what. (Although he taught Abhidhamma which reminds us that our parents don't exist in reality - another one of those delightfully paradoxical points.) Metta, Phil 46094 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 6:00pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet HI Larry > At the risk of going too far, I would say clinging is all about belief. > The upadana khandhas are objects of clinging. We cling to form, feeling, > perception, production and consciousness. Also we cling to concepts and > formations. In other words, we have views, beliefs, and assumptions > about all this which we 'hold tightly', 'cling to'. I don't know, Larry. This does sound like going too far to me. I mean, day in, day out, there is clinging to form, to feeling, but we don't think about it or have conscious views about it. But I am confused about what "views" means - does failing to see the truth of khandas, or realities, constitute a view? In that case you would be right. By the way, I found this SN 22.5 which helps me to understand craving and clinging: "One seeks delight in form, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight arises. Delight in form is clinging..." So the "seeks delight in form" would be craving, I guess. I guess the akusala forms of piiti (zest) and chanda (zeal) come in here as well. There are passages in Nina's chapter on piiti about piiti motivating citta to reach for the object. Or was that chanda? Nevermind - I will reread those chapters. In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I misunderstand what "views" means. Metta, Phil 46095 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & all, > > S: We were discussing any textual references for the custom of `pouring > water' and I mentioned Tirokudda Sutta and commentary. I believe the > following verses are often quoted during such services as the sharing of > merit with the departed: > > 1.Tirokudda Sutta (The Without-the-Walls Discourse), Khuddakapaatha, > (PTS-~Naa.namoli transl) > > "As water showered on the hill > Flows down to reach the hollow vale, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > As river-beds when full can bear > The water down to fill the sea, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin." > ... Actually, I had completely forgotten about this issue! It's good that you keep good notes! ;-) Thanks so much for the sutta quotes, commentaries, and other sources for the ritual of pouring water. These sources do explain where the ritual originated and how it has been used in various instances through history, but it is still just a ritual, right? I read the sutta you quoted that uses the metaphor of pouring (adjective not verb) water to illustrate the passing of merit on to the deceased in the ghost realm, but I don't think it is saying that if one pours water then merit is going to be automatically transferred. If that was the case the ghost realm would be getting a lot of merit because people pour water in one manner or another everyday! ;-)) You also didn't relate this information back to the original topic of discussion: K. Sujin. I was saying that K. Sujin doesn't appear to be as stodgy and orthodox as she as painted as being because she recommended the ritual of pouring water. Even with all her talk of "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced by her Thai culture. Did you wish to address that matter or just stick to the `pouring of water' subject? (I am doing a lot of reading of K. Sujin presently, and taking notes, so I would be interested in your feedback on this one issue also.) Metta, James 46096 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline philofillet Hi again, Andrew and all > Ph: I know > that "letting go" of these concerns is not an option for you - they > are > in your face - but I wonder if a deepening appreciation of cittas > and > cetasikas will lighten the load for you by reminding you that beyond > conventional truths there are ultimate truths, always, in every > moment. An afterthought. I know you know this already, but some people don't understand that reducing ourselves and other people to nama and rupa *does not* mean that there is a dehumanizing or coldness. The loving- kindness and compassion that we feel are just as real (more real in my opinion) as in the context of narratives. There are fewer obstacles to a pure appreciation of other people, fewer obstacles to really and deeply taking care of them, sometimes free from soial obligations, sometimes in the context of social obligations. Metta, Phil 46097 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Phul) --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: <..>Perhaps you mean, > `Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view'?? > > T: I meant ditthupadana. .... S: Thank you for clarifying. This is of course one of the four kinds of clinging – clinging to (wrong) views. [Phil, yes, upaadaana is a stronger kind of craving (tanhaa). The 4 kinds of upaadaana are: 1) kaamupaadaana – sensuous clinging 2) di.t.tupaadaana – clinging to (wrong) views 3) siilabbatupaadaana – clinging to rites and rituals 4) atta-vaadupaadaana – clinging to personality belief.] ***** > S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. > > Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: > 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? > 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? <...> > T: <...> > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what > the > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). > > This issue is not easy to be resolved, Sarah. ... S: I don’t believe it’s a question of anyone’s words but what can be tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is seen is visible object. That’s it. All that’s ever heard is sound. All that’s ever touched is hardness/softness/roughness/smoothness, heat/cold, motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn’t you agree? I agree that we should pay very good attention to what is taught in the suttas. Are we taught that anything else is seen, heard and so on? I don’t think so. Just briefly from the suttas you raise: MN137, Salayatana Vibhanga Sutta ‘On seeing a form with the eye....’ ‘On hearing a sound with the eye....’ ‘On smelling an odour with the nose...’ ‘On tasting a flavour with the tongue...’ ‘On touching a tangible with the body...’ ‘’On cognizing a mind-object...’ ..... MN148 Chachakka Sutta “ ‘The six external bases should be understood’......There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object base....’ .... Let me pause there and wait for any further clarification from you of which aspects in these suttas you believe are at variance with the answers to the questions I raised concerning paramattha dhammas. I’d be happy to discuss these suttas further with you to try and iron out any different understandings. ..... > > The Dialogue Continues > ------------------------------------ > > S: As we read elsewhere in suttas. all wrong views stem from a belief in > > self including annihilationist views.<"The view `self exists for me' > arises > in him as true and established; or the view `no self exists for me' > arises > in him as true and established; or the view `I perceive self with self' > arises in him as true and established...."I perceive not self with > self'....'I > perceive self with not-self...' > > > S: So we see these are all various forms of sakkaya ditthi. When > someone says `no self exists for me' here, it is still the `me' or self > that > exists now and with the idea as I mentioned before that there are no > conditioned dhammas, no kamma, no rebirth. In other words, it is quite > the opposite of what we mean when we refer to dhammas as being > anatta, conditioned, beyond control and so on as I think you suggested. > > T: It seems to me that you have grasped the Anatta principle pretty well > > now. But how should I understand your earlier statement ? <"The > concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. > Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an > illusion.> When you wrote "there is nothing to be taken as self", > wasn't it > the same as `no self exists for me' ? .... S: Not at all. I’ve never written anything along those lines:-)). As I’ve stressed all along, when I write ‘there is nothing to be taken as self’ or anything similar, it’s just my paraphrase of ‘all dhammas are anatta’ and I always make reference to the khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas in this context. There hasn’t been any change but I appreciate such phrases can easily be misunderstood out of context of the rest of the message. It’s the same when we read the texts, I think. For example, Lisa quoted from the Vism: ‘But here there is no human being to be found’. Again, out of context of the description of the marionette which merely consists of mentality-maeriality, it can easily be misconstrued perhaps. Or lines from the commentaries I quoted about ‘it is not-self’ and so on. > Thank you much for the consistent attention to details and the great > energy you have demonstrated. I have a lot to learn from you here. ... S: Likewise and I mean that most sincerely, Tep. I appreciate your approach to study and discussions very much. You really contribute a lot to the list. Again, please don’t mind if you get a little irritated or impatient with any of us from time to time...it’s oh, so natural:). Metta, Sarah p.s you raised an interesting point in #45825 when you started to read some of Htoo’s DT’s through my eyes:). As Htoo knows, I think that most of his DTs are excellent and U.P. is full of them these days. There are a few, however, which I find very ‘questionable’ and just put aside and then are some which I like , but nit-pick over. Then there are some like the ones you refer to which I think are interesting because they could be written as you suggest with the ideas of ‘lobha’ and ‘a self’ who is directing the jhana activities’ OR it could just be conventional language and quite ok. For example, just as a piano player has to develop skills and practice exercises, so does the jhana practioner when it comes to the vasis. This is why, as it says in the sutta I quoted in Musings1, one has to really question someone at length to determine their understanding and then its only if we have developed enough wisdom ourselves to know:-). It was an excellent question....I hope Htoo may still comment on #45825, but I'm fairly confident he will give the ‘correct’ answers in paramattha terms, so that’s why I didn’t ‘nit-pick’ these ones:-). I do like it when he stresses that there is no jhana practitioner and that jhana states are as conditioned as any other dhammas and just as anatta. Where Htoo and I are far more at ‘odds’ with a huge chasm is with regard to how samatha is developed at all. For example, I don’t find all the posts about kasinas without any emphasis at all on understanding or how the objects condition calm of any value. At least when it comes to satipatthana, we’re communicating:). (I know he won't be deterred by any of my comments!!). How about you, Tep? Which DTs do you find helpful? What are your comments on the texts you read at Zolag? Do quote/raise any qus or comments anytime. No need for any agreement here:). =============================================== 46098 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:12am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 204 - Zeal/chanda (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As regards ahetuka cittas, “rootless” cittas, chanda does not accompany these types of cittas. Seeing-consciousness, an ahetuka vipåkacitta which sees visible object, does not need chanda in order to perform its function of seeing. Sampaìicchana-citta which merely “receives” the object which was seen by seeingconsciousness does not need chanda in order to perform its function of receiving. It is the same with santíraùa-citta and the other ahetuka cittas, they do not need chanda in order to perform their functions. If the functions of paìisandhi (rebirth), bhavanga (lifecontinuum) and cuti (dying) are performed by ahetuka citta(1),the citta is not accompanied by chanda. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 11. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46099 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum sarahprocter... Hi James, > Actually, I had completely forgotten about this issue! It's good that > you keep good notes! ;-) Thanks so much for the sutta quotes, > commentaries, and other sources for the ritual of pouring water. > These sources do explain where the ritual originated and how it has > been used in various instances through history, but it is still just a > ritual, right? .... S: As I wrote recently in a post to Lisa, my understanding of ‘ritual’ has more to do with the mental states than with the outer actions. I gave the example of going to the temple and paying respects in front of a Buddha statue. It could be ‘just a ritual’ with all sorts of wrong ideas, or their could be deep appreciation and reflection on the Buddha’s virtues. I think that whilst participating in any ceremony, we can only know for ourself what is going one. How do you see it? ... >I read the sutta you quoted that uses the metaphor of > pouring (adjective not verb) water to illustrate the passing of merit > on to the deceased in the ghost realm, but I don't think it is saying > that if one pours water then merit is going to be automatically > transferred. If that was the case the ghost realm would be getting a > lot of merit because people pour water in one manner or another > everyday! ;-)) .... S: :-)). As I understand, nothing is passed on as such, but one just has the intention that any petas (or other beings) may share or have the chance to appreciate the gift. It’s similar to the idea of ‘anumodana’ which is used so often in Buddhist countries when one rejoices in others’ merit. (see ‘anumodana’and ‘Merit-sharing’ in U.P. if you have time). Of course, only beings in certain realms, such as petas, may have a chance to rejoice and then there is of course no way of knowing. Yes, when we just run the kitchen tap, there’s no dana involved and nothing to rejoice in even if we have an intention that beings might rejoice!! .... > You also didn't relate this information back to the original topic of > discussion: K. Sujin. I was saying that K. Sujin doesn't appear to be > as stodgy and orthodox as she as painted as being because she > recommended the ritual of pouring water. Even with all her talk of > "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced > by her Thai culture. Did you wish to address that matter or just > stick to the `pouring of water' subject? .... S: Well I was probably sticking strictly to the texts in light of the comments you’ve made about mis-interpretations and voting with my keyboard fingers for the New ‘brown rice and tofu’ James to continue without any provocation from me:-). I think she tries to just point out what’s what. She never says we should do anyting in particular, but just understand the particular mental states at such ‘rituals’ and to understand the value of any wholesome states including generosity of various kinds such as when we let others ‘share’ the merit. I’m not sure the custom of pouring water is so common in Thailand – much more in Sri Lanka in my limited experience. I think we are all influenced by our culture (inc. K.Sujin as you say) and I believe her response to Andrew L, for example, would be to develop more understanding of dhammas while following along one’s ordinary (or ‘influenced’) lifestyle and traditions if he wishes ...easily and naturally. .... (I am doing a lot of reading > of K. Sujin presently, and taking notes, so I would be interested in > your feedback on this one issue also.) .... S: It’s true that whenever we paraphrase or even quote anyone, it is according to our understanding and interest – we all pick out different points to agree or disagree with. I hope you do get to directly address your own points and questions one day. (You may like to listen to the discussion that we’ll be uploading soon. It’s mostly with Nina, Jon, Kom and TomW.) Metta, Sarah ====== 46100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more texts. Can you compare the Burmese Tiika text, which is under lokuttara viññaa.na?: Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. As I said: >> It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes > (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. Why is the term sammaasa"nkappa used here? Does it not denote a Path factor? Could you or Kel ask your Burmese teachers? As to sevenfold lokuttara Path, this is explained as without pitti, in the Atthasalini, (II, under Path-consciousness, english p. 307). Seven or eightfold lokuttara Paths. In the olden days different teachers had different opinions as Buddhaghosa mentioned. Thus, it is a difficult subject. But here is not mentioned: without sammasankappa, and in that case it would be sixfold lokuttara. Now, this sounds strange to me. Nina. op 26-05-2005 20:42 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: I believe that in lokuttara 2nd jhaana cittas there is no vitakka as > jhaana factor but there is sammasankappa as path factor... .... > Otherwise the path will not be atthangika-magga but sattangika-magga. > But this is never heard in any setting of Dhamma. 46101 From: nina Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 161, 162 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 161, 162. Intro: The Visuddhimagga first mentions the two roots of lobha and moha, which are the roots of the lobha-muula-cittas. We should remember that lobha-muula-cittas are also accompanied by shamelessness, ahirika, recklessness, anottappa, and restlessness, uddhacca, which accompany each akusala citta. Here, the Visuddhimagga deals with the first type of lobha-muulacitta, and this is associated with wrong view, di.t.thi. When lobha-muula-citta arises it is infatuated by the object and it cannot give it up. It does not see the impurity of lobha and it does not see the consequences of akusala. It is ignorant of the nature of akusala and it is restless, there is no calm. ***** Text Vis.161: (xxxix) By its means they are greedy, or it itself is greedy, or it is just the mere being greedy, thus is it 'greed'. (xl) By its means they are deluded, or it itself is deluded, or it is just the mere being deluded, thus it is 'delusion'. Text Vis.162.: Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). ------- N: The Tiika refers to lobha that does not get rid of an object by the adherence of Œthis is mine¹. Because of lobha we want to possess the objects we experience. Monkey lime was used by hunters to catch monkeys. The monkey would stick to a tree with his paws and feet and he would be unable to free himself. Evenso, when lobha gets hold of an object it cannot let go of it and it is trapped. -------- Text Vis.: Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. ------- N: As to the expression dye of lamp-black, the Pali term raago that is used here means Œdye¹ and Œattachment¹. Dye made from lampblack is extremely hard to get rid of. Evenso attachment is extremely stubborn, hard to get rid of. The Tiika adds that it is hard to be freed from it. ----------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. ---------- N: The Tiika explains Œenjoyment¹ here as assaada di.t.thi, wrong view associated with enjoyment. As we read in Vis. XIV, 91: ³When a man is happy and content in placing wrong view foremost of the sort beginning 'There is no danger in sense desires' (M.i,307)...² The Co. to the Book of Analysis, the ŒDispeller of Delusion¹ (Ch 17, 2453, p. 2578) explains that assaada di.t.thi is eternity view, (sassatadi.t.thi). In this case he thinks that sense desires and pleasant objects last, he does not realize that they arise and fall away and are thus dukkha, unsatisfactory. -------- Text Vis.: Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. ------- N: When one does not see the danger of clinging it is accumulated all the time. There are conditions for its arising again and again, and thus the cycle of birth and death will continue. ****** Conclusion: In the Dhammasangani (§ 1059) almost hundred synonyms of lobha are given and these are explained in the Expositor (II, Part II, Ch II, p. 467). It is called genetrix (janikaa), Œbecause greed gives birth to beings in the round of life renewed.¹ So long as lobha has not been eradicated there are conditions for rebirth. One of the synonyms of lobha is Œvisattikaa¹, diffused. The Expositor explains: ¹Visattikaa is spread out, diffused, extensive, compelling, deceptive, misleading. poison-bearing, poison-rooted, poison-fruited, poison-enjoying, permeates; or, craving is spread out, extended over sights, sounds, tastes, tangibles, ideas, over family, over a multitude.¹ Lobha is like poison that permeates our body, but we do not notice it as poisonous. We cling to all objects experienced through the senses and the mind-door. We cling to sense impressions such as seeing or hearing, we cling to life. We usually do not notice it that we cling to seeing or hearing. These cittas fall away immediately and afterwards we are usually engrossed in thinking about concepts such as the shape and form of people and things. One of the synonyms of lobha is Œinfatuation of mind¹, citassa saraago. The Expositor explains: ¹Infatuation of mind¹ means that the term described above is not of a permanent being, but only of consciousness.¹ We take lobha for self, for Œmy lobha¹, but this synonym reminds us that it is only a cetasika accompanying citta, arising because of the appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. 46102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 nilovg Hi Phil and Larry, the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. See also the Vis. and tiika today. Nina. op 27-05-2005 03:00 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that > clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so > prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting > away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I > misunderstand what "views" means. 46103 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew and Phil, I do not know much about the Talmud, but as to what I heard, it is very good sila. Very practical for daily life and composed with so much kindness and compassion. You do not have to follow all the rules, but you can take the essence out of it. You remember that my first question to you was about the Talmud? There are stories of rabbis in Judaism which contain so much old, oriental wisdom. Wise, practical lessons. Just delightful. We can appreciate them and interprete them with the Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma and social life, this is not a contradiction and we can come to understand this more deeply. When we read in Buddhist texts about family tradition, they usually refer to the tradition of generosity. Nina. op 27-05-2005 02:48 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in > what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist > principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which > contradict basic Jewish beliefs? > > Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a > good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. > In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no > Buddhists. 46104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum nilovg Hi James, about Kh Sujin. She will always stress that what matters are the cittas which motivate doing this or that such as pouring water. Are they kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When following certain customs she likes to help people with kusala cittas, and she will make people pay attention not to cling to rituals or indulging in superstition. It is the same when paying respect to the Budha's relics in India. People may be superstitious or cling to the relics. They are all that is left of the Buddha, but the best respect is developing satipatthana. We look at the relics, but only visible object is seen. Kh. Sujin helps us to sober up. Nina. op 27-05-2005 05:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Even with all her talk of > "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced > by her Thai culture. 46105 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Sukin, Htoo, Tep & all) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sukin, would you please thank Kh Sujin for her very clear explanation. > I did not suggest that the Vis. reference did > not seem to point to moments of satipatthana, but I only quoted the > samatha > part: piiti with the object. > Tep, also the first jhana is referred to. > When jhanacitta has just fallen away, the yogavacara should and can > consider > the jhanafactors that are with the jhanacitta. They have just fallen > away > and their characteristics can appear to the citta with sati sampajañña. > When > he is very skilful, he can attain higher stages of jhana. ... S: I also understand from her that before jhana, panna knwows which object brings more and more calm and kusala. Immediately after jhana, the jhana factors are known clearly, such as vitakka or piiti. This is possible at this time because of the strength of the absorption and jhana factors. Before jhana, it's just thinking about them. .... > ...She then gave > > the example of tasting, knowing both the taste and the awareness that > > there is `something' there and pointed to the mode of "knowing" > > of "citta" rather than `sati' (I think this is what she was trying to > get > > across, but I am not sure). > ------------ > N: This example shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. it seems > knowing > what the taste is occurs at the same time as tasting the flavour. In the > same way, the yogavacara experiences with absorption the meditation > subject, > and immediately realizes after that jhanafactors like piiti. ... S: Yes, exactly. it's like the reviewing after the lokuttara cittas -- the factors have fallen away but their characteristics are directly known as a result of the 'strength' or absorption of the jhana cittas. .... > ------- > K. Sujin then compared > > my initial doubt with the one that sates to the effect that, "how can > one > > citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? > She > > said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and > having > > one object at a time. > --------- > N: An idea does not help. We can check realities. Seeing has just fallen > away, but it is still present, its characteristic appears and it can be > object of awareness. ... S: Again it's back to the topic I was discussing with Htoo on citta A, citta B and na'vattabba (not so classifiable) objects. When we understand about the reviewing cittas after jhana and lokuttara cittas, the rest is clear. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, have another good trip!! Thx for telling us. ====== 46106 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:37am Subject: Pali basis (03) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 Pali letters and 8 vowels. 33 letters are a) The first' vagga' or the first 'group' of letters is called 'guttrals' or they can be called 'ka group'. Guttral alphabets are pronounced by putting the back of tongue up against hard palate and it is voiced explosively. K, Kh, G, Gh, `N The first letter is 'k'. If it is associated with a vowel say 'a' it become 'ka'. This sound is like the sound of 'ka' in 'cathedral'. Ka is prounced unaspirated whereas 'kha' is aspirated word. 'h' is for aspiration. Example of aspiration is here. Black + hat = blackhat = blac + kh + at As you can see, 'k' is aspirated with 'h'. Note the difference between 1. black cat = blackcat = blac + kc + at = blac + kk + at(unaspirated) 2. black hat = blackhat = blac + kh + at (aspirated) g and gh are the same as k and kh. The difference is these two alphabets are pronounced by voicing with movement of voice-box or larynx. Put the palm of hand on the throat and say alternatively 'ka' 'ga' 'ka' 'ga. At anytime when 'ga' is said there is vibration on the throat because of movement of voice-box. Ka is not voiced. The last alphabet is `n and it is the same as ka but it has to be nasalised. b) the second group or vagga is 'palatals' or 'ca' group. C, Ch, J, Jh, ~N The tip of the tongue is put against the palate (so called palatal) and air is forced through the tongue and the palate. When C is combined with the vowel 'a' it becomes 'ca' and this is like the sound of 'sa' in 'satisfaction' or 'ca' in 'central'. Other letters are like the first group and they are just aspirated, voiced- unaspirated, voice-aspirated, and nasalised sounds. c) The third group is 'cerebral' or '.ta' group. It is like 'ca' and put the tip of the tongue at the junction of palate and teeth. It is rather slightly a bit back of tip than right at the tip. The air is push explosively. There is no air between palate and tongue like in 'ca'. That is 'ca' is non-touching while '.ta' is touching with tongue. '.Ta' and 'Ta' seem to be the same. But '.T' is a round mouth while 'Ta' use a wide mouth. .T, .Th, .D, .Dh, .N .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .n The same as above. d) the 4th group or vagga is dental or 'ta' group. T, Th, D, Dh, N Ta, tha, da, dha, n The same as above. e)the 5th group is labials or 'pa' group. Put upper and lower lips together and push air explosively to open the lips. Pa is like pa in 'parallel'. P, Ph, B, Bh, M Pa, pha, ba, bha, m The same as a), b), c), d). f) This group is semi-vowels group except 'sa' Y, R, L, V, S Y = palatal ; put the back of middle of the tongue against the palate and say or push air through. There is no touch of tongue to the palate when it is pronounced. R = cerebral ; Put the tip of tongue rolled back and to the mid-palate and push air through. There is no touch of air. L = dental ; Put the tongue as in case of 'R' but this letter is pronounced invloving touching of the tongue. V = dento-labial ; Bite the lower lip with upper teeth. The upper teeth bite the lower lip (dento-labial) and push air explosively through teeth and lip. Y, R, L, V are semi-vowel in Pali. S = dental (sibilant); This letter is pronounced by putting the tongue against teeth and push air explosively. It is a consonent and not a vowel as in y, r, l, v. But it forms a group here together. g) the last vagga This is not a true vagga or group. H, .L, .m H = aspirate .L = cerebral (similar to L but with rounded mouth) .m = niggahita There is no initial letter for this alphabet. This alphabet always follow some other letters. Examples; k (consonent)+ a(vowel) + .m(niggahita) + m(consonent) + a(vowel) ka.mma = kamma (seed) There are 8 vowels. They are 1) 'a' as in case of 'ca' 'na' . This is a short vowel. 2) 'aa' as in case of 'vaa' . 'aa' is written as 'a' with a hyphen over the 'a'. But when character for 'a-' is not available we can use 'aa' instead. It is a long vowel. 3) i as in case of 'ti' 'pi'. This is short vowel. 4) ii as in case of 'dii' in Diigha. This is a long vowel. As in 'aa', 'ii' is written as 'i-' that is '-' over 'i'. 5) u as in case of 'nu' of 'anupassanaa'. A short vowel. 6) uu as in case of 'muu' in muula. Like 'aa', 'uu' is written as 'u- ' that is '-' over 'u'. This is a long vowel. 7) e as in case of 'de' in deva. This is a long vowel. But when then are 2 consonent following 'e' it becomes short vowel. Eva = 'E' is a long vowel. 'Ettha' = 'E' is a short vowel. Because there are 2 consonents of 't' and 'th' following 'e'. 8) o as in case of 'do' in dosa. It is a long vowel. But when there are 2 consonents following 'o' it becomes a short vowel. Osadha = 'O' is a long vowel. Votthapana = 'o' is a short vowel. Because there are 't' and 'th' 2 consonents following 'o'. Regarding vowel sounding an example of a typical word 'K' will be used here. ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, ko, ka.m kakka, kakkha, kagga, kaggha, ka`nka kacca, kaccha, kajja, kajjha, ka~nna ka.tta, ka.ttha, ka.dda, ka.ddha, ka.nna katta, kattha, kadda, kaddha, kanna kappa, kappha, kabba, kabbha, kamma kitta, kinna kutta, kunna ka~nta, ka~ntha, ka~nda, ka~ndha ka.n.ta, ka.n.tha, ka.n.da, ka.ndha kanta, kantha, kanda, kandha kampa, kampha, kamba, kambha keyya, kalla, kva, [tan]ha With Metta, Htoo Naing 46107 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:50am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Tep and all, Sarah wrote to Tep in her ps; 'Where Htoo and I are far more at `odds' with a huge chasm is with regard to how samatha is developed at all. For example, I don't find all the posts about kasinas without any emphasis at all on understanding or how the objects condition calm of any value. At least when it comes to satipatthana, we're communicating:). (I know he won't be deterred by any of my comments!!). -------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, This is a bit hard area. I think you and I discussed on 'why white colour condition kusala and so on' and we have not convinced yet. Leave it alone. We can go back to it when it is time to do so. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46108 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Refreshing the citta, piiti (a) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Nina,, Yes, I think it’s helpful to stress the difference between samalobha (ordinary lobha that doesn’t harm others) and visamalobha (unnatural or harming lobha). If we’re afraid or avoid walking briskly, eating ice-creams or going to parties, it doesn’t help to understand conditioned dhammas. You've both been raising some interesting points and I'd like to add a few of my reflections too....I hope you don't mind me butting in here. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > taking care of the body, doing what is suitable for one's health is not > necessarily lobha. > The Co. to the Satipatthana sutta explains about the fourfold > sampajañña, > clear comprenesion: of purpose, of suitability, of resort and of > non-delusion. > A long time ago Kh. Sujin explained that it is a kind of wisdom to do > what > is suitable for the body, like stretching at the right time. One should > not > torture oneself sitting all day. ... S: Well, I think there’s bound to be samalobha much of the time while taking care of the body, walking for health and so on. When I’ve questioned K.Sujin on sappaya sampajanna, she always stresses ‘what is suitable for satipatthana at this moment’. Ultimately, the suitable climate, the stretching or good friends are merely concepts used for short-hand to represent large numbers of namas and rupas in these contexts (or in the context of natural decisive support condition, Phil). They refer to the experiencing of various dhammas, which we call good friends and so on, which accumulate and can condition satipatthana at this very moment, like the examples given in the intro to the Satipatthana Sutta about the Kuru people, the climate and their good health which made it possible for them to listen and appreciate the Dhamma. .... N:>The Buddha recommended the alley walk > to > the monks. > Kh Sujin walked fast in India in the early morning, and also when we > visited > her in Keng Kracang. But while walking she was so kind to give us Dhamma > reminders. ... S: Just to clarify a little further, I don’t think there is any suggestion that we should walk fast in order to develop satipatthana. Again, satipatthana ‘follows’. While changing posture, walking quickly or whatever else is ‘suitable’, satipatthana can develop. Like eating congee or having a clean house -- again they are not 'prescriptive for satipatthana', but while we follow whatever we find helpful for our health or well-being, develop satipatthana. .... N:> There can be mindfulness also when walking. > Of course, lobha arises time and again, but there are different moments. > Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible for us > to > live in the world. ... S: Though I think we can say it is the samalobha which lets us live our worldly lives. As we know, the arahant cannot live the lay life. Are we ready to give it up??? .... N:> So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by ahirika, > shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of akusala. They > are > unknown. ... S: I found the Vism and tiika passages that you and Larry quoted very moving as I usually do on ahirika and anottappa. “Ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilemtnents; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottapa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.” Thankyou Nina & Larry. I appreciate your work a lot in the Vism corner. ... > You asked before: why bother with the Visuddhimagga since they are also > in > my Cetasikas. Believe it or not, but these subjects are always new to > me. I > like to consider them from different angles. .... S: I find the same with both texts. ... Phil:> > I walk (fast) for about an hour before teaching and my > > classes are excellent. <...> ... S: :-) Yes, everyone benefits when I get some good exercise too. As we know, lobha can condition kusala as well as kusala.....Again, the ‘situation’ consists of so many different dhammas, but lobha is there most of the time, I think, even when we appreciate those ‘plucky tulips’:-). (you’d get on famously with my mother, Phil...very much her kind of language!!). Metta, Sarah ======= 46109 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, Tep and all, > Dear Sarah, > > This is a bit hard area. I think you and I discussed on 'why white > colour condition kusala and so on' and we have not convinced yet. > Leave it alone. We can go back to it when it is time to do so. ... S: yes, I'm leaving it alone. Maybe by the time DT gets to a 1000 and we've sorted out all other differences:-). I appreciate all our discussions, Htoo....more next week. Also enjoying all your threads with lots of laughter with Sukin. Please don't disappear without word or warning. Metta, Sarah p.s also see 'Satipatthana Sutta & commentary' posts in U.P. and 'sukkhavipassika' as Nina mentioned if you have time. If I come across it, I'll give the link to my Musings on 'Mistakes'. How come I spend so much time going through DTS and you're not even sure if you read my occasional Musings. Is that fair???;-)). Have a good weekend....Lucky you didn't choose this week to make the forest roots in Hong Kong your abode....big, big storms here:). Seriously, lots of lovely mountains and forests for walks, but I warn you, we walk briskly so if you're w-a-l-k-i-n-g sooo s-l-o-w-l-y, you'll never get out of the city! =============================================================== 46110 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more texts. Can you compare the Burmese Tiika text, which is under lokuttara viññaa.na?: Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca ..snip..niyataviratitaa. As I said: >> It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes > (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. Why is the term sammaasa"nkappa used here? Does it not denote a Path factor? Could you or Kel ask your Burmese teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: As to sevenfold lokuttara Path, this is explained as without pitti, in the Atthasalini, (II, under Path-consciousness, english p. 307). Seven or eightfold lokuttara Paths. In the olden days different teachers had different opinions as Buddhaghosa mentioned. Thus, it is a difficult subject. But here is not mentioned: without sammasankappa, and in that case it would be sixfold lokuttara. Now, this sounds strange to me. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina and all interested members of DSG, I would point out a fact. I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual lokuttara citta'. In that small gap, in case of any of 4th jhaanalasbhii, 5th jhaanalaabhii and aruupa jhaanalaabhii there does not arise piiti. I think, it is true. But for vitakka and vicaara they may or may not arise. I am not sure for that gap. But I believe that as soon as magga citta arises samma-sankappa also arises and directs magga citta to apply to nibbana. I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. Interesting and difficult area. I will ask one of my teachers when available. With respect, Htoo Naing 46111 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (426) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 2nd arupa jhana is 'the state of absorption of mind into the sphere of boundless consciousness'. The object is 'consciousness'. This consciousness is vinnana. This vinnana is 1st arupa jhana citta. As the object of 1st jhana is limitless the citta that takes that object is also limitless and boundless. This boundless consciousness or 'vinnana anata' is seen by 2nd arupa jhana citta. This 2nd arupa jhana citta is called 'vinnana ananta ayatana' arupakusala citta or 'vinnananancayatana arupakusala citta'. This is 2nd arupa jhana or 2nd non-material absorption. This 2nd aruupa jhaana is also required to be practised to become proficient. One has to enter that aruupa jhaana and then exit from it and then re-enter it. He has to be able to advert to that aruupa jhaana at ease, without delay and at will. Example. If one is in the border of the zone of black and the zone of green, he can step into the green zone and if he want he can step back to the black zone. Black zone refers to 'the sensuous sphere' and green zone here refers to 'the fine material sphere'. The practitioner has to be able to turn the attention to 2nd aruupa jhaana. Initially this may take time and there always is a delay. With practice this delay becomes less longer and when proficient the practitioner will be able to advert to 2nd aruupa jhaana without delay, at ease, and at will. Explanation!! There is no self here. Otherwise there will be heat of argumentation. Certain person says that The Buddha could control ruupa when He showed miraculous things like fire and water shower. This is not true. No one can control dhamma. This no one include The Buddha. Likewise the exercises of jhaana do not deal with any self at all. 'At will' as I said is that as soon as 'a thought that wish to enter the jhaana arises' there is not long delay between actual arising of jhaana cittas and initial arising of wishing mind. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46112 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread (427) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When 2nd aruupa jhaana can be enter at will, at ease, without delay the practitioner has to exercise in other ways. He tries to stay in aruupa jhaana for predetermined period. First there may be inaccuracy. But with practice there become more and more accurate. If 10 minutes is chosen to stay in aruupa jhaana after the exact 10 minutes the jhaana also ends. If an hour is chosen, at the end of an hour the jhaana ends. Another exercise is that the practitioner has to be able to stay in aruupa jhaana and not in other states of mind. He has to completely absorbed into 2nd aruupa jhaana. This is attainment of aruupa jhaana and this is jhaana-samapatti or jhaana-attainment. Another exercise or vasi is votthaana vasi. The practitioner has to emerge from the attainment state and has to contemplate back on attained aruupa jhaana. The act of this emerging is another exercise. Because of adhitthaana vasi jhaana ends at certain time. As soon as jhaana ends other kinds of citta arise. Here this new exercise of emerging helps skilful emerging from jhaana rather than wandering and straying. The most important exercise is 'paccavakkhana vasi'. As soon as exit the arisen aruupa jhaana is scrutinized, examined, contemplated and skilfully considered and pondered. When the arisen aruupa jhaana is checked in this way repeatedly, the jhaana practitioner will become skilful in this kind of exercise. In the earlier stage of proficiency he may just be able to contemplate a few jhaana factors and may be able to contemplate for a few seconds. With a good exercise he will become proficient in scrutinizing and will discover that his current 2nd aruupa jhaana is also not safe yet. In which way? The 2nd arupa jhaana or 'vinnaananancayatana' jhaana or 'arupa jhana taking the sphere of boundless consciousness has a potential danger that it might be drawn back to 'aakaasanancayatana' jhaana and again this might go downhill back to sensuous sphere through 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st ruupa jhaana. The practitioner is now aware of the potential danger and he starts to detach from 2nd aruupa jhaana. But he has still to attach because he has to base on this 2nd arupa jhana to ascend up to 3nd aruupa jhaana. When in 2nd arupa jhaana there is just ekaggata as jhaana factor and there is just upekkha or equanimous feeling. With the awareness that 2nd aruupa jhaana is not a safe place from the danger of sensuous thing one has to detach that object 'boundless consciousness' and he has to attend 'the voidness' of that 'boundless consciousness'. This voidness is nothingness. 'Boundless consciousness' is nothing. There is nothing. And there is just nothing. There is no space, no consciousness, not a thing, there is nothing. The mind is still with ekaggataa and upekkhaa. When the conditions are right there absorbs into another object 'nothingness'. This seems that new citta takes nothing as its object or it seems like not having an object. This is the basic idea for next aruupa jhaana. But for the time being the practitioner is attending to 'nothingness' or 'the idea of nothingness'. This is 3rd aruupa jhaana. Kinca means 'something'. Ana or 'a' means 'no' 'nothing'. So akinca means 'nothing'. Akincinnaayatana = ana + kinca + anna + ayatana So there is nothing as object or nothingness as object and this aruupa jhaana is called 'akincinnayatana' arupa jhaana. As soon as this new citta arise, 3rd aruupakusala kamma has already arisen. And this brings up a potential to give rise to 3rd aruupavipaka citta at a later time. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46113 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:16am Subject: Pali basis (04) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Pali is actually not a language. 'Pali' means 'the text'. Those words as we hear as Dhamma in their original form is the language of 'Maagadhi'. Maagadhi is spoken by 'people of the land of Magadha'. The Buddha spoke 'Maagadhi'. Maagadhi was the universal language in the continent at that time. Pali means 'the text'. That is the texts of The Buddha. Because of this Pali has been assumed as a language. Pali is the text. So it is frequently called Pali Canon. The Buddha Gotama used 'Maagadii' as the medium of His instructions. Anyone who study this language will benefit their learning. But what I sadly and frequently heard is 'Pali' is a dead language. I am not reviving the language. But there does exist beneficial potential of deep understanding of Dhamma through this medium as The Buddha used this medium. If I am asked whether it is possible to study Dhamma without Pali, I would say it may be possible. But it will not be as deep as studying through the medium of Pali for understanding of Dhamma. Pali is not that very difficult. If the basic rules are learned one will become confident in reading Pali canon. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46114 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (428) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Bodhisatta first met Alara Kalama when he searched for Dhamma. He asked what Alara taught and Alara welcome Him and invited Him. Bodhisatta tasted what it was that Alara knew. Not very soon, Bodhisatta attained all that Alara had long practised and attained. It was 3rd aruupa jhaana. Or 3rd non-material absorption. It is akincinnaayatana aruupa jhaana. Alara Kalama could not ascend up and he was stuck in 3rd aruupa jhaana. Bodhisatta knew that there must have more refined state. So he left that teacher Alara, even though He was invited to teach half the pupil and to act as a co-teacher with the same rank with him(Alara Kalama). Next Bodhisatta met another teacher. He asked what that teacher taught. He was Udaka Raamaputta. He was an ascetic. Bodhisatta tasted what he taught to his pupils. Bodhisatta soon attain all what this new teacher knew as his doctrine. This new state that Bodhisatta attained was 4th aruupa jhaana citta. Again Bodhisatta scrutinized on this new 4th aruupa jhaana cittas and He did not find any satisfactory answers to His primary questions of non-ageing, non-diseasing, non-death dhamma. As the 4th aruupa jhaana what He instantaneously attained was not the right thing He was searching Bodhisatta left this second teacher Udaka Raamaputta even though Udaka invited Him to act as a co-teacher and to teach hald the students of him. When 3rd aruupa jhaana has been attained, it has to be exercised as mentioned in case of 2nd aruupa jhaana. When the practices make 3rd aruupa jhaana become proficient, paccavakkhana vasi can effectively sort out the problem of possible danger. This 3rd aruupa jhaana is also close to the danger of falling back to 2nd aruupa jhaana and that again will cause downgrading to 1st aruupa jhaana, which again is very very close to ruupa jhaana. Ruupa jhaanas are not far from sensuous sphere and in no time one may get back to sensuous sphere. When this danger can be seen the 3rd aruupa jhaanalaabh starts to dispassionate on 3rd aruupa jhaana and he tries again practising on his current 3rd aruupa jhaana with ekaggata as jhaana factor along with upekkha or equanimous feeling. When he practises this he frequently looks into the 3rd aruupa jhaana and its constituents factors, the jhaana citta itself, the object and all about 3rd aruupa jhaana is contemplated and scrutinized. When this is done as there is only ekaggata and upekkha, the mind is so calm and clearly see that this state '3rd aruupa jhaana citta' is very subtle dhamma. That citta is hard to be said that it has an object or it does not have an object. It is hard to say that 3rd aruupa jhaana citta perceives an object or does not perceives an object. This citta is so subtle that it is hard to see whether it has perception or equally whether it has n0n-perception or it does not have any perception at all. Actually this new 'seeing' or this new knowledge or new citta is the 4th aruupakusala jhaana citta and it just sees that the 3rd aruupa jhaana is subtle dhamma and it is hard to say 'whether 3rd aruupa jhaana citta has a perception or non-perception. This new citta is neither-perception-nor-non-perception consciousness. It is n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana aruupakusala jhaana citta. N'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana = Na + eva + sanna + na + sanna + ayatana Eva means 'such'. Such consciousness is neither perception nor non- perception. This is a new sphere or consciousness and this consciousness is 4th aruupa jhaana. As soon as 4th aruupa jhaana aruupakusala citta arises, there has already arisen arupakusala kamma. This kamma can give rise to 4th aruupavipaaka cittas at a later time. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46115 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:15pm Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 7! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, all Pain does so caused by Feeling ! Another consequent consideration is: By ending all Feeling, there cannot ever arise any Misery ! Repeatedly seeing both pleasant, painful & neutral feeling all fade away, and instantly vanish in each moment, one is freed for passion for feeling! By quenching craving for feeling one becomes all cool & quite calmed... Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter the state of Nibbana right here & now in this life, or if there is lasting traces of clinging left, the state of a non-returner... Those who neglect understanding Feeling, the origin of Feeling, the End of Feeling, & how Feeling is completely eliminated, are thus incapable of release by understanding, are thus incapable of mental release, are thus incapable of direct knowledge, and are thus incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again... While those who undertake understanding of Feeling, Origin, End & Way, are quite capable of mental release by understanding, & capable of making an end... They are near the deathless dimension! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46116 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:09am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #1 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Thanks for your reply. I'll divide my response over several parts, but am not sure when I will finish. ======================== You wrote: > Why be mindful of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and avijja? Sukinder> Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. . ========================= > Sukin: As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, Ithink we should > keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja, ………………………… > ………the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. > .......................... > Eznir: "As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in > mind the unaccumulated alobha and vijja. …………………………….. >……………infinite non-accumulated alobha, amoha and also samma ditthi." > > Here Sukin, I have tried to re-word the essence of what you say in > the opposite sense as faithfully as I could. I think you will agree > that if what you did say here is possible, then what you did *not* > say here is also equally possible, under any circumstances - which is > the present moment. Sukinder: I'll say possible, but highly improbable, definitely not equally. ;-) But yes, no assuming what is going to arise next. =========================== Eznir: The difference between the two is that they are > exactly opposite in sense and neither has *happened* in the present > moment, that you are faced with, as yet. > Now you may ask, "How do you keep the unaccumulated alobha and vijja > in mind?" And I will ask in reply, "How do you keep the accumulated > lobha and avijja in mind?" You would reply, "By listening to the > Dhamma from a wise person (or reading)". Then I would ask, "Does he > only speak of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and vijja?" and this > conversation would go on. Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be reminded about the moment or we will not. If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. But their opposites don't and we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present. =========================== Eznir: > We as human beings generally seek happiness and not suffering, the > Tatagatha is also known as the well-farer. This happiness or > suffering is in the present moment and depends on how we pay > *attention* to it. Sukinder: We may be confused about `happiness' and end up mistaking what in fact leads to further suffering, as the end-result. ========================== Eznir: The way to do just *this* - attention to the > present moment - is varied. Nevertheless none of us would approach > this present moment with a *clean sheet*, except the Arahants who can > continuously be in the sati-sampajanna mode if they want to. All > those below an Arahant, even an Anagami, would have their *sheets* > soiled somewhat. Sukinder: Without Right View, no kilesas will ever be eradicated. So even though we may not be in control of the arising of kusala or akusala, right view *now*, is a very important. And in this regard we should not overlook the value and importance of intellectual right view, pariyatti. ========================== Eznir: > The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a > positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to pay attention to a particular idea. ========================== Eznir: > The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not > lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the > inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of > either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the > weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to > the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to > neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really talking about panna here. ============================ > Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings > from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise > friend'. > ............................ Exnir: > I agree. And this person will present the Dhamma in such a way that > one is inspired, aroused, propelled and delighted listening to the > Dhamma. Sukinder: But it must be the correct Dhamma. Otherwise, inspiration will only increase attachment to view. ============================= End of part 1. Metta, Sukinder 46117 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #2 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I continue. ============================= > Sukin: This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would > rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Eznir: > This friend would not only point out the tendencies of lobha that > lead us to the wrong way but would also point out the skills needed > to pick the right way! Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) =============================== Eznir: > One should note that feelings, perception, intention, contact, > attention, effort, applied and sustained thought, are some of the > cetasikas common to both wholesome *and* unwholesome states, ie in > all types of consciousness we experience at any given moment, except > in the rupavacara and arupavacara consciousness (other than the first > jhana) and in the cessation of perception and feeling, where only the > life principle together with heat is present. > > Therefore whether the need of the present moment is to rob a bank or > to attain the cessation of perception and feeling, these very same > cetasikas have to be used skillfully following the instructions of a > teacher who is experienced in these matters. In all these you might > still contend that a self is doing these things, but is there a self? Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama and rupa. Any knowing before that even by conditions, and not by a `self deliberately looking', is still only through increasing familiarity, but still not clear, I think. Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the ultimate sense. If we attempt to understand them in experience without first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real knowledge. What can a teacher "instruct" with regard to ephemeral experiences? If you don't yourself *know*, what are you going to convey to your teacher? A teacher can only tell you about conditions, he can't tell you *what* to do, namely he can't make an assumption about any dhamma and how that will be experienced at any time. You can have discussions and in the process refine and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. ============================= > Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do > that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' > which is forever seeking? > ................................. Eznir: > A good teacher would ask the students to keep the 5 precepts which is > something to be done, isn't it? Or do you say that it is the 'self' > here seeking something through the 5 precepts? Ok, let's say it is > the self who is seeking. Then would this thing he is seeking *by > keeping the 5 precepts*, lead towards less suffering or more > suffering? Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only when there is an opportunity for restraint. I think there is a danger when we make any assumption with regard to the Noble Truth of Suffering. We *don't* know it. Any idea therefore about experiencing less suffering, and tying that with a particular practice, is I think placing oneself to be deluded. =========================== Eznir: > I'm sure you must be knowing Abhidhamma very well where ones > experience is broken down into elements and also considers the > various aspects of an experience. Tell me where in Abhidhamma does it > speak of a self? None. Then what is this self that you highlight > here? Sukinder: No I don't know the Abhidhamma well at all, but enough to know that it describe *all* dhammas. So why would it describe the non- existent `self'? Well, `self' is only a concept. It manifest in three ways, via mana, lobha and ditthi. The self that I often refer to, is that which is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, particularly ditthi. I do not mind lobha so much, as it will stay there well beyond even Sotapatti. But when it arise with connection to the Buddha's words and any consequent idea about practice, then it becomes a problem of ditthi. I see it as unfortunate, that the only Teachings which can point to the great danger of miccha ditthi are itself viewed with ditthi. ================================ Eznir: Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and > instruct accordingly! Sukinder: How will he do that, and by what standard? I think only a Buddha is capable of such a thing. ================================== End of part 2. Metta, Sukinder ps: I'll probably respond to the remaining of your post some time next week. 46118 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:21am Subject: Pali basis (05) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Maagadhi language is a language of inflection unlike contemporary English language which does not have inflection. Old English once had inflection and now it is obsolete. Inflections are that a basic word can have different meaning when it is attached with an inflective letters or words. An example in English is 'king'. There is no change in the form of 'word' king whether it is a subject or an object or it is an accusative case or genitive case or so on. No change. It is just 'king'. In Pali king is called 'raaja'. In the position of subject that is if it is nominative case it becomes 'raajo' for 'a king' and it becomes 'raajaa' for 'kings'. When king is in the position of an object of a sentence or if it is accusative case then 'raaja' becomes 'raaja.m' for 'a king' as an object of a sentence. And 'raaja' becomes 'raaje' for 'kings' as an object of a sentence. The base form for 'king' is 'raaja'. Other examples; 1. Odana - rice 2. Aahaara - food 3. Osadha - medicine 4. Dhamma - doctrine, truth, law 5. Gaama - village 6. Gha.ta - pot, jar 7. Suuda - cook (someone who cook) 8. Yaacaka - beggar 9. Putta - son 10.Janaka - father 11.Budha - understanding 12.Buddha - He who understand all or The Enlightened One So they may be said or written in the form as singular nominative forms like Odano, Aahaaro, Osadho, Dhammo, Gaamo, Gha.to, Suudo, Yaacako, Putto, Janako, Budho, Buddho and so on.[example_Buddho in 9 attributes of The Buddha] For plural forms of nominative case they will be_ Odanaa, Aahaaraa, Osadhaa, Dhammaa, Gaamaa, Gha.taa, Suudaa, Yaacakaa, Puttaa, Janakaa, Budhaa, Buddhaa.[example_Sabbe Buddhaa Mahiddhikaa.] For singular accusative form they will be_ Odana.m, Aahaara.m, Osadha.m, Dhamma.m, Gaama.m, Gha.ta.m, Suuda.m, Yaacaka.m, Janaka.m, Budha.m, Buddha.m and so on. [example_Buddha.m sarana.m gacchaami.] For plural accusative case they will be_ Odane, Aahaare, Osadhe, Dhamme, Gaame, Gha.te, Suude, Yaacake, Janake, Budhe, Buddhe and so on. [examples_Aahaare patikuulasanna, Sambuddhe atthavisanca dvadasanca namaami.] This is just basis and nothing difficult here. Summary: 1. the base form -a , example raaj-a = raaja 2. singular nominative form -o , example raaj-o = raajo 3. plural nominative form -aa, example raaj-aa= raajaa 4. singular accusative form -.m, example raaj-.m=raaja.m 5. plural accusative form -e , example raaj-e = raaje May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46119 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/26/05 8:26:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lone.renunciant@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' ===================== Andrew, there happens to be much in the practice of Judaism that can be understood (better IMO) in light of the Dhamma. First of all, the moral practices of Judaism and of the Dhamma have a huge common core. Examples are the Judaic precepts to avoid lashon hara (wrong/evil speech) and to avoid yetzer hara (the evil inclination, a.k.a. Satan/Mara). Secondly, there is very good reason to view the blessings in Judaism [There is a blessing for virtually every experience that arises, and there are generic ones for which no explicit blessing was developed by the ancient rabbis and commentators] as a mindfulness practice! In this regard, an instructive book to look at is The Path of Blessing, by Rabbi Marcia Prager. You may also find of interest the writings of Rabbi Zalman Schachter Shalomi and other writings coming out of the Jewish Renewal Movement formed from converging streams of Reform Judaism, Chassidism, and (yes) Buddhism. With regard to Chassidism, within that there are perspectives on the nature of G-d that are *very* reminiscent of the notions of nibbana and su~n~nata in Buddhism, and its emphasis on kavannah (intention and contemplative preparation) is something quite Buddhist in flavor. Also, many writings coming out of Chassidism - the stories of the old masters, and, for example, the morality writings of Rabbi Chaim Luzzato - are reminiscent of aspects of the Dhamma. Most important of all, I think, is that the neither the Dhamma nor Judaism, IMO, requires belief in fixed dogma, but requires, instead, study, contemplation, moral behavior, and practices leading to a calm, clear, loving, and luminous mind. Somewhere the Buddha is reported to have said that whatever is conducive to the good, to calm, and to insight is Dhamma. I believe the Tipitaka is the clearly best guide to that, but the Dhamma is not found only there. Most of all, it is found within. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46120 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Nina, Larry and all > N: the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one > does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. > Nina. Ph: Does ditthi that comes from this "not seeing kamma and vipaka" refer simply to not knowing about them - or does it refer to something like having an perversely wrong idea about them, such as thinking "there is no need to worry about kamma and vipaka - I will get away with it." I thought it was the latter. If a non-Buddhist does not know about kamma but still has the idea that he can get away with murder because there will be no price to pay would he have the same ditti as a Buddhist who thought that re kamma and vipaaka? i.e is having heard the Buddha's teaching on kamma and vipaaka a necessary condition to have diithi, because diithi means a view that is contrary to Dhamma and to be contrary to Dhamma we have to know it first? (sorry for the weird quesion - I am just beginning to figure out what diithi means.) Leaving aside transgressions - when it comes to clinging to khandas, we are not usually talking about evil deeds, are we? I thought we are usually talking about very weak akusala, if you will, sama lobha et al, and that diiti wouldn't be involved there usually, because we are just like automatons (is that the right word?) when it comes to sensual clinging most of the time. Of course it accumulates, and therefre I guess it has potential to condition evil deeds eventually, but a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it? Isn't most clinging through the day of this sort of degree? Metta, Phil ] p.s Nina > See also the Vis. and tiika today. Ph:I haven't yet. Sorry if my questions are redundant. 46121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 27-05-2005 12:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not > sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have > been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. >------------ N: Yes, I assume they had the highest distinctions, magga-cittas with jhaanafactors and the four patisambhiddhas. ----------- Htoo The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: When the Path is mundane it can be said: the eightfold Path is to be developed. But the factors that arise with the mundane kusala cittas are five or six. --------- Htoo: I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: Yes, so it is called. -------- Htoo: There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual > lokuttara citta'... --------- N: This is too difficult for me. --------- Htoo: I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa > jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is > completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete > bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. ------- N: Yes, but I need texts. I keep to the Expositor II. The feeling, upekkha, can be very calm and very refined. Nina. 46122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add something. I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time to read the books on them. Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques at the wall. I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into contact with the Dhamma. Nina. op 27-05-2005 16:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ===================== > Andrew, there happens to be much in the practice of Judaism that can be > understood (better IMO) in light of the Dhamma. First of all, the moral > practices of Judaism and of the Dhamma have a huge common core. 46123 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/27/05 11:09:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add something. ---------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. I was very appreciative of your reply to Andrew as well! --------------------------------- I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time to read the books on them. Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques at the wall. I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into contact with the Dhamma. -------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! This feature of revealing what is good elsewhere is a real but little commented upon aspect of the Dhamma. -------------------------------------- Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46124 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You're welcome! When you are back to the message board again on Wednesday please edit your copy of the Section iii, Part 1 using Han Tun's revision of the two paragrphs (in which he found errors). I also plan to write a discussion on the core paragraphs 19 - 23. Have a great weekend. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Thanks a lot. > I cannot contribute much since I go away from Saturday until next week > Wednesday, > appreciating, you did a lot of typing, > Nina > op 26-05-2005 05:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, 46125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] lobha and di.t.thi. nilovg Hi Phil, (and Howard) op 27-05-2005 16:21 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> N: the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For > instance, if one >> does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. > Ph: Does ditthi that comes from this "not seeing kamma and vipaka" > refer simply to not knowing about them - or does it refer to > something like having an perversely wrong idea about them, such as > thinking "there is no need to worry about kamma and vipaka - I will get > away with it." I thought it was the latter. -------- N: One may be indulging in bad things, and thinking that there is no consequence. When one holds to a view like this, it is ditthi. One does not have to name kamma and vipaaka, there can still be wrong view. But we cannot know the cittas of someone else. It is hard to pinpoint when there is wrong view with the lobha and when only lobha. Kh Sujin once explained that when there is ignorance about right and wrong, the akusala is worse than when you know. I was surprised and had to think it over. ------------ Ph: ... is having heard the Buddha's teaching on kamma and > vipaaka a necessary condition to have diithi, because diithi means a > view that is contrary to Dhamma and to be contrary to Dhamma we have to > know it first? (sorry for the weird quesion - I am just beginning to > figure out what diithi means.) -------- N: In the texts dhamma is also translated as: what is righteous. There are dhamma and adhamma, they are not limited to certain religions. This is interesting in relation to what Howard wrote about Judaism. Through Buddhism you realize more what dhamma and adhamma are. You see dhamma with others, no matter what religion they have. You appreciate that more. The Abhidhamma has to do with this, you do not mind what names people use: as Howard said, lashon hara (wrong/evil speech), it is adhamma. Honour your parents, this is righteous, it is dhamma. In all religions. All the cetasikas we learn about now in the Visuddhimagga, sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, they are not limited to Buddhism. --------- Ph: Leaving aside transgressions - when it comes to clinging to khandas, > we are not usually talking about evil deeds, are we? ------ N: Akusala cetasikas are included in sankhaarakkhandha. Not a person is the doer of a bad deed, but impure citta and cetasikas. These are khandhas. -------- Ph:... but a moment > of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for > example, doesn't involve diiti does it? Isn't most clinging through the > day of this sort of degree? -------- N: Impossible to pinpoint all this. One may cling to the body as mine or self, also when reaching for the hot water tap. But when one studies the dhamma and has some understanding of wrong view there may be more often just lobha. But ditthi is there as a latent tendency, not eradicated and it can arise at any time. We can only know this for ourselves. Nina. 46126 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Re: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) philofillet Hi James I hope you've been feeling better. > Phil: Now, assuming we *do* know what kusala is, why does this mean > that there will therefore be more moments for kusala to arise? Because > we appreciate it more, we are more liekly to recognize it, we hold it > with a moment of mindfulness, and this momentary holding it > conditions it to arise again? Something like that? I'm not sure. > > James: I'm not completely sure either, but it seems to me that insight > or kusala mind states arise when the proper conditions are put into > place. I do not believe that such mind states can be controlled to > arise- they usually arise quite by surprise. Ph: Yes, I agree for sure. It is natural to want to have more of them, but it can't be that way. > It is only in hindsight > that one might see how certain conditions allowed the insights to > arise. Ph: But we will never sure which condition will allowed which insight, so maybe there is no point in reflecting on it. But maybe there is - it can give us more confidence in Dhamma, and we can share that confidence with others. > Time, the distance between cause and effect, makes practice > more difficult. Ph: Makes patience more necessary. After all, we can be as virtuous as monks in this lifeteme, but an act from a previous life can play out. We never know. I guess this helps us not to cling to expectations about the results of our present acts. > What I believe are the right conditions for the > arising of insight/kusala doesn't match entirely what you believe, but > that is okay- we are different people at different points in our lives. Ph: Well said. > Phil: You won't appreciate what she teaches unless you appreciate > Abhidhamma, which you don't, so why bother? > > James: I don't think this is quite fair. I try to be open-minded > about everything. Of course I don't believe the Buddha taught the > Abhidhamma so it has some flaws- but it's not all bad. It seems to > help some people to stay on the path at least. Ph: OK. You've said more derogatory things on occasions, though. But that was then and this is now. >And from what I have > been reading, K. Sujin doesn't just teach Abhidhamma. That is what I > am saying: I think her teachings are being misrepresented. Ph: Of course she teaches based in all three baskets. I think Nina said that when she teaches in Thai, there are more references to suttas. This could be because she senses that Westerners are prone to being impatient about results, and as we've discussed before, in my opinion we can misinterpret suttas in an unintentional way because of our desire for fast results. > What she does say, rightly I think, is that > as soon as people hear about satipatthana, they want to practice it, > they want to get it. There is no patience. There is only lobha then, > there's isn't understanding, that sort of thing. > > James: But its okay to have lobha about Buddhist practice. What > starts out as lobha for the practice usually turns into real insight. Ph: I don't know about "usually." But I agree that askuala lobha in this area can be the condition for kusala. That is true. Technically, I guess we're talking about chanda, which can be kusala or akusala. Certainly there is not only chanda but a kind of grasping lobha for me when it comes to Dhamma study. I reach for my volume of Samyutta Nikaya the way an alcoholic reaches for a bottle, as a kind of escape from the real world. (This is what Naomi accuses me of at times, and at times she is right.) So at times it is not good. At other times there would be ksuala chanda. Too hard to pinpoint. But you're right. > For example, there was a monk who couldn't stop thinking about his > wife (sexual desire) and wanted to disrobe, so the Buddha took him > psychically to one of the deva realms where they have very beautiful > and sexy nymphs. The Buddha then asked this monk if his liked these > nymphs and he said yes, so the Buddha promised him that if he > continued to practice the Buddha would allow him to get some! So, it > was extreme lobha, sanctioned by the Buddha which got him to practice. > Later he became enlightened and released the Buddha from his promise- > the monk wasn't interested anymore ;-) Ph: Is this a Dhammapda story? It sounds a bit peculiar to me. I'm not sure of the reliability or value of Dhammapada stories. THey contain such vivid incident, but... Who penned them anyways? If this is not a Dhammapada story, please disregard this question. > > James: Actually meditation may not be a great idea for you at the > present moment (mindfulness would be better), but I don't believe it > is because of Spiritual Materialsim. It is because you might try to > use meditation as a way to deflect and suppress upset feelings and > anxiety. Nowadays, you seem to be doing the same thing with > unauthentic (not personally realized) notions of anatta. (First beer, > then loving-kindness meditation, and now notions of anatta-- > mindfulness, in my opinion, is the way for you to go now—hope I'm not > getting too personal, but I'm just following your lead). Ph: James, you are almost always very astute when you analyze me. I think you're right. I do cling to these notions of anatta when I have only the faintest intellectual understanding of dhammas. (Directly understanding dhammas is the only way to come to really understand annata, because it is revealed then as a characteristic of these dhammas.) I do have success dropping irritations just by thinking in a shallow way about nama and rupa - that's true. And it's true it's just a bandaid the way the other things you mentionned were. There are some other issues at play now that I think I will write to you about off-line tonight. I trust your ability to give me advice. Thanks also for your words about metta meditation. I think I've said enough about that topic for awhile. Metta, Phil 46127 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing Dear Nina (and interested members), You wrote: Dear Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not > sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have > been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. ------------ N: Yes, I assume they had the highest distinctions, magga-cittas with jhaanafactors and the four patisambhiddhas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So their arahatta magga citta was attained through 5th jhaana. This is my assumption and I think it may be right. 5th jhaana here means 5th ruupa jhaana or any of aruupa jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: When the Path is mundane it can be said: the eightfold Path is to be developed. But the factors that arise with the mundane kusala cittas are five or six. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. They are 2 panna magganga or 2 wisdom-path factors, 3 samaadhi magganga or 3 concentration-path factors. And there may or may not be one of 3 siila magganga or conduct-path factors. So you are right to say 'five or six' path-factors when it is with mundane kusala cittas. But as soon as supramundane consciousness (magga citta) arise all 8 path-factors arise instantaneously. My belief is that they all arise what ever jhaanas are based or not. Example 2nd jhaana does not have vitakka. But as soon as magga citta arise vitakka also arise and it applies the mind (magga citta) to nibbana. This is not jhaana-vitakka. But it is magga-vitakka. It is right to say that there is no vitakka in 2nd jhaana and above. But magga-vitakka has to be there to apply to lokuttara dhamma. Without vitakka there will not be magga-vitakka, phala-vitakka and there will not be samma-sankappa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: Yes, so it is called. -------- > Htoo: There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual lokuttara citta'... --------- N: This is too difficult for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was talking arahatta magga vithi vara. It will be like BB---BBBMPUAGMPPBB--- B = bhavanga citta --- = indicates 'many bhavanga cittas'. BBB = atita-bhavanga, bhavanga-calana, bhavanguppaccheda past life-continuum, vibrating life-continum, arresting L-C M = manodvaravajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness P = parikamma kaamaavacara mahaakusala citta (seeing naama or ruupa while cognizing anicca, dukkha, anatta) or preparatory consciousness U = upacaara kamavacara mahakusala citta (the same as above but more matured ) or proximate consciousness A = anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta (the same as above but more matured) or negotiating consciousness or flowing consciousness or easing consciousness. G = gotrabhu kamavacara mahakusala citta (the most matured mundane consciousness) or lineage-changing consciousness. It is like a man on the fence just going to jump into 'nibbana' domain. M = arahatta magga citta or path-consciousness P = arahatta phala citta or fruition-consciousness B = pass into bhavanga cittas again. Before this 'BB---BBBMPUAGMPP' there might well be absorbed into any jhaana object. But jhaana has to exist and paccavakkhanaa javana or scrutinization on jhaana cittas and sees and realizes and does 4 jobs of arahatta magga cittas. These 4 jobs were done at 2nd M. 1st M is manodvaravajjana citta whereas 2nd M is arahatta magga citta. So there is a small gap. That is B 1.M 2.P 3.U 4.A 5.G 6.Magga. 1 to 5 moments is collectively referred to 'a samll gap'. In that gap there must not be absorption into jhaana object. Because it is very close to magga and all magga cittas see nibbana. Magga cittas do not see rupa jhaana object or arupa jhaana object. Magga cittas just see nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa >jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is > > completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete > > bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. ------- N: Yes, but I need texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. It will be more valid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina continued: I keep to the Expositor II. The feeling, upekkha, can be very calm and very refined. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding vedana or feeling, piiti or joy, upekkhaa or tatramajjhattataa there are many points to discuss. With much respect, Htoo Naing 46128 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Phil: "a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it?" Hi Phil, It does for me. It is a programmed, automatic reaction, but behind it is the idea of warmth as secure and good. There is almost a religious reverence for a warm bath. Also, there is the pleasant bodily feeling and warm rupa compacted into a seeming whole. Plus there is the issue of what is water experientially. This question used to fascinate me whenever I took a bath when I was a kid. Now I take showers but there are still a lot of 'set preferences' associated with that. It's almost scripted. Larry 46129 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:02pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet HI Larry > Phil: "a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going > lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it?" > > Hi Phil, > > It does for me. It is a programmed, automatic reaction, but behind it is > the idea of warmth as secure and good. There is almost a religious > reverence for a warm bath. Ph: Interesting. I'd never thought about that. I've always been kind of reverent about baths and water, now that you mention it. So I see what you mean. Thanks. > Also, there is the pleasant bodily feeling > and warm rupa compacted into a seeming whole. Ph: This is more what I was thinking of as being beyond (below?) view - just programmed response of a living creature to physical comfort. Especially when it's cold out. >Plus there is the issue of > what is water experientially. This question used to fascinate me > whenever I took a bath when I was a kid. Ph: Interesting. Your evident interest in digging into things experentially has been around since you were a kid. The only thing I can remember about taking baths as a kid was sinking fleets of ships made from shampoo bottle caps etc. >Now I take showers but there > are still a lot of 'set preferences' associated with that. It's almost > scripted. Ph: This "scripted" is why I thought there wouldn't be views, because it's all so automated due to repetitive conditioning. But you're right - there could be reverent views at work or something like that. I'm not sure. I'll probably be thinking about it when I take a shower this morning. I remember once last year I wrote down something in a notebook about noticing how I reached for the hot water tap before I thought about it or realized consciously that the water wasn't hot enough. Metta, Phil 46130 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Upanissaya Paccayo htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, ' Upanissaya paccayo pana tividho hoti. Aarammanupanissayo, anantarupanissayo, pakatupanissayo ceti'. There are 3 sub-conditions under decisive support condition or 'upanissaya paccayo'. They are 1. aarammanupanissaya paccayo or object-decisive-support condition 2. anantarupanissaya paccayo or proximity-decisive-support condition 3. pakatupanissaya paccayo or natural-decisive-support condition 'Tattha aarammanameva garukana.m aarammanupanissayo'. There are objects that should be highly regarded and they are a) 18 'ittha nipphanna ruupas' or 18 desirable conditioned ruupas b) 84 cittas ( after exclusion of 2 dosa muula cittas or 2 aversive consciousness 2 moha muula cittas or ignorant consciousness, 1 dukkha kayavinnana citta; 89 - 5 = 84 cittas) These 5 cittas are not desirable and they are actually undesirable consciousness. c) 47 cetasikas ( 52 - 5 that is dosa, issa, macchariya, kukkucca, moha = 47 ) d) 1 nibbana These 4 dhammas are aarammanaadhipati or object-predominent dhamma and they also serve as 'aarammanupanissaya paccayo' or 'object- decisive-support condition'.. 'Anantara niruddhaa citta cetasikaa dhammaa anantarupanissayo.' With the exception of vanishing 'cuti citta of arahats' all other cittas of 89 cittas and their 52 associates namakkhandhas or mental aggregates all serve as anantarupanissaya paccayo to next arising 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. This is the vanishing consciousness and next arising consciousness do not have any gap and they are in contact and like proximated. 'Raagaadayo pana dhammaa saddhadayo ca sukha.m dukkha.m puggallo bhojana.m utu senaasananca yathaa raham ajjhattanca bahiddhaa ca kusalaadhi dhammaana.m , kamma.m vipaakaananti ca bahudhaa hoti pakatupanissayo.' 1. raaga, dosa, moha, maana, ditthi, pattanaa (sensuous desire, aversion, ignorance, conceit, wrong-view, expectation-attachment 2. saddhaa, siila, suta, caaga, panna (faith, moral-conduct, heaving-heard or well learned, offering, wisdom) 3. kaayika sukha or physical pleasure 4. kaayika dukkha or physical pain 5. puggala to be depended on 6. bhojana or food to be eaten 7. suitable environmental condition of weather 8. suitable abode, bed, places All these dhamma serve as natural-decisive-support condition or pakatupanissaya paccayo for the dhamma of ajjhatta or internal and bahiddha or external of 21 kusala dhamma, 12 akusala dhamma, 36 vipaaka dhamma, 20 kiriya dhamma. 21 kusala dhamma are 1. 8 mahakusala cittas 2. 5 rupakusala cittas or 5 rupa jhaanas 3. 4 arupakusala cittas or 4 aruupa jhaanas 4. 4 lokuttara kusala cittas or 4 magga cittas or 4 path- consciousness ---- 21 kusala cittas 12 akusala dhammas are 12 akusala cittas and they are 8 lobha cittas, 2 dosa cittas, and 2 moha cittas. 36 vipaaka dhamma are 1. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas 2. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas 3. 8 sahetuka mahavipaaka cittas 4. 5 rupavipaaka cittas 5. 4 arupavipaaka cittas 6. 4 lokuttara vipaaka cittas or 4 phala cittas or 4 fruition- consciousness ---- 36 cittas 20 kiriya dhamma are 1. 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas 2. 8 sahetuka mahakiriya cittas 3. 5 rupakiriya cittas 4. 4 arupavipaka cittas ---- 20 kiriya cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: At 'Links' section there is a link to 'Patthana Dhamma'. Now if those pages are passed through there will be page 81. 46131 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:17pm Subject: A short message from Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Nina, Tep , Sukin and all, I will be away for a few days. With much respect, Htoo Naing 46132 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:53pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah (and all other interested members -- please join us) - This is my reply to your message #46097. It seems to me that we are now debating whether the detailed knowledge at the Paramattha- dhamma level -- through Ajahn Sujin's lectures - is absolutely necessary for a practical-minded Buddhist. S: I don't believe it's a question of anyone's words but what can be tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is seen is visible object. That's it. All that's ever heard is sound. All that's ever touched is hardness/ softness/ roughness/ smoothness, heat/cold, motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn't you agree? Tep: Knowing the five external ayatanas down to the Paramattha- dhamma details is not the idea in MN 137 and MN 148. The Buddha never asked those kinds of questions you have asked. What is the use of asking those questions anyway? Can they lead me to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana? I believe the two suttas, MN 137 and MN 147, can. What the Buddha Taught in MN 137 ============================== -- 'The six internal medium(ajjhattika ayatana) should be known'. They are : The eye-medium(cakkhaayatana), the ear-medium, the nose- medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium (manayatana). No detailed information down to the Paramattha level was ever mentioned by the Buddha. -- 'The six external sense-media (baahira ayatana) should be known'. They are: The form-medium(ruupaayatana), the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the idea-medium(dhammaayatana). No details down to the Paramattha level were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The six classes of consciousness should be known'. They are: Eye- consciousness(cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose- consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect- consciousness(mano-vinnana). No details about the 89 cittas are needed to understand this sutta. -- 'The six classes of contact should be known'. They are: Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect- contact. No details down to the Paramattha level were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The eighteen explorations for the intellect should be known'. These are the resulting vedana (somanassa, domanassa and upekkhaa) conditioned by the six classes of contact, 3 times 6 = 18. No Paramattha-dhamma details were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The thirty-six states to which beings are attached should be known'. They are : '(a) Six kinds of household joy & (b) six kinds of renunciation joy; (c) six kinds of household distress & (d) six kinds of renunciation distress; (e) six kinds of household equanimity & (f) six kinds of renunciation equanimity'. These 36 states are the uniqueness of this discourse -- I have not seen them anywhere else. The key ideas of this special sutta are given as follows: abandon & transcend (a) by depending & relying on (b); abandon & transcend (c) by depending & relying on (d); abandon & transcend (e) by depending & relying on (f); abandon & transcend (d) by depending & relying on (b); abandon & transcend (b) by depending & relying on (f). Even the six kinds of profound 'renunciation equanimity' still are 'equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity' that must be eliminated in the next step. You may wish to read the rest of MN 137 yourself. I don't think you may find such excellent teaching anywhere else! What the Buddha Taught in MN 148 ============================= The Buddha said, "Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; I will expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure -- in other words, the six sextets". I don't think those questions you have asked me will ever lead me to the Dhamma which is "admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end" like this discourse. Show me that my belief is wrong, Sarah. Just read the part on "eye & forms", for example, that deals with the whole dependent arisings of all the dhammas emanating from the eye and form all the way to vedana, and shows how the "bhikkhu" should contemplate (or discern) to abandon passion-obsession and resistance-obsession, and finally to uproot ignorance obsession. "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion- obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person -- through abandoning passion- obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing -- would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible". Again, my opinion is that we don't need to apply the Paramattha- dhamma in order to understand and be able to follow the teaching of this sutta. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Phul) > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > S: <..>Perhaps you mean, > > `Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view'?? > > > > T: I meant ditthupadana. > .... > S: Thank you for clarifying. This is of course one of the four kinds of > clinging – clinging to (wrong) views. > > [Phil, yes, upaadaana is a stronger kind of craving (tanhaa). The 4 kinds > of upaadaana are: > 1) kaamupaadaana – sensuous clinging > 2) di.t.tupaadaana – clinging to (wrong) views > 3) siilabbatupaadaana – clinging to rites and rituals > 4) atta-vaadupaadaana – clinging to personality belief.] > ***** > > S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. > > > > Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: > > 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? > > 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? > <...> > > T: <...> > > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what > > the > > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). > > > > This issue is not easy to be resolved, Sarah. > ... > S: I don't believe it's a question of anyone's words but what can be > tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is > seen is visible object. That's it. All that's ever heard is sound. All > that's ever touched is hardness/softness/roughness/smoothness, heat/cold, > motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn't you agree? > > I agree that we should pay very good attention to what is taught in the > suttas. Are we taught that anything else is seen, heard and so on? I don't > think so. Just briefly from the suttas you raise: > > MN137, Salayatana Vibhanga Sutta > `On seeing a form with the eye....' > `On hearing a sound with the eye....' > `On smelling an odour with the nose...' > `On tasting a flavour with the tongue...' > `On touching a tangible with the body...' > `'On cognizing a mind-object...' > ..... > MN148 Chachakka Sutta > " `The six external bases should be understood'......There are the > form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the > tangible-base, and the mind-object base....' > .... > Let me pause there and wait for any further clarification from you of > which aspects in these suttas you believe are at variance with the answers > to the questions I raised concerning paramattha dhammas. I'd be happy to > discuss these suttas further with you to try and iron out any different > understandings. > ..... 46133 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 6:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka Evan_Stamato... Cosmique, I finally found the book. It is called "Controversy at Panadura or Panadura Vadaya" by Hemanta Perera and reedited by Pranath Abhayasundara. It is published by The State Printing Corporation, Colombo 01, Sri Lanka. The debate took place between the Ven. Mohottiwatte Gunananda and the Rev. David Silva. You may find others in Sri Lanka. From what I gather this event is of great national pride so there should be a lot more material available in Sri Lanka that you just can't get in other countries. Hope this helps, Metta, Evan 46134 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo - It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" like those non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. Karuna, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Nina, Tep , Sukin and all, > > I will be away for a few days. > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing 46135 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 10:08pm Subject: Thank you Htoo and thank--- foamflowers Sarah thank you for the wonderful feed back on my adventure into 'Grandma Land,' this weekend I will have to time to answer back with some caring time so I can respond thoughtfully or is it mindfully?. And of course thank you Evan, Bhikku Ekamuni, Andrew, Ken, Sukinder, Nina, Tep, Larry, Phil, Connie, James, Howard, and many more wonderful people, I have lost your names on my name list but have I kept many notes from your posts, thank you so much for your efforts. I think it takes courage to put thoughts out for other people to take apart and then be able to respond with grace...there is much grace here on DSG. I've only had time to read the post lately and reflect on many of them. Between two jobs and my evening job has been short staffed of late, I've filled in to take the pressure of my boss who is working way to many hours, I've been really busy helping him. Now I can take a little breather and show my gratitude towards all of the work done here by such wonderful Dhamma People. I truly have enjoyed the posts, one and all! Htoo I would some day like to meet those old men you mentioned in some your post, the ones you seek dhamma advice from. Are they elderly Bikkhus? I don't know if I have anything to say or ask of them but I would like to meditate with you and your friends someday. It will have to be quick since you said they are in their 80's and 90's. Would they meditate with a woman if they are Bhikkus? I do not know much about monastic rules from your part of the world. I promise I'm asking because I just don't know the rules... Here are some is some of my study on Vendana: 1. In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavini, on commentator said, 'vedayati, arammananubhavanarasam anubhavati'ti vedana'. It is the feeling of an object that is called vedana. The feeling that is able to determine whether an object is good or bad, pleasant or unpleasant; neither good nor bad, neither pleasant nor unpleasant is called vedana. From the arammananubhavana, there are three kinds of vedana, sukhavedana (pleasant feeling), dukkhavedana (unpleasant feeling), adukkhamasukhavedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling). This is spoken of in the Dhammasangani of Abhidhammapitaka from the Buddha's mouth. 1. cakkhusamphassaja vedana arises (or could I use triggered, manifests or comes up?) when the eye comes in contact with a visual object) 2. sotasamphassaja vedana (arises when the ear comes in contact with a sound) 3. ghanasamphassaja vedana (arises when the nose comes in contact with a smell) 4. jivhasamphassaja vedana (arises when the tongue comes in contact with a taste) 5. kayasamphassaja vedana (arises when the physical body comes in contact with a tangible object) 6. manosamphassaja vedana (arises when the mind comes in contact with a mental object) These six kinds of vedana are referred to in the Majjhima Nikaya text and also the Chachakkasutta and I guess many others as well. These vedana of three, five, six and so on, are nothing but cetaskika (mental concomitants) with each and every citta(mind or consciousness) that arise from moment to moment. Like vedana, there are six other cetasikas that arise, that follow along with the mind or consciousness. Each of these seven cetasikas are also known as sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, are involved with all kinds of mind or consciousness. There are seven sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, vedana is the second cetasika. Also there are five khandhas-rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha. Vedana is the second Khanda of the above mentioned five. Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). In the Pathamaja Sutta, Mahasalhayatanika Sutta, Samadhi Sutta, and from references I found many other suttas that also mention this, there are five objects of vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). There are five pasadarupa (sensitive corporeality) such as cakkhupasada and so on, one of these five being the first object of Vipassana meditation. Also included there are five objects such as visible objects and one of one of the five being the second object. There are five consciousnesses such as cakkhuvinnana(eye consciousness) and one of these five consciousnesses being the third object. Phassa (contact) cetasika is the fourth object. Vedana cetasika is the fifth object. Vedana is the fifth object of the five. Vedana plays a large part in tanha (Dependent Origination?). When tanha is triggered it is because of sensation or vedana, which brings with it upadana, bhava and jati close behind it, I read they usually follow and there is no controling this force once tanha has been triggered or manifested or arisen (which is a better word to use?) So if tanha, which belongs to samudayasacca (2nd Noble Truth), is not cut, like cutting away the root of a weed, all that follows will become dukkhasacca (1st Noble Truth) that is everything that is born and passes away and will suffer from grief, sorrow, pain and despair from this cycle of birth and decay. Question: Is Vedana the cause of tanha or is it the cause of panna? Samahito sampajano, sato Buddhassa savako Vedana ca pajanati, vedananam ca sambhavam. Yattha ceta nirujjhanti, Maggam ca khayagaminam Vedananam khaya, bhikkhu nicchato parinibbuto ti. Samyutta-nikaya IV A follower of the Buddha, with concentration, awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, knows with wisdom the sensations, their arising, their cessation and the path leading to their end. A meditator who has reached the end of all sensations (stage of Nibbana) is freed from craving, fully liberated. Concomitants: something that happens with something else and is connected with it With Metta, Lisa 46136 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Greetings egberdina Hi all, In short, I'm back again :-) For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have their areas of interest :-) For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do anything out of the ordinary to delay it. I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Kind Regards Herman 46137 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 9:26pm Subject: Re: What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It egberdina Hideho Howard, Sorry for posting on top. I liked your post very much. It prompted me to write. I too have been pre-occupied with this business of knowing of late. Very complex indeed. Following on from your comments re indirect processing, I am sure there is an object-free kind of knowing. To explain my point, I am hoping that others will be familiar with the experience of knowing that you know something, without knowing the specific details. Conversely, there is also the experience of knowing that you don't know something. If someone were to ask me what the postcode of Blayney is, I would know that I know it, without knowing it's detail, and be able to come up with the precise answer shortly afterwards. Conversely, I know that I do not know the postcode(s) of Long Island, and would not bother trying to remember. It seems to me, that at any point of time, there is a constantly changing web of background context knowing, that knows what is known and not known, free of specific characteristics. I think this is very relevant to Buddhism. Without Nibbana Buddhism has nothing to offer anyone. I would qualify as a setting in which Nibbana can be "known" any scenario in which there is no background knowing. When social behaviours, rules of language, rules of thinking fall away not only as foreground, but as background as well, then relationless "consciousness" has an opportunity to know itself, so to speak. Ah, to be a sessile sea anemone :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Just a brief thought that occurred to me while on vacation: Let us > consider a single mindstate - for example, a state of seeing. What is involved in > that visual object? As I understand it to be the case, that experiential object > is an entire palette of varying colors and intensities of color and brightness > at varying "locations". There are also relational patterns among the parts of > that object, quite intricate in their complexity. All that is there, but > isn't known at all in detail but only as a unity. It takes enormous subsequent > mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probably not to carve out, > characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, > let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. What > that processing reveals was there to begin with but only implicit in the original > mindstate. Perhaps in an advanced ariyan developed wisdom can directly grasp > all the details without additional processing, but for worldlings and lesser > ariyans, without the subsequent processing some of which we must properly think > of as elementary, proto-conceptual processing, most of the factual detail of > our experience would be missing. My point, then, is not to be too quick to > turn up our noses at the cognitive, "indirect" processing that is in constant > operation. Without it, we would each be much like what David Kalupahana, quoting > William James, likes to call a sessile sea anemone. > > With metta, > Howard > 46138 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 10:29pm Subject: The Prison of Pride ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Catastrophic Conceit 'I Am' : All the egoism is born right when assuming impersonal and transient phenomena, such as body, feeling, perception, mental construction, & consciousness to be 'I-Me-Mine, thereby conceiving the idea: 'I am'! At once hereafter one falls desperately in love with this hypothetical ego, exalts and gratifies & even worships it, as the dearest possession of all !!! Pride is born right here. By comparing this non-existent entity: 'My Personal Identity' with external equally conceived perceptions, one erroneously concludes: 'I Am! Better than ...'... Arrogance is born there! Or one concludes equally erroneously: 'I Am! Worse than or Equal to...' When there is pride, there is bound to be wounded pride! Because of that I-construing, ego-love & self-overestimation, one cannot respect what should be respected. Feeling threatened by any realistic evaluation of this adored 'ego', all potential 'critics' or 'competitors' are violently repressed... By clinging to this cherished idea of 'Myself', harming, hate, ill-will, and violence thereby come into being. Even wars are initiated by immature & infantile imagination of 'Own Greatness' or 'National Lead'! Thus more than fatal is verily this cramped conceit that 'I Am this & that'! Serene joy is however connected with open, free & detached impersonality. If there is no 'I', no 'Me', what then to be proud of, & violently defend ? As the blessed Buddha said: Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desire. Blissful is dwelling in complete harmlessness. Blissful is solitude for one content & learned. But best is the bliss of uprooting the conceit 'I am'! Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 Frequent reflection on the impermanent & transient flux of all internal and external phenomena, leads towards this counter-intuitive yet crucial comprehension of the fact of 'No-Self'... Quite Freeing that indeed is... Sabbe Dhamma Anatta ... All States are Selfless !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46139 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: Greetings christine_fo... G'day Herman, :-) Haven't been around much myself over the last six months or more ... just reading posts when I can, and a very occasional scribble on dsg. I owe a few people posts and will try to make amends. Nice to see you here again ... you were missed. Now .. be gentle with everyone ;-) metta and karuna, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) > > For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male > married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming > more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as > found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have > their areas of interest :-) > > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be > a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do > not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do > anything out of the ordinary to delay it. > > I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 46140 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:13am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah (and Nina), I have finished reading `Realities and Concepts' by K. Sujin and my comments are related to your discussion. I have some comments and notes about this reading which I will insert into this discussion because I don't wish to start a seperate thread. Following Tep's method of summarizing points, I will summarize what I agreed with and disagreed with from K. Sujin's article: AGREED POINTS: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) DISAGREED POINTS: 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. 2.`Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. Metta, James 46141 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings jonoabb Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) Welcome back ;-)) > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be > a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do > not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do > anything out of the ordinary to delay it. Sorry to hear about your recent depression. For one who leaves this life having developed awareness and understanding, no matter how little, the day of death is indeed a better one than the day of birth. > I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Birth is suffering, but birth as a human being with the opportunity of hearing the teachings is a very rare and fortunate opportunity. Fortunate suffering, sublime cruelty. Take care Jon 46142 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:18am Subject: There are Arhats today dacostacharles Hi all, I spoke with one of my Theravadan teachers (an old monk from the Tai forest tradition). He said there are Arhats today, we just don't know who they are. This is because we can never know every thing that goes on in the mind of another, so only the individual can know if he or she has reached that level. After the talk, I began to understand that it is unimportant if this person or that person is an Arhant. For individual, what should be most important is "where you are now" (i.e., which level) and how can you progress. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 46143 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 4:11am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 205 - Zeal/chanda (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As regards the kåmåvacara sobhana cittas, they are always accompanied by chanda. Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is accompanied by chanda which is zeal for kusala, which desires to act in the wholesome way. It searches for the object the kusala citta cognizes and it assists the kusala citta in carrying out its task. One may wonder what the difference is between kusala chanda and kusala cetanå which “wills” kusala. Kusala cetanå is the wholesome intention, kamma, which can motivate a wholesome action and which is able to produce its result later on. Moreover, kusala cetanå directs the accompanying dhammas in carrying out their functions in a wholesome way. Thus, its characteristic and function is different from the characteristic and function of chanda. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46144 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & Nina, I hope you both read this on your return too! --- htootintnaing wrote: > Nina wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path > factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more > texts. ... S: I have a passage I'd marked (and forgotten about)in 'Dispeller' (Sammohavinodanii) which clearly confirms Nina's explanation of the Vsim Tiika comments with regard to lokuttara cittas arising without sammaasankappa when 2nd-5th jhanas are used as basis: Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: "This is the distinction according to determining by the jhaana which is the basis [for insight]. According to determining by the jhaana which is the basis [for insight], firstly in an obtainer of the first jhaana who is employing insight after emerging from the first jhaana, the path which arises is of the first jhaana. But here the path factors and the enlightenment factors are complete. "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the second jhaana is of the second jhaana. Here the path factors are seven.* "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the third jhaana is of the third jhaana; but here the path factors are seven and the enlightenment factors six.** "So also from one emerging from the fourth jhaana up to one emerging from the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception." footnotes: *"Owing to absence of sa"nkappa,since vitakka is absent in the second jhaana." **"Through absence of piiti in the third jhaana." ..... S: Besides this interesting point about when the Noble Eightfold Path becomes a Noble Sevenfold Path in effect, I think these passages from the commentaries make it very clear that jhaanas of differnt levels are not always the basis for enlightenment as many suggest. Indeed the Vism passage I quoted the other day (XX1, 112) clearly differentiated between a) the path arisen in a sukkha-vipassaka (dry-insight worker), b)that arisen in 'one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made jhana the basis for insight', and c)'the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight' and so on. Following on from that passage, the text(113) also refers to the seven path factors when 'paths are made to arise using the second, third, and fourth jhanas in the fivefold reckoning as the basis for insight'. It stresses that whether there then be four, three or two jhana factors, 'in each case, however, the path factors number seven...' I hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ========= 46145 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/28/05 2:46:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, In short, I'm back again :-) ------------------------------------ Howard: Which sure pleases me! Welcome back, my friend!! :-) ------------------------------------ For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have their areas of interest :-) For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. --------------------------------- Howard: I hope that the emphasis here is on "coming out of"! --------------------------------- Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do anything out of the ordinary to delay it. I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Kind Regards Herman ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46146 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings sarahprocter... Hi Herman, I know you don't like a fuss or any red carpet treatment, but I'd also like to briefly join the chorus of your friends and say how glad I am to see you around again. --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) ... > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. ... S: Here's hoping that the Dhamma sharing, the good humour and warm friendship here will assist too. Look forward to your reflections and wit too, Herman. Metta, Sarah p.s. hope the family are all well... =================================== 46147 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/28/05 2:46:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hideho Howard, Sorry for posting on top. I liked your post very much. It prompted me to write. I too have been pre-occupied with this business of knowing of late. Very complex indeed. Following on from your comments re indirect processing, I am sure there is an object-free kind of knowing. To explain my point, I am hoping that others will be familiar with the experience of knowing that you know something, without knowing the specific details. -------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps that is just a fuzzy knowing? A vague recollection that is sufficient for current purposes? ------------------------------- Conversely, there is also the experience of knowing that you don't know something. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's so. Possibly it's a matter of making a quick "scan" and coming up empty. ----------------------------------- If someone were to ask me what the postcode of Blayney is, I would know that I know it, without knowing it's detail, and be able to come up with the precise answer shortly afterwards. Conversely, I know that I do not know the postcode(s) of Long Island, and would not bother trying to remember. It seems to me, that at any point of time, there is a constantly changing web of background context knowing, that knows what is known and not known, free of specific characteristics. I think this is very relevant to Buddhism. Without Nibbana Buddhism has nothing to offer anyone. ------------------------------------ Howard: I completely agree. ----------------------------------- I would qualify as a setting in which Nibbana can be "known" any scenario in which there is no background knowing. When social behaviours, rules of language, rules of thinking fall away not only as foreground, but as background as well, then relationless "consciousness" has an opportunity to know itself, so to speak. Ah, to be a sessile sea anemone :-) ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I see that as a counterfeit, mediocre state compared to the Buddhist goal. ------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ======================= With metta and pleasure at having you back on DSG, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46148 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:36am Subject: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Discussion buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - The knowledge of cleansing (cognizance from imperfections or uppakilesas) actually starts with the last six imperfections in Section ii, namely: 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past breaths is attacked by distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future breaths is an obstruction to concentration. (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an obstruction to concentration. (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and is an obstruction to concentration. (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to concentration. (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to concentration. [end of excerpt] So these six imperfections of cognizance prevent it from becoming united, because they make cognizance(citta) "disquieted, perturbed and excited". They can be eliminated by means of the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing as follows. 1 - 6. Avoiding distracted thoughts of the past and future breaths; avoiding indolence by exertion; abandoning agitation by curbing the over-exertion; abandoning greed by full awareness of enticed cognizance; abandoning ill-will by full awareness of repelled cognizance. 7 - 10. Four unities are established by means of : an act of giving (dana); a nimitta in concentration; an insight gained from vaya lakkhana; a nirodha in the path. 11 - 13. The united cognizance then: enters into "purification of the way"; gains higher equanimity; is gladdened by the insight. The next important thing is the parahraphs 19 - 23 that is used again and again to describe the common characteristics of the four jhanas, the four immaterial jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and the four ariya- maggas. What are these common characteristics? -- purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. -- in that (1) cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, (2) cognizance makes way for the central state of equilibrium, which is the sign of serenity(samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, (3) cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way is the beginning. -- in that he now (1) looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and (2) looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity(samatha) and (3) looks on with equanimity(upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity(ekatta), that intensification of equanimity is the middle. -- The end has four characteristics:(1) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas(dhamma) arisen therein; (2) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function ; (3) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy(viriya) was effective; (4) encouragement in the sense of repetition. -- Cognizance possesses the above ten characteristics (3 + 3 + 4) also possesses the five jhana factors and steadiness(adhitthaana) as well as the five faculties and powers. Respectfully yours, Tep ===== 46149 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:41am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - I am grateful to all helps I have so far received from Dr. Han Tun, who is very resourceful in handling difficult Pali words. He has the original Pali text of the Patisambhidamagga and its Burmese and English translations, while I have the Thai version (and limited Pali knowledge). Whenever Han has read my new post and given me an advice on the Pali translation and other useful thoughts, I will post his message here in this "Han Tun's Contribution" thread. Respectfully, Tep ======================== From: han tun Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:32 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 (message # 962) Dear Tep, Here are paragraphs 19 to 23. 19. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the first jhana? Of the first jhana purification of the way (patipadaa visuddhi) is the beginning, intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle, and encouragement (sampahansanaa) is the end. [Han: The end part needs explanation. At the end of paragraph 18 the Pali word is sampahansitam which is translated as satisfaction. Here in paragraph 19, the Pali word is sampahansanaa which is translated as encouragement. Sampahansitam and sampahansanaa are grammatical inflections of the same word, namely, sampahansita. In Burmese translation it is translated as `gladdening.' So, you see that the same Pali word is translated as satisfaction, encouragement and in Burmese translation as gladdening. Again, the Pali word sampahansita itself is a compound word. You cannot find it in Dictionary as it is. You have to break it down into sama + pahansita. Sama means calm, tranquil; pahansita means gladdened, happy, delighted. So, the reader can select the translation which he/she likes best.] 20. Of the first jhana purification of the way (patipadaa visuddhi) is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: (i) cognizance is purified of obstructions to that [jhana]; (paripantho cittam visujjhati) paripantha = obstacle, obstruction; visujjhati = cleansed, purified. (ii) because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity (samatha nimitta); (visuddhattaa cittam samatha nimittam patipajjati) visuddhattaa = after being purified; patipajjati = to enter upon, to make way. (iii) because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state. (patipannattaa cittam pakkhandati) patipanna = reaching, getting along, making way; patipannattaa = having made the way; pakkhandati = enter. And in that cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of quilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity (samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way (patipadaa-visuddhi) is the beginning of the first jhana. These are the three characteristics of the beginning. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the beginning (aadi kalyaana), which possesses [three] characteristics. aadi = beginning; kalyaana = good. 21. Of the first jhana intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle: how many characteristics has the middle? The middle has three characteristics: (iv) he looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified; (visuddham cittam ajjhupekkhati) ajjhupekkhati = to look on with equanimity. (v) he looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity; (samatha patipannam ajjhupekkhati) (vi) he looks on with equanimity at the establishment of unity. (ekattupatthanam ajjhupekkhati) ekatta = unity; upatthana = ministering, establishing. And in that he [now] looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity (samatha) and looks on with equanimity (upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity (ekatta), that intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle of the first jhana. These are three characteristics of the middle. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the middle (majjhe kalyaana), which possesses [three] characteristics. Majjha = middle; kalyaana = good. 22. Of the first jhana encouragement (sampahansanaa) is the end: how many characteristics has the end? The end has four characteristics: (vii) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas (dhamma) arisen therein; (jaataanam dhammanam anativattanatthena sampahansanaa) jaati = arise; ana= non; ativatta or ativattati = surpassed, excess. Already explained about sampahansanaa. (viii) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function (rasa = taste); (indriya ekarasatthena sampahansanaa) eka rasa means one function. Not one taste. (ix) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy (viriya) was effective; (viriya vahatthena sampahansanaa) (x) encouragement in the sense of repetition; (aasevanatthena sampahansanaa) aasevana = repetition are the encouragement (sampahansanaa) in the end of the first jhana. These are the four characteristics of the end. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the end (pariyosaana kalyaana), which possesses [four] characteristics. pariyosaana = end; kalyaana = good. 23. Cognizance that has reached the triple cycle [of beginning, middle and end] thus and is good in the three ways and possesses the ten characteristics also possesses [the five jhana factors of] applied- thought (vitakka) and sustained-thought (vicara) and happiness (piti) and pleasure (sukkha) and steadiness (adhitthaana) as well as [the five faculties and powers of] faith (saddha) and energy (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) and concentration (samaadhi) and understanding (panna). [sukkha is to be spelled with only one `k' = sukha] ----------------------------------- With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han (Attn.: interested SD members) - > > The new Pali words are great! I have put them in my > notebook so that > they can be used in my future posts. > ================================== 46150 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo, The teachings resented in the Wheel of life (some say samsara instead of life) span several levels of understanding. So any one conept (e.g., the 12 links in a chain -- DO) can be explained in different ways to people of different understandings. What you have to keep in mind is the purposes of all the teachings, even at the different levels: to explain the cycle of suffering and the way to end the cycle (i.e., with morality, wisdom, and concentration). Therefore the symbols are the same. The interpretation changes. Also, the one life time interpretation is the oldest. In that interpretation you were reincarnated due to "your" karma. Arhants are not reincarnated because they did not have any karma to burn off. Keep in mind that the earliest form of Buddhism was just a re-interpretation of Hinduism. Infact Hindus still consider Buddhism a sect (branch) of Hinduism or early Indian Thought. You already know the links (the 12 is birth to death caused by attachment gives rise to ignorance in the next life. I have to go will finish later. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 23:59 Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Charles, I am not clear. Could you please give examples in both cases? With respect, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > There is only one difference between M to M DO and 3 Life times DO, it is the length of time the events can last. The events/processes listed are the same. <.....> 46151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 6:21am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear message. Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah (and Nina), > > I have finished reading `Realities and Concepts' by K. Sujin and my > comments are related to your discussion. I have some comments and > notes about this reading which I will insert into this discussion > because I don't wish to start a seperate thread. > > Following Tep's method of summarizing points, I will summarize what I > agreed with and disagreed with from K. Sujin's article: > > AGREED POINTS: > 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. > 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. > 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes > can be > 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects > 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based > 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) > > DISAGREED POINTS: > 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. > Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this > thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings > don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, > but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in > the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined > `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. > 2.`Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a > sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in > order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her > statements that beings and people don't exist. > 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice > of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold > Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. > > Metta, > James 46152 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Tep & all) - In a message dated 5/28/05 9:22:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear message. Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ============================ I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those points were as follows: _______________________ 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. ----------------------------------------------- With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? The analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of demonstrating the emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is what the khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. Certainly there is a convention to speak of beings, but what is conventional speech is frequently not literal speech. As far as I'm concerned, no being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful shorthand speech. It is speech involving well-grounded concepts, that is, it is the expression of thinking that groups together genuinely related experiences. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46153 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:11am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Howard, > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows I will respond to your post off-list sometime later (and I don't wish for you to share it on-list- I don't want these matters to escalate any more than they have already.) Metta, James 46154 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/28/05 10:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows I will respond to your post off-list sometime later (and I don't wish for you to share it on-list- I don't want these matters to escalate any more than they have already.) -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll be happy to discuss this and any other stuff offlist. I don't consider any of this to be "personal," but just a matter of differing Dhamma interpretations and attempts by all of us to arrive at a better understanding of what is what. In any case, speaking offlist will be fine, and whatever we discuss privately will, of course, remain completely private. -------------------------------------------- Metta, James ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - [Reply to #46152] It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. Now let me continue this discussion with Howard. I don't have to keep on reminding us that this is for knowledge and possibly for adjusting our viewpoints to get closer and closer to the Truths, right? Howard, your disagreement with James' disagreed points 1 and 3 does not seem like a disagreement to me : It is partly a complementary view that comes from another angle (like those of the 10 blind men and the elephant?). Let's put a spotlight on both. James' Highlighted Disagreed Points ------------------------------------------------------- -- #1: It is wrong to say self = beings = 'people who are seen', because there is "no self". So there are no beings. "...most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates". -- #3: One must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila. James' Explanation Why He Disagrees with K. Sujin ============================================ -- #1: The no self view is radical because it follows that the Anatta principle says that beings don't exist. -- #3: The viewpoint that says "there is a person who observes dana and sila" contradicts with the "no self" view. Howard's Explanation Why He Disagrees with James ============================================= -- #1: No being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". -- #3: Beings/persons are speech involving well-ground concepts. In other words, panatti. Tep's Attempted Explanation Why Howard's View Does Not Totally Contradict with James' ======================================== #1 : You state that beings/persons is defined by "fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams" that are "viewed as units". This is the same as saying that beings/persons are defined by the five aggregates that are anatta. James also cited the five aggregates (see above). So there is no contradiction. #3 : Saying like you have said (i.e. beings/persons are pannatti) does not have anything to do with James' point #3, which is about why the "no self" view contradicts with the person who observes dana and sila. Please correct me if I have stuck out my turtle's neck too far again. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Tep & all) - > > In a message dated 5/28/05 9:22:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - > > I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED > POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with > respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear > message. > > Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who > disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way > peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > Tep > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows: > _______________________ (snipped) > > With metta, > Howard > 46156 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > I'll be happy to discuss this and any other stuff offlist. I don't > consider any of this to be "personal," but just a matter of differing Dhamma > interpretations and attempts by all of us to arrive at a better understanding of what > is what. In any case, speaking offlist will be fine, and whatever we discuss > privately will, of course, remain completely private. > -------------------------------------------- Thanks for understanding. Yeah, it is nothing personal- I just don't feel comfortable talking about this subject too much on this list. K. Sujin is a rather sacred cow here to some members and I don't want to upset them. Discussing these matters in detail is going to upset them- and it won't enlighten them one single bit (been there, done that). This is the New "brown rice and tofu" James who doesn't mind stating what is on his mind on occasion, but doesn't want to push it and provoke others with his views. I have nothing to prove. Metta, James Ps. Give me a while because I have school work to finish tonight. Thanks 46157 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/28/05 11:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - [Reply to #46152] It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, Tep. I wouldn't do that without James' permission. -------------------------------------------- Now let me continue this discussion with Howard. I don't have to keep on reminding us that this is for knowledge and possibly for adjusting our viewpoints to get closer and closer to the Truths, right? Howard, your disagreement with James' disagreed points 1 and 3 does not seem like a disagreement to me : It is partly a complementary view that comes from another angle (like those of the 10 blind men and the elephant?). Let's put a spotlight on both. James' Highlighted Disagreed Points ------------------------------------------------------- -- #1: It is wrong to say self = beings = 'people who are seen', because there is "no self". So there are no beings. "...most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates". -- #3: One must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila. James' Explanation Why He Disagrees with K. Sujin ============================================ -- #1: The no self view is radical because it follows that the Anatta principle says that beings don't exist. -- #3: The viewpoint that says "there is a person who observes dana and sila" contradicts with the "no self" view. Howard's Explanation Why He Disagrees with James ============================================= -- #1: No being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". -- #3: Beings/persons are speech involving well-ground concepts. In other words, panatti. Tep's Attempted Explanation Why Howard's View Does Not Totally Contradict with James' ======================================== #1 : You state that beings/persons is defined by "fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams" that are "viewed as units". This is the same as saying that beings/persons are defined by the five aggregates that are anatta. James also cited the five aggregates (see above). So there is no contradiction. #3 : Saying like you have said (i.e. beings/persons are pannatti) does not have anything to do with James' point #3, which is about why the "no self" view contradicts with the person who observes dana and sila. Please correct me if I have stuck out my turtle's neck too far again. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Please forgive me, Tep, for being unwilling to discuss James' views onlist when he has indicated a desire not to. I'm sorry. I'm afraid the list will have to make do with what I have already expressed on this matter. ------------------------------------------ Sincerely, Tep ======================== With metta and respect, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46158 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... buddhistmedi... Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/28/05 11:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - > [Reply to #46152] > > It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share > your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry, Tep. I wouldn't do that without James' permission. > -------------------------------------------- (snipped) > Howard: > Please forgive me, Tep, for being unwilling to discuss James' views > onlist when he has indicated a desire not to. I'm sorry. I'm afraid the list will > have to make do with what I have already expressed on this matter. > ------------------------------------------ > 46159 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/28/05 3:27:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever related matters you wish to express I will be very happy to discuss. I would rather leave aside James' point of view, however, because that is his wish. -------------------------------------------- But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for your understanding. ---------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46160 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: Greetings egberdina Hi everybody, Thank you all very much for your kind words. They are much appreciated. The family are all doing just fine (in worldly terms :-)). Thanks again and kind regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I know you don't like a fuss or any red carpet treatment, but I'd also > like to briefly join the chorus of your friends and say how glad I am to > see you around again. > --- Egbert wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > In short, I'm back again :-) > ... > > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > ... > S: Here's hoping that the Dhamma sharing, the good humour and warm > friendship here will assist too. Look forward to your reflections and wit > too, Herman. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s. hope the family are all well... > =================================== 46161 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Andrew L, Sorry for the delay. Back to our conversation: ----------------------------- KH: > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. ................ A: > Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. ----------------------------- No one could argue with that - except to say that the Buddha taught much more. Without ever hearing a word of Dhamma, people can understand that sort of morality, but we have to understand it from the perspective of the Middle Way. ------------------------------------------------------------ A: > The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' ------------------------------------------------------------- The time to start working (i.e., developing right understanding) is now. There is no self who has control, which makes it hard to talk about 'starting' work - or 'doing' anything - but that is something that can be understood, now. ------------- A: > I'll offer you this from the Maha-Mangala (SN II.4) sutta to reply to your claim that the Buddha didn't want us to disrupt our daily routines. A deity addresses the Buddha: =================================================== Many devas and humans beings give thought to protection, desiring well-being. Tell, then, the highest protection. =================================================== The Buddha then goes on to list such activities as: =================================================== Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection. =================================================== He then goes on to list about 30 more conditions, and ends the sutta with: =================================================== Everywhere undefeated when >acting in this way<, (emphasis mine) people go everywhere in well-being: This is their highest protection. ----------- I agree; those are the activities that lead to insight, which leads to destruction of the defilements. And destruction of the defilements constitutes protection in the highest (ultimate) sense. By understanding that teaching here and now we are already engaged in the activities it describes. But we have to understand the teaching in the way it was meant. If we understand it in the conventional manner, will it lead us to do those things? Remember, we have already had the same message drummed into us at home, at school and elsewhere for most of our lives. The way it was taught by the Buddha is not the conventional way. He taught anatta, and so we have to understand the point Phil was making - i.e., there are only dhammas. The Middle Way is travelled whenever one of those dhammas (namely, panna (right understanding)) directly knows one of the other dhammas. ------------------------------ A: > I guess there's the possibility that Bhikkhu Bodhi just recommended it for us to work with, not for us to follow to the letter. It's hard to reconcile this sutta with other instructions like to contemplate the four foundations of mindfulness. ------------------------------- The Sigala Sutta describes the perfect conduct noble disciples have towards others. Having studied the Dhamma, we know how the noble ones came to be that way: it was by practising the Buddha's teaching of satipatthana. Satipatthana is the practice of knowing dhammas as they arise. You might say we know dhammas by sitting quietly and meditating, but that is where we disagree. The way to know them is to hear and study the Buddha's teaching - starting with Abhidhamma. ------------------- <. . .> A: > I want my daily life to be based around practise, to be practise. Didn't the Buddha say he revealed a "holy life, utterly perfect and pure?" As far as one can practise this life as a layperson, I would like to. -------------------- Me too, but the practice starts and ends with knowledge of conditionality - Abhidhamma. Conditionality is everywhere and in all things. Even our desires and aspirations are conditioned - there is no controlling self. Whenever we see that - regardless of the conventional situation - we are living the holy life. Ken H 46162 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Tep: "Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. " Hi Tep, Howard, and James, Tep, I disagree with your agreements and disagreements, Howard's agreements and disagreements, and James' agreements and disagreements. If James doesn't want to discuss the points he himself raised, that's fine. But they are common points shared by many people, so I think we can and should discuss them. Please discuss. reading with interest (but disagreement), Larry 46163 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:22pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Howard, Well, it looks like I am going to cause more upset feelings if I don't discuss the issues you raised on-list rather than if I do. So here goes: Howard: With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? James: 1. The Buddha didn't teach that metaphor 2. It is only a metaphor and lacks detailed analysis on which to base conclusions. Howard, I have posted many times about that metaphor and how it really isn't a teaching about anatta because it is far too simplistic. It was spoken by an arahant nun as a retort to Mara. Like most retorts, it contains a kernel of truth but it was mostly spoken to confound, confuse, and chase Mara away- should that be taken as a dhamma teaching? (Many people grab onto that metaphor because it is easy to comprehend; however, true anatta isn't easy to comprehend.) Howard: The analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of demonstrating the emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is what the khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. James: There isn't any analytical approach taken there. It is a metaphor! The Buddha taught that most people in the world want to think about what exists and what doesn't exist, but the Buddha taught the Middle Path: Dependent Origination. Beings only exist dependently. You, and K. Sujin, may say that that means they don't really exist- but I find that position to be too simplistic. There isn't going to be an easy metaphor to encapsulate the dependent origination of beings or the Buddha would have spoken it. Howard: As far as I'm concerned, no being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable James: Not even if I send the FBI to find him? ;-) (just kidding) Howard: but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". James: You're forgetting that gorgeous body that is also viewed as "Howard". ;-)) As the Buddha taught, beings are classified as the five clinging aggregates- when there is present clinging to the aggregates, there is a being. That is dependent origination- dependent on this, that arises. It doesn't do anyone any good to say that there isn't a being present when there is clinging: it just confuses the matter. Howard: As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful shorthand speech. James: No, beings are not just a matter of conventional speech. Beings exist when there is clinging to the five aggregates. For instance, someone could say that beings don't exist, only atoms exist- then someone else would say that no, only neutrons, protons, electrons exist- then someone else would say, no, only particle-waves exist- then someone else would say no, only energy superstrings exist, etc. What would be the point of all that? I believe that the secret to anatta is to realize that everything, from beings to rocks to planets to dhammas, only exist conditionally. Metta, James 46164 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Tep & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Tep, I disagree with your agreements and disagreements, Howard's > agreements and disagreements, and James' agreements and disagreements. > If James doesn't want to discuss the points he himself raised, that's > fine. But they are common points shared by many people, so I think we > can and should discuss them. Please discuss. > > reading with interest (but disagreement), .... S: :-)) Oh Larry, there must be one point at least in one of their agreements or disagreements that you agree with or agree to disagree with or agree to disagree about agreeing with...:/ Anyway, I agree with the value of discussing them further and am also reading with interest....Please clarify and discuss on too. Metta, Sarah needing a rest after some big waves today.....:-) p.s Tep & all, thx for your post and sutta quotes -- look f/w to discussing further in the next day or two. ======== 46165 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello Phil, and all, My apologies for the delay in replying to your posts of the 18 May ... I've added the links to refresh your memory :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45661 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45662 I really enjoy your posts and reflect a lot on some of your remarks and suggestions. Getting pen to paper, or rather fingers to keyboard, seems to be part and parcel of the problem over the last months ... no sticking power ... It is what it is, I suppose ... can't whip up enthusiasm, or energy, or whatever it is that is missing currently. How different to a year ago, when I could have been in danger of writing too much, and when some friends thought my interest in Buddhism was a little too intense and, maybe, unhealthy.... I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This is probably where the questioning about something standing behind the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and Ultimate Reality - comes from ... It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. Still hanging in there, but barely, metta, Chris 46166 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/28/2005 10:55:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. Still hanging in there, but barely, metta, Chris The Buddha clearly was not interested in answering question dealing with the "origin of the universe." As far as the origin of life goes, it may be reasonable to deduce that it evolved from the way the 4 Great Elements interact with each other ... and such a conclusion can be extrapolated from the Suttas within reason IMO. Things in the universe are not really dead or alive. They just interact, however they interact, based on the conditions that happen to come together. When the totality of conditional interactions are understood, the idea of self diminishes. When the idea of self is prevalent, the understanding of conditions diminishes. The Buddha speaks extensively about no-self (non-self) in the Suttas...all throughout. The way to find and best understand those passages is to read through the suttas, over and over. I don't believe understanding no-self can be achieved by asking for a reference, going to it and trying to understand it. That's not the way to understand Buddhism and I don't believe success in understanding Buddhism is possible with that methodology. Keep reading through and through the suttas and keep observing the way conditions are engaging all around and within you. That's the methodology I believe brings understanding. TG 46167 From: "frank" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 11:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta dhamma_service Hi Chris, I just wanted to address one point you mentioned: -----Original Message----- It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. -------------------------------- I would characterize it more as the Buddha pointing out the futility and frustration from pursuing speculative views about the origin of the world, living beings, etc. "hush we never mention that" makes it sound like a catholic priest relocation program. If you view the teachings of Buddhism as extinguishing a self that did not exist in the first place, it's also just a view. A view, even if correct, is ultimately useless if it doesn't lead to [im]personal insight and realization. The real secret is figuring out, every moment, if we're as happy as we can possibly be. If not, why. If yes, then are we certain that the happiness is stable and not dependent on conditions? There are very consistent patterns and conditions that accompany happiness/peace or the lack of it, and when we practice the Buddha's teaching in earnest and view every moment with insight, the connection between dukkha, anatta and happiness start to become more clear. Pursuing existential questions on the other hand would only lead to weariness, bitterness, frustration, the opposite direction of happiness. -fk 46168 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Sarah: ":-)) Oh Larry, there must be one point at least in one of their agreements or disagreements that you agree with or agree to disagree with or agree to disagree about agreeing with...:/ Anyway, I agree with the value of discussing them further and am also reading with interest....Please clarify and discuss on too." Hi Sarah, We could start with the first three on the 'agreement' side: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a shimmery whiteness. 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? I basically agree with the rest of the agreements: 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) DISAGREED POINTS: 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply walking. 2.`Practice´ consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that´s a sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) L: I think K. Sujin's position is that 'practice' (aka development) is the arising of virtuous consciousness and insight. There is no one who practices (or listens). 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. L: This relates to the _near_ paradox of impermanence, continuity, and emptiness, with an emphasis on continuity. 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. L: The Satipatthana Sutta says "this is the only way" and includes the Noble Eightfold Path as an object of insight in various ways. Larry 46169 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:46am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Ken, I liked your bum in a shack post (just browsing here and there on what's been a happening). There's something in this post I wish to comment on. > -------------------- > > Me too, but the practice starts and ends with knowledge of > conditionality - Abhidhamma. Conditionality is everywhere and in all > things. Even our desires and aspirations are conditioned - there is > no controlling self. Whenever we see that - regardless of the > conventional situation - we are living the holy life. > ==== I have always considered something that describes everything to be describing nothing at all. (As a silly illustration, if I were to say that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and non-beings). It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that talking about conditions can make any sense. Having made the distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of conditionality, rather than its negation. Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? Kind Regards Herman 46170 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:29am Subject: First "I"-dentification, then Enmity follows like a shadow that never leaves ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Silly Confrontational Opposition: "I"-Dentification leading to aversion: "'I Am'... Green, while 'You Are'... Blue"; "Therefore 'I Am' Against 'You'..."; "Therefore Are You Against Me..."; "Therefore I Fear You !!!"; "Therefore I Hate You !!!" Non-"I"-Dentification leading to harmony: "This is Green, while that is Blue ..." "So is it! So be it! Let it be! Let it go!..." "Polarity is Pain and Diversity is Noise..." "Unity is Peace and Harmony is Bliss..." "As we both & all can, so let us Meditate!" Please repeat the argument exchanging the Green/Blue pair with these common pairs: Black/White, Rich/Poor, Educated/Uneducated, High/Low, Man/Woman, Young/Old, Big/Small, Intelligent/Stupid, Beautiful/Ugly, Strong/Weak, Eastern/Western, North/Southern, RaceX/RaceY, ReligionX/ReligionY, CultureX/CultureY, etc... SkinX/SkinY NationalityX/NationalityY, etc... PoliticalX/PoliticalY, ColorX/ColorY, etc... FamilyX/FamilyY, GroupX/GroupY etc....! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 46171 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta egberdina Hi Christine, I was very heartened by your post, even if it was for the most selfish of reasons. More below. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Phil, and all, > > My apologies for the delay in replying to your posts of the 18 > May ... I've added the links to refresh your memory :-) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45661 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45662 > > I really enjoy your posts and reflect a lot on some of your remarks > and suggestions. > Getting pen to paper, or rather fingers to keyboard, seems to be > part and parcel of the problem over the last months ... no sticking > power ... It is what it is, I suppose ... can't whip up enthusiasm, > or energy, or whatever it is that is missing currently. How > different to a year ago, when I could have been in danger of writing > too much, and when some friends thought my interest in Buddhism was > a little too intense and, maybe, unhealthy.... > > I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... > but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This > is probably where the questioning about something standing behind > the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just > what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and > Ultimate Reality - comes from ... > > It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that > basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having > really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the > how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the > first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to > questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never > mention that ...' variety .. > > Still hanging in there, but barely, > metta, > Chris ==== The selfish reason being that there is another questioner out there, I am not alone :-) You're going to get bombarded with great advice from all your friends with regards to your hanging in there, and I am not going to be an exception ! I have not been able to come up with any answers to my own questions, but I have found recipes in the canon that make this futile existence bearable. I read the Sutta Nipata IV.5 Paramatthaka Sutta as saying that there is no need to analyse samsara, that there is no benefit in seeking a support in knowledge. (which is quite at odds with the program of scholastic Buddhism) . The social worker who remains viewless, with what can they be identified in the world? :-) How does one remain viewless? Only at the foot of a tree, with that tree being nothing more than a metaphor for a setting where freedom from thinking reigns supreme !! Kind Regards Herman 46172 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo philofillet Hi Tep > It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" like those > non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I > hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. Sorry to analyze such a friendly greeting, but... ...I would point out that peace of mind is something that we can find at anytime, in any situation, if there is awareness of the reality that is arising at the time. (Big if!) I have learned that there is calm with every kusala citta, though I couldn't tell you right now what paramattha dhamma that "calm" is. So when there is kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a dependency for peace and quiet...(not that that is the case for you.) Again, sorry for being picky about a friendly greeting! Metta, Phil 46173 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet Hi Chris > It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that > basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having > really existed) self. Ph: Not only Abhidhamma, of course. So many suttas point at that too. It seems that a common progression is revulsion > dispassion > abandonment. Yeah, I think nibaana means "extinguishment" doesn't it? That's why I wonder about nibaana being described as blissful. And it's why I can't get motivated by the notion of nibaana. Between you and me and anyone else reading, I like the idea of being reborn again and again but with a gradually purified citta stream that leads to nicer and nicer lifetimes. But of course it doesn't work that way. One day I saw a graffiti that said "Check your motivations" and it amde me think of Dhamma and I had to be honest with myself and say that I am not motivated towards nibaana. I want a sweeter samsara. Which is not wise. > This doesn't explain anything to me about the > how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the > first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to > questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never > mention that ...' variety .. Ph: Well, we know that the Buddha refused to answer this question. He said that the important thing is to get that poisoned arrow out first. Are you like the man in that sutta asking about the origin of the wood that made the arrow and so on. Fair enough if you are but I would say the "hush" comes from the Buddha, not from Kh Sujin or this group or so on... > Still hanging in there, but barely, Keep on hanging' in there Chris. :) Metta, Phil 46174 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:12am Subject: Vissuddhimagga Evan_Stamato... I can't believe it!!! Based on discussions on this forum, I decided to order my copy of the Vissuddhimagga. I have since received it and have started reading it. I ordered it from amazon.com as their prices are usually the best. Only today I found out that there is a free copy available on the net!!! Well, for those wanting to read this book just go to: http://www.budaedu.org/en/book/II-02main.php3 for your free copy. Metta, Evan 46175 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 206 - Zeal/chanda (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda is a necessary factor for all kinds of kusala, for dåna, for síla and for bhåvanå. When we, for example, visit a sick person, when we want to console someone who is in trouble or when we try to save an insect from drowning, there has to be kusala chanda which assists the kusala citta. If there were no wholesome zeal, “wish to act”, we could not perform such acts of mettå (loving kindness) and karuùå (compassion). Chanda is also a necessary factor for the development of calm. The Atthasåliní ( I, Part V, Chapter 13, 194) states in the section on the development of the meditation subjects which are the “divine abidings” (brahma vihåras) of mettå, karuùå, muditå (sympathetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity) : * "…the wish-to-do (chanda) is the beginning; the discarding of the hindrances is the middle; absorption is the end…" * In order to develop a meditation subject the wish-to-do is necessary. Without this wholesome desire one could not develop it. When calm has been developed more the hindrances can be temporarily eliminated and jhåna can be attained. Also at the moment of jhånacitta there is chanda. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46176 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:54am Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Don't feel sorry about nit-picking a friendly greeting, or even to criticize my meditation practice! I can clearly see your good intention, and that's all that matters. You said it well, but .. : Phil : ... when there is kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a dependency for peace and quiet.. Tep: It is true that calm may arise because of other conditions (paccaya) besides seclusion like reflecting on giving (dana) and virtues(sila). But to say that meditation is a two-sided sword for a naive beginner is like saying that eating good foods can cause obesity in ignorant and lazy people. Karuna, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > > It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" > like those > > non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I > > hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. > > > Sorry to analyze such a friendly greeting, but... > > ...I would point out that peace of mind is something that we can > find at anytime, in any situation, if there is awareness of the > reality that is arising at the time. (Big if!) I have learned that > there is calm with every kusala citta, though I couldn't tell you > right now what paramattha dhamma that "calm" is. So when there is > kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. > > We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that > we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy > world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than > helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a > dependency for peace and quiet...(not that that is the case for you.) > > Again, sorry for being picky about a friendly greeting! > > Metta, > > Phil 46177 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? ======================== I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46178 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Phil) - In a message dated 5/29/05 1:55:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This is probably where the questioning about something standing behind the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and Ultimate Reality - comes from ... It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I've gone through such "searching", Chris, and what I think what one has to ask oneself is "What sort of 'how and why' answer would satisfy me?". I concluded that *no* answer, so long as it is just a story - just a bunch of words and pictures - would satisfy me. I, personally, have no doubt that there is a true reality, that it is "right here", that while it may be multi-faceted, it is also unitary, that it is available for a complete, direct knowing - so direct that even "face-to-face" is too indirect to properly describe it, and that such knowing will not disappoint but will be the greatest delight and a perfect freeing. I also believe that the Buddha discovered and graciously presented "the" complete means to attain enlightenment and freedom but that important features of that practice are to be found in bits and pieces throughout all the religions of humankind. --------------------------------------------- Still hanging in there, but barely, --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that trusting that there is a truth - there is a reality, and trusting in that to-be-discovered truth is what can get us through, because the more one practices in a serious way without second guessing, anticipating results, or succumbing to impatience, the more results come and the more one's confidence and trust grow. -------------------------------------------- metta, Chris ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Now you already admit that 'Yes, we learn through trial and error. >That is a fact of life.' So why to bother practising? > > Yes, the conventional notion of 'practice' is of something that necessarily involves error. However, I think that in the teachings it means the actual development of insight (and in this respect it is similar to effort, determination and the like). This brings me back to the question of formal sitting meditation. I would still like to know exactly what this means, in terms of samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana, and why you see it as being more important than other forms of samatha and vipassana bhavana. Jon 46180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Okay, I can see a new angle in your comment about the sutta, >especially MN 10 and DN 22, with emphasis on bodily postures rather >than on walking specifically. But that is because the "walking >meditation" involves only two bodily postures: walking and standing (at >the end of the walking path). It does not mean that walking meditation >(meditation while walking and standing) is wrong. The sitting and lying >down postures should be a part of the everyday meditation when you >are not meditating while walking (and standing). > Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily posture (i.e., satipatthana no matter whether walking, standing, sitting or lying). Talking of the big picture, the 4 bodily postures are only a part of kayanupassana, and kayanupassana is in turn only 1 of the 4 foundations of mindfulness that *together* constitute the 'one way' spoken of at the beginning of the sutta. All 4 aspects need to be developed in order to attain the goal. Do you see any particular one as being more important than the other three? >If you have read my other posts so far, you may have seen that there >are both samatha&vipassana or sati&sampajanna in "walking >meditation" the same as one can see in the Satipatthana Sutta. > Yes, I have of course read your other posts ;-)). I particularly appreciated the point made recently (I think it was in one of your posts, but have no way of checking now) that in the Satipatthana Sutta, 'mindfulness' includes concentration, since the 2 path factors of samma-sati and samma-samadhi together make up the concentration factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments on this difference? >Thank you for the continuing attention, > You too, Tep. Jon 46181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Jon, so what is or what does that mean when you quote 'he >applies his will;'? > >What is or what does that mean 'he scrutinises;? > >What is or what does that mean 'he strives;'? > >I would be very much grateful if you could answer straight. > > You may have seen the recent Visuddhimagga passage posted by Larry, describing the mental factors of lobha ('greed'), <>, and moha ('delusion'), <>. That is to say, when the mental factor of lobha/moha is present, the person is said to be greedy/deluded. In the same manner, when we read passages like: 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives', what is being referred to is the underlying mental atate. The (kusala) mental factor of energy (viriya) is present, so the person is said to strive. As I understand it, the Buddha did not use striving to mean the akusala moments that precede kusala, but only to refer to the striving that accompanies kusala (in this regard, 'striving' is similar to 'practice'). So I would say that 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives' refers to different stages or forms of kusala connected with the development of insight. Jon 46182 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, no particular action is needed for the arising of insight. > I'm not sure why you are telling me this except that maybe you think >I believe a particular action is necessary. No, Jon, if I believed >that then I would believe in rituals, which I don't. However, I do >believe that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of >insight. Actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa: >sitting, walking (slowly and mindfully, not to travel anywhere), >standing, and lying. These are all bodily actions which can be >conducive to the arising of insight because they are conducive to >increased concentration. > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? Or is the difference one of degree only? 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to awareness of nama and rupa than others. >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? Jon 46183 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >DN 22 always includes internally, externally, internally-externally. >And it always includes seeing the cause(and the event), seeing the >cessation(and the event), seeing cause&cessation(and the event). > >These are actually momentary-sacca or momentary-realization. > Agreed. >When rupa-nama arise and pass away, impermanance is seen and >realization of suffering (naama-ruupa) is seen, the cause is also >seen, the cessation is also seen and this vihati or such abiding is >just right on the right path and this is developing of the path >momentarily. > Agreed >This is loki magga and loki sacca when naama and ruupa are seen >during any stage of the day(this also include night). > Agreed >There are experts but as they are frail I do not want to bother them >much as they are approaching to their 9th decade or 10th decade. > >When 'simple instructions' are heard people with intelligent pack of >abhidhamma knowledge would deny those 'instructions'. > I think you have in mind here the passage 'Meditate, Ananada/Cunda, meditate'. Could you tell us something about the Pali term here that is translated as 'meditate', and what it means? Thanks. Jon 46184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: You jumped too fast to the conclusion, Jon. The word "real action" >means the same as "resolutely striving". > >What is striving? > >Sarah gave a good definition for striving in # 42699: > >S: "So'striving' is the right effort in the development of vipassana >bhavana as you said, which develops with clear comprehension >(sampajaana or panna) and mindfulness (sati) until they become balas >(powers) along with saddha (confidence) and concentration (smadhi). >As you said this is` "without a 'self' directing the effort, or lobha that >yearns for results".' > >But what is the right effort (four right exertions)? > >Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four >frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its >requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these >qualities is its development." -- [MN 44 ] > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of insight development. Is this how you see it? To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. Jon 46185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 5/29/05 9:32:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, no particular action is needed for the arising of insight. > I'm not sure why you are telling me this except that maybe you think >I believe a particular action is necessary. No, Jon, if I believed >that then I would believe in rituals, which I don't. However, I do >believe that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of >insight. Actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa: >sitting, walking (slowly and mindfully, not to travel anywhere), >standing, and lying. These are all bodily actions which can be >conducive to the arising of insight because they are conducive to >increased concentration. > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? Or is the difference one of degree only? 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention? ------------------------------------------------ I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to awareness of nama and rupa than others. ---------------------------------------- Howard: How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought? --------------------------------------- >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? Jon ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46186 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - This is one of the rare moments I have waited for -- when we can reach an agreement and the case is closed! > Jon: > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right > effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of insight development. Is this how you see it? > > Jon: To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. > T: Yes, of course, that's how I see it too. Right effort accompanies right mindfulness when right view is being developed; similarly, right effort and right mindfulness induce right thought, right action, and right livlihood. Importantly, right concentration (defined in MN 10 and DN 22 as the 1st through 4th jhana) is supported by the other 7 Path factors. When all the 8 Path factors arise together, both samatha & vipassana are yoked together. Yours truly, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Tep: You jumped too fast to the conclusion, Jon. The word "real action" > >means the same as "resolutely striving". > > > >What is striving? > > > >Sarah gave a good definition for striving in # 42699: > > > >S: "So'striving' is the right effort in the development of vipassana > >bhavana as you said, which develops with clear comprehension > >(sampajaana or panna) and mindfulness (sati) until they become balas > >(powers) along with saddha (confidence) and concentration (smadhi). > >As you said this is` "without a 'self' directing the effort, or lobha that > >yearns for results".' > > > >But what is the right effort (four right exertions)? > > > >Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four > >frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its > >requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these > >qualities is its development." -- [MN 44 ] > > > > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right > effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of > insight development. Is this how you see it? > > To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the > (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. > > Jon 46187 From: "Joop" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 8:18am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Well, it looks like I am going to cause more upset feelings if I don't > discuss the issues you raised on-list rather than if I do. So here goes: > > Howard: With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? > > James: 1. The Buddha didn't teach that metaphor 2. It is only a > metaphor and lacks detailed analysis on which to base conclusions. > Howard, I have posted many times about that metaphor and how it really > isn't a teaching about anatta because it is far too simplistic. It > was spoken by an arahant nun as a retort to Mara. Like most retorts, > it contains a kernel of truth but it was mostly spoken to confound, > confuse, and chase Mara away- should that be taken as a dhamma > teaching? (Many people grab onto that metaphor because it is easy to > comprehend; however, true anatta isn't easy to comprehend.) Hi James, and all Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something too. The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't play a role in my thinking) uses, is: - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five heaps. - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too This is an incorrect and false logic. Why? Becauase the first statement had not to be understood as a general, abstract, scientific- psychological statement. It had to be understood as a soteriological statement: If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the illusion of your "self". I'm sure that there are no quotes from the Sutta's like "the Others don't exist" (in a paramatthic way), such as there are quotes "I don't exist". Of course such a quote about the "Others" cannot be found, Buddhism isn't amoral: How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Metta Joop 46188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 8:33am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Our conversation on satipatthana, and the ways it may be developed, continues in this post. >Tep: The sitting and lying down postures should be a part of the >everyday meditation when you are not meditating >while walking (and standing). > Jon: Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily posture ... Tep: But don't forget that the sutta also specifically states that the breathing meditation should be carried out while the bhikkhu is sitting with legs crossed and straight back. Jon: Talking of the big picture, the 4 bodily postures are only a part of kayanupassana, and kayanupassana is in turn only 1 of the 4 foundations of mindfulness that *together* constitute the 'one way' spoken of at the beginning of the sutta. All 4 aspects need to be developed in order to attain the goal. Do you see any particular one as being more important than the other three? Tep: I can see the particular persistence in your argument that the 4 postures must be taken as equally important within the broader picture of the 4 foundations of mindfulness. But this viewpoint can be compared to the disadvantage of being so biased toward seeing the forest that one may fail to see the trees (each species of trees do not look the same). Jon: It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments on this difference? Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to develop such conditions are another. But regardless of the means, the end result -- sati (mindfulness) -- is the same for all tools except for the strength of sati itself. For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, concentration, and insights. The 4 tetrads are built upon the four foundations of mindfulness. This Anapanasati tool not only supports conditions for sati and sampajanna, it also supports concentration and insight knowledge development -- i.e. yoking samatha and vipassana together. On the other hand, the Iriyapatha tool of the kayanupassana- satipatthana in DN 22 does not result in the strength of sati and samadhi of the level given by the Anapanasati. Yet the sati and sampajanna induced by walking meditation is the same kind as that sati-sampajanna which is conditioned by the Anapanasati -- say, cats are the same kind of animal as tigers, but tigers are much stronger. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (snipped) > > It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is > mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of > the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a > kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are > different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments > on this difference? > 46189 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:53am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Joop - J: Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too. -- This is an incorrect and false logic.If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the illusion of your "self". -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", and "sentient beings" too. So far you only asked questions or expressed disbelief of other viewpoints. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: (snipped) > > Hi James, and all > > Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and > you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something > too. > > The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient > beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > 46190 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Thanks for getting back to me. It took you a long time- you must be very busy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. > > 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice > between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising > of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the > arising of insight? James: Yes, that's what I wrote. Did you not understand my statements? Or is the difference one of degree only? James: Not sure what you mean. What is the difference and what is the degree? (I don't do well answering leading questions) > > 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa > (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to > insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be > 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of > ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems > to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not > directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. James: Jon, this is the same thing you are saying all the time. I had to wait so long for this?? ;-)) > > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to > awareness of nama and rupa than others. James: This is because you have tunnel vision. The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" > >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea > >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question > >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > > > > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? James: I would give you a D+ (redundant and obstinate- but room for improvement ;-)) > > Jon Metta, James 46191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:16pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > > Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and > you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something > too. > > The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient > beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. > - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > > This is an incorrect and false logic. James: Yes, this is an incorrect and false logic- but this is because it doesn't match the issues we have discussed. Your summaries are reflexive and don't match the original issues, therefore I can't respond. Please summarize in a different manner so that I may more clearly understand your points. Why? Becauase the first > statement had not to be understood as a general, abstract, scientific- > psychological statement. It had to be understood as a soteriological > statement: If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the > illusion of your "self". > > I'm sure that there are no quotes from the Sutta's like "the Others > don't exist" (in a paramatthic way), such as there are quotes "I > don't exist". > > Of course such a quote about the "Others" cannot be found, Buddhism > isn't amoral: How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another > sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? > > Metta > > Joop Metta, James 46192 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:33pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > ======================== > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) ==== Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll understand it :-) Thanks and Regards Herman 46193 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] philofillet Hi Joop, and all > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. > - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > > This is an incorrect and false logic. Ph: Well, it is also Dhamma 101 and must be appreciated if one is going to get anywhere towards developing understanding. It is also a good example of the kind of thing the Buddha predicted people would resist - one of the truths that go against the way of the world, and made the Buddha think about skipping his heroic mission. See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right." This is the mainstream view - basic Dhamma, taught in the nikayas as well as Abhidhamma. If we read a sutta like SN 18:1 (the Buddha leads Rahula through a reflection on the man, many ways concepts can be broken down into realities) and reflect on it, I don't know how on earth we can come away from that experience still insisting that people are realities. You have said in the past that you think Dhamma should be modernized or something like that to reflect the changing world. (Sorry for the paraphrase - I hope I haven't misinterpreted you.) New religions are started all the time. I would say that most forms of Japanese Buddhism are hardly recongizable as true Dhamma. But be aware that you will be leaving the Buddha's teaching behind if you reject such basic truths as the truth that people are concepts/conventions. As for others being only the khandas, well of course. Khandas are external as well as internal, as defined in the Smayuta Nikaya 22:48. Do you think the Buddha taught that the truth only applies to his followers? That would be pretty half-assed for a man of such incomparable wisdom. Maybe I misunderstand your point here... As for metta, of course there can be metta for concepts. And understanding the underlying realities needn't damage our capacity for loving-kindness and compassion for people. If anything, it leaves more room for it, more capacity, because if we have right understanding of realities there is less clinging to stories about people, fewer obstructions and conditions for partiality, and purer, more unconditional loving kindness and compassion. Metta, Phil 46194 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon and James (interested members are welcome) - There have been several satipatthana discussions at the DSG message board that center around a number of recurring issues , for example : the objects of satipatthana in general (Nina's notes) versus the objects of satipatthana in DN 22; relative effectiveness of the various objects of satipatthana in DN 22; "activities", tools (my own word) or "directed practices" (Jon's word) or "methods" in DN 22 for training sati-sampajanna. Other related issues are: What is actually satipatthana? (Nina's definition is the DSG standard. But is it exactly the same as the Buddha's definition?) How does satipatthana arise ? How is the mindfulness from "directed activities" different from "mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions" (Jon's ) ? Well, for this post I like to focus only on the following Q&A. > Jon: > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive > to awareness of nama and rupa than others. James: This is because you have tunnel vision. The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. Tep: James has made a valid point here for the kayanupassana "activities" using breaths, bodily postures, the 32 body parts, the four basic elements in the body, etc.. In addition to helping develop sati-sampajanna, these kayanupassana activities also help the yogi to condition mindfulness on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. We should notice that there are no special "activities" for the contemplation of feeling (vedananupassana), or the contemplation of nama like citta , sanna, samyojana, etc. Do you know why? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for getting back to me. It took you a long time- you must be > very busy. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. > > > > 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice > > between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? > (snipped) > > James: > > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to > > awareness of nama and rupa than others. > 46195 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Herman, Welcome back. ----------------------------- KH: > > Conditionality is everywhere and in all > things. ........ H: > I have always considered something that describes everything to be describing nothing at all. ----------------------------- Self-referencing statements are the bane of all thinkers: they almost sent Bertrand Russell insane. ------------------------------------------------ H: > (As a silly illustration, if I were to say that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and non-beings). ------------------------------------------------ Yes, and if we do see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things,' what does that leave for us seers? Who gets the kudos for that kind of seeing? The answer is obvious - conditioned dhammas get the kudos - but where is the fun in that? :-) ------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that talking about conditions can make any sense. ------------------------------- I suppose that must be true, but I can't quite grasp it. The first noble truth is 'dukkha' (in other words, "conditioned existence") and the third noble truth is 'nibbana' - the end of dukkha. If there were no 'end of dukkha,' would there be any point in discussing dukkha? I don't know. But there is an end to it, and so there is a point in discussing it. ----------------------------------------------------- H: > Having made the distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of conditionality, rather than its negation. ------------------------------- The end of conditionality is reached by means of awareness. Firstly, it is by awareness of conditionality, and secondly, it is by awareness of nibbana. ------------------------------------------- H: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? -------------------------------------------- Yes, to quote the Visuddhimagga; "Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it." Therefore, wherever there is an entity apart from the presently arisen conditioned dhammas, there is no nibbana (no enlightenment). Ken H 46196 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/29/05 6:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > ======================== > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) ==== Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll understand it :-) Thanks and Regards Herman =============================== Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), all available on ATI. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46197 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:15pm Subject: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Azita and all I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual understanding first? You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's obviously something that keeps coming up for me. I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... Metta, Phil 46198 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:08pm Subject: The 7 Arahat Qualities ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Qualities of an Arahat: 1: The impermanence of all constructions is perfectly seen & comprehended.. 2: The torture & addiction of all sense-desire is perfectly perceived & known.. 3: His mind is only inclined towards solitude, seclusion and detached ease.. 4: The Four Foundations of Awareness are continually & perfectly established.. 5: The Five Mental Abilities & Powers are perfectly developed & consummated.. 6: The Seven Links to Awakening are perfectly refined and fully completed.. 7: The Noble Eightfold Way is perfectly realized, accomplished & concluded.. By these 7 criteria, he clearly & invariably recognizes that for him have the mental fermentations associated with Sense-Desire, with Becoming, and with Ignorance been completely & irreversibly eliminated! Cut of at the root and like a palm tree stump never to grow again... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46199 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 10:03pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda accompanies all types of sobhana cittas. Chanda accompanies the rúpåvacara cittas and the arúpåvacara cittas. The chanda which accompanies these types of cittas is not kåmåvacara (of the sense-sphere), but rúpåvacara or arúpåvacara. Chanda is different as it accompanies different types of citta of different planes of consciousness. Chanda which accompanies jhånacitta “searches for” the meditation subject which the jhånacitta experiences with absorption. The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which “searches for” nibbåna. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from longing for nibbåna. It assists the lokuttara citta to carry out its function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda directly experience nibbåna1. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46200 From: "Joop" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:47am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jwromeijn Hallo Tep, James, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Joop, and all > > Ph: Well, it is also Dhamma 101 and must be appreciated if one is > going to get anywhere towards developing understanding. It is also a > good example of the kind of thing the Buddha predicted people would > resist - one of the truths that go against the way of the world, and > made the Buddha think about skipping his heroic mission. > > See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya > anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the > person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the > person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate > upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own > right." ... Tep My questions were 'retoric', but if you want I answer them myself: -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as suffering beings. Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", and "sentient beings" too. Joop: difficult to define something of which I know it doesn't exiast and some people have the illusion it exists. But a informal try: self is (the illusion that) we have a permanent core, even of a immortal kind (a soul) Sentient beings: two kinds: human beings and animals; and maybe inhabitants of other realms (I'm agnostic on that) James: a pity I have not understood you so that I'm on the wrong thread but misunderstandings can happen. Phil I don't know what '101' is, I think some university course in some countries, not in mine (the Netherlands, Western Europe). Your paraphrase of my ideas about new forms of combining the buddhadhamma with the 21 century is rather exact, and I think you are correct that "most forms of Japanese Buddhism are hardly recongizable as true Dhamma"; an exception is the 'critical buddhism', I think (cf. the book "Pruning the Bodhi Tree") But after these nice words I had to say it's a pity you don't see the central place the term 'soteriological' had in my message. The exemples you use in your message (I do have BB's translation and did read your quotes) I accept when I apply them to myself, because I know the Buddha said this to liberate me. But they are not meant as a kind of objective scientific psychology. When somebody says to me he has a self (or more modern: a identity), I will say to him that that is an illusion (I mean, I will do that to adults, not to my grandson who got 8 years today). But it is something else to treat other people (and animals) as only five heaps, my ethic is I had to treat them as sufferings beings. That's why I was active in trying to develop 'engaged buddhism' in my country the last months. Metta Joop 46201 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Howard; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 6:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Hi Howard (and Ken), > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofman@b... writes: > > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > > ======================== > > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) > > ==== > Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta > quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll > understand it :-) > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Herman > =============================== > Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent > origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. > But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct > knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas > from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), > all available on ATI. > > With metta, > Howard ==== Thanks for the above, Howard. The suttas you mention certainly bear out what you said. But I am a little confused. The Udana 1:1-3 portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to dependent origination later. Either way, I'm not hung up about it. Thanks and kind regards Herman 46202 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Ken, Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense, and you put it in ways I haven't previously considered. So consider it further I shall. I have to be a bit careful too, at the end of the week I'll be away from the Internet for nearly two weeks. I'd prefer not to leave any discussions in mid-air for that length of time. Good to be discussing with you again Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Welcome back. > > ----------------------------- > KH: > > Conditionality is everywhere and in all > > things. > ........ > > H: > I have always considered something that describes everything to > be describing nothing at all. > ----------------------------- > > Self-referencing statements are the bane of all thinkers: they > almost sent Bertrand Russell insane. > > ------------------------------------------------ > H: > (As a silly illustration, if I were to say > that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because > there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and > non-beings). > ------------------------------------------------ > > Yes, and if we do see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things,' > what does that leave for us seers? Who gets the kudos for that kind > of seeing? The answer is obvious - conditioned dhammas get the > kudos - but where is the fun in that? :-) > > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > H: > It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that > talking about conditions can make any sense. > ------------------------------- > > I suppose that must be true, but I can't quite grasp it. The first > noble truth is 'dukkha' (in other words, "conditioned existence") > and the third noble truth is 'nibbana' - the end of dukkha. If > there were no 'end of dukkha,' would there be any point in > discussing dukkha? I don't know. But there is an end to it, and so > there is a point in discussing it. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: > Having made the > distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems > that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of > conditionality, rather than its negation. > ------------------------------- > > The end of conditionality is reached by means of awareness. Firstly, > it is by awareness of conditionality, and secondly, it is by > awareness of nibbana. > > ------------------------------------------- > H: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality > where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > -------------------------------------------- > > Yes, to quote the Visuddhimagga; "Nibbana is, but not the man that > enters it." > > Therefore, wherever there is an entity apart from the presently > arisen conditioned dhammas, there is no nibbana (no enlightenment). > > Ken H 46203 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Azita) - In a message dated 5/30/05 12:16:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Azita and all I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual understanding first? You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's obviously something that keeps coming up for me. I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... Metta, Phil ========================== The more I contemplate your question, the more I conclude that Khun Sujin's reply is the only non-deluding one possible. To really know motion, one, of course, has to have had the experience of it in order to know "where to look" or "what to look for", but a conceptual description with any degree of detail will only serve to substitute ideas for experience. Think for a minute about the multi-layered, intricate mosaic of concepts involved in a definition along the lines of, say, "Motion is the change of position of a physical object." Still to be explicated then are "physical object", which, BTW, is, itself, a vastly complex concept involving a multitude of other concepts and strongly defiled by reification, i.e. filled with notion of self, and "change," an abstraction which suggests something that persists at the core but not at the periphery, another hardened, substantialist idea, and "position", an abstraction which may well never be actually experienced. On the other hand, phenomenalistic motion - the experience itself - is given directly to us, can be known directly by us, and when we experience it, nothing useful is further required besides clear, sharp attention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46204 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/30/05 6:35:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Thanks for the above, Howard. The suttas you mention certainly bear out what you said. But I am a little confused. The Udana 1:1-3 portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to dependent origination later. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think that may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the purpose of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. ----------------------------------------- Either way, I'm not hung up about it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46205 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 6:45am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Nina - I have seen Chanda in a few suttas. The followings are some suttas I can think of. Could you (or Nina) be kind enough to answer the questions below for me? Thank you very much. 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of these? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? 2. SN LI.20: Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta. "There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire (chanda) & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. ..." Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of the above? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? Question 5. Does this chanda search for Nibbana? 3. MN 111: Anupada Sutta "There is the case where Sariputta... enters & remains in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. intent), desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- he ferrets them out one by one. ..." Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of the above? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? Question 5. Does this chanda search for "the meditation subject" or Nibbana? If so, why did the Venerable Sariputta ferret it out? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] > > Chanda accompanies all types of sobhana cittas. > > Chanda accompanies the rúpåvacara cittas and the arúpåvacara cittas. The > chanda which accompanies these types of cittas is not kåmåvacara > (of the sense-sphere), but rúpåvacara or arúpåvacara. Chanda is > different as it accompanies different types of citta of different > planes of consciousness. Chanda which accompanies jhånacitta > "searches for" the meditation subject which the jhånacitta experiences > with absorption. > > The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which "searches > for" nibbåna. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from > longing for nibbåna. It assists the lokuttara citta to carry out its > function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda > directly experience nibbåna1. > ***** > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46206 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 9:49am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Phil: Ph: > > See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya > anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the > person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own > right." Tep: I also accept the mainstream viewpoint about "existence" of a person in the sense that it is derived from the five aggregates. Importantly, I also understand that such existence is impermanent and time varying - i.e. it is inconstant and changing since the time it came into existence until the time it finally disintegrates. Thus we should view the 5 individual khandhas as anatta - in the sense of the Anattalakkhana Sutta. Joop: (answering the two questions:) -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as suffering beings. Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Tep, James, Phil > > > My questions were 'retoric', but if you want I answer them myself: > -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in > fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that > -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient > being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is > not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as > suffering beings. > > Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", > and "sentient beings" too. 46207 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again, Andrew and all > > An afterthought. I know you know this already, but some people don't > understand that reducing ourselves and other people to nama and rupa > *does not* mean that there is a dehumanizing or coldness. The loving- > kindness and compassion that we feel are just as real (more real in my > opinion) as in the context of narratives. There are fewer obstacles to > a pure appreciation of other people, fewer obstacles to really and > deeply taking care of them, sometimes free from soial obligations, > sometimes in the context of social obligations. > > Metta, > Phil Phil, I would not think knowing Abhidhamma and realities in daily life would lessen compassion. I'm not that familiar with how 'knowing' ultimate realities in daily life changes daily life, but I know that good will and compassion are part of the Buddhist path and I don't think anyone would say it's not Jewish either. Thanks for your input. 46208 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew and Phil, > I do not know much about the Talmud, but as to what I heard, it is very good > sila. Very practical for daily life and composed with so much kindness and > compassion. > You do not have to follow all the rules, but you can take the essence out of > it. > You remember that my first question to you was about the Talmud? > There are stories of rabbis in Judaism which contain so much old, oriental > wisdom. Wise, practical lessons. Just delightful. We can appreciate them and > interprete them with the Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma and social life, this is not > a contradiction and we can come to understand this more deeply. > When we read in Buddhist texts about family tradition, they usually refer to > the tradition of generosity. > Nina. > op 27-05-2005 02:48 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in > > what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist > > principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which > > contradict basic Jewish beliefs? > > > > Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a > > good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. > > In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no > > Buddhists. Nina thanks for your advice. However I still envision myself as practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing the discipline of the Dharma back to life. It made me think if I read the Dharma more carefully and with my faculties at hand I might do better with it still. Still I am unsure about whether it is necessary to have firm belief in a single creator god, for personal reasons and carrying out the family tradition. Still reading the Talmud and getting the same morality lessons strengthened could help. Prayer, and buying into monotheistic concepts and thinking all good comes from such an omnipotent god, scare me a little bit, I would much rather work with the Dharma at this point. Lastly, I would like to point out that I distinctly remember a sutta in which the Buddha told Ananda that he, the Buddha, in a former life, had enjoyed human sensual pleasures for some time, up until his hair began showing grey, at which point he left home and lived a holy life to enjoy celestial sensual pleasures after death. He told his son to do the same, to carry out the tradition, and not to be the last man carrying it out. He then came back to what was the current time period then and told Ananda that now there is the Noble Eightfold Path, and eventually, there will be one man practising it, but so long as many practise it, it will not be. Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition is to be carried out. 46209 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics gazita2002 Hello Phil and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil (and Azita) - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 12:16:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > Hi Azita and all > > I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh > Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become > irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual > descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help > us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience > the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual > understanding first? > > You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't > find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the > response you got on this point. Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question and the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even more, but that's not my intention. For example, we often talk about visible object. When cakkuvinnana sees, it sees just visible object - well when I see, I see things and people bec. there is no awareness of v.o. - no sati and panna. It must be the same for motion. when I'm driving my car there is motion but its a big story about 'me driving my car'. Howeve, I feel confident that if Sati arises at that moment then motion will be truly known, its characteristic will be known. That's what I believe, anyway. Howard has said basically the same thing -see below- > I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise > is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us > by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper > understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this > talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... > > Metta, > Phil > > Howard: The more I contemplate your question, the more I conclude that Khun > Sujin's reply is the only non-deluding one possible. To really know motion, one, of > course, has to have had the experience of it in order to know "where to look" > or "what to look for", but a conceptual description with any degree of detail > will only serve to substitute ideas for experience. > Think for a minute about the multi-layered, intricate mosaic of concepts > involved in a definition along the lines of, say, "Motion is the change of > position of a physical object." Still to be explicated then are "physical > object", which, BTW, is, itself, a vastly complex concept involving a multitude of > other concepts and strongly defiled by reification, i.e. filled with notion of > self, and "change," an abstraction which suggests something that persists at > the core but not at the periphery, another hardened, substantialist idea, and > "position", an abstraction which may well never be actually experienced. On the > other hand, phenomenalistic motion - the experience itself - is given directly > to us, can be known directly by us, and when we experience it, nothing useful > is further required besides clear, sharp attention. > > With metta, > Howard > thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my explanations :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 46210 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 5/30/05 8:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my explanations :-) ======================= Mmm, that's a deficit of mine! (Just ask James!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46211 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Hi Tep and Joop, > > Joop: (answering the two questions:) > -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in > fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that > -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient > being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is > not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as > suffering beings. > > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). > ====== What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). Kind Regards Herman 46212 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/30/05 10:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). Kind Regards Herman ========================= Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46213 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 8:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gazita2002@y... writes: > thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my > explanations :-) > ======================= > Mmm, that's a deficit of mine! (Just ask James!! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard I never said it is your deficit! ;-( I said it is your style. Metta, James 46214 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/30/05 11:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: never said it is your deficit! ;-( I said it is your style. ====================== Whatever! ;-)) With metta, my friend, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46215 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics lbidd2 Hi Phil, Azita, and Howard, Phil, I believe the message you are referring to is 45194. Regarding how we experience motion, the air element, I found two accounts: 1. CMI,p.238. The air element (vaayodhaatu) is the principle of motion and pressure. Its characteristic is distension (vitthambana), its function is to cause motion in the other material phenomena, and it is manifested as conveyance to other places. Its proximate cause is the other three great essentials. It is experienced as tangible pressure. 2. Various notes in Vism. This is typical: Vism.XI,n.37 ' "It blows": it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalapa)'. also, Vism.VIII,n.55 ...The ordinary term "motion" (gatisama~n~naa) refers to successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) according to conditions. Larry: I take this to mean we experience the air element ("motion") through the body door as pressure, such as the wind pressure of breathing, or the distension (swelling) of the lungs. The conventional sense of motion in the sense of one thing moving from one place to another would be classified as a concept. I think there can be a direct perception (insight) that motion in the conventional sense is empty of self-nature (sabhava). In other words, it isn't actually an object of consciousness. We can see directly that we can't see motion in the conventional sense, that it is an illusion. We might liken this to seeing how a magic trick works. Next time you see a mirage you might play with that a little. From there you could look at a tree. Can you see a tree? Can you see that you can't see a tree? Then look in a mirror. Schazam! Larry 46216 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 10:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very > perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains > the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is > never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows > clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying > the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as > meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ========================= > Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a > way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of > rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? > ==== I'm not trying to be smart here, but it just isn't part of the definition of rainbow that it is a tangible object. With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in beings. Even thoughts and consciousness are social products, such experiences are negations of not being. IMHO :) Kind Regards Herman 46217 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 208 - Zeal/chanda (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] How do we know when chanda is kusala and when it is akusala? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attachment than kusalachanda. We are attached to a concept of sati and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different from the moment sati arises. There are many moments of forgetfulness but sometimes there may be a moment of mindfulness of only one object at a time appearing through one of the six doors. When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda which performs its function. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46218 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Good Questions – let’s see how I go: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I have seen Chanda in a few suttas. The followings are some suttas I > can think of. > > Could you (or Nina) be kind enough to answer the questions below for > me? Thank you very much. > > 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk > generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) > > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > these? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? .... 1.kama-vacara at moments of satipatthana when the 4 right efforts are being developed and lokuttara at moments when all Noble Eightfold Path factors arise and the 4 right efforts are ‘fulfilled’. 2.references to the 4 right efforts are always (as I understand) in the context of satipatthana and supramundane consciousness. Checking the context in DN22 to confirm, I see it comes under the 4NT. 3. no lobha with kusala (or sobhana to be precise) cittas. ‘Generates desire’ or ‘rouses his will’ (Walshe tansl) can easily be misunderstood. 4. :-) remember, all dhammas are anatta. Chanda is anatta, vayamo is anatta. Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that understanding as you and Jon agreed, I believe. We can say a monk generates chanda, but this has to be understood as being conventional language as Howard has pointed out. ***** > 2. SN LI.20: Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta. "There is the case where a > monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration > founded on desire (chanda) & the fabrications of exertion, > thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor > overly > active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' <...> > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > the > above? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? > Question 5. Does this chanda search for Nibbana? ..... 1. Checking the context, this is a reference to the 4 iddhi-padas or bases of success: Again when fulfilled, they are lokuttara, but kama-vacara (mundane) as predominant factors: a) chanda, b) viriya, c) citta, d) vimamsa (investigation/panna) 2. context of Iddhipaadasa.myutta. Also, see Nyantiloka’s dict for ‘iddhi-paada’. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm 3. no –same answer. No lobha with sobhana cittas 4. never, same answer:-). 5. when it arises with lokuttara cittas and nibbana is the object, yes. With mundane cittas, it ‘searches for’ or ‘wishes to reach’ the characteristic of a nama or rupa appearing. No thought of nibbana. ***** > 3. MN 111: Anupada Sutta "There is the case where Sariputta... enters > & remains in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first > jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of > mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. > intent), > desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- > he > ferrets them out one by one. ..." > > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > the > above? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? > Question 5. Does this chanda search for "the meditation subject" or > Nibbana? If so, why did the Venerable Sariputta ferret it out? .... 1 rupa-vacara citta when the factors arise. When they are discerned or ‘ferreted out’, it is with kamavacara reviewing consciousness. 2.it says ‘in the first jhana’! As you’ve discussed with Htoo and Nina before, the object of the jhana citta is the nimitta. When the states are known it is with subsequent kamavacara cittas. “...those states were defined by him one by one as they occurred, known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’”(Nanamoli/Bodhi transl) 3.still no:-) 4.still no:-) 5. chanda here searches for the meditation subject (kammatthana). Subsequently, the states were known with kamavacara panna. The N/B transl uses ‘defined’.Chanda would then be arising with this panna, searching out the jhana factors just arisen. Remember, no ‘Ven Sariputta’ or ‘Howard’:-). ***** S: These are the kinds of qus that both Htoo and Nina love. Thanks for keeping me on my toes in the meantime. You’re most welcome to question/disagree with any of them or ask the others on return as well. Metta, Sarah ========= 46219 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Sarah (and all other interested members -- please join us) – ... S: Firstly, thanks for kindly encouraging others to join in any of our discussions. .... > > This is my reply to your message #46097. It seems to me that we are > now debating whether the detailed knowledge at the Paramattha- > dhamma level -- through Ajahn Sujin's lectures - is absolutely > necessary for a practical-minded Buddhist. ... S: Can I re-phrase this and suggest that what we are ‘politely discussing:-)’ now is whether the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas in order to realize the 4 Noble Truths. .... > Tep: Knowing the five external ayatanas down to the Paramattha- > dhamma details is not the idea in MN 137 and MN 148. The Buddha > never asked those kinds of questions you have asked. you the following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really > seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? 3. When you touch the > computer, what is experienced? ... ...> > > What is the use of asking those questions anyway? Can they lead me > to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana? I believe the two suttas, MN 137 and > MN 147, can. .... S: I asked them because of your suggestion in an earlier post that we really see and touch computers and so on. Indeed I believe that without directly understanding that what is seen is visible object, what is heard is just sound and so on, there is no way to ‘yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana’ because we will continue to be lost in the world of concepts and illusions. I still have DN22 open from my last post to you in which (still under the 4NT) it talks about how the craving comes to be abandoned: “Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there its cessation comes about. And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? “The eye.......the ear.... “Eye-consciousness....ear-consciousness.... “Sights, sounds..... “Eye-contact, ear-contact.....the perception of sights, sounds........volition in regard to sights, sounds........craving for sights, sounds.......thnking of sights, sounds........pondering on sights, sounds.................agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving comes to an end, there its cessation comes about. And that, monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering.” .... S: In other words, the khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas are what arise and fall and concerning which craving arises and which right understanding and the other path factors have to directly know. The Path is the direct knowing and penetration of sankhara dhammas so that the unconditioned dhamma will eventually be known. Computers and people are not sankhara dhammas. ..... > What the Buddha Taught in MN 137 > ============================== > > -- 'The six internal medium(ajjhattika ayatana) should be known'. They > are : The eye-medium(cakkhaayatana), the ear-medium, the nose- > medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium > (manayatana). No detailed information down to the Paramattha level > was ever mentioned by the Buddha. .... S: These are all paramattha dhammas and the same applies to the external ayatana next: .... > -- 'The six external sense-media (baahira ayatana) should be known'. > They are: The form-medium(ruupaayatana), the sound-medium, the > aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the > idea-medium(dhammaayatana). No details down to the Paramattha > level were ever mentioned in this sutta. ... S: Please see ‘Ayatanas’ in U.P. if you have time. These are all paramattha dhammas. Dhammaayatana refers to subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana. Manayatana refers to cittas. All the other dhammas mentioned in your quote are also paramattha dhammas or realities to be directly known and understood. You mention there are no details of ’89 cittas’, but as Howard and Azita have just suggested to Phil’s qu about ‘motion’. In the end, the answers are not ‘in the book’. You say we don’t need to know about 89 cittas or other abhidhamma detail to understand this sutta, but I think it helps a lot when we read ‘intellect-cosnciousness’ or ‘intellect-medium’ to have an idea that these terms in translation refer to other cittas not specified apart from Eye-consciousness and so on. Otherwise, again, we may read the sutta as suggesting there should be awareness of ideas or computers rather than of namas and rupas. .... <...> >You may wish to read the rest of > MN 137 yourself. I don't think you may find such excellent teaching > anywhere else! ... S: yes, it is excellent. Later it continues to refer to the ‘knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms....sounds.....etc. one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms (i.e visible objects) both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change.....etc’. It’s all about paramattha dhammas, as I read it, Tep! ***** > > What the Buddha Taught in MN 148 > ============================= <...> > I don't think those questions you have asked me following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? <...> > Just read the part on "eye & forms", for example, that deals with the > whole dependent arisings of all the dhammas emanating from the eye > and form all the way to vedana, and shows how the "bhikkhu" should > contemplate (or discern) to abandon passion-obsession and > resistance-obsession, and finally to uproot ignorance obsession. > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. > The meeting of the three is contact. .... S: while there’s the idea that we see a computer and hear people, I don’t believe we can truly appreciate even this first line which is about the understanding of conditioned (paramattha) dhammas. We think we see or that we see a person or computer, but at this moment there is just the seeing consciousness conditioned by visible object and eye-base which arises. It sees visible object or ‘form’ with the assistance of phassa and other cetasikas. Mere conditioned dhammas, impermanent, unsatisfactory and worthless. But it is on account of these dhammas that feelings, attachments, cravings, obsessions, wrong views, wrong actions and so on arise and so samsara keeps rolling until ignorance of dhammas is eradicated completely. ..... <...> > Again, my opinion is that we don't need to apply the Paramattha- > dhamma in order to understand and be able to follow the teaching of > this sutta. .... S: Nothing needs to be applied, but the dhammas arising and falling now can be directly known when they are experienced and when sati, panna, viriya, chanda and so on arise, conditioned by careful consideration and reflection of what we’ve read and heard. Thank you again for the excellent quotes and all your deep reflections, Tep. I’ll look forward to hearing your further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you also saw my reply to you on postures (iriyapatha). =========== 46220 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 1:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent > origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. > But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct > knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas > from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), > all available on ATI. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, Herman, Ken, all, Perhaps this may be it? "Whoever sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." [M.I.191] http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise1.htm This is unclear in Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation due to the compressing of verses 172-194 into 8 lines, no doubt to reduce the repetitions.(pp89-90) metta, Chris 46221 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:05am Subject: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi all, Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any feedback. Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? Kind Regards Herman 46222 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Herman, Chris & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: >Herman: The Udana 1:1-3 > portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to > dependent origination later. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think > that > may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the > purpose > of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. > ----------------------------------------- ... S: Yes, I think of it as like a reviewing on an incomparable scale. I assume you’re referring to the following Udana 1:3 (Masefield transl): “...And on that occasion, the Lord had been seated for seven days in a single cross-legged position experiencing the bliss of liberation. “The the Lord, with the passing of those seven days, having emerged from that concentration, throughout the last watch of the night unerringly paid attention to dependent co-arising in direct order and reverse order.....” S: In ‘The Path of Discrimination’ there is a whole section on the Buddha’s omniscient wisdom (Treatise on Knowledge, ch LXX11-Omniscient and Unobstructed Knowledge): ”It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge...” It goes on to enumerate how anything in the past, future, or presently-arisen is known. In other words, whatever he puts his mind to is known by this omniscience, including all knowledges attained and so on." ***** From the commentary to the Udana above: “So these three Udanas (I:1, 1:2, 1:3) were proclaimed by the Lord during the three watches making manifest the majesty, firstly, of his discerning of the (twelve-membered) mode of conditions, secondly, of his attaining the destruction of those conditions and, thirdly, of the ariyan path. On which night? “On the seventh night following his enlightenment. For, on the night of the full moon in (the month) of Visaakhaa, the Lord, having in the first watch, recollected his former dwelling, in the middle watch cleansed his heavenly eye, (and) in the last watch inclined his knowledge to dependent co-arising, (and) having (finally) comprehended the formations belonging to the triple world in diverse ways, reached perfect, self-enlightenment, thinking “Now dawn will come up”. And immediately following his reaching of omniscience, the dawn came up. “Spending thereafter seven days in that same cross-legged position at the root of the Bodhi Tree, he paid attention, on the seventh night, to dependent co-arising during the three watches in the manner stated, and then gave rise, respectively, to these Udanas.” ***** S: So, as suggested by Howard, it was a question of what ‘he paid attention’ to. Here are a couple of earlier quotes from the same commentary to 1:1 which I like and which may be relevant to the points Chris and others were discussing too: ..... “ ‘That being, this comes to be (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti)’: that condition, such as ignorance and so on, being, this fruition, such as the formations and so forth, comes to be; ‘through the arising of that, this arises (imass’ uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati)’ through the arising of that condition of ignorance and so on, this fruition, such as the formations and so forth, arises – this is the meaning. By way of the statement in the second and third suttas, viz “That not being, this comes not to be; through the cessation of that, this ceases”, (signifying) the absence of the formations and so on when there is an absence of ignorance and so forth......” ***** S: And the second one on the ‘fool’: “For dependent co-arising is the occurrence of the khandhas together with (such) fetters, which (fetters) are latent (within those khandhas) on account of their not having been completely rooted out. And similarly there is said: “That ignorance, hindered by which, monks, this body comes to pass for the fool, and that craving to which he is conjoined – that same ignorance is not abandoned for that fool, nor that craving completely destroyed. "What is the reason for this? That fool, monks, did not lead the Brahmacariya for the sake of the proper destruction of dukkha (belonging to the cycle). Therefore, that fool, following the breaking up of the body, is one going on to (another) body; he, being one going on to (another) body, is not completely freed from birth, old age and dying” (Sii24) and so on; whereas annihilation of the cycle will become made known to those in whom the fetters have been destroyed, since due to the absence of ignorance, there will be no (further) generation of the formations, due to the absence of craving, (no further generation of ) grasping, due to the absence of grasping, (no further generation of) becoming. “For this same reason, he said “Through the cessation, without remainder, via fading away, of these same six bases of contact, Phagguna, is there cessation of contact, through the cessation of contact, cessation of sensation”(Sii14) and so forth. For it is not (a question of) the non-occurrence of the six bases and so on onwards from attainment of the topmost path up until parinibbaana; rather ‘cessation’ is mentioned since it is a state in which (something) does not exist, the state in which the fetters have been destroyed, that is to be expressed by the word ‘cessation’.” ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Also good to see TG’s, Joop’s, Frank’s and Eznir’s various comments. ======================================================== 46223 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 10:32pm Subject: Latent Tendencies ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Latent Tendencies (anusaya): 1: The Latent Tendency to Sense-Desire. 2: The Latent Tendency to Aversion & Anger. 3: The Latent Tendency to Sceptical Doubt. 4: The Latent Tendency to Speculative Views. 5: The Latent Tendency to the Conceit 'I am'. 6: The Latent Tendency to Craving for Becoming. 7: The Latent Tendency to plain Blind Ignorance. These are inherently deeply imbedded, hidden in the corners of the mind, where these subtle mentalities ever again exert their detrimental influence over our thoughts, speech & behaviour. Tainted by these impure inclinations, any intention & action will remain having disadvantageous & painful future after-effects... The only tool capable of overcoming & extracting them is the quite Noble Eightfold Way: The Ariya Magga: 1. Right View (samma-ditthi) 2. Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) 3. Right Speech (samma-vaca) 4. Right Action (samma-kammanta) 5. Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) 6. Right Effort (samma-vayama) 7. Right Awareness (samma-sati) 8. Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) The Noble Eightfold Path Explained, Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 245/247). The Noble Eightfold Path, by Bhikkhu Bodhi (WHEEL 308/311). The Buddha's Ancient Path, by Piyadassi Thera (BPS). Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46224 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Howard & all, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > "Whoever sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees > the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." [M.I.191] .... S: MN28.28 (Pali i 191)p283 Nanamoli/Bodhi transl: "Now this has been said by the Blessed One: 'One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.' And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding, based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering..." Metta, Sarah ======== 46225 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study ... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/31/05 1:41:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: > Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a > way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of > rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? > ==== I'm not trying to be smart here, but it just isn't part of the definition of rainbow that it is a tangible object. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course. and "people" can be touched - that is, touch sensations are associated with what we call touching a person. My point was a metaphorical one - analogical. It *seems* that a rainbow is a thing. It is *physically* ungraspable, and it is unfixable even visually. The ungraspability of persons is more subtle, but is a fact as well. BTW, the literal unreality of conventional objects, including persons, is not unique to a "Khun Sujin variety" of Theravada. It is extant throughout Theravada, and Mahayana and Vajrayana as well. See, in Theravada, for example, Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta entitled The Magic of the Mind and also parts of the Sutta Nipata such as the paragraph _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, knowing with regard to the world that "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far -- as a snake, its decrepit old skin. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras of Mahayana, the Diamond-Cutter Sutra, for example, the nonexistence of conventional persons and things is at the forefront, and the Gelugpa "centrist" school of Tibetan Buddhism, and the Yogacara school, in differing ways, present conventional reality as a literal unreality. This ultimate unreality (i.e., merely conventional/concensual reality) of persons and things permeates all schools of Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------------- With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in beings. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and things! ---------------------------------------- Even thoughts and consciousness are social products, such experiences are negations of not being. IMHO :) Kind Regards Herman ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46226 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >Now you already admit that 'Yes, we learn through trial and error. > >That is a fact of life.' So why to bother practising? > > > > > > Yes, the conventional notion of 'practice' is of something that > necessarily involves error. However, I think that in the teachings it > means the actual development of insight (and in this respect it is > similar to effort, determination and the like). > > This brings me back to the question of formal sitting meditation. I > would still like to know exactly what this means, in terms of samatha > bhavana and vipassana bhavana, and why you see it as being more > important than other forms of samatha and vipassana bhavana. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. Actually I do not have any distinction between 'formal practice' and 'actual practice' and 'real practice'. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I will be off for a few months. 46227 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo You may have seen the recent Visuddhimagga passage posted by Larry, describing the mental factors of lobha ('greed'), <>, and moha ('delusion'), <>. That is to say, when the mental factor of lobha/moha is present, the person is said to be greedy/deluded. In the same manner, when we read passages like: 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives', what is being referred to is the underlying mental atate. The (kusala) mental factor of energy (viriya) is present, so the person is said to strive. As I understand it, the Buddha did not use striving to mean the akusala moments that precede kusala, but only to refer to the striving that accompanies kusala (in this regard, 'striving' is similar to 'practice'). So I would say that 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives' refers to different stages or forms of kusala connected with the development of insight. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your response. Kusala arises when there are conditions. Kusala are kusala cittas and their associated cetasikas and they arise with cittaja ruupa. When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala. Someone who is 'doing' something that is not daana or siila or bhaavana then his 'doing' is not kusala. You and DSGs may like this statement; 'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparaamaasa. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I will be off for a few months. 46228 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:23am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo I think you have in mind here the passage 'Meditate, Ananada/Cunda, meditate'. Could you tell us something about the Pali term here that is translated as 'meditate', and what it means? Thanks. Jon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Jon, Apology for lack of time to response. I just check what messages are there to response. I do not know 'who wrote that'. When I saw 'Meditate Ananda, meditate, meditate' I felt strange. That is why I frequently say that using 'pure English' is not as accurate as using Pali in Dhamma setting. With respect, Htoo PS: I will be off for a few months. 46229 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any feedback. > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > > > Kind Regards > > Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, Nice to hear from you. I will be answering your questions when I am back. I will be off for a few months. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46230 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Interesting comments, Phil! You say you KNOW that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but that you FEEL that having a conceptual understanding first is helpful. How can grasping at a concept and trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right Understanding? Doesn't building up conceptual edifices like that do precisely what you KNOW to be wrong, viz., give you expectations about how sati will arise? A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for conceptualization. Dan > Hi Azita and all > > > I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh > Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become > irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual > descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help > us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience > the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual > understanding first? > > You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't > find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the > response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous > post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's > obviously something that keeps coming up for me. > > I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise > is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us > by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper > understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this > talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... > > Metta, > Phil 46231 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] onco111 Dear Htoo, Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are referring to. You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." Dan P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. > When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one > develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala. > > Someone who is 'doing' something that is not daana or siila or > bhaavana then his 'doing' is not kusala. > > You and DSGs may like this statement; > > 'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparaamaasa. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: I will be off for a few months. 46232 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/31/05 11:31:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Dear Htoo, Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are referring to. You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." ------------------------------------ Howard: Well said, Dan! (That is ... I agree! ;-) ---------------------------------- Dan P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. All the best, Htoo! ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46233 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi all, Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? The five aggregates of a human is real? What is real is unimportant? I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? Charles 46234 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any > feedback. > > > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Herman, > > Nice to hear from you. I will be answering your questions when I am > back. I will be off for a few months. > It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). All the best Herman 46235 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:58pm Subject: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Howard, > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > beings. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and > things! ====== May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused enough to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly do understand our collective predicament. I believe in you, Howard. Kind Regards Herman 46236 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for putting your reply together. Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where possible, and conventional standards when impossible. I spend a bit of time each day doing a Sudoku puzzle. It is a numerical puzzle that works on similar principles as dependent origination. Using the logic of: 1]Because of this, that 2]Because of not this, not that 3]Because of this, not that 4]Because of not this, that one can fill in missing numbers till the puzzle is complete. And when one gets it wrong, you soon find out because you cannot proceed if you limit yourself to the rules. My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" for short. As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. And as Phil was candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, Herman, Chris & all, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Herman: The Udana 1:1-3 > > portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to > > dependent origination later. > > --------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think > > that > > may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the > > purpose > > of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. > > ----------------------------------------- > ... > S: Yes, I think of it as like a reviewing on an incomparable scale. I > assume you're referring to the following > > Udana 1:3 (Masefield transl): > > "...And on that occasion, the Lord had been seated for seven days in a > single cross-legged position experiencing the bliss of liberation. > > "The the Lord, with the passing of those seven days, having emerged from > that concentration, throughout the last watch of the night unerringly paid > attention to dependent co-arising in direct order and reverse order....." > S: In `The Path of Discrimination' there is a whole section on the > Buddha's omniscient wisdom (Treatise on Knowledge, ch LXX11-Omniscient and > Unobstructed Knowledge): > > "It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is > omniscient knowledge..." It goes on to enumerate how anything in the past, > future, or presently-arisen is known. In other words, whatever he puts his > mind to is known by this omniscience, including all knowledges attained > and so on." > ***** > > From the commentary to the Udana above: > > "So these three Udanas (I:1, 1:2, 1:3) were proclaimed by the Lord during > the three watches making manifest the majesty, firstly, of his discerning > of the (twelve-membered) mode of conditions, secondly, of his attaining > the destruction of those conditions and, thirdly, of the ariyan path. On > which night? > > "On the seventh night following his enlightenment. For, on the night of > the full moon in (the month) of Visaakhaa, the Lord, having in the first > watch, recollected his former dwelling, in the middle watch cleansed his > heavenly eye, (and) in the last watch inclined his knowledge to dependent > co-arising, (and) having (finally) comprehended the formations belonging > to the triple world in diverse ways, reached perfect, self-enlightenment, > thinking "Now dawn will come up". And immediately following his reaching > of omniscience, the dawn came up. > > "Spending thereafter seven days in that same cross-legged position at the > root of the Bodhi Tree, he paid attention, on the seventh night, to > dependent co-arising during the three watches in the manner stated, and > then gave rise, respectively, to these Udanas." > ***** > S: So, as suggested by Howard, it was a question of what `he paid > attention' to. Here are a couple of earlier quotes from the same > commentary to 1:1 which I like and which may be relevant to the points > Chris and others were discussing too: > ..... > " `That being, this comes to be (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti)': that > condition, such as ignorance and so on, being, this fruition, such as the > formations and so forth, comes to be; `through the arising of that, this > arises (imass' uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati)' through the arising of that > condition of ignorance and so on, this fruition, such as the formations > and so forth, arises – this is the meaning. By way of the statement in the > second and third suttas, viz "That not being, this comes not to be; > through the cessation of that, this ceases", (signifying) the absence of > the formations and so on when there is an absence of ignorance and so > forth......" > ***** > S: And the second one on the `fool': > > "For dependent co-arising is the occurrence of the khandhas together with > (such) fetters, which (fetters) are latent (within those khandhas) on > account of their not having been completely rooted out. And similarly > there is said: "That ignorance, hindered by which, monks, this body comes > to pass for the fool, and that craving to which he is conjoined – that > same ignorance is not abandoned for that fool, nor that craving completely > destroyed. > > "What is the reason for this? That fool, monks, did not lead the > Brahmacariya for the sake of the proper destruction of dukkha (belonging > to the cycle). Therefore, that fool, following the breaking up of the > body, is one going on to (another) body; he, being one going on to > (another) body, is not completely freed from birth, old age and dying" > (Sii24) and so on; whereas annihilation of the cycle will become made > known to those in whom the fetters have been destroyed, since due to the > absence of ignorance, there will be no (further) generation of the > formations, due to the absence of craving, (no further generation of ) > grasping, due to the absence of grasping, (no further generation of) > becoming. > > "For this same reason, he said "Through the cessation, without remainder, > via fading away, of these same six bases of contact, Phagguna, is there > cessation of contact, through the cessation of contact, cessation of > sensation"(Sii14) and so forth. For it is not (a question of) the > non-occurrence of the six bases and so on onwards from attainment of the > topmost path up until parinibbaana; rather `cessation' is mentioned since > it is a state in which (something) does not exist, the state in which the > fetters have been destroyed, that is to be expressed by the word > `cessation'." > ***** > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Also good to see TG's, Joop's, Frank's and Eznir's various comments. > ======================================================== 46237 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 6:45:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes to Htoo: It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). ============================ From FOR ALL WE KNOW, lyric by Rubin Studdard: ______________________ For all we know We may never meet again Before you go Make this moment sweet again & For all we know This may only be a dream We come and we go Like the ripple on a stream ------------------------------------------ and more beautiful, From TIME, by the Alan Parsons Project: _______________________ Goodbye my friends, Maybe forever Goodbye my friends, The stars wait for me Who knows where we shall meet again If ever But time Keeps flowing like a river (on and on) To the sea, to the sea -------------------------------------- With metta and thoughts of timelessness, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46238 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: †˜Cetasik... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/31/05 7:04:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > beings. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and > things! ====== May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? --------------------------------------- Howard: Please - it would be my pleasure! (I used to have another cyber-Buddhist-friend who loved to address me as "Howeird"!) --------------------------------------- It would be in the form of "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. -------------------------------------- Howard: I'm touched to read this. It is mutual, I assure you. ------------------------------------- Your symptoms as you describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither here nor there, of course. ------------------------------------ Howard: :-) ------------------------------------ And as long as you remain confused enough to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly do understand our collective predicament. I believe in you, Howard. ---------------------------------- Howard: Again, Herman, this touches me! --------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46239 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi again, Herman (and Tep) - In a message dated 5/31/05 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 6:45:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes to Htoo: It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). ======================= Sneaky of me to change your identity, Herman, eh? (My apologies to you both. I had just finished reading a post by Tep on another list!) With metta, Howard, or somebody or other! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46240 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhistmedi... Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > > beings. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, > lunatic that > > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving > people, and at > > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of > persons and > > things! > ====== > May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of > "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you > describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither > here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused enough > to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly > do understand our collective predicament. > > I believe in you, Howard. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 46241 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 5:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? buddhistmedi... Dear Howard (and Herman and Htoo) - It was alright to mix up names once in a while -- I have done the same too. Thank you for your thought, Howard, and thanks to Herman for the two nice poems. Indeed, I have no idea whether or not I'll be around tomorrow. With metta and karuna, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Herman (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 5/31/05 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > Hi, Tep - > >> Sneaky of me to change your identity, Herman, eh? (My apologies to you > both. I had just finished reading a post by Tep on another list!) > > With metta, > Howard, or somebody or other! > > 46242 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 6:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study Evan_Stamato... Tep, Your first paragraph has resulted in some interesting thoughts about this. All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? In fact if we can make an assumption that this process tends to infinity (there is not reason that it doesn't but then there is no evidence that it does), then the logically mathematical conclusion is that as this process of breaking down microscopic particles into smaller particles and emtpty space tends to infinity, all matter tends to empty space: ie, all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. Metta, Evan Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. Respectfully, Tep 46243 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 8:43:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. ======================== As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and more or less complete. I believe that an arahant knows but one truth, THE truth, s/he knows that truth perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite different from what any of us knows. I believe that it transcends and incorporates everything that we in any way have a right to call "truth". For all but arahants, however, conventional truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations available to us beings of limited wisdom. Those worldlings, Tep, who "prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in ALL [emphasis mine] situations" are fooling themselves, for, being worldlings, it is NOT POSSIBLE, for them to depend solely on paramattha sacca. Worldlings, even lesser ariyans, are incapable of that! As for arahants, concepts are necessary for them also, but for the sole purpose of communication and not for understanding - for they have pa~n~naparamita (my presumed Pali for "perfection of wisdom"). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46244 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. The different schools of Buddhism have different thoughts on this matter, but the arahant doesn't belong to any `school' of Buddhism. He/she knows-- we just want to know. However, philosophizing about it and speaking as if one is already an arahant, and knows what they know, is not the way to know. The only way to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 46245 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Azita, Howard, Larry, Dan... > Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the > post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question and > the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion > then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even more, > but that's not my intention. Ph: Not irritated now, but the irritation when it arises helps to reflect on things. Very helpful. These days it's my eyes that are irritated (still ahven't gotten around to getting glasses) so I'm taking a break from the computer. I will be back on Saturday. Thanks for the feedback, all. Metta, Phil . 46246 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 0:25am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 209 - Zeal/chanda (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Kusala chanda is a necessary factor for the development of the eightfold Path. If there is no wish-to-do one does not develop it. However, we do not have to try to have chanda, it arises because of its own conditions together with the citta which develops the eightfold Path. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, XLV, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Chapter IV, II, Restraint of Passion, §3) that chanda is one of the factors which are “forerunners” of the arising of the ariyan eightfold Path: * "Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the sun, so possession of desire (chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the ariyan eightfold way. Of a monk who is possessed of desire, monks, it may be expected that he will cultivate the ariyan eightfold way, that he will make much of the ariyan eightfold way…" * When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas. There are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and “investigation” or “reflection” (vímaÿså, which is paññå cetasika)(1). When these factors have been developed they become the four “Roads to Success” (iddhipådas) leading to the attainment of the “supernormal powers” (abhiññås). There are five “supernormal powers” which are developed through jhåna (Vis. Chapter XII). The sixth power, which is the extinction of all defilements, is developed through vipassanå. Chanda or one of the three other “Roads to Success” can be predominant in the development of vipassanå (2). *** 1) See Dhammasangaùi §269, and Atthasåliní I, Part VII, 212,213. Citta can be a predominant factor, but not all cittas; only the cittas which are accompanied by at least two hetus and perform the function of javana can be predominant. For example, lobha-múla-citta and kusala citta can be predominant, since they are rooted in more than one hetu, but moha-múla-citta cannot, since it is rooted only in moha. In the field of kusala, when chanda, viriya or vimaÿsa are not predominant, there can be firmness of kusala citta which is predominant. 2) The four “Roads to Success” are among the thirty seven factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, Visuddhimagga XXII, 33. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46247 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:31am Subject: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop and Phil: > (...(snip) ... > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). Hallo Tep (and others), Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" I mentioned the first three because I think this three are the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? Because I think a human being (also a Theravadin) is a social being, I have been studying which of the dhammas can be called social, that is in any way directed to other humans: Of 'Rupas' the Vinatti, bodily and vocal intimation, necessary for the communication with other persons. Of 'Cetasikas' the three brahma-vihaara; more or less also issa (jealousy), hiri (moral shame) and possibly some others are 'social' in the way that other persons (real or in the mind) play a role in the arising of them. Of 'Cittas' the social one is forgotten, I define it as "the intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another person". Metta Joop 46248 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:51am Subject: Audio- India 2001, Phil's qu, Kom's news, taking it easy... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've uploaded (or is it downloaded??)the re-edited recordings from India, October 2001, discussions with A.Sujin. They can be found on dhammastudygroup.org. I believe they contain many gems. Listening -- for me, the quality is very clear if I listen to them on the computer with ear-plugs only and when downloaded onto my i-pod. If anyone comes across any glitches, pls let us know. If anyone has trouble listening or down-loading and would like us to burn and mail an mp3, pls send me (off-list) your name and add in a way I can just cut and paste for mailing (even if you've sent it many times before!). If you didn't receive the India 04 recordings and would like a 'burnt' copy of this at the same time, pls indicate and expect delays for any mailing as we're pretty busy these days, esp Jon. I hope many of you listen and post any extracts you find helpful or disagree with. I was spot-testing just now and heard these comments which I think are relevant to Phil's discussion about Azita's question and the good comments Howard and Dan added too: ***** Qu about studying, even though there is clinging to results, so that panna can arise later... K.Sujin: "No expectation, because the function of panna is to detach, the only thing is to detach. It's so hard to detach because everyone has lots of accumulation of attachment. So who can help one to become detached? Only panna can. So when there is attachment to whatever it is -- wanting to know more about the Tipitaka or wanting to be good or any kind of wanting, it's lobha, because lobha can have anything as its object. Only lokuttara dhammas cannot be the object of lobha. Whenever there's lobha, there's no panna and whenever there's panna, there's no lobha. Anytime. It's hard to see lobha." ***** [30mins later- On the recording, the names of other participants are given at the beginning, in order of 'appearance'. One of the main participants is Kom, our really great co-moderator until a few months ago. As I was writing this, he just called me from Thailand, having moved there recently from the States. I know many old members will be glad to hear news of him. He will be ordaining in July for a few months at least and will be living at a temple in Chengrai.] Metta, Sarah Another quote from this recording: K.Sujin: "When one does not expect anything, for example, any result or panna, great panna, one lives happily with the development of understanding and very naturally because one can see one's own accumulations and one knows one cannot have things one hasn't accumulated yet." Qu about not liking one's accumulations -- K.Sujin: "Instead of knowing, it's deep-rooted lobha which shows up. Self doesn't like it again. When there's more understanding, one takes it easy - it doesn't matter because it's arisen by conditions, completely arisen by conditions. We have the latent tendency for lobha, dosa and other akusala, but if the akusala moment doesn't arise, how can one know one has it? So it's good to know the truth of one's accumulations and this is the way to develop panna, because panna can know reality." ========================================== 46249 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:17am Subject: HTOO (was: Does stuff happen?) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: >I will be answering your questions when I am > back. I will be off for a few months. ... S: Thanks for letting us know. A few months sounds like a long time and I'll greatly look forward to your return. I think you've been making a really great contribution to DSG these last few months and it will seem strange without you around. If you have a chance to pop in from time to time, (any internet cafes on the mountain top??), of course we'd be glad. A few last rushed comments to get up to date: 'root of the tree' - I came across something in a commentary which said the meaning of 'root' in this context means 'vicinity'. primary and secondary - Maybe more later. you would say water (cohesion) is secondary just because it is only experienced through the mind-door. Maybe language use. #45700 breath - "at this stage the object is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory sign and it is just the object that can be sensed by everyone when he or she is breathing through the nose." This is not as I understand - only the breath conditioned by citta for a start...more to discuss later. #45913 queery over yr example of upanissaya paccaya with regard to tadarammanas (vipaka cittas) following 7th javana citta. Tadarammanas are result of kamma condition, but of course all kamma needs pakatu upanissaya paccaya to support and bring its result....More to discuss on this. Also in #45910 and another post where you give the examples of the javana cittas conditioning the next ones by upanissaya paccaya. In this case, I'd think the main condition is asevana paccaya, but I'm sure you're right that upanissiya paccaya is there too. (no time to check details now, just trying to respond before you go off-line). Apr7th ?# You refer to how 'true jhana may not be 'right concentration' or 'samma-samadhi' when there is no 'right view' or 'samma-dithi'. As I understand, there must be right concentration and right understanding, but there are different kinds of these, so what I think you mean is not right concentration and right understanding of the the Noble Eightfold Path. For any moments of samatha development, there must be right concentration and understanding of the level of samatha, however. Metta and friendship, Sarah p.s If you have time, pls listen to the recordings I just referred to and give us your comments when you return or pop in:-). Thank you again for all your help and for all your posts, Htoo. I've learnt a lot from your threads and our discussions which I always appreciate. ======== 46250 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Interesting comments, Phil! > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > conceptualization. ... :-) Oh, that way you have with words....even though she says it so sweetly and politely, not many people can take this lack of gratification either.... "it's a long, long story...." , "...another situation?" Always good when you pop by, Dan.....hope you hang around long enough for Nina to see you. I think you'll like all the edited recordings I just referred to. More will be uploaded in due course, so keep an eye on the site in case you miss my announcements here. On the Thai side, all the recordings which leave the foundation have been edited and so I'm now working on this big project on the English side with Jon's help and K.Sujin's advice. It's slow. As you can imagine, I'm kept busy with all these projects and am completely giving up my teaching/psychology business and consultancy work this coming Saturday after 20 years of doing it here:-):-). Metta, Sarah ====== 46251 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:42am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), Thank you very much for your comments. I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. An ultimate truth, to my understanding, is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship between different things. The mind (I am not suggesting it exists independently) is capable of relating things together. It can relate things to an infinite level, by which process any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing at all. This may also be indicated as a state of no-mind. This is the level of reality, and truth just does not apply, there are no relationships. What are we to say about it? The less, the better :-) All truths are conventional by their very nature. The first jhana is not the same as the second jhana is not the same as the third jhana and so on. What is real in the first jhana is real in the first jhana, but it doesn't apply when I am talking to my mother on the phone. What is real when I am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. And when there is nothing, there is neither nothing nor not nothing..... Kind Regards Herman PS When you tell me you are confused, then I will agree with you. And when you tell me you are not confused, likewise :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters > are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, > computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone > say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the > macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and > the matters don't exist? > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - > - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: > samvrti-satya). > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- > sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > Dhamma. > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that > he is confused. Please advise. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ==== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > > > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief > in > > > beings. > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, > > lunatic that > > > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving > > people, and at > > > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of > > persons and > > > things! > > ====== > > May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of > > "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you > > describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither > > here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused > enough > > to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly > > do understand our collective predicament. > > > > I believe in you, Howard. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > Herman 46252 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? ... S: I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'concept formation'. Would you kindly explain. On the other thread: --- Egbert wrote: > Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? > There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and > futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where > possible, and conventional standards when impossible. ... S: Hmmm.... I specially gave the quotes on omniscience from the Sutta-Pitaka, the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, and I can give a lot more. You may wish to discuss the authenticity of this collection, but then I'd pass you on to Tep:-). When is any ultimate reality from the past or future known at the present? When the Buddha's omniscient wisdom is applied to it:-). "All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. All that is future, it knows... All that is presently-arisen it knows... Eye and visible objects: all that it knows... Ear and sounds.... Nose and odours.... Tongue and flavours... Body and tangible objects.... Mind and ideas......" .... <...> > My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to > Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive > at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the > phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" > for short. ... S: I think the aim is to eradicate present ignorance by directly understanding the present dhammas appearing. "There is but one moment (kha.no) and occasion (samayo), monks, for living the Brahmacariya" (AN iv 227). ... > > As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest > assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. ... S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict the opportunities for finding the solution? ... >And as Phil was > candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the > puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) ... S: This is very true. We think we don't like attachment, for example, because we've heard it's at the root of our problems and yet we cannot live without it. Most the time we have no interest in solving the puzzle, but better to be realistic and see whatever is conditioned for what it is -- sankhara dhamma, not me. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for also telling us you'll be away for a few days and glad the family are worldly-fine. ======= 46253 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration egberdina Hi Joop, And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Joop and Phil: > > > (...(snip) ... > > > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. > It is > > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings > do > > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading > of the > > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only > because > > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and > anatta). > > > Hallo Tep (and others), > > Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. > You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving > kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" > I mentioned the first three because I think this three are > the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while > equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. > But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? > > > Because I think a human being (also a Theravadin) is a social being, > I have been studying which of the dhammas can be called social, that > is in any way directed to other humans: > > Of 'Rupas' the Vinatti, bodily and vocal intimation, necessary for > the communication with other persons. > > Of 'Cetasikas' the three brahma-vihaara; more or less also issa > (jealousy), hiri (moral shame) and possibly some others are 'social' > in the way that other persons (real or in the mind) play a role in > the arising of them. > > Of 'Cittas' the social one is forgotten, I define it as "the > intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another > person". > > Metta > > Joop 46254 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Herman - Thank you both for your thoughtfulness. I also believe that the social aspect of the Dhamma is very important in Buddhism because no Buddhist is an island. But does equanimity as the fourth factor of brahma-vihaara have a social value? Joop: I think this three are the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? Herman : And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Tep: I also agree with Herman that the three Path factors are social. My understanding tells me that upekkha as the 4th brahma-vihaara is the neutral state (with panna) that is in perfect equilibrium with the other three factors. Without upekkha there is no balancing act to condition peace of mind. For example, you can "spread" it to an individual who irritates you: 'This person is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.' Upekkha also can be used to protect against raga (desire, lust) that may be caused by biased metta for an opposite sex. Equanimity is the fouth leg of the brahma-vihaara table that protects against disappointments when the other three factors fail to produce positive results (e.g. even with metta and karuna and mudita spreading out, some people still dislike you). Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a > social context are quite meaningless also. > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. > > You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving > > kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" > > I mentioned the first three because I think this three are > > the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while > > equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. > > But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? > > > > 46255 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - In a message dated 6/1/05 6:00:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict the opportunities for finding the solution? ===================== The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute *any* other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as 'while we are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly indulging'. Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation in general, I mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that depends. At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, is heartening, and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us away from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from ongoing mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in solitude (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46256 From: connie Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 9:13am Subject: out of social context nichiconn Hi, Herman, Joop, Howard, All, Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371]. peace, connie 46257 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:15am Subject: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi all - On another list, someone made brief mention of the Malunkyaputta Sutta findable at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-095.html I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. As I see it, an important teaching is given with regard to each of these: With regard to the "non-occurring domain", no "being caught" can actually occur "there", because there IS no "there", and with regard to the "occurring domain" it is all impersonal and should be observed only as it is in itself - mere phenomena rolling on, with no underlying core of self or substance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46258 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 6/1/05 12:14:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: Hi, Herman, Joop, Howard, All, Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371]. peace, connie ======================= Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be helpful. IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46259 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and all - Why is the Malunkyaputta sutta valuable? I am not not sure what you meant by the "non-occurring domain" and the "occurring domain". Could you please give clear descriptions for both and what the Buddha advised his disciples to do in each situation? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > On another list, someone made brief mention of the Malunkyaputta Sutta findable at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-095.html I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't > consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. 46260 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhistmedi... Hi, James, Howard, Evan, Herman - Thank you all for your unique and interesting thoughts on truths, arahant's knowledge, reality, no-mind, emptiness and nothingness. It seems to me that we are close in some issues, but I cannot draw a single conclusion from our discussion (and I do not worry at all). Below is a list of the highlights of your thoughts -- try to make a conclusion, if you can! Evan (# 46262): All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? ... ... all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. Howard (# 46243): As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and more or less complete. For all but arahants, however, conventional truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations available to us beings of limited wisdom.... An arahant knows but one truth, THE truth, ... perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite different from what any of us knows. James (#46244): I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. ... The only way to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. Herman (# 46251): I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. -- An ultimate truth.. is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship between different things. -- The mind can relate things to an infinite level, by which process any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing at all. . (state of no-mind) ... truth just does not apply, there are no relationships. -- All truths are conventional by their very nature. ... What is real when I am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), > (snipped) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? > > > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). > > > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. > > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. > > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > > Dhamma. > > > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. > > 46261 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/1/05 3:46:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard and all - Why is the Malunkyaputta sutta valuable? I am not not sure what you meant by the "non-occurring domain" and the "occurring domain". Could you please give clear descriptions for both and what the Buddha advised his disciples to do in each situation? Respectfully, Tep ========================== I'll get back to you about this tomorrow, Tep. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46262 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - I have time now, so I won't wait until tomorrow. I'll copy the sutta here and add my comments in context: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 Malunkyaputta Sutta To Malunkyaputta Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Here now, Malunkyaputta: What will I say to the young monks when you — aged, old, elderly, along in years, come to the last stage of life — ask for an admonition in brief?" "Lord, even though I'm aged, old, elderly, along in years, come to the last stage of life, may the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I'll understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I'll become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord."1 "The sounds cognizable via the ear... "The aromas cognizable via the nose... "The flavors cognizable via the tongue... "The tactile sensations cognizable via the body... "The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord." -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing pertains to dhammas "cognizable via a sense door that are unobserved by one — that one has never before observed, that one doesn't observe, and that are not to be observed by one, and for these there is no desire or passion or love there". As the note points out, there may well be desire with respect to the *idea* of such unobserved phenomena, but the desire does not lie THERE, with their actual experience, since they are *not* experienced (and may well not have occurred at all, but just be *able* to be cognized *were* conditions for their arising or observation in place. It is the realm of such non-occurring or at least unobserved phenomena that I referred to as the non-occurring realm. The point made with respect to the imagined objects of that realm is that no desire can actually be involved with them. And desire for the merely imagined or conjectured, when fully realized as such, starts to become ludicrous. Having dispensed with what is not observed, the Buddha then goes on to discuss phenomena that actually do arise and are observed, and with respect to these the teaching is an admonition to avoid reification of the subject and of the object. In the seen there shall just be the seen - there being nothing substantial and knowable that underlies the phenomenal object, and no self to be found underlying the knowing. --------------------------------------------------- "Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."2 ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This is the same teaching as in the Bahiya Sutta, and Bhikkhu ~Nanananda makes much of it in his commentary on the Kalakamara Sutta. In the rest of the sutta, Malunkyaputta that shows through his words that he understood the Buddha's teaching, and states, with the Buddha's approval, that maintaining mindfulness is the means of avoiding getting hooked by contacts via any of the sense doors. -------------------------------------------- "I understand in detail, lord, the meaning of what the Blessed One has said in brief: Seeing a form — mindfulness lapsed — attending to the theme of 'endearing,' impassioned in mind, one feels and remains fastened there. One's feelings, born of the form, grow numerous, Greed & annoyance injure one's mind. Thus amassing stress, one is said to be far from Unbinding. Hearing a sound... Smelling an aroma... Tasting a flavor... Touching a tactile sensation... Knowing an idea — mindfulness lapsed — attending to the theme of 'endearing,' impassioned in mind, one feels and remains fastened there. One's feelings, born of the idea, grow numerous, Greed & annoyance injure one's mind. Thus amassing stress, one is said to be far from Unbinding. Not impassioned with forms — seeing a form with mindfulness firm — dispassioned in mind, one knows and doesn't remain fastened there. While one is seeing a form — and even experiencing feeling — it falls away and doesn't accumulate. Thus one fares mindfully. Thus not amassing stress, one is said to be in the presence of Unbinding. Not impassioned with sounds... Not impassioned with aromas... Not impassioned with flavors... Not impassioned with tactile sensations... Not impassioned with ideas — knowing an idea with mindfulness firm — dispassioned in mind, one knows and doesn't remain fastened there. While one is knowing an idea — and even experiencing feeling — it falls away and doesn't accumulate. Thus one fares mindfully. Thus not amassing stress, one is said to be in the presence of Unbinding. "It's in this way, lord, that I understand in detail the meaning of what the Blessed One said in brief." "Good, Malunkyaputta. Very good. It's good that you understand in detail this way the meaning of what I said in brief." [The Buddha then repeats the verses.] "It's in this way, Malunkyaputta, that the meaning of what I said in brief should be regarded in detail." Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, having been admonished by the admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Malunkyaputta became another one of the arahants. Notes 1. It is possible, of course, to have desire for a sight that one has not seen. Strictly speaking, however, the desire is not "there" at the unseen sight. Rather, it's there at the present idea of the unseen sight. This distinction is important for the purpose of the practice. 2. See Ud I.10, where the Buddha gives these same instructions to Bahiya of the Bark-cloth. See also: MN 18; SN XXIII.2. ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46263 From: mlnease@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context mlnease Hi Howard (and Connie), > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". > However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be > helpful. Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally. > IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't > support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. Well--for argument's sake--if by 'secondary teachings' you mean the AP, I'll grant that they do suggest to some a psuedo-Dhamma (though of course I think the 'some' are mistaken). > The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are > filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this > to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere. When I say that beings are unreal in the discourses, I mean that they are pa.n.natti--depending on context meaning 'designation; name; concept; idea; a regulation' as I'm sure you know. This sense of 'unreality' seems a little different to me from the sense of 'illusory' from the Mahayana sutras. Just my reading, maybe. mike 46264 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Vism.XIV,163 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 163. 'Delusion' has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. It is manifested as the absence of right theory (see Ch. XVII,52), or it is manifested as darkness. Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable. 46265 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 10:32pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 210 - Zeal/chanda (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Thus we see that there are many kinds and degrees of chanda. Chanda is conditioned by the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. Chanda is saòkhåra dhamma, conditioned dhamma. Different kinds of chanda arise due to different conditions. It is hard to distinguish the different kinds of cetasikas from each other since there are several cetasikas at a time which accompany citta and assist it in carrying out its function. As we have seen, the “universals” arise with each citta. Summarizing them, they are: contact (phassa) feeling (vedanå) remembrance or “perception” (saññå) volition (cetanå) concentration (ekaggatå) life-faculty (jívitindriya) attention (manasikåra) As regards the six “particulars”, they do not arise with every citta but they arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Summarizing them, they are: applied thinking (vitakka) sustained thinking (vicåra) determination (adhimokkha) energy or effort (viriya) enthusiasm or rapture (píti) zeal or wish-to-do (chanda) ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46266 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 9:46pm Subject: Reaching Peace ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Brevity is Clarity: A deity once spoke this verse to the Blessed One: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should do meritorious deeds which brings happiness! The Exalted Buddha responded: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should drop the fleshy bait of this evanescent world! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 2 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46267 From: "vvk63" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 4:41am Subject: Hi! vvk63 Hello! I am new to this group. 46268 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Howard, Connie, Joop, Herman, Tep & all, I'd like to join in this useful thread too. Howard:> > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings".However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be helpful.<< > Mike:> Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally.< <...> Mike:>It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere.< ***** S: I think you’ve expressed this well. How about the Mahaahatthipadama Sutta, MN28, as a good example of what you say and as a ‘suttic reference’ to ‘back-up’ the Vism passage Connie quoted? Firstly, to repeat the passage: Connie:> Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371].< ***** S: MN28, Mahaahatthipadopama Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi trans): (After listing the five aggregates affected by clinging..) “And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element.” <....> “Now both the internal earth element (S:later also for water, fire and air elements)and the external earth element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate toward the earth element........ "When even this external earth element, great as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, disappearance, and change, what of this body, which is clung to by craving and lasts but a while? There can be no considering that as ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘I am’. “So then, if others abuse, revile, scold, and harass a bhikkhu [who has seen this element as it actually is], he understands thus: ‘This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent.” ***** S: Then Sariputta continues by giving the simile of the saw and how even when savagely attacked by bandits ‘he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching.’ In brief, by understanding that what we take for oneself and other beings are merely elements, conditioned to arise and fall away, this understanding will lead to greater social harmony, acceptance of whatever is arisen and to greater metta, compassion and equanimity towards others, especially those who harm us in anyway. This is why later in the same sutta, the passage I quoted the other day is given: "Now this has been said by the Blessed One: 'One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.' "And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding, based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering..." ***** S: In other words, the insight into conditioned dhammas or khandhas usually taken for ‘self’ or ‘person’ and the uprooting of clinging with regard to them is the path. Following the path by seeing the elements for what they are will condition purer brahma viharas which are not taken for ‘mine’. The ariyans without any wrong view can have far purer social concerns and the arhants without any deflements or ignorance of elements remaining, purer still. The Buddha, of course, had limitless compassion and the other qualities for all beings. Hence we read: “Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus ‘Worldly life is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view’, there descends the Great Compassion for beings.” (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great Compassion). I'll look forward to any further comments or reflections on elements. Metta, Sarah ========== 46269 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why > restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ===================== > The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute > *any* > other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as > 'while we > are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly > indulging'. ... S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for living the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment conditioned as it is in many complex ways? So if, for example, right now any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and satipatthana has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently arisen ones. .... > Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation > in general, I > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. ... S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. This is the way that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. .... > When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > depends. ... S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to help or reflect in a useful way. ... >At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, > is heartening, > and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us > away > from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, > excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from > ongoing > mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in > solitude > (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). .... S: Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude. Whenever we think there will be more or ongoing mindfulness or guarding of the senses at a later time or at a different place, it suggests there's no mindfulness at this very 'one moment and occasion' now. I don't know how far we can take this thread, Howard, but I'll be glad to hear any of your further comments. What really distinguishes 'meditation in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak to others as opposed to metta in solitude? Metta, Sarah ======= 46270 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, >tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant >feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not >pay particular attention? > > Very good question(s), Howard. Yes, I think they are fully hidden. Normally, we are 'aware' of people and things, not specifically sights or sounds. But even if we direct our attention to just one doorway, there is not the direct experience of visible object or sound or hardness, because the object of our attention will be vested with the same underlying misconceptions, beliefs, etc. as ever. Directed attention to a single doorway or its object is not the same as the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object. As I see it, it is not possible to attend to a particular dhamma by choice; it is only possible to attend to one's own (necessarily flawed) concept of that dhamma. >[Jon:] I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the >Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to >awareness of nama and rupa than others. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting >lost in thought? > > I think this is covered by my comments above. Whatever it is we might think we are paying attention to, it will not be a dhamma of any kind. Dhammas are apparent only to panna. Getting lost in thought is not kusala of course, but then again it is nothing more than thinking accompanied by attachment and/or ignorance, and no different really to other moments when we are lost in the visible object or sound or our conceptualising about what has been seen or heard. There is no reason why there cannot be awareness of that thinking with attachment and/or ignorance, if awareness should arise. It is 'normal' everyday life. It is the 'consciousness with lust' of the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta. Jon 46271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right effort, resolute striving [was, 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest'] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >This is one of the rare moments I have waited for -- when we can reach >an agreement and the case is closed! > A rare moment indeed! >T: Yes, of course, that's how I see it too. Right effort accompanies right >mindfulness when right view is being developed; similarly, right effort >and right mindfulness induce right thought, right action, and right >livlihood. Importantly, right concentration (defined in MN 10 and DN 22 >as the 1st through 4th jhana) is supported by the other 7 Path factors. >When all the 8 Path factors arise together, both samatha & vipassana >are yoked together. > Just to be quite clear on it, 'resolute striving' and 'right effort' are references to the mental factor of effort that accompanies certain moments of kusala consciousness, and not to any kind of (conventional) striving that precedes those moments of kusala consciousness. Are we agreed? Jon 46272 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- Egbert wrote: > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > ... > S: I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'concept formation'. Would you > kindly explain. ===== This will be my last post for nearly two weeks, so I'm afraid I won't be able to clarify further if the need arises. There seems to be a general acceptance of the "existence" of concepts. By asking after concept formation, I merely meant to inquire about the processes or conditions that lead to there being concepts. I then asked further about whether concepts "existed" in reality or conceptually. I wish you strength, courage and good cheer to mark the changing of direction after 20 years of effort, and wish you and Jon all the very best for at least the next twenty years :-) Thanks to everyone for good discussions. Kind Regards Herman > > On the other thread: > --- Egbert wrote: > > > Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? > > There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and > > futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where > > possible, and conventional standards when impossible. > ... > S: Hmmm.... I specially gave the quotes on omniscience from the > Sutta-Pitaka, the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, and I can give a lot more. You may > wish to discuss the authenticity of this collection, but then I'd pass you > on to Tep:-). > > When is any ultimate reality from the past or future known at the present? > When the Buddha's omniscient wisdom is applied to it:-). > > "All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without > obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. > > All that is future, it knows... > All that is presently-arisen it knows... > Eye and visible objects: all that it knows... > Ear and sounds.... > Nose and odours.... > Tongue and flavours... > Body and tangible objects.... > Mind and ideas......" > .... > <...> > > My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to > > Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive > > at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the > > phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" > > for short. > ... > S: I think the aim is to eradicate present ignorance by directly > understanding the present dhammas appearing. > > "There is but one moment (kha.no) and occasion (samayo), monks, for living > the Brahmacariya" (AN iv 227). > ... > > > > As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest > > assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. > ... > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ... > >And as Phil was > > candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the > > puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) > ... > S: This is very true. We think we don't like attachment, for example, > because we've heard it's at the root of our problems and yet we cannot > live without it. Most the time we have no interest in solving the puzzle, > but better to be realistic and see whatever is conditioned for what it is > -- sankhara dhamma, not me. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s thx for also telling us you'll be away for a few days and glad the > family are worldly-fine. > ======= 46273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your quotes from Dispeller, this is now very clear. I am really grateful, I was thinking about it during our vacation. I frwd this to Htoo's personal mail. Nina. op 28-05-2005 14:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: I have a passage I'd marked (and forgotten about)in 'Dispeller' > (Sammohavinodanii) which clearly confirms Nina's explanation of the Vsim > Tiika comments with regard to lokuttara cittas arising without > sammaasankappa when 2nd-5th jhanas are used as basis: > > Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: 46274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 30-05-2005 22:46 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: However I still envision myself as > practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble > Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so > on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism > than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last > night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing > the discipline of the Dharma back to life. N: Very interesting. What good sila did you read about in the Talmud? Your remarks make me think of the Sigalovada sutta (Diigha Nikaaya, sutta 31), where Sigala followed the family tradition, honouring the six quarters. The Buddha gave his practice a deeper dimension. He spoke about desire, anger, delusion and fear that make one commit evil. He emphasized good friendship. Kusala siila is wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. A: Still I am unsure about whether it is necessary to have firm belief in > a single creator god, for personal reasons and carrying out the family > tradition. Still reading the Talmud and getting the same morality > lessons strengthened could help. Prayer, and buying into monotheistic > concepts and thinking all good comes from such an omnipotent god, > scare me a little bit, I would much rather work with the Dharma at > this point. N: What the Buddha taught and what we do not find in other religions: the truth of anatta. We can gradually understand that kusala and akusala need many conditions for their arising, many factors operating just for one single moment of kusala citta or akusala citta. This shows that there is no person or self who can control dhammas. But understanding of them can be developed. A:.... Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For > example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, > "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone > else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries > this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something > similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a > heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition > is to be carried out. N: This shows that the right cause will bring the right result. However, heavenly rebirth is not the ultimate goal, better still: the end of rebirth, this is the third noble Truth. As to family tradition: you can just take out what you find inspiring and helpful. You say: First we should understand what are the objects included in the four foundations of mindfulness. Any dhamma appearing now thorugh eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. These dhammas appear also when reading the Talmud, or writing posts, thinking about the family tradition. Nina. 46275 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions nilovg Hi Tep and Sarah, Good questions from Tep. I am glad Sarah answered them very clearly, I am just back. I can add something at one point only. I put one addition at the end. op 31-05-2005 09:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > --- Tep Sastri wrote: >> >> 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk >> generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, >> upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, >> unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) >> >> Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara >> citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of >> these? >> Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? >> Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? >> Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? >> Why? > .... Sarah: 1.kama-vacara at moments of satipatthana when the 4 right efforts are > being developed and lokuttara at moments when all Noble Eightfold Path > factors arise and the 4 right efforts are ‘fulfilled’. > > 2.references to the 4 right efforts are always (as I understand) in the > context of satipatthana and supramundane consciousness. Checking the > context in DN22 to confirm, I see it comes under the 4NT. Nina: I think also in kusala that is not included in satipatthana, samatha without satipatthana. Sarah: 3. no lobha with kusala (or sobhana to be precise) cittas. ‘Generates > desire’ or ‘rouses his will’ (Walshe tansl) can easily be misunderstood. > > 4. :-) remember, all dhammas are anatta. Chanda is anatta, vayamo is > anatta. Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is > right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that > understanding as you and Jon agreed, I believe. We can say a monk > generates chanda, but this has to be understood as being conventional > language as Howard has pointed out. > ***** Nina:Some addition, taken from Visuddhimagga studies: We are bound to meet obstacles in the development of vipassanaa, due to our defilements. But this text is a reminder not to loose courage, but to continue developing understanding of the realities that appear in daily life. It should be without hesitation, withour reluctance, without reserve, no matter whether the objects are pleasant or unpleasant, kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. This is the zeal of Dhamma, Dhammachanda.> Nina. 46276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >Our conversation on satipatthana, and the ways it may be developed, >continues in this post. > There is a lot of 'meat' in your post. I hope you don't mind if I take just a part of it to begin with ;-)) >Jon: Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 >bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that >the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily >posture ... > >Tep: But don't forget that the sutta also specifically states that the >breathing meditation should be carried out while the bhikkhu is sitting >with legs crossed and straight back. > I think you are referring to this well-known passage from the sutta: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. ..." On my reading, this passage is not a teaching on how breathing meditation should be carried out, but is a description of the person to whom the next part of the teaching (the 4 tetrads) is addressed. Please note particularly the words 'gone to the forest, ... sits down etc. and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him.' This describes a monk in whom both samatha with breath as object and mindfulness are already well developed. Only this person is capable of the further development that is described in the following 4 tetrads. >Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are >one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to >develop such conditions are another. ... >For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which >requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, >concentration, and insights. ... > > The problem with regarding the various parts of the section on kayanupasana as describing 'tools' is that not all of the descriptions in the kayanupasana section fit into that pigeon-hole. Please consider the following passage: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ...; in bending and in stretching...; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ...; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured...; in defecating and in urinating; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." Is there any 'tool' described here? I don't think so. I see it as a description of ordinary, everyday, monks' activities. And I think the rest of the kayanupasana section can also be seen as describing activities forming part of the life lead by different kinds of monks, rather than actions to be deliberately undertaken for the sake of a satipatthana 'practice'. That's all for this post. I hope to come back on more of your points later! Jon 46277 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:10am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop and Herman - > > Thank you both for your thoughtfulness. I also believe that the social > aspect of the Dhamma is very important in Buddhism because no > Buddhist is an island. But does equanimity as the fourth factor of > brahma-vihaara have a social value? > Hallo Herbert, Tep and all Herbert: And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Joop: You are right, I don't know why I did not mention these aspects of the Noble Eighfold Path that are cetasikas too. Perhaps I forgot because they can in Abhidhamma be found under the heading 'abstinences' and I think I skipped that chapter because the word 'abstinence' sounds more inner-directed than other-directed to me. In general: I don't know why 'right speech', 'right action' and 'right livelihood' are formulated positive (how to behave in a ethical way), but the explanations most times are formulated in a negative way (not to lie, not to kill, abstinence from alcohol etc). Is that because formulating negative is more easy or is there a more spiritual reason? In fact I prefer the positive formulation. Tep: But does equanimity as the fourth factor of brahma-vihaara have a social value? … My understanding tells me that upekkha as the 4th brahma-vihaara is the neutral state (with panna) that is in perfect equilibrium with the other three factors. Without upekkha there is no balancing act to condition peace of mind. For example, you can "spread" it to an individual who irritates you. … Joop: That's correct; but that 'spreading' in an activity on the individual inner level; to 'touch' the other person in a compassionate way, one needs some of the other dhammas, listed in the Abhidhamma. What I try to do here is to ask if it's possible to analyse social relations (= the interactions between human beings) with the frame of reference of the Abhidhamma. And analysis is something else than formulating intentions of individuals. I know how important that intention are, but that's not the topic on this moment. My conclusions: the Abhidhamma is very good is describing in a objective way the process of arising and falling away of dhammas in the individual; and it's good in describing the processes between individuals in the same objective way. Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions dnies the truth of anatta and anicca. The MIDDLE WAY, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment! And isn't is so that we, buddhists, have experience with The Middle Way? Metta Joop 46278 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, that's what I wrote. Did you not understand my statements? > >Or is the difference one of degree only? > >James: Not sure what you mean. What is the difference and what is the >degree? (I don't do well answering leading questions) > I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). >James: ... The Satipatthana Sutta >lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 >parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they >don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that >the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case of mindfulness of breathing). Jon 46279 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:26am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Tep and everyone, It turns out that my previous post, to Sarah, was actually the second last one for a while :-) I think your summary is very accurate, and lists all the salient variations. The Buddha was very wise to say the Dhamma has the same taste no matter what. We may all partake of the same teachings from our own positions, and yet the teachings can have the same flavour for all. This wouldn't be possible if instead of taste, sight was used as a unifying criterion. For no two beings can see exactly the same things, because no two beings can occupy the exact same space. This is a limitation of space, not the Dhamma. But I digress :-) The flavour of the Dhamma, from whatever position one occupies, is that all conditioned phenomena are anatta, anicca and dukkha. I do not think that positing the existence of beings runs counter to the flavour of the dhamma. Beings are only as real as memory. Memory is the supreme example of all that is anatta, anicca and dukkha. When there is memory, there is the grounding of experience into a stream, into a continuum. But when there is no memory, there is no possibility of a thought of continuity, no thought of being. I am wondering, do those who object to the positing of the existence of beings deny the reality of memory? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James, Howard, Evan, Herman - > > Thank you all for your unique and interesting thoughts on truths, > arahant's knowledge, reality, no-mind, emptiness and nothingness. It > seems to me that we are close in some issues, but I cannot draw a > single conclusion from our discussion (and I do not worry at all). > > Below is a list of the highlights of your thoughts -- try to make a > conclusion, if you can! > > Evan (# 46262): > > All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules > consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, > neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist > of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? > ... ... all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. > > Howard (# 46243): > > As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are > multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and > more or less complete. For all but arahants, however, conventional > truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it > is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations > available to us beings of limited wisdom.... An arahant knows but one > truth, THE truth, ... perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite > different from what any of us knows. > > James (#46244): > > I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match > mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us > worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. ... The only way > to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Herman (# 46251): > > I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards > Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either > conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. > -- An ultimate truth.. is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship > between different things. > -- The mind can relate things to an infinite level, by which process > any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can > be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing > at all. . (state of no-mind) ... truth just does not apply, there are no > relationships. > -- All truths are conventional by their very nature. ... What is real when I > am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't > apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), > > > (snipped) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > > > > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > > > > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > > > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all > matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, > cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can > anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at > the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules > and the matters don't exist? > > > > > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism > too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > > > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > > > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > > > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > > > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in > Skr: samvrti-satya). > > > > > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and > paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they > are confused. > > > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > > > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are > indecisive. > > > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > > > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > > > Dhamma. > > > > > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know > that he is confused. Please advise. > > > 46280 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Mike (and Connie) - Good to hear from you, Mike! :-) In a message dated 6/2/05 12:34:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@... writes: Hi Howard (and Connie), > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". > However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be > helpful. Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally. > IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't > support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. Well--for argument's sake--if by 'secondary teachings' you mean the AP, I'll grant that they do suggest to some a psuedo-Dhamma (though of course I think the 'some' are mistaken). ------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I had commentators, and most specifically Buddhaghosa, in mind. Though, IMO, the Abhidhamma Pitaka postdated the Buddha, I didn't have that in mind. (I do consider the Sutta Pitaka as most reliably Buddha word, and I think of it as constituting the gold backing for Buddhist currency.) ------------------------------------ > The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are > filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this > to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). ------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that it is there implicitly. ----------------------------------- As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere. ----------------------------------- Howard: I don't much care for the DSG-popular term "abhidhamma in the suttas". The suttas provide the Dhamma, some with more detail, some with less, some more literally, and some more figuratively, but all Dhamma. I see Abhidhamma as an attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching context and with primary attention to precision. ---------------------------------- When I say that beings are unreal in the discourses, I mean that they are pa.n.natti--depending on context meaning 'designation; name; concept; idea; a regulation' as I'm sure you know. This sense of 'unreality' seems a little different to me from the sense of 'illusory' from the Mahayana sutras. Just my reading, maybe. mike ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46281 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon and James (interested members are welcome) - > >... >Well, for this post I like to focus only on the following Q&A. >... > > >Tep: James has made a valid point here for the >kayanupassana "activities" using breaths, bodily postures, the 32 >body parts, the four basic elements in the body, etc.. In addition to >helping develop sati-sampajanna, these kayanupassana activities >also help the yogi to condition mindfulness on the phenomenon of >origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing >away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & >passing away with regard to the body. > I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. First, the modes of deportment: "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a specific practice for developing mindfulness. Now reflection on the dhatus: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and can take place at any time, I think. >We should notice that there are >no special "activities" for the contemplation of feeling >(vedananupassana), or the contemplation of nama like citta , sanna, >samyojana, etc. Do you know why? > > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. Jon 46282 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/2/05 5:53:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why > restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ===================== > The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute > *any* > other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as > 'while we > are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly > indulging'. ... S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for living the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment conditioned as it is in many complex ways? ------------------------------------ Howard: And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How *should* the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? ----------------------------------- So if, for example, right now any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? ------------------------------- Howard: All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't it? ------------------------------- The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and satipatthana has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently arisen ones. .... > Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation > in general, I > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. ... S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does volition play a role here? -------------------------------- This is the way that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. ----------------------------- Howard: What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be exercised? Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? ----------------------------- .... > When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > depends. ... S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to help or reflect in a useful way. --------------------------------- Howard: What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the Dhamma lists? -------------------------------- ... >At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, > is heartening, > and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us > away > from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, > excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from > ongoing > mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in > solitude > (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). .... S: Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude. Whenever we think there will be more or ongoing mindfulness or guarding of the senses at a later time or at a different place, it suggests there's no mindfulness at this very 'one moment and occasion' now. ---------------------------------- Howard: Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are making here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus there is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology is upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and "free will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings of the Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is just an attitude becomes a reality. It seems to me that we have to say to ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and conditions, but knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do have consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the Dhamma. Akusala kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can accomplish the opposite. ------------------------------------------- I don't know how far we can take this thread, Howard, but I'll be glad to hear any of your further comments. What really distinguishes 'meditation in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak to others as opposed to metta in solitude? ---------------------------------- Howard: The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red herring, though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, if anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of others, but of *interaction* with others. ------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46283 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist "practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/2/05 6:56:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, >tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant >feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not >pay particular attention? > > Very good question(s), Howard. Yes, I think they are fully hidden. Normally, we are 'aware' of people and things, not specifically sights or sounds. But even if we direct our attention to just one doorway, there is not the direct experience of visible object or sound or hardness, because the object of our attention will be vested with the same underlying misconceptions, beliefs, etc. as ever. Directed attention to a single doorway or its object is not the same as the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object. As I see it, it is not possible to attend to a particular dhamma by choice; it is only possible to attend to one's own (necessarily flawed) concept of that dhamma. >[Jon:] I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the >Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to >awareness of nama and rupa than others. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting >lost in thought? > > I think this is covered by my comments above. Whatever it is we might think we are paying attention to, it will not be a dhamma of any kind. Dhammas are apparent only to panna. Getting lost in thought is not kusala of course, but then again it is nothing more than thinking accompanied by attachment and/or ignorance, and no different really to other moments when we are lost in the visible object or sound or our conceptualising about what has been seen or heard. There is no reason why there cannot be awareness of that thinking with attachment and/or ignorance, if awareness should arise. It is 'normal' everyday life. It is the 'consciousness with lust' of the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta. Jon /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46284 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] onco111 Howdy, Howard, A moment with you agreeing with me is a wonderful thing! Dan P.S. Actually, we are in agreement on quite a lot of things -- both more and less than we realize. "More" because it is the points of dispute that tend to come up in discussion; "less" because some of the issues we disagree on cut deep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Dan - > > In a message dated 5/31/05 11:31:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@y... writes: > Dear Htoo, > Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the > statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The > determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or > kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing > itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal > sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, > nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the > determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are > referring to. > > You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. > When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, > but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in > formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well said, Dan! (That is ... I agree! ;-) > ---------------------------------- > > > Dan > > P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed. All the best, Htoo! > ====================== > With metta, > Howard > 46285 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Phil, is it the computer itself that is irritating your eyes? If there is any possibility it is so, keep in mind that new monitors are much cheaper than new glasses. Best wishes, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Howard, Larry, Dan... > > > Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the > > post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question > and > > the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion > > then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even > more, > > but that's not my intention. > > Ph: Not irritated now, but the irritation when it arises helps to > reflect on things. Very helpful. These days it's my eyes that are > irritated (still ahven't gotten around to getting glasses) so I'm > taking a break from the computer. I will be back on Saturday. > > Thanks for the feedback, all. > > Metta, > Phil > > > . 46286 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Hello, Sarah. I plan on listening to some of the recordings as soon as my iPod arrives in the mail (by early next week). I look forward to it. I believe I already listened to the India 2001 recordings on tape a few years ago, and didn't we already talk about some of the issues that were raised in the discussions? I believe there were some things you hadn't yet finished pounding on me about -- something I'm always open to................um, well, at least open to when there is enough time. Dare I say "retirement"? You'll be busier than ever and loving every minute of it (except those minutes when you are hatching your evil schemes to pound some poor, unsuspecting fool like me). Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan, > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > Interesting comments, Phil! > > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > > conceptualization. > ... > :-) Oh, that way you have with words....even though she says it so sweetly > and politely, not many people can take this lack of gratification > either.... "it's a long, long story...." , "...another situation?" > > Always good when you pop by, Dan.....hope you hang around long enough for > Nina to see you. I think you'll like all the edited recordings I just > referred to. More will be uploaded in due course, so keep an eye on the > site in case you miss my announcements here. On the Thai side, all the > recordings which leave the foundation have been edited and so I'm now > working on this big project on the English side with Jon's help and > K.Sujin's advice. It's slow. > > As you can imagine, I'm kept busy with all these projects and am > completely giving up my teaching/psychology business and consultancy work > this coming Saturday after 20 years of doing it here:-):-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46287 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:17am Subject: audio nilovg Hi Sarah and Jon, very good, I listened to the first audio. Good quality sound. It is a good idea for everybody to quote parts, it is always new, I find. I always discover new things. I had a little trouble finding the audio of DSG. org at first. I told Alan, he will like it. Many thanks and anumodana for all your good works, Nina. 46288 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 8:44am Subject: commitments matheesha333 Hello all, I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow this through. Untill such time.. metta Matheesha ------------------- "And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html 46289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! nilovg Hi vvk63, welcome;-)) But what is your name, and what are your interests? NIna. op 01-06-2005 13:41 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@...: > Hello! I am new to this group. 46290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] not doing anything? to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I was just discussing with Lodewijk during our trip (on an island) what you wrote below (perhaps foreseeing it!) and I was mentioning your name: 'Howard always says..' ;-)) ;-)) I was actually quoting Khun Sujin and was thinking that this was something for you. Here it goes: end quote. Thus, Howard, you see, these are strong words: to develop kusala hrough body, speech and mind. The perfections are included in these. We do not need to name them or think about them. But without them, impossible. I recently mentioned Lodewijk's and Phil"s favorite sutta: Nina. op 02-06-2005 15:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same > as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes > down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis > voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist > "practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I > consider it > harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being > so > wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) 46291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] commitments nilovg Hi Matheesha, Success with your exam. I hope you come back afterwards, I appreciated our exchanges, Nina. op 02-06-2005 17:44 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Hello all, > > I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have > other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid > conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I > have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It > has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow > this through. Untill such time.. > > metta > > Matheesha > > ------------------- > > "And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a > certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought > in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, > don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in > that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html > 46292 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). James: Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word `conducive'. From dictionary.com: "conducive adj : tending to bring about; being partly responsible for". Therefore, `necessary' and `conducive' are two entirely different meanings. There is no reasonable explanation as to why you can't see the difference between the two meanings. Consider the matter more deeply and get back to me if you wish. Jon: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling,consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand aspirations! ;-) Jon: As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case of mindfulness of breathing). James: Hmmm…you're going to hang quite a lot on that `one way' translation/interpretation of the introduction, even though there are many disagreements, aren't you? Well, I'm not going to touch that. Think what you wish. Metta, James 46293 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] not doing anything? to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/2/05 2:31:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I was just discussing with Lodewijk during our trip (on an island) what you wrote below (perhaps foreseeing it!) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, oh! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- and I was mentioning your name: 'Howard always says..' ;-)) ;-)) I was actually quoting Khun Sujin and was thinking that this was something for you. Here it goes: end quote. Thus, Howard, you see, these are strong words: to develop kusala through body, speech and mind. The perfections are included in these. We do not need to name them or think about them. But without them, impossible. I recently mentioned Lodewijk's and Phil"s favorite sutta: Nina. ========================== Yes, thank you, Nina (and Lodewijk)! BTW, this sutta is a favorite of mine as well. ;-) Indeed - it *can* be done, and I am grateful to the Buddha for showing the way! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] commitments jonoabb Hi Mateesha I join Nina in wishing you success with your exam, and look forward to seeing you back again soon. I have enjoyed your posts Jon PS Not sure if you ever saw this reply of mine, which went in somewhat late: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45884 If not, never mind now, it will keep for later ;-)) matheesha wrote: >Hello all, > >I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have >other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid >conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I >have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It >has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow >this through. Untill such time.. > >metta > >Matheesha > >------------------- > >"And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a >certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought >in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, >don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in >that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html > > 46295 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Hi! onco111 Greetings, vvk63 and welcome. Don't feel shy about chiming in if some topic catches your eye or if you have other questions or comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vvk63" wrote: > Hello! I am new to this group. 46296 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:36pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - The presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing' (Group III) continues today. Again, please be reminded that words within square brackets [ ] most of the times are Commentary. 24. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the second jhana? Of the second jhana purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. 25. - 28. Of the second jhana purification of the way is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three .... [repeat paragraphs 20. to 23, substituting 'second jhana' for 'first jhana'] 29. - 33. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the third jhana? ... [repeat paragraphs 19. to 23.] 34. - 38. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the fourth jhana? ... [repeat paragraphs 20. to 23.] 39. - 58. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the four immaterial attainments] .... 59. - 148. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the 18 Principal Insights] .... 149. - 168. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the four paths] ... . *** [Simile of the Saw] 169. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas Does not obtain development. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing well these three ideas Can then obtain development. 170. How is it that these three ideas are not the supporting object (aarammana) of a single cognizance(citta), that they are nevertheless not unrecognized, that cognizance does not become distracted, that he manifests endeavour(padhaana), carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa)? Suppose there were a tree trunk placed on a level piece of ground, and a man cut it with a saw. The man's mindfulness is established by the saw teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw's teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so; and he manifests endeavour (padhaana), carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa). As the tree trunk placed on the level piece of ground, so the sign for the anchoring(upanibandhana) of mindfulness. [The 'sign for the anchoring of mindfulness' is the nose tip or upper lip 'which is the cause and the sign for the anchoring of mindfulness'. PSA 328 S] As the saw's teeth, so the in-breaths and out-breaths. As the man's mindfulness, established by the saw's teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw's teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so, and so he manifests endeavour, carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa); so too the bhikkhu sits, having established mindfulness at the nose tip or on the upper lip, without giving attention to the in-breaths and out-breaths as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task and achieves a distinctive effect. What is the endeavour(padhaana)? The body(kaaya) and the cognizance(citta) of one who is energetic becomes wieldy (kammaniya): this is the endeavour. What is the task(payoga)? Imperfections come to be abandoned in one who is energetic, and his applied thoughts(vitakka) are stilled: this is the task. What is the effect? Fetters(samyojana) come to be abandoned in one who is energetic, and his underlying tendencies(anusaya) come to be done away with: this is the distinctive effect(visesa). So these three things are not the support object(aarammana) of a single cognizance(citta) and they are nevertheless not unrecognized, and cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect. *** 171. Whose mindfulness of breathing in And out is perfect, well developed, And gradually brought to growth According to the Buddha taught, 'Tis he illuminates the world Just like the full moon free from cloud. [Whole verse at Thag 549; last two lines at Dh 382. 182 takes candimaa (full moon) in the sense of candi-mani (moon possessor) like satimaa.] 172. 'Breathing in' (aana) is in-breath (assaasa); 'breathing out' (apaana) is out-breath (passaasa). [Read 'aanan ti assaaso no passaaso, apaanan ti passaaso no assaaso'. 'Assaasavasena' and so on without new para after 'assaaso'.] Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him. 173. 'Perfect' : perfect in the sense of embracing(pariggaha) [jhana, insight and path]; perfect in the sense of [the mutual] equipment (parivaara)[of all ideas connected therewith]; perfect in the sense of perfection. 174. 'Well developed' : There are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (i) development in the sense of non-excess(anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) arisen therein (I 135), (ii) development in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties (Indriya) (I 134), (iii) development in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy(viriya), (iv) development in the sense of repetition(aasevana). These four kinds of development(bhaavanaa) in him are made the vehicle(yaanikata), made the ground(vatthu), consolidated, reinforced and brought to very sameness(susama). 'Made the vehicle': he has mastery, power and assurance wherever he wishes, those ideas [of serenity and insight] are ready for his adverting, ready to his wish, ready to his attention, ready to his arising of cognizance. Hence 'made the vehicle' was said. Tep's Note: We shall complete this long Section iii in the next post -- to be presented next Friday (6/10). I also plan to write a discussion of Section iii following the next Friday posting. I hope that the material so far is interesting enough to capture your attention. There are several terms (and their Pali) that have to be studied carefully, especially those related to establishing of mindfulness and development of cognizance by means of breathing meditation. What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ? Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > The knowledge of cleansing (cognizance from imperfections or > uppakilesas) actually starts with the last six imperfections in Section ii, > namely: > > 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past breaths is attacked by > distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. > (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future breaths is an > obstruction to concentration. > (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an > obstruction to concentration. > (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and > is an obstruction to concentration. > (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to > concentration. > (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to > concentration. [end of excerpt] > > So these six imperfections of cognizance prevent it from becoming > united, because they make cognizance(citta) "disquieted, > perturbed and excited". They can be eliminated by means of the > thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing as follows. > 46297 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ?" Hi Tep, The three ideas are sign, in-breath, and out-breath. The object of jhana is sign. In this case the sign is the place where the in-breath and out-breath brush back and forth. That is where attention should be placed, rather than on in-breath or out-breath. There is awareness of these two but that awareness is in the background and shouldn't be cultivated. What is not mentioned is that there is a mix of sensation (rupa) and concepts of in-breath, out-breath, and place where they brush back and forth. It occurred to me that there are three rupas that are the signs of these three concepts. In other words, a certain rupa is interpreted as in-breath, another rupa is interpreted as out-breath, and a third rupa is interpreted as the place where they brush back and forth. This gives us three signs but I think we can still say the object of jhana is the sign where they brush back and forth because it is easiest to rest attention there, while 'in' or 'out' movements may be conducive to wandering mind. There seems to be a subtle vacillation between sign (rupa) and the idea it represents. Possibly this stabilizes as one becomes more skillful. Also, this suggests there is a closer relationship between concept and reality than I had thought. I had previously thought a sign is a concept, but it looks like a sign is a reality interpreted as a concept. What do you think? Larry 46298 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 10:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 211 - Zeal/chanda (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] The “universals” and the “particulars” arise with cittas of the four jåtis and these thirteen cetasikas are classified as one group: the aññasamånå cetasikas”(1). The aññasamånå cetasikas are different from the akusala cetasikas which only arise with akusala cittas and different from sobhana cetasikas which only arise with sobhana cittas. However, this does not mean that the “universals” and the “particulars” cannot be akusala or sobhana. When the aññasamånå cetasikas arise with akusala citta they all are akusala; they assist the akusala citta to carry out its function in an unwholesome way. When they accompany kusala citta they all are kusala; they assist the kusala citta in carrying out its function in a wholesome way. Cetasikas are conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany and they are of an entirely different quality as they accompany akusala citta, kusala citta, vipåkacitta or kiriyacitta. *** 1) Añña means “other” and samånå means “common”, the same. The aññasamånås which arise together are of the same jåti as the citta they accompany and they all change, become “other”, as they accompany a citta of a different jåti. Akusala is “other” than kusala and kusala is “other” than akusala. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46299 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike, Howard, Connie, Joop, Herman, Tep & all, > > I'd like to join in this useful thread too. > > Howard:> > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to beings". ..... > "Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus `Worldly life > is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view', there descends the Great > Compassion for beings." (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great > Compassion). > > I'll look forward to any further comments or reflections on elements. > > Metta, > > Sarah Hallo Sarah, Connie, Egbert and all There are two parallel threads about more or less the same topic, but that's no problem. In my message yesterday (sorry Egbert I made a mess of your name in it) I concluded: "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" From that conclusion I have two questions about your quotes: - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that direction? - If a person (not 'me' but also another one) had to be seen as a mere convention or concept; the question is: can a concept suffer, have dukkha ? (I think the answer is no, only a being can, and the 'I' can. Perhaps it's very akusala but I cannot have compassion with a concept) Metta Joop 46300 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (James, see*) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for > living > the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment > conditioned as it is in many complex ways? > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How > *should* > the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? > ----------------------------------- ..... S: By the development of panna. Volition (cetana) is there anyway at each moment. It’s not a Path factor. ..... >S: So if, for example, right now > any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any > other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? > ------------------------------- > Howard: > All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't > it? > ------------------------------- S: ;-) It is, but still the Self or self or simple lobha tries very hard to change the present dhamma ..... >S: The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and > satipatthana > has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding > or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently > arisen ones. > .... > >H: Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana > (cultivation > > in general, I > > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. > ... > S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala > and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about > really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does > volition > play a role here? > -------------------------------- S: Just as effort or volition cannot make seeing or visible object or hearing or sound arise or not arise at this moment, so they cannot make calm or insight arise now either. Whether or not calm or insight or seeing or hearing arises now, there is volition arising already with it, performing its function accordingly. .... >S: This is the way > that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be > exercised? > Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? > ----------------------------- S: It’s very easy to tell people to follow particular activities, but in this way they will never see the extremely subtle truths which the Buddha taught for the sake of the very few who might be able to appreciate the Middle Path. I believe this Middle Path is the development of Right Understanding and the other path factors through the development of satipatthana – the direct awareness and understanding of conditioned namas and rupas appearing right now. This has to be with detachment from what has arisen, regardless of whether the present dhamma is a sense door citta or object, a kusala dhamma or an akusala dhamma, for example. I know that it sounds like one of Herman’s puzzles and that the solution seems impossible, but it’s not. Like the AN sutta says, if it were impossible, if there were no solution, if there were no way out, the Buddha wouldn’t have taught the Noble Truths. I think the biggest hurdle is understanding (at least theoretically) what paramattha dhammas are and what the distinction between namas and rupas are. When I read your messages to others on these topics and in your own words these days, I think you appreciate this essence of the Tipitaka pretty well. (this isn’t meant to sound condescending or like I have all the answers, but I don’t know how else to express my respect for the way you’ve checked and considered the texts so carefully). ... > >H: When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > > depends. > ... > S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which > predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist > (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to > help or reflect in a useful way. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be > cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the > Dhamma lists? > -------------------------------- S: Whatever intentions or cittas arise, they’re conditioned already. Whether we plan to post or be quiet, kusala cannot be controlled, however much the ‘itch’ (thanks, Dan) would like it otherwise. What we’re discussing, as I see it, are the Buddha’s teachings, in order to really understand these dhammas arising for what they are – anatta. In this sense, I don’t really see that it matters at all what the present dhamma is or what the present intention is – the minding and mattering are just aspects of attachment, clinging to self again, as I see it. [apologies for conditioning any irritation here, Howard. Not my intention:-)) see*] ...... > Howard: > Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as > only > ever possible in this 'one > moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're > > sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are > making > here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus > there > is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a > > doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology > is > upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. ... S: No, it’s not upsetting at all. I quite understand why this seems to be the implication, even if I think it’s wrong . This really is the most subtle apect of the teachings, imho. Yes, the dhammas at this moment are conditioned already. No, the teaching is not deterministic, hopeless or helpless in anyway. Why not? Because there is a path. Right understanding can be developed right now, conditioned by this very reading, considering and reflecting on these points. Now, there is seeing, visible object, hearing and other dhammas arising and falling. Awareness can be aware immediately, especially now you appreciate what visible object is, what hardness is, what sound is, what seeing is and so on. At moments of awareness and understanding, there is no doubt, no confusion, no thought or feeling of hoplelessness or helplessness at all. Right? To be honest, I think these points you’re raising are very good ones.....just ‘hang in’ there...:-) .... >H: I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and > "free > will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings > of the > Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is > just > an attitude becomes a reality. ... S: I think this is just thinking with doubt. Again, these dhammas can be known right now when they arise (along with any irritation too:-)). .... >It seems to me that we have to say to > ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and > conditions, but > knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do > have > consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the > Dhamma. Akusala > kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can > accomplish the > opposite. .... S: Right. No disagreement here. Usually, however, we take the good and bad actions and volitions for ‘mine’ and ‘others’’, not appreciating that they too are conditioned. .... >S:What really distinguishes 'meditation > in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak > to others as opposed to metta in solitude? > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, > calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red > herring, > though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, > if > anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of > others, > but of *interaction* with others. .... S: I’ve often quoted the Migajala sutta here (SN35:63) and other similar suttas on ‘living alone’ . Could they be said to be referring to meditation as you see it? Can ‘meditation in solitude’ refer to the learning to live alone with the six world appearing now, regardless of circumstances? “Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus [not in bondage to the 6 worlds through attachment] lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.” S: I see the message as being the one of understanding the cause of bondage and developing the understanding of the worlds on account of which craving arises. I don’t see the message as being to take any particular actions of any kind for this purpose. How about you? Metta, Sarah *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# Q’aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone’s right – the list is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, you’ll understand why we’re so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). ==================== 46301 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hello, Sarah. > I plan on listening to some of the recordings as soon as my iPod > arrives in the mail (by early next week). I look forward to it. ... S: It's a great way to go. Not only does one look as trendy as one's students, but one can catch a few good reminders anytime. This week to celebrate the upcoming 'retirement' -- we'll see if the term fits down the line--, I actually got to the dentist and the hairdressers in preparation for a party with some students tomorrow. These are things that have been put off for months and months when I've been busy. Listening to dhamma on my pink i-pod, dressed in winter gear for the typical arctic-like air-conditioning here in the summer, the dental cleaning and hair-snipping which usually seem like painfully slow ordeals were far too quick this time round:-). ... >I > believe I already listened to the India 2001 recordings on tape a few > years ago, and didn't we already talk about some of the issues that > were raised in the discussions? I believe there were some things you > hadn't yet finished pounding on me about -- something I'm always open > to................um, well, at least open to when there is enough > time. ... S: there, Howard. Someone who likes poundings!! Dan, quite possible. But now, the recordings are 'super-edited' (snipped all long pauses, long stories, coughs, outrageous laughter, Thai....). Anyway, listen again when you get your i-pod (-- great on walks too. Jon's been listening to the Thai talks this way for years) and let me know what you find. I think the pounding is usually pretty mutual. I quiver in anticipation....:-). ... > Dare I say "retirement"? You'll be busier than ever and loving every > minute of it (except those minutes when you are hatching your evil > schemes to pound some poor, unsuspecting fool like me). ... S: :-). Thanks, Dan ....(also to Herman for your good wishes). Jon's also leaving HK Government after 20 years with it (60 is official retirement age for civil servants here), but he intends to keep working for a while if he can. We'd love to meet some of you guys in the States if we find we have more time and enough $, but that's down the road a while. Maybe New York sometime with Nina too.... Metta, Sarah ========= 46302 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi all, > > Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? ... S: Who were 'you two'? I think it's a typo for nibbana. Nibbana is the only 'unconditioned' dhamma or reality. There are also 'conditioned' realities. ... > > The five aggregates of a human is real? ... S: yes, the five aggregates are real. The human is a concept. .... > What is real is unimportant? .... S: What do you mean? .... > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Metta, Sarah =========== 46303 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Htoo and thank--- sarahprocter... Hi Lisa,(*MattR, Sukin, Manu) I'm just about out of time, but as I'm going to be busy at the weekend, I just wanted to touch base with you. You wrote a great post on vedana -- clearly you've been doing a lot of good homework and are getting the feelings on track!. I like the style:). --- Lisa wrote: > Here are some is some of my study on Vendana: > > 1. In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavini, on commentator said, 'vedayati, > arammananubhavanarasam anubhavati'ti vedana'. It is the feeling of an > object that is called vedana. ... S: yep .... > The feeling that is able to determine whether an object is good or > bad, pleasant or unpleasant; neither good nor bad, neither pleasant > nor unpleasant is called vedana. .... S: Just to put it another way, the vedana just feels in a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral way. It just 'tastes' the object, rather than determining anything about it. I say this because it's not just the object which determines the feeling. .... > From the arammananubhavana, there are three kinds of vedana, > sukhavedana (pleasant feeling), dukkhavedana (unpleasant feeling), > adukkhamasukhavedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling). This > is spoken of in the Dhammasangani of Abhidhammapitaka from the > Buddha's mouth. > > 1. cakkhusamphassaja vedana arises (or could I use triggered, > manifests or comes up?) when the eye comes in contact with a visual > object) > > 2. sotasamphassaja vedana (arises when the ear comes in contact with > a sound) > > 3. ghanasamphassaja vedana (arises when the nose comes in contact with > a smell) > > 4. jivhasamphassaja vedana (arises when the tongue comes in contact > with a taste) > > 5. kayasamphassaja vedana (arises when the physical body comes in > contact with a tangible object) > > 6. manosamphassaja vedana (arises when the mind comes in contact with > a mental object) > > These six kinds of vedana are referred to in the Majjhima Nikaya text > and also the Chachakkasutta and I guess many others as well. ... S: Yep, so far,so very good. .... > These vedana of three, five, six and so on, are nothing but cetaskika > (mental concomitants) with each and every citta(mind or consciousness) > that arise from moment to moment. Like vedana, there are six other > cetasikas that arise, that follow along with the mind or > consciousness. Each of these seven cetasikas are also known as > sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, are involved with all kinds of mind or > consciousness. > > There are seven sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, vedana is the second > cetasika. Also there are five khandhas-rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, > sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha. Vedana is the > second Khanda of the above mentioned five. ... S: Yes. Also read the chapter on 'vedana' in Nina's 'Cetasikas'. I think I gave the extracts just before you joined DSG. .... > > Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavana (Insight > meditation). ... S: ??? .... > In the Pathamaja Sutta, Mahasalhayatanika Sutta, Samadhi Sutta, and > from references I found many other suttas that also mention this, > there are five objects of vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). ... S: ??? I'm lost. Please clarify or quote. .... > > There are five pasadarupa (sensitive corporeality) such as > cakkhupasada and so on, one of these five being the first object of > Vipassana meditation. > > Also included there are five objects such as visible objects and one > of one of the five being the second object. ... S: I think you're losing the plot again here and confusing namas and rupas and different rupas. Also, I don't understand there to be any order as such of vipassana, though I agree that visible objects are usually referred to first out of the sense objects. Remember, vedana is not a sense object. Also, eye-base and visible object are not the same of course. ..... > > There are five consciousnesses such as cakkhuvinnana(eye > consciousness) and one of these five consciousnesses being the third > object. > > Phassa (contact) cetasika is the fourth object. > > Vedana cetasika is the fifth object. ... S: Ok, now I'm with you, though I wouldn't put it as any order of vipassana bhavana. Just the order that dhammas are sometimes mentioned in the suttas. .... > Vedana is the fifth object of the five. Vedana plays a large part in > tanha (Dependent Origination?). When tanha is triggered it is because > of sensation or vedana, which brings with it upadana, bhava and jati > close behind it, I read they usually follow and there is no controling > this force once tanha has been triggered or manifested or arisen > (which is a better word to use?) ... S: Remember that vedana (and phassa too) arise with every single citta. Yes, tanha is very, very influenced by the feelings as you say. (I think any of the words are ok - triggered as in conditioned etc). .... > So if tanha, which belongs to samudayasacca (2nd Noble Truth), is not > cut, like cutting away the root of a weed, all that follows will > become dukkhasacca (1st Noble Truth) that is everything that is born > and passes away and will suffer from grief, sorrow, pain and despair > from this cycle of birth and decay. .... S: Right. Dukkhasacca refers to the impermanent nature of all conditioned dhammas regardless....so tanha has to be seen for what it is and as arising on account of these khandhas. ... > > Question: Is Vedana the cause of tanha or is it the cause of panna? ... S: I would say neither, though vedana can be the object of either tanha or panna and thus be object condition, also decisive support and other conditions too, I'm sure. The real cause of tanha is the long, long accumulated tanha and avijja (ignorance). The cause of panna is the accumulated panna, the wise considering, reflecting and listening to the truths. Again, remember that vedana arises with every citta and it depends on so many conditions whether there is wise or unwise attention to those feelings. .... > Samahito sampajano, sato Buddhassa savako Vedana ca pajanati, > vedananam ca sambhavam. Yattha ceta nirujjhanti, Maggam ca > khayagaminam Vedananam khaya, bhikkhu nicchato parinibbuto ti. > > Samyutta-nikaya IV > > A follower of the Buddha, with concentration, awareness and constant > thorough understanding of impermanence, knows with wisdom the > sensations, their arising, their cessation and the path leading to > their end. A meditator who has reached the end of all sensations > (stage of Nibbana) is freed from craving, fully liberated. ... S: I'd like to see the full reference. All dhammas need to be known, not just feelings. (better to forget 'sensations' as it's so misleading imho). Sometimes the Buddha gives the example of feelings, sometimes of the 4 elements, sometimes the sense objects. No rule of what should be known -- just depends what appears without any selection. Lisa, you'll relate to this -- I have to run out the door, pick up the keys from the bowl(!!), no time for checks and balances -apologies for any abruptness or denseness on my part. Have a good weekend and look forward to more of your research. *Thx again for the great pics in the album and also to Ivan aka Matt R or Sukin for putting in a new pic in the 'DSG group meetings' with Ven Yanatharo, Manu (from Laos), MattR himself and possibly an 'enlightened' shot of the back of Jon's head!! Metta, Sarah ====== 46304 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, (James, see*) > Metta, > > Sarah > *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# > Q'aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone's right – the list > is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, > you'll understand why we're so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). > ==================== ;-)) I knew it...I knew it...I knew it!! I'll keep this information in mind for now on when I read your posts- to know that the 'coldness' isn't intentional ;-) For those who wonder what this is all about, take this 'Defective Personality Test' (Non-Buddhist but rather fun): http://tinyurl.com/dfnk9 (But be warned: It doesn't spare your feelings) Metta, James ps. I am a 'Starving Artist' 46305 From: "mnease" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context mlnease Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context > Howard: > I don't much care for the DSG-popular term "abhidhamma in the suttas". > The suttas provide the Dhamma, some with more detail, some with less, some more > literally, and some more figuratively, but all Dhamma. I see Abhidhamma as an > attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching context > and with primary attention to precision. Right--guess we're both aware of our differences of opinion regarding abhidhamma. Really not sure why I bothered! Cheers, mike 46306 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:52am Subject: Re: What is real ... nichiconn Hi Charles, Sarah, > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Connie: No. 1 citta 52 cetasika 1 nibbaana so, 54 naama and 28 ruupa (4 primary + 24 derived**) gives 82 paramattha dhammas. Vism XIV - Description of the Aggregates (Materiality): 33: When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc. are the ', the here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. [...] **36. (b) is of 24 kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible-datum, sound, odour, flavour; {13} femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation, verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. [...] 40: 4. The tongue's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of flavours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to taste. Its function is to pick up [an object] among flavours. It is manifested as the footing of tongue-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to taste. >> peace, connie 46307 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? foamflowers I'm sneaking in to post from work....shhhh don't tell my boss, I can't help posting this stuff it is way to fun to pass up, plus I haven't stopped by to say hi to all of my Dhamma friends (My mate and I are moving to a new apartment-lots of stuff happening right now). Here is my test! And I am not suprised at all but my score...lol... [[[Emo Kid]]] You are 42% Rational, 42% Extroverted, 28% Brutal, and 14% Arrogant. The brutal and arrogant part is just hidding it's huge and just waiting to erupt! To put it less negatively: 1. You are more INTUITIVE than rational. 2. You are more INTROVERTED than extroverted. 3. You are more GENTLE than brutal. 4. You are more HUMBLE than arrogant. Compatibility: Your exact opposite is the Smartass. Other personalities you would probably get along with are the Hippie, the Televangelist, and the Starving Artist. [[[[waves at James--> I am actually an artist...hahaha]]] With Metta and giggles, Lisa > ;-)) I knew it...I knew it...I knew it!! I'll keep this information > in mind for now on when I read your posts- to know that the 'coldness' > isn't intentional ;-) For those who wonder what this is all about, > take this 'Defective Personality Test' (Non-Buddhist but rather fun): > http://tinyurl.com/dfnk9 > (But be warned: It doesn't spare your feelings) > > Metta, > James > ps. I am a 'Starving Artist' 46308 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Htoo and thank--- foamflowers > ... > S: Yes. Also read the chapter on 'vedana' in Nina's 'Cetasikas'. I >think I gave the extracts just before you joined DSG. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah]I will check it out this weekend, I like to kick back and read Dhamma on the weekend...helps me stay balanced. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavan(Insight >meditation). >S: ??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah]made a note of this Sarah and I will pull up my references and post on Sunday and also try and clarify some of the other passages you found fuzzy and or confusing for my own Good (very selfish motivation here!). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > S: I'd like to see the full reference. All dhammas need to be >known, not just feelings..... > Lisa, you'll relate to this -- I have to run out the door, pick up >the keys from the bowl(!!), no time for checks and balances - >apologies for any abruptness or denseness on my part. Have a good >weekend and look forward to more of your research. > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== [lisa] Totally understand I am on the run right now as well, life is going full tilt and I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth;) Love you, with Metta ((((((big metta hugs to the group I am such an Emo Kid))))))), Lisa 46309 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/3/05 5:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, (James, see*) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for > living > the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment > conditioned as it is in many complex ways? > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How > *should* > the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? > ----------------------------------- ..... S: By the development of panna. Volition (cetana) is there anyway at each moment. It’s not a Path factor. --------------------------------------- Howard: And what volitional actions should one take to cultivate pa~n~na? None? --------------------------------------- ..... >S: So if, for example, right now > any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any > other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? > ------------------------------- > Howard: > All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't > it? > ------------------------------- S: ;-) It is, but still the Self or self or simple lobha tries very hard to change the present dhamma -------------------------------------- Howard: Forget about self & lobha. Is there no such thing as right effort? Cultivation is possible. ------------------------------------- ..... >S: The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and > satipatthana > has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding > or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently > arisen ones. > .... > >H: Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana > (cultivation > > in general, I > > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. > ... > S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala > and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about > really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does > volition > play a role here? > -------------------------------- S: Just as effort or volition cannot make seeing or visible object or hearing or sound arise or not arise at this moment, so they cannot make calm or insight arise now either. Whether or not calm or insight or seeing or hearing arises now, there is volition arising already with it, performing its function accordingly. ---------------------------------- Howard: Forget about calm and insight arising *right now*. What about cultivation for the future. Yes, pa~n~na etc arise when the conditions are in place. Those conditions require cultivation, which requires volitional action. --------------------------------- .... >S: This is the way > that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be > exercised? > Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? > ----------------------------- S: It’s very easy to tell people to follow particular activities, but in this way they will never see the extremely subtle truths which the Buddha taught for the sake of the very few who might be able to appreciate the Middle Path. I believe this Middle Path is the development of Right Understanding ------------------------------- Howard: HOW? By wishing it into being? No, by application of right action. ------------------------------- and the other path factors through the development of satipatthana ------------------------------- Howard: How shall insight be developed? By good luck!? Specific results require specific conditions. ------------------------------- – the direct awareness and understanding of conditioned namas and rupas appearing right now. --------------------------------- Howard: What is required to cultivate that direct awareness and undserstanding. No volition? No specific actions? Good luck? -------------------------------- This has to be with detachment from what has arisen, regardless of whether the present dhamma is a sense door citta or object, a kusala dhamma or an akusala dhamma, for example. -------------------------------- Howard: WHAT has to be with detachment? And how is detachment to be brought about? By nothing that is volitional? -------------------------------- I know that it sounds like one of Herman’s puzzles and that the solution seems impossible, but it’s not. ------------------------------------ Howard: I hear no solution being proposed here. ----------------------------------- Like the AN sutta says, if it were impossible, if there were no solution, if there were no way out, the Buddha wouldn’t have taught the Noble Truths. --------------------------------- Howard: Indeed, it is possible! And what is required? The intentional cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. -------------------------------- I think the biggest hurdle is understanding (at least theoretically) what paramattha dhammas are and what the distinction between namas and rupas are. ---------------------------------- Howard: I think the biggest hurdle is thinking that there is nothing to do. --------------------------------- When I read your messages to others on these topics and in your own words these days, I think you appreciate this essence of the Tipitaka pretty well. ---------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps I understand to an extent. But we are so far apart on this matter of practice that I cannot understand why you would think I appreciate the essence of the Tipitaka. --------------------------------- (this isn’t meant to sound condescending or like I have all the answers, but I don’t know how else to express my respect for the way you’ve checked and considered the texts so carefully). ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, thanks. :-) -------------------------------- ... > >H: When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > > depends. > ... > S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which > predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist > (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to > help or reflect in a useful way. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be > cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the > Dhamma lists? > -------------------------------- S: Whatever intentions or cittas arise, they’re conditioned already. Whether we plan to post or be quiet, kusala cannot be controlled, however much the ‘itch’ (thanks, Dan) would like it otherwise. What we’re discussing, as I see it, are the Buddha’s teachings, in order to really understand these dhammas arising for what they are – anatta. In this sense, I don’t really see that it matters at all what the present dhamma is or what the present intention is – the minding and mattering are just aspects of attachment, clinging to self again, as I see it. [apologies for conditioning any irritation here, Howard. Not my intention:-)) see*] ...... > Howard: > Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as > only > ever possible in this 'one > moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're > > sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are > making > here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus > there > is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a > > doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology > is > upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. ... S: No, it’s not upsetting at all. I quite understand why this seems to be the implication, even if I think it’s wrong . This really is the most subtle apect of the teachings, imho. Yes, the dhammas at this moment are conditioned already. No, the teaching is not deterministic, hopeless or helpless in anyway. Why not? Because there is a path. -------------------------------- Howard: Unless it is followed, there might as well not be one! ------------------------------- Right understanding can be developed right now, conditioned by this very reading, considering and reflecting on these points. ------------------------------- Howard: Could happen. Might not. Is there volition required to study and contemplate? BTW, is Right Conversation a ninth link? Is it a good substitute for samma samadhi? ------------------------------- Now, there is seeing, visible object, hearing and other dhammas arising and falling. ------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. Dhammas are observed all the time, despite the fact that Jon says we don't observe dhammas but only concepts. (The realities that are observed are dhammas! When we are conventionally willing, there is more actual cetana present in our mindstates. When we are conventionally in a rage, our mindstates are filled with dosa. To find the dhammas, we need only look to the pa~n~natti.) Everybody, all sentient beings, animals included, observe dhammas all the time. Are they all engaged in Dhamma practice? Well, of course not. It requires strong and very specific intention to be engaging in Dhamma practice. ----------------------------------- Awareness can be aware immediately, especially now you appreciate what visible object is, what hardness is, what sound is, what seeing is and so on. At moments of awareness and understanding, there is no doubt, no confusion, no thought or feeling of hoplelessness or helplessness at all. Right? ------------------------------------ Howard: One has to LOOK, to look beyond superficial appearances. The intention to do so, and the repeated practice of looking is required. ---------------------------------- To be honest, I think these points you’re raising are very good ones.....just ‘hang in’ there...:-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Sure will! ;-) ---------------------------------- .... >H: I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and > "free > will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings > of the > Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is > just > an attitude becomes a reality. ... S: I think this is just thinking with doubt. Again, these dhammas can be known right now when they arise (along with any irritation too:-)). ------------------------------ Howard: They can be IF IT IS DONE! That reuires intention and effort, *conventional* intention and effort, because underlying these are the realities that get the job done. ----------------------------- .... >It seems to me that we have to say to > ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and > conditions, but > knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do > have > consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the > Dhamma. Akusala > kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can > accomplish the > opposite. .... S: Right. No disagreement here. Usually, however, we take the good and bad actions and volitions for ‘mine’ and ‘others’’, not appreciating that they too are conditioned. ----------------------------------- Howard: So what? We start where we are, influenced by sense of self and even, in some cases, by belief in self. If we cannot begin where we are, then liberation is impossible, and we should just all go out for a nice stiff drink! ------------------------------------ .... >S:What really distinguishes 'meditation > in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak > to others as opposed to metta in solitude? > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, > calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red > herring, > though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, > if > anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of > others, > but of *interaction* with others. .... S: I’ve often quoted the Migajala sutta here (SN35:63) and other similar suttas on ‘living alone’ . Could they be said to be referring to meditation as you see it? Can ‘meditation in solitude’ refer to the learning to live alone with the six world appearing now, regardless of circumstances? “Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus [not in bondage to the 6 worlds through attachment] lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.â€? ----------------------------------- Howard: That's one usage. The Buddha used terms in varying ways to suit the context and to make particular points. ----------------------------------- S: I see the message as being the one of understanding the cause of bondage and developing the understanding of the worlds on account of which craving arises. I don’t see the message as being to take any particular actions of any kind for this purpose. How about you? ----------------------------------- Howard: I *do*. I see the Buddha as having taught the taking of very specific actions for very definite purposes. --------------------------------- Metta, Sarah *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# Q’aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone’s right – the list is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, you’ll understand why we’re so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). ---------------------------------- Howard: Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46310 From: nina Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 11:20am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 163. Ignorance. Intro: Moha, ignorance or delusion, is an akusala cetasika which is root, hetu. As we have seen, there are three sobhana hetus which are alobha, non-attachment, adosa, non-aversion, and amoha or paññaa. The sobhana hetus are the foundation or support of sobhana (beautiful) citta, they are like the roots of a tree which are its foundation and its means of obtaining nourishing sap. There are three akusala hetus which are lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha. They are the foundation or support of akusala citta. Eight akusala cittas are rooted in lobha and moha, two akusala cittas are rooted in dosa and moha and two akusala cittas have moha as their only root. Moha accompanies each akusala citta. ***** Text Vis. 163: 'Delusion' has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. ------------ N: The Tiika explains that blindness of citta is not seeing the nature of dhammas (dhammasabhaava) as they truly are. Unknowing (aññaa.na.m) is the opposite of understanding. Understanding illuminates the object that is experienced, whereas moha darkens it. The Pali term andha used here means blind or dark. -------------- Text Vis.: Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. ------------- N: Moha is unable to penetrate the four noble Truths. Its function is to conceal the true nature of the object that is experienced. We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): ------------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as the absence of right theory (sammaapa.tipatti, see Ch. XVII,52), ---------------- N: Absence of right theory is the translation of asammaa-pa.tipatti. Pa.tipatti literally means practice. The translator refers to Ch. XVII, 52 which deals with Œno theory¹, as not knowing about dukkha, etc. In this context we should not think of pa.tipatti as mere book knowledge or theory. It refers to right understanding of the true nature of the dhamma that appears. When there is moha there is absence of right understanding of the dhamma that appears. ------------- Text Vis.: or it is manifested as darkness. ----------- N: The Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. Moha darkens the true nature of visible object, sound, of all realities that arise at this moment. ---------------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. --------------- N: Unwise attention, ayoniso manaasikaara, is the proximate cause of all akusala that arises. ------------------ Text Vis.: It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable. ---------------- N: Moha is the root of all akusala. When we do not apply ourselves to daana, siila, samatha or vipassanaa, we act, speak or think with akusala citta and this is always accompanied by moha. Whenever we are attached to visible object, sound or another sense object, there is also moha which causes blindness. It conceals the true nature of the object that is experienced. Moha arises countless times in a day, but we do not realize this. Ignorance is a latent tendency which conditions the arising of akusala citta time and again. Moha does not know what kusala and akusala are, it is ignorant of the conditions for their arising. It is ignorant of kamma and vipaaka. It does not realize the impurity and the danger of akusala which can bring an unpleasant result. Moha does not know naama and ruupa as they are. It does not know the difference between ultimate realities and concepts. Moha is ignorant of the four noble Truths, of dukkha, of its origination, of its ceasing and of the way leading to its ceasing. So long as there is ignorance we have to continue in the cycle of birth and death. Ignorance is the first link of the Dependent Origination. ****** Nina. 46311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard nilovg Hi Sarah, op 03-06-2005 11:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Maybe New > York sometime with Nina too.... N: Yea, invading Howard's home in Long Island. Great! Just this evening Lodewijk said he wants a sentimental journey in New York, to see the U.N. again. We are not sure when. I liked the Sarah/ Howard dialogue. What only surprised me, Howard said: you have to look. I wonder: look at what. We look the whole day, will we become any the wiser? Maybe another kind of looking? Larry also used once this expression. Nina. 46312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Mike and Howard, Of course, we do not have to use the word abhidhamma, we can call it dhamma. Is this perhaps helpful, Howard: when seeing the word Abhidhamma do not think of a text, but rather of the teaching of realities appearing right now? Paramattha dhammas appearing right now? And yes, what is directly experienced is far more precise than any description we read about. It is subtle and precise. In this sense we can say that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time, and in the suttas he spoke to different people with different accumulations. He helped them with the right words so that they could be led to enlightenment. When I think of synopsis or outlining, I have associations with theory. To me that is not Abhidhamma. Nina. op 03-06-2005 15:40 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Hi Howard, > From: ... I see Abhidhamma as > an>> attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching > context and with primary attention to precision. 46313 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Sarah, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I "like" poundings, but I really don't mind them. The consequences at work are that I "get" to do a lot of things that everyone else dreads. C'est la vie. Sorry for the French instead of Pali there (BTW: What IS the Pali for c'est la vie?) > S: there, Howard. Someone who likes poundings!! Dan, quite possible. But > now, the recordings are 'super-edited' (snipped all long pauses, long > stories, coughs, outrageous laughter, Thai....). Anyway, listen again when > you get your i-pod (-- great on walks too. Jon's been listening to the > Thai talks this way for years) and let me know what you find. What's a "walk"? In America we drive everywhere all the time. Really, I drive a lot, but I don't walk very much unless it is with someone who'd rather be talking. For example, when I walk long distances with my 9 year old son Matt, we sometimes play cribbage. The first time, it went something like this: "Dad, let's play cribbage." "No, Matt, we have to keep moving so we can get back before dark. I don't have any cards anyway." "You don't understand. Deal yourself a random hand, and we can just play in our minds. That way we don't needs cards, and we don't need to stop walking. Make sure your hand is realistic and not TOO good." > I think the > pounding is usually pretty mutual. I quiver in anticipation....:-). I didn't realize that you enjoyed it so much that you quiver with excitement and joy! > S: :-). Thanks, Dan ....(also to Herman for your good wishes). Jon's also > leaving HK Government after 20 years with it (60 is official retirement > age for civil servants here), but he intends to keep working for a while > if he can. Best wishes to Jon, too. And keep out of trouble! A lot of those government jobs are designed to keep you out of trouble -- but some government workers are so incorrigible that they cause trouble anyway. > We'd love to meet some of you guys in the States if we find we > have more time and enough $, but that's down the road a while. Maybe New > York sometime with Nina too.... Gosh, it'd be great if you could do a west coast stop as well. Lisa and I have been in Oregon nearly two years now, and aren't there several other dsg'ers out here too (like Mike in Washington, Kom in San Francisco, etc.)? Dan 46314 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:20am Subject: The 5 Levels of Purification ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Grades of Mental Purity: Initially the Noble Learner temporarily disables the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Substitution by the Opposite' using insight: Lust is temporarily substituted by disgust, anger by friendliness, restlessness by calm, laziness by energy and doubt is substituted by certainty. Later the Noble Learner temporarily overcomes the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Suppression' by entering one-pointed absorption of concentration, which is unmixed, unpolluted & untainted by hindrances. Later the Noble Learner permanently eliminates a partial fraction of the hindrances & bindings by 'Cutting Off' at reaching path-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Magga) state. Later the Noble Learne(r)d permanently eliminates the remaining fraction of hindrances by effortless 'Calming' at reaching the fruition-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Phala) state. Finally the Noble Learned irreversibly leaves behind all mental hindrances and bindings by 'Escape' into the unconditioned & unconditional element of Nibbana, without remaining traces of neither clinging nor other fuels left... Take Home: Substitution => Suppression => Cut Off => Calming => Escape! Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46315 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi Sara, When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread (I will try to remember names next time). When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. I was not clear as to what was what from there responses. I probable should have stated that I was not looking for personal opinions or debate (unless the Theravadan abdharama is not clear). I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this group is isolated to the Theravadan version). You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana." By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan abdharama? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott <...> --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi all, > > Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? ... S: Who were 'you two'? I think it's a typo for nibbana. Nibbana is the only 'unconditioned' dhamma or reality. There are also 'conditioned' realities. ... > > The five aggregates of a human is real? ... S: yes, the five aggregates are real. The human is a concept. .... <...> 46316 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, nina (and Mike) - In a message dated 6/3/05 3:23:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Mike and Howard, Of course, we do not have to use the word abhidhamma, we can call it dhamma. Is this perhaps helpful, Howard: when seeing the word Abhidhamma do not think of a text, but rather of the teaching of realities appearing right now? Paramattha dhammas appearing right now? And yes, what is directly experienced is far more precise than any description we read about. It is subtle and precise. In this sense we can say that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time, and in the suttas he spoke to different people with different accumulations. He helped them with the right words so that they could be led to enlightenment. When I think of synopsis or outlining, I have associations with theory. To me that is not Abhidhamma. Nina. ============================ I have no problem with what you say here, Nina, none at all. My reticence with regard to the terminology of "Abhidhamma in the suttas" is based on my sense that when some people speak this way they have a hidden agenda that is unclear to me and worrisome. For me, the term 'Buddhadhamma' is quite good enough. The Dhamma, the *Buddha's* Dhamma, is already the highest dhamma, IMO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46317 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah and Larry) - In a message dated 6/3/05 3:25:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I liked the Sarah/ Howard dialogue. What only surprised me, Howard said: you have to look. I wonder: look at what. We look the whole day, will we become any the wiser? Maybe another kind of looking? Larry also used once this expression. Nina. ======================= Yes, a special looking. There is a saying that refers to one who looks but does not see. I am referring to a looking that enables one to truly see. Such looking requires vigorous effort, great energy, strong intention, sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of application. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46318 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Lisa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > [[[[waves at James--> I am actually an artist...hahaha]]] > > With Metta and giggles, > Lisa Thanks for your cute e-mail. It really made me smile. May we all discover the dhamma in our everyday lives (difficult jobs, moving and conflicting with bfs, horrible families, etc.) rather than thinking the dhamma is only to be found in the texts. Keep sharing your story and write to me offlist at: buddhatrue@... if you would like to be added to my personal mailing list. Take care. Metta, James 46319 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > ======================= > With metta, > Howard Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? Metta, James 46320 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/3/05 8:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Howard: > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > ======================= > With metta, > Howard Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? ====================== Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* crabby intended! When I wrote that "platitude", I meant exactly what I said: that prior to enlightenment we are all much like mechanical men, walking around like Frankenstein monsters with arms out in front of us, staring glassy-eyed, without any gleam of real intelligence. What did you *think* I meant? It was a commentary on the state of all of us! Oh, BTW, when I made that comment about robots following Sarah's mention of robots and her allegedly being infuriating (and, Sarah, I don't find either you or Jon to be infuriating, just a bit stubborn ;-), I knew nothing about the internet questionnaire. If you had previously posted about it, James, I missed it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46321 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self because it is impermanent and impersonal. Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it another way, all I see is ignorance. Larry 46322 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Is there any 'tool' ? [ was Walking Meditation ] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, and other interested members} - I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). To do a better job than before, I have no choice but to give you a long message with credible explanations and sufficient sutta references. [I am aware of the excellent Satipatthana note by Nina, and will refer to it if and when it is needed later on.] (I) Background Information on sati-sampajanna and satipatthana Pali Text Society ============= "Sampajanna [fr. sampajana, i. e. *sampajanya] = attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection. Often combined with sati, with which almost synonymous. "Sati = memory, recognition, consciousness, intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self- possession, conscience, self-consciousness. Nyanatiloka =========== "Sati = 'mindfulness', is one of the 5 spiritual faculties and powers (s. bala), one of the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga), and the 7th link of the 8-fold Path. "Satipatthana = the 4 'foundations of mindfulness', lit. 'awareness of mindfulness' (sati-upatthana), are: contemplation of body, feeling, mind and mind-objects". Nyanatiloka notes that 'satipatthana' (4 foundations of mindfulness) "are in reality not to be taken as merely separate exercises", but "as things inseparably associated with each other". Yet, he was wise enough to recognize each contemplation of the body as an "exercise". In his own words : "The contemplation of the body (kayanupassana) consists of the following exercises: mindfulness with regard to in-and-outbreathing (anapanasati), minding the 4 postures (iriyapatha), mindfulness and clarity of consciousness (satisampajanna), reflection on the 32 parts of the body (s. kayagatasati and asubha), analysis of the 4 physical elements (dhatuvavatthana), cemetery meditations (sivathika)". "Sampajanna = 'clarity of consciousness', clear comprehension. This term is frequently met with in combination with mindfulness (sati). In D. 22, M. 10 it is said: 'Clearly conscious is he in going and coming, clearly conscious in looking forward and backward, ...' ...". Nanamoli Bhikkhu: =============== "Sampajanna = full awareness; fully aware". (II) Training for establishing sati-sampajanna as expounded in the suttas From the background information in (I) it is safe to conclude that sati- sampajanna = mindful and fully aware, mindful awareness, clear comprehension, or clear awareness. It can be trained, according to the Buddha. One way to train (sikkhati) for sati-sampajanna is to be fully aware of all body movements and activities. For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with clear awareness..[endquote] It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. Beyond MN 39, mindful awareness is established through mindfulness training exercises that employ the whole spectrum of "bodies in the body" (kaye-kaya), known as mindfulness "immersed" in the body (kayagata-sati, MN 119). These exercises are also given in kayanupassana of the satipatthana in DN 22. Let me compare the two suttas on the same "exercise" given in MN 39. MN 119: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body". Tep's note : Please observe the words "mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered". They describe samatha tranquillity. DN 22: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... ... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself"." [endquote] Please make a careful note of the Buddha's wordings about the "training" to establish mindfulness in the body (kaya and kaye- kaya) in MN 119 versus DN 22. I believe that MN 119 emphasizes establishing sati-sampajanna in the body without contemplation of the ti-lakkhana, while DN 22 has both samatha and vipassana bhavana. The purpose of the samatha for establishing mindfulness in the body should not be overlooked <"any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered">. Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article #172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- sampajanna in the "training exercises". Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points clear. Tell me what you think. Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > (snipped) > > >Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are > >one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to > >develop such conditions are another. ... > >For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which > >requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, > >concentration, and insights. ... > > (snipped) > > Is there any 'tool' described here? I don't think so. I see it as a > description of ordinary, everyday, monks' activities. And I think the > rest of the kayanupasana section can also be seen as describing > activities forming part of the life lead by different kinds of monks, > rather than actions to be deliberately undertaken for the sake of a > satipatthana 'practice'. > > That's all for this post. I hope to come back on more of your points later! > > Jon 46323 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? lbidd2 Howard: "Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-)" Hi Howard, Even after enlightenment we are more or less robots as long as we live. See below. Vism.XVIII,31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks'. Larry 46324 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/4/05 12:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Howard: "Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-)" Hi Howard, Even after enlightenment we are more or less robots as long as we live. See below. Vism.XVIII,31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks'. Larry ========================= In the sense that there is no person to be found, I agree with you. But in another sense, the sense that I intended, with complete awakening, sleep walking is done with - robotic action (and reaction) is done with. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46325 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Thank you so much for the answer to the posted question (Part 2, Section iii) and for your question. Larry: > > There seems to be a subtle vacillation between sign (rupa) and the >idea it represents. Possibly this stabilizes as one becomes more >skillful. Also, this suggests there is a closer relationship between >concept and reality than I had thought. I had previously thought a >sign is a concept, but it looks like a sign is a reality interpreted as a >concept. > What do you think? > Tep: The sign is not just a physical location where the breaths touch. When sati is established at the touch point, you will be aware of the contact (phassa) and associated sensation quite clearly. At that time "the sign" is no longer a concept anymore-- you can experience it. And all the time awareness of the in and out breaths is also present. When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ?" > > Hi Tep, > > The three ideas are sign, in-breath, and out-breath. The object of jhana is sign. In this case the sign is the place where the in-breath and > out-breath brush back and forth. That is where attention should be > placed, rather than on in-breath or out-breath. There is awareness of > these two but that awareness is in the background and shouldn't be > cultivated. > > What is not mentioned is that there is a mix of sensation (rupa) and > concepts of in-breath, out-breath, and place where they brush back and forth. It occurred to me that there are three rupas that are the signs > of these three concepts. In other words, a certain rupa is interpreted > as in-breath, another rupa is interpreted as out-breath, and a third > rupa is interpreted as the place where they brush back and forth. This > gives us three signs but I think we can still say the object of jhana is > the sign where they brush back and forth because it is easiest to rest > attention there, while 'in' or 'out' movements may be conducive to > wandering mind. 46326 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 6/3/05 8:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard: > > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > > ======================= > > With metta, > > Howard > > Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's > message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems > rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? > ====================== > Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* > crabby intended! Okay, I misread. No big deal. Maybe I felt like I needed to stick up for Sarah for a change. Her group currently is being overrun with 'meditators' and that can be quite frustrating to her and the old DSG members. She was reaching out and I saw your comment as slapping that hand reaching out. But I could be wrong and I should have just not made any comments. I must be a robot too and my psychic ability just short curcuited! ;-)). Metta, James 46327 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:29pm Subject: No internal Agent but just Dependence ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Who or What creates the Pain ? They asked the blessed Buddha: Is suffering created by oneself ? He answered: Not so! Is suffering created by another ? He answered: Not so! Is suffering created both by oneself & another? Not so! Is suffering created neither by oneself nor another? Not so! Suffering arise in Dependence... ! Dependent on what... ? Dependent on Contact..., do all suffering arise... Without contact it is impossible to experience any suffering! Dependent on Contact do Feeling arise. Dependent on Feeling do Craving arise. Dependent on Craving do Clinging arise. Dependent on Clinging do Becoming arise. Dependent on Becoming do Birth arise. Dependent on Birth do Decay & Death arise. Dependent on Decay & Death do Suffering arise. Note: Death here is both death of the moment & death at life's end. There is no agent nor 'doer' nor 'observer neither inside nor outside... There is this passing sequence of momentary causally dependent states. The prior mental moment conditioning the next and this the next etc... Quite impersonal is this flux. Not anything worth clinging to !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 32-43 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-06-2005 05:40 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What > I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha > dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self > nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self > because it is impermanent and impersonal. > > Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as > not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it > another way, all I see is ignorance. --------------- N: Ignorance is explained as a mental reality: We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): Moha experiences an object, the same object as the citta it accompanies, but, it does not see the true nature of the object. Moha is not an abstract entity, the Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. It refers to actualities, to what arises now. I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if there is no development of satipatthana. Lodewijk often refers to this sutta: Kindred Sayings V, 449 (Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch V, 2) the Precipice. When the Buddha was staying on Vulture's Peak he went with some monks to Splendid Spur and a monk said that there was a great and fearsome precipice. The Buddha answered: When in India, we climbed Vulture's Peak and saw some deep precipices. You wrote: Only one way to have less ignorance. We are ignorant of seeing, of vibile object, we do not see them as impermanent and non-self. The way to have more understanding which illuminates the object: being aware of seeing and visible object that arise now. At such moments understanding of their different characteristics can develop. We can learn that there are objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. The first stage of insight is discerning the difference between nama and rupa, and different namas cannot be known precisely yet. Paññaa has to be developed further. Ignorance falls away but its characteristic can be known by paññaa that arises shortly afterwards. 46329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard nilovg Hi Howard, I have no trouble with volition or effort. I am glad you mention now also other mental qualities together with volition. I would like to add something. -------------- op 03-06-2005 23:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Yes, a special looking. There is a saying that refers to one who looks > but does not see. I am referring to a looking that enables one to truly see. > Such looking requires vigorous effort, great energy, strong intention, > sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of > application. ------------- I find it so helpful to learn about all the sobhana cetasikas, wholesome mental qualities, that support one moment of kusala citta. There also have to be chanda, wish-to-do, adhimokkha, wholesome decision that is determined about kusala, confidence in kusala, and yes, right effort. There are wieldiness, adaptability, lightness, etc. These prevent rigidity of mind, and help citta to be supple and competent for kusala. To speak with Htoo, it is a whole army supporting kusala citta. Studying this helps us to see how intricate conditions are for one moment of kusala citta. Last night I could chose between relaxing with a book or a kind of bhavana: listening to the audio and copying it on my recorder. It was a little late, but it just happened that I chose the second option and I did not regret it. I learn each time when listening and considering. It was about sense-door and mind-door and how insight knowledge knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. But how difficult it is to know the mind-door. It made me realize how little I know, but this does not cause a feeling of hopelessness or helplesness. It helps truthfulness, one of the perfections we cannot do without. And we also need courage. When I was chosing between two possibilities, I did not think of volition, effort, decision, it just happened because of conditions. It is not possible to try to have kusala volition and effort right at that moment, it all happens so fast. You write: < sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of application.> Sustained and repeated practice: yes, understanding accumulates when it arises again and again. We know it is not self, it arises because of conditions, but deep in our minds? Enormous subtlety and balance of application: Paññaa is very subtle and it keeps the balance between all the sobhana cetasikas arising together with it. And now I am studying the akusala cetasikas, what a contrast! With moha there is darkness all around. But we do not know it. There is no wieldiness or adaptability. There are also volition and effort, but they lead downwards. Paññaa is very subtle and it can see when volition is kusala and when akusala. When effort is akusala and when kusala. It is a lifetask to develop paññaa. It conditions sincerity, not taking for kusala what is akusala. Nina 46330 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Howard, Good. But it is just the word 'hidden agenda'. Lodewijkk said, politicians accuse one another of this, but I am sure you do not mean this. Lodewijk said, it is time to straighten things out in person with you in New York. I believe that nobody on this list is insincere or has a hidden agenda. There are many different opinions but people are straightforward and they do not think of gaining anything for themselves like fame. Nina. op 03-06-2005 22:58 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > My reticence > with regard to the terminology of "Abhidhamma in the suttas" is based on my > sense that when some people speak this way they have a hidden agenda that is > unclear to me and worrisome. For me, the term 'Buddhadhamma' is quite good > enough. The Dhamma, the *Buddha's* Dhamma, is already the highest dhamma, IMO. 46331 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163, ignorance. nilovg Hi Larry, My letter flew out to you uncontrolled, and to be sure, here it is again. I was just adding a last sentence. op 04-06-2005 05:40 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What > I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha > dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self > nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self > because it is impermanent and impersonal. > > Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as > not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it > another way, all I see is ignorance. --------------- N: Ignorance is explained as a mental reality: We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): Moha experiences an object, the same object as the citta it accompanies, but, it does not see the true nature of the object. Moha is not an abstract entity, the Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. It refers to actualities, to what arises now. I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if there is no development of satipatthana. Lodewijk often refers to this sutta: Kindred Sayings V, 449 (Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch V, 2) the Precipice. When the Buddha was staying on Vulture's Peak he went with some monks to Splendid Spur and a monk said that there was a great and fearsome precipice. The Buddha answered: When in India, we climbed Vulture's Peak and saw some deep precipices. You wrote: Only one way to have less ignorance. We are ignorant of seeing, of visible object, we do not see them as impermanent and non-self. The way to have more understanding which illuminates the object: being aware of seeing and visible object that arise now. At such moments understanding of their different characteristics can develop. We can learn that there are objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. The first stage of insight is discerning the difference between nama and rupa, and different namas cannot be known precisely yet. Paññaa has to be developed further. Ignorance falls away but its characteristic can be known by paññaa that arises shortly afterwards. I was reminded by Kh Sujin that the purpose of our study of cetasikas is not just reading on and on, but to understand realities. We can gradually learn the difference between a moment of understanding and a moment of ignorance. Nina. 46332 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163, ignorance. philofillet Hi Nina, Larry and all > I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do > not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. > We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if > there is no development of satipatthana. Ph: Yesterday I was listening to Kh Sujin and the group discussing moha. Kh Sujin kept asking "When and where?" When and where?" and of course it is always, always after a moment of seeing, always after a moment of hearing, always. It is so pervasive, so overwhelming. I think too of the sutta, buring, the way the eye is burning, forms are burning, seeing consciousness is burning with greed, hate and ignorance - but first because of all the ignorance. Frightening...hopeless....a lost cause? No, because we know the Buddha taught us because he knew that it *is* possible to develop right understanding. And I'm grateful that I'm not tripping along blissfully with false notions about it being easy to develop understanding. But it's not difficult either, because that implies a self struggling to get it. So we go on with patience, good cheer and cheerfulness...and irritation, or whatever there is. Kom (I think) wondered in this tape how moha can be known directly, because if there is moha how can there also be the panna that knows it? I thought that was a good question, but I can't remember the answer. Sorry if any of this is redundant. Because of my irritated eyes and lack of time to participate as much as I did before (I've taken on a second job) I can't read through all the posts. I will have an orgy of posting tonight, though. My fingers are trembling in anticipation! Metta, Phil 46333 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing, Below you stated that,"I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization." The main/basic practice of Buddhism (in 90% of the schools) is to discipline the Mind to refrain from evil and cultivate virtue. Because it is normal and natural for evil to arise, control is the goal (to protect the mind, body, and speech). The main/basic purpose of sitting meditation is to create a state (of mind, body, and speech) where one can become more aware of the arising and declining of both evil and virtue. CharlesD PS: When I was 17, I told one of my teachers I stop meditating because I didn't think I need it. His reply was, "Meditation is really tough, isn't it." I argued it uselessness instead. He repeated the statement. Now almost 30 years later I realize that at the time I did not understand the statement and I had only scratched the surface (of meditation). ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 22 May, 2005 01:14 Subject: [dsg] Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha Dear Tep, Sarah, and DSG members, The Buddha preached the very first doctrine to His first 5 disciples. In that teaching, He preached 'the middle way'. The middle starts with 'right understanding' or 'samma-ditthi'. In essence, it is pannindriya cetasika or panna. Understanding is so important that it comes first among 8 parted Path. When pariyatti is wrong then patipatti is wrong and there is no pativedha. When an arrow is released from a bow and it goes not to the target, the destination will be far from the target. So trigonometrically speaking, tangent theta has to be zero so that the arrow hits the target. To happen such thing, the initial understanding has to be right one. Otherwise the target will be totally missed. Right. I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization. 46334 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing, I am still trying not to go from my own experiences so: I found the book I was talking about but what I remembered is slightly different from what is in it. The book is: "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (C.1992 by the Vuddhidhamma Fund); Vuddhidhamma Fund for Study and Practice of Dhamma PO Box No. 26 Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand Tel. (02) 526-5008 The book dismisses Life to Life (the 3 life time) DO as a contamination from Hinduism. I did find other problems with the book, this time. However, the book does explain Moment to Moment DO in normal people and Arhants. It lists the links a follows: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION (p. 107) -- IGNORANCE NIBBANA - * * MENTAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONCOCTING DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * I would also recommend reading Chogyam Trungpa's "Myth of Freedom" and "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism." Both books have a chapter on the development of the Ego (I call the self). Trungpa provides a very good example of DO at work in normal people. NOW: You stated: "'Life to life' D.O. and 'moment to moment' D.O. are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking." YES you are right, the linking is the same. The links defining DO are but symbols of physical and mental processes. Each process can cause the one before or after it. However, I prefer to say that each process can be conditioned by the one before or after it, or even both. YOU ask: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O. with moment to moment events." If you can't get Trungpa's two books let me know and I will try to get the chapters on the EGO scanned in and emailed to you (let me know: dacostas@... ). I am currently working on scanning in the other book. CharlesD PS: It is interesting, I can see that I am so attached to the above 3 books that I am having a very hard time explaining DO in my own words. I guess this also means I really don't know it that well. ;-] I guess I have some work to do .. thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 23 May, 2005 11:57 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Charles D, ... 'Life to life' D.O and 'moment to moment' D.O are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking. What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events. D.O experts are away from DSG, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There are people who claim to see D.O during meditation sessions, :-)) 46335 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard philofillet Hi Nina, Howard, and all > N: When I was chosing between two possibilities, I > did not think of volition, effort, decision, it just happened because of > conditions. It is not possible to try to have kusala volition and effort > right at that moment, it all happens so fast. Ph: And it can happen a lot. It needn't be so rare that conditions lead us to wholesome behaviour (though I guess it is rare for that kusala to be accompanied by panna?) The next time we are faced with the choice, there will be remembering of the benefits of the kusala, and it is likely the moment of kusala volition will be repeated. Likely. Not to be counted on, but likely enough to do away with any discouraging talk of hopelessness etc. There are so many moments in the day of conditions causing kusala volition to arise - maybe that's what taking refuge in Dhamma is all about, gaining confidence in kusala, along with the peace of mind that comes from knowing that we needn't fret about making right or wrong decisions. If we do, it is akusala. I understand why Kh Sujin says she doesn't worry about her akusala. We have accumulated so much lobha and dosa and ignorance that there will be *lots* of akusala coming our way. The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning (and so on) with greed, hate and ignorance. The lotus grows in the muck but thanks to the true Dhamma and association with the wise we being to see more and more the truth of conditioned nama and rupa. We relax and there are conditions for kusala, and this kusala conditions more of the same. Slowly, slowly there is a gradual loosening of the roots of the defilements. Trying to tear them out by concentrated willpower is bound to fail - the roots will just clench tighter - but when we relax there is a loosening. I feel so confident about that these days. Metta, Phil 46336 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles That list was suppose to look like: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION * * --IGNORANCE NIBBANA-- MENTAL CONCOCTING KNOWLEDGE OF THE DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * 46337 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Sarah & Htoo Sarah, When Htoo stated: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events." You replied with: "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or akusala?" Htoo then replied with: "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage of the whole circle temporarily." AND "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of satipatthaana." AND "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." I have to ask and state: What is Satipatthaana? And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am off base: Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated (give rise to other events). CharlesD 46338 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Dan, Azita, Howard and all.. Dan > You say you KNOW that having expectations about when and how sati > will arise is wrong, but that you FEEL that having a conceptual > understanding first is helpful. Ph: I've had some time to think about this. And I FEEL quite confident that it is not only helpful, it is essential. The conceptual understanding is all the words contained in the tipitaka. We are worldlings who do not have the insight that penetrates the words to get at the realities beneath, yet, so we must start with the words. I ahve been hearing a lot in the recorded talks about how we must get our nose out of the book and reflect on the realities that the book is listing or describing. Jon described very nicely how rare it is that we recall that what we are reading about our realities, but that it is easier in discussion, especially with a Dhamma friend like Kh Sujin who keeps bringing us back to the realities. "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we must have that first. There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult and fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. (A bit afterwards, Kh Sujin says that knowing the process is anatta is pariyatti, so in this case it would seem that curde intellectual understanding can also be pariyatti, not only realities.) Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think about understanding realities directly before understanding them intellectually. And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) to lead us toward direct understanding. I've come to FEEL that when Kh Sujin tells us to know realities directly by their characteristics, without words, she is exercising a middle-way nudge away from the bank of intellectual clinging, for moments later in the same talk you'll hear her say "the more we read, the more we understand anatta" and other affirmations that proper intellectual understanding must precede direct knowing. It reminds me (as so much in Dhamma reminds me) of the gentle paradox of the crossing the flood sutta. (When I pressed ahead I was swept away, but when I stayed in place, I sank.) I used to think this was contradictory, but now I think these paradoxes are helpful and keep our minds flexible/elastic and with more capacity for truth. >How can grasping at a concept and > trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what > things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right > Understanding? There is a difference between grasping and soaking it in patiently. We don't have to struggle hard to get things. I listen to the same talk many times as the weeks go by and let difficult ideas roll right on by again and again. But every time I listen to a talk there might be something new that understanding is able to embrace - and then let go again. But that brief embrace conditions more understanding later. And the way things "ought to" look like is - again - in line with what was enlightened by the Buddha. For example, I wasn't actually interested in knowing more about motion, but my attention (and irritation) was caught by Kh Sujin's suggestion that Azita wouldn't know unless she knew the characteristic. I thought that there would be concise, conceptual descriptions of the ways in which the reality of motion is manifested, its characteristics, functions etc. And I thought that Kh Sujin could have shared one of them - briefly - with Azita, even as she reminded her that these were just words and the direct understanding of the characteristic was the only thing that would matter. (I thought afterwards that Kh Sujin might know the chance to discuss is rare, and that we can do our book studying at some other time, so she chooses to avoid too much citing and references) Anyways, I decided to look up motion. I checked Nina's book on Rupas, and found some helpful words. For example, when we feel pressure in our stomach after eating it would be motion. I was reminded that the four elements always rise together. In Bh Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of hundering for sait? Less likely, I think - we know better than that pretty early on, don't we? The day before yesterday I was sitting on my balcony with my morning coffee and some suttas. A mother carrying a toddler on the back of her bicycle whizzed by. The child said "I'm cold!" and PING I had a little understanding of motion. The temperature element and the motion element were there together. And then I let it go. Until now. FOr what it's worth, it was conditioned by what I read in the book about motion being "experienced as tangible pressure." Now I have a deeper understanding of what goes on when we feel cold - it is pressure (motion) as well as temperature. It will arise again, and graudaly panna will come to know whether it is valuable or not. (I like very much what Nina said once: "We heard about the Brahma- Viharas, and it is panna that sees the value of them." We *hear about* realities in conceptual language, and that is just the beginning of the complex conditioned processes by which we will understand them more deeply, or not. > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > conceptualization. Ph: I still get irritated by her on occasion, but I get irritated by everyone. I have accumulations in that direction. The other day I was jogging as I listened and I got *really* irritated when Sarah was asking about immoral deeds, and Kh Sujin said that there is "no need to write them down" (ie list) them, and then suddenly said "I think we should walk now" and cut off the conversation. I shouted "no SHOULD!" which is one of her favourite lines. I have never studied Dhamma under a teacher so there are times I get irritated by the dynamics involved. But man oh man am I being helped by her, day in, day out. The moments of irritation are few and far between. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks for asking about my eyes. The terminal is now, and much bigger and brighter than our old computer. My eyelid flutters and twitches. Glasses are cheap here in Japan. I will get around to it, eventually. Foolish not too - I'm legally blind in my left eye and my right eye is weak too. 46339 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi again Ph >The moments of irritation are > few and far between. Forgot to mention that I think irritation when hearing Dhamma might be a good sign. I never felt irritated when listening/reading Thich Nhat Hahn's feelgood Dhamma, for example. True Dhamma should irritate us at times, because true dhamma goes against the way of the world, against our comforts, against our preconceptions. There is lobha which conditions the irritation when someone tries to take our pablum away from us. Metta, Phil 46340 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, Part 2 [Message # 997] Dear Friend Tep, The following is for your kind consideration. 59. - 148. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the 18 Principal Insights] .... [Han: you have not given the names of 18 Principal Insights. The following Pali names may be inserted with the English translation taken from your text. I do not have the English translation.] 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa 6. norodhaa-nupassanaa 7. patinissaggaa-nupassanaa 8. khaya-nupassanaa 9. vayaa-nupassanaa 10. viparinaamaa-nupassanaa 11. animittaa-nupassanaa 12. appanihitaa-nupassanaa 13. sunnataa-nupassanaa 14. adhipannaa-dhamma vipassanaa 15. yathaabhuta-naana-dassanaa 16. aadiinavaa-nupassanaa 17. patisankhaa-nupassanaa 18. vivattaa-nupassanaa ------------------------------ 172. 'Breathing in' (aana) is in-breath (assaasa); 'breathing out' (apaana) is out-breath (passaasa). [Read 'aanan ti assaaso no passaaso, apaanan ti passaaso no assaaso'. 'Assaasavasena upatthaanam sati, passasavasena upatthaanam sati'.] Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him. 173. 'Perfect' (paripunnaa): perfect in the sense of embracing (pariggaha) [jhana, insight and path]; perfect in the sense of [the mutual] equipment (parivaara) [of all ideas connected therewith]; perfect in the sense of perfection (paripuura). 174. 'Well developed' (subhaavitaa) : There are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (i) development in the sense of non-excess (anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) arisen therein (I 135), (ii) development in the sense of single function (eka rasa) of the faculties (indriya) (I 134), (iii) development in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy (tadupaga viriya), (iv) development in the sense of repetition (aasevana). These four kinds of development (bhaavanaa) in him are made the vehicle (yaanikata), made the ground (vatthukata), consolidated (anutthitaa), reinforced (paricitaa) and brought to very sameness (susamaa-raddhaa). 'Made the vehicle' (yaanikata): he has mastery, power and assurance wherever he wishes, those ideas [of serenity and insight] are ready for his adverting (aavajjana-patibaddhaa), ready to his wish (aakankha-patibaddhaa), ready to his attention (manasikaara-patibaddhaa), ready to his arising of cognizance (cittuppaada-patibaddhaa). Hence 'made the vehicle' (yaanikata) was said. ------------------------------ With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > My presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge > of cleansing' > (Group III) continues. Again, please be reminded > that words within > square brackets [ ] most of the times are > Commentary. > ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > I am grateful to all helps I have so far received from Dr. Han Tun, who is > very resourceful in handling difficult Pali words. He has the original Pali > text of the Patisambhidamagga and its Burmese and English > translations, while I have the Thai version (and limited Pali knowledge). > > Whenever Han has read my new post and given me an advice on the > Pali translation and other useful thoughts, I will post his message here > in this "Han Tun's Contribution" thread. > 46341 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable philofillet ?@?@Hi Howard and all Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. ?„I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses > two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't > consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise > and are experienced. I read the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation. For me when the Buddha asks "Do you have any desire lust or affection for those forms congizable by the eye that you have not seen and never saw before, that you do not see and would not think might be seen?" he is just asking if there are still conditions for lust et al to arise. Of course, being the Buddha, he would know whether the person he was speaking to was an arahant or not. Then, in confirmation, the Buddha says "regarding things seen, heard, sensed and congnized by you: in the seen there will be mereley the seen; in the heard there will be merely the heard" etc. To me this sounds like the sutta about the arahant who sees not a beautiful woman walking by, but just the bones of her teeth. He stops at seeing. Which is, of course, something that we cannot aspire to any day soon - but it is always inspiring to read about arahants. That's the way I took this, but you have looked more deeply into it than I have and have found something more complex to probe than I found. Everyone reads suttas with different accumulations. I was interested to read that when Larry was a kid he used to think deeply about the water from a phenemonological point of view. So he was born with conditions for deep intellecutal probing. I guess you might have those conditions too. I don't probe so hard. Which is fine. Conditions. I like this phrase that is used in the BB translation: "you will not be 'by that', then you will not be 'therein'." I think this helps me appreciate how conditions ("by that") lead me into good or bad times ('therein'.) Of course the trouble/danger is not only hard times, pain etc. We are ignorant of the danger inherent in the khandas when times are good as well. More ignorant when times are good. There is only one way out of this "by that" and "therein." I hope other people will pass along suttas that they think are very valuable. Metta, Phil 46342 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:47am Subject: Characteristic of karuna - reaching out to help? philofillet Hi all I'd like to tell you a little story that has had me thinking about the characteristic of karuna. One Sunday morning a few weeks back I was walking around Tokyo as I do every week before work. I was watching some baseball games in an enclosed area of a park, then realized that I couldn't get out without going all the way back. I was in danger of being late for work so I decided to climb a fence to get out. It was one of those black cast-iron fences with the nasty spikes. I got up on top of it and paused, because there were people coming along the sidewalk on the other side and I didn't want to startle them. So I kind of perched up there on top of the fence, playing it cool, as though everything was A -Ok. In fact, I now realized that I was going to have more trouble getting down on the other side than I thought. The people came along and I perched there, faking nonchalance. There was an elderly woman, around 80 I guess, walking her dog. And when she saw me she gasped with concern, and then - amazingly - reached out her hand to offer to help me down. This is in Japan, where there is a lot of fear of foreigners, but this little old lady reached out her hand to help me, as though I wouldn't just crush her into the ground if I took her offer. That moment of reaching out to help, with no consideration of the logic of it, or the danger involved in it - it made me wonder if it was very pure karuna. (No way to know the other's citta - maybe she was a masochistic little old lady who had been fantasizing for years about being crushed by a plummeting foreigner.) So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? I remember Howard once said that he thought karuna is called for in certain situations but metta is called for in all situations - that has stuck with me. I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. Metta, Phil p.s This will be my last post for this week's Saturday night splurge. I won't be able to respond until next Saturday but I will read responses in this and other threads with interest and get back to you next week. p.p.s congratulations, Sarah, on wrapping up your business. I often think of your description of how busy you were in past years, with only time to read a little Dhamma at bedtime before you feel asleep. I think there may be conditions at work to bring that kind of productivity into my daily life...we'll see... 46343 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing I finally got the book I was talking about but was slightly disappointed. I remembered it a little differently, but it is still useful. The book is: "PATICCASAMUPPADA: PRACTICAL DEPENDENT ORIGINATION"; by Buddhadasa Bick @ 1992 by the VUDDHIDHAMMA FUND Vuddhidhamma Fund for Study and Practice of Dharma; PO Box No. 26; Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand; Tel. (02) 526-5008 Below is a list of the links presented in the book: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION (p.107) * * --IGNORANCE NIBBANA-- MENTAL CONCOCTING KNOWLEDGE OF THE DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * YOU Stated/asked: "'Life to life' D.O and 'moment to moment' D.O are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking." The answer is yes. The links are really symbols of mental and physical process, so their meanings/interpretations can vary. Also the length of any of the processes can vary according to the situation. In fact the length of a process is unimportant. YOU also asked: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events." The above book and two books by Chogyam Trungpa (i.e., "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism," and "The Myth of Freedom") offer good examples. In each of Trungpa's two books is a chapter on the Development of the Ego. These two chapters offer an excellent example of DO at work (moment to moment). If you can't get the books, and would like to see them, let me know (dacostas@... ). I am scanning the chapters on DO into my computer. YOU stated: "DO experts are away from DSG, I think." I have to say that I have been so attached to the above books that I can not seem to formulate a clear and concise presentation of this stuff in my own words (without referring back to the books). This may mean that in reality I don't understand the concept fully. ;-] I guess I still have some work to do ... Thanks YOU also stated, "There are people who claim to see DO during meditation sessions" In the Moment to Moment sense, this is not hard to do. In fact, this is what Buddhadasa book is all about -- Knowing the raisings (births) and fadings away (deaths) so that, as Trungpa puts it, you can transform/transmute them. There by enter Nibbana CharlesD PS: OK, a little from me :-) The order of the links can vary too. E.g., Contact can give rise to concocting (and memories -- rebirth) at the same "relative instant." ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 23 May, 2005 11:57 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? 46344 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga , to Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, thank you for this and other posts. No nothing redundant, always good to be reminded again, also by what you got from the audio. I love it. I also discover something new each time, amazing. Your eyes: after staring for half an hour, do something in the kitchen, like preparing the cooking. That helps. See below. op 04-06-2005 12:39 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Ph: Yesterday I was listening to Kh Sujin and the group discussing > moha. Kh Sujin kept asking "When and where?" -------------- N: This reminds us that it is not an abstract entity, it is actual, a reality now. ------------- Ph: Kom (I think) wondered in this tape how moha can be known > directly, because if there is moha how can there also be the panna > that knows it? --------- N: Lodewijk also asked this and I tried to explain to Larry. Just as in the case of seeing, which is vipaakacitta. Kusala citta with sati sampajañña can follow after it and know its characteristic. But, I hear all the time about detachment. This should be emphasized. Paññaa and detachment go together. We should not think: how can I know moha, but all dhammas that appear can be gradually known. I find this passage of the Mahaarahulovada sutta very touching: <"Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?² "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form."> Rahula thought that it was enough to know only rupa, but all dhammas contained in the five khandhas should be known. There should be no selection. Rahula had to learn that they are only elements. The Buddha said: Understanding leads to detachment. Nina. 46345 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/4/05 1:07:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* > crabby intended! Okay, I misread. No big deal. Maybe I felt like I needed to stick up for Sarah for a change. --------------------------------------- Howard: Which is always a really nice thing to see! :-) [Sticking up for folks, that is.] ---------------------------------------- Her group currently is being overrun with 'meditators' and that can be quite frustrating to her and the old DSG members. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah - disgusting insideous types, those meditators! [ : - ( There oughta be immigration laws aginst them!! ;-)) --------------------------------------- She was reaching out and I saw your comment as slapping that hand reaching out. But I could be wrong and I should have just not made any comments. I must be a robot too and my psychic ability just short curcuited! ;-)). ------------------------------------ Howard: zzzzzzzznaaap, crackle, wires burning!!!! :-) While my final robot comment was truly innocent, you *did* properly pick up on some asperity and frustration earlier in the post and in a couple recent, not entirely equanimous, posts (incuding my "wishy-washy" post to Jon) on the same topic of volitional cultivation. So, yours was only a minor hardware glitch, I'd say. ----------------------------------- Metta, James ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristic of karuna - to Phil nilovg Hi Phil, op 04-06-2005 15:47 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to > do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? ------- N: When helping there can be alternately karuna and metta. Hard to pinpoint. When you see someone suffering there may be karuna, but only direct understanding can know precisely different moments. --------- Ph: I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single > time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I > think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. ---------- N: We discussed this with Kh Sujin and Ivan. When there is something you did not expect you may be overwhelmed. Kh Sujin said: we are a salad of feelings. Such a mixture. The same can happen when hearing beautiful music. Only the person himself can know, by direct understanding. We can reason that there are too many emotions to take in and tears come up. But we shall not know by reasoning. It is best to let it go and be ready for whatever appears next. Otherwise we cling to our experiences. Clinging always hinders, as we hear a lot these days. Nina. 46347 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/4/05 5:04:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Good. But it is just the word 'hidden agenda'. Lodewijkk said, politicians accuse one another of this, but I am sure you do not mean this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't mean "hidden agenda" in the sense of some sort of plot! ;-)) The phrase is misleading and too strong, because of its connotation.. What I had in mind was more along the lines of an unconscious or semiconscious motivation, arising out of a deep devotion to Abhidhamma (as a teaching, Nina, not just as direct knowing of reality), to promote the Abhidhamma Pitaka as superior to the Sutta Pitaka - to make even the *word* 'Abhidhamma' take priority over 'Dhamma'. I would have less concern about such a promoting were it being done with full awareness, but I see it, as I wrote, as somewhat "hidden" (even to the "promoters" themselves). Imagine, if you will, devoted meditators on a list who have the (wrong) idea that formal meditation is virtually the whole of the Dhamma [and there are *many* such folks], that it takes priority over all the rest, and that a regular meditation practice makes all else unimportant or even dispensable and just "an expression of self," and imagine that to a large extent such promoting of meditation over all else were done without full conscious awareness of doing so. Would that not be a problem? I hope this analogy clarifies my point a bit. -------------------------------------------------- Lodewijk said, it is time to straighten things out in person with you in New York. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- I believe that nobody on this list is insincere or has a hidden agenda. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe as well that there is no insincerity here whatsoever! I retract the phrase 'hidden agenda' - it was a very poor choice! I hope my explanations above clarified my intention. --------------------------------------------------- There are many different opinions but people are straightforward and they do not think of gaining anything for themselves like fame -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Fame? Of course not! Nina, one thing I have thought all along about the DSG folks, and which hasn't altered in the slightest, is that they are good, kind, and sincere people, and very much good friends! DSG has been and remains overwhelmingly my primary Buddhist email group. No other comes remotely close. And I would not remain anywhere that I viewed the core folks as anything other than good and sincere people. My comments expressed concern with regard to a view towards the Dhamma and towards Dhamma practice that I consider harmful to the Dhamma. I wish I had taken more time in formulating those comments in a more careful and equanimous way. For not doing so, I apologize. In particular, I should not have given any impression of there being anything less than an innocence of intention on the part of anyone here! (I truly believe that there is nothing but innocent intention here!) ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46348 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? philofillet Hi all >?Ethe list > is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, > you'll understand why we're so infuriating at times - don't blame us:- I found out I am a schoolyard bully, which I find strangely thrilling. Extroversion plus intuition plus brutality plus humility hiding insecurity. Quite accurate. The brutality was surprising, but I think it came mostly from an honest answer to a certain question. ("Have you ever killed a man with your bare hands?" haha no - actually it was... well, I told James off-list what it was but I will stop there. (oooh, now you really want to know....) In Dhamma terms, this test reminded me of SN 22.35 which says "if one has an underlying tendency towards something, then one is reckoned in terms of it." We know that there is no self, and that the khandas are rising and falling away, but this sutta reminds us that there are accumulated tendencies which give a sense of permanence to character. We should be aware of paying too much attention to this character, I think, because it is just one of countless characters that we have had and will have as we move along through samsara. And of course, even within one lifetime, people change - sometimes. Metta, Phil 46349 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/4/05 9:24:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard and all Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. ======================= Thanks, Phil, for your comments and interpretation. I agree that there are frequently several plausible alternative ways of interpreting a given sutta. Perhaps, it occurs to me, more than one interpretation is correct, with there being a multi-layer complexity of meaning in the Buddha's suttas that goes far beyond what we tend to glimpse. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46350 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:16am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon {Attn. Everyone who is interested in meditation.} - I want to comment on your message # 46281 which cites an exception, a "non-activity" within the first group of Satipatthana (the 4 foundations). Also, I want to discuss your comment on "no special activities" for the other 3 foundations (which you called anupassanas). This post is intended to be a continuation of my earlier-posted message # 46322. I expect it to be my last attempt to discuss this topic of "special activities" in detail with you. Of course, my communication door is always open, and so any dialogue between us will continue -- as usual, but it will be of a much lesser intensity. Jon: I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. Jon: Now reflection on the dhatus: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and can take place at any time, I think. Tep: Okay, Jon. But, instead of getting entangled in the details about the modes of materiality, let me first say what I think 'activity' means. According to the English-Pali Dictionary (Metta Net, Sri Lanka), activity : (m.) ussaaha; uyyoga; aatappa; viriyaarambha. You probably recall the Pali 'aatappa' which means ardour, zeal, exertion. And exertion is what 'viriyaarambha' is about -- it can be bodily or mentally. In the Satipatthana sutta the 3 magic words 'atapi sampajanno satima' accompany all four foundations. With regard to 'atapi', the Commentator explains as follows: "..because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa)". Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. Jon: First, the modes of deportment: "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a specific practice for developing mindfulness. Tep: Frankly, I don't understand how "mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc." can develop mindfulness! It is vague at best. I see that you are using the Commentator's words without your own thinking. You are also making a grave mistake by ignoring the Buddha's words in the sutta and, instead, choose to follow the commentator's words! In order to encourage you to think let me ask you this: What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and how would you develop mindfulness your way? HINT: The following Commentary is very useful for understanding that "the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana]" is a meditation through which the meditator obtains "quietude" (or samatha) through mindfulness(sati), while insight is obtained by "clear comprehension" (sampajanna). Therefore, you must have a well-defined object of sati to begin with. By the way, Jon, do not mix up sati with satipatthana, though. Comy. "In the passage beginning with 'ardent,' Right Exertion [sammappadhana] is stated by energy [atapa]; the subject of meditation proper in all circumstances [sabbatthika kammatthana] or the means of protecting the subject of meditation [kammatthana pariharana upaya], is stated by mindfulness and clear comprehension [sati sampajanna]; or the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; and the fruit of inner culture [bhavana phala] through the overcoming of covetousness and grief [abhijjha domanassa vinaya]. [endquote] Jon: For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. Tep: If you have carefully studied my above explanations, you probably have found out that your view has been wrong and why. Reread the Comy. again and again : " ..the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension.." Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. Yours truly, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > > I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on > kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. > > First, the modes of deportment: > "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he > understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he > understands it. > > In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, > standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a > specific practice for developing mindfulness. > > I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind > of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and > can take place at any time, I think. > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special > activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 > anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. > > Jon 46351 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristic of karuna - reaching out to help? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - What a beautiful story, Phil. And beautifully related. Nothing I have experienced brings more pleasure to me than witnessing beings (people, usually ;-) expressing genuine love and compassion, except perhaps the joy arising from a genuine outpouring of love and compassion in myself. It makes life worth living. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/4/05 9:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all I'd like to tell you a little story that has had me thinking about the characteristic of karuna. One Sunday morning a few weeks back I was walking around Tokyo as I do every week before work. I was watching some baseball games in an enclosed area of a park, then realized that I couldn't get out without going all the way back. I was in danger of being late for work so I decided to climb a fence to get out. It was one of those black cast-iron fences with the nasty spikes. I got up on top of it and paused, because there were people coming along the sidewalk on the other side and I didn't want to startle them. So I kind of perched up there on top of the fence, playing it cool, as though everything was A -Ok. In fact, I now realized that I was going to have more trouble getting down on the other side than I thought. The people came along and I perched there, faking nonchalance. There was an elderly woman, around 80 I guess, walking her dog. And when she saw me she gasped with concern, and then - amazingly - reached out her hand to offer to help me down. This is in Japan, where there is a lot of fear of foreigners, but this little old lady reached out her hand to help me, as though I wouldn't just crush her into the ground if I took her offer. That moment of reaching out to help, with no consideration of the logic of it, or the danger involved in it - it made me wonder if it was very pure karuna. (No way to know the other's citta - maybe she was a masochistic little old lady who had been fantasizing for years about being crushed by a plummeting foreigner.) So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? I remember Howard once said that he thought karuna is called for in certain situations but metta is called for in all situations - that has stuck with me. I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. Metta, Phil /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46352 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/4/05 11:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. ========================= Had I been more tactful, I might have chosen the far more generous words 'steadfast' and 'intransigent' instead! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46353 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Howard (and Jon, James) - Howard: > Had I been more tactful, I might have chosen the far more generous > words 'steadfast' and 'intransigent' instead! ;-) > I like 'intransigent' better -- it means "refusing to yield or compromise", while 'steadfast' simply means "unwavering, faithful" or "firmly fixed". BTW: I appreciate your reply to my questions in the "Useful Sutta" thread. I have a Thai translation of this sutta to compare withThanissaro's translation, and it is clear to me that his translation of the key paragraph was not clear enough. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation was nearly the same as the Thai translation, except for one thing, and I have a plan to translate that key part of the Thai version into English for comparison with both Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's -- hoping that we may learn something useful. The translation has not yet started, though. That's why I have not reponded to your message so far. Please accept my apology. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 6/4/05 11:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not > said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. 46354 From: connie Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 9:05am Subject: Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution nichiconn Hi, Tep, Just some notes on the 10th of the 16 kinds of (sequential) knowledge taken from Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification & the Insight Knowledges". peace, connie 10. pa.tisankhaanupassanaa~naa.na (knowledge of contemplation of reflection or reflective insight) - '18 principal insights'* & 40 modes of reflection across tilakkhana disperse defilements by substitution of opposites. "Whatever there is to be done to win deliverance from existence, all that I will do." *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: Anicca: 1, 6, 8-11, 14 Dukkha: 2,4,5,12,16 Anatta: 3,7,13,15,17,18 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping 8. khayaanupassanaa - (destruction) ab's perception of compactness 9. vayaanupassanaa - (passing away) ab's accumulation (of kamma) 10. vipari.naamaa-n. - (change) ab's percptn of stability 11. animittaa-n. - (signless) ab's the sign 12. appa.nihitaanupassanaa - (desireless) ab's desire 13. su~n~nataatnupassanaa - (voidness) ab's adherence (to notion of self) 14. adhipa~n~naa-vipassanaa - (higher wisdom of insight into phenomena) ab's adherence due to grasping at a core 15. yathaabhuuta-~naa.nadassana - (correct kn. & vision) ab's adherence due to confusion 16. aadinavaanupassanaa - (danger) abandons adherence due to attachment 17. pat.isankhaa-nupassanaa - (reflection) ab's non-reflection 18. viva.t.taa-nupassanaa - (turning away) ab's adherence due to bondage 46355 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/4/05 12:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: BTW: I appreciate your reply to my questions in the "Useful Sutta" thread. I have a Thai translation of this sutta to compare withThanissaro's translation, and it is clear to me that his translation of the key paragraph was not clear enough. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation was nearly the same as the Thai translation, except for one thing, and I have a plan to translate that key part of the Thai version into English for comparison with both Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's -- hoping that we may learn something useful. The translation has not yet started, though. That's why I have not reponded to your message so far. Please accept my apology. ---------------------------------- Howard: Certainly no apology needed! ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46356 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:43am Subject: Who is Strong? upasaka_howard Hi, all - A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": "Who is strong?" "He who controls his passions" This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must take to heart. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46357 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 10:40am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "The sign is not just a physical location where the breaths touch. When sati is established at the touch point, you will be aware of the contact (phassa) and associated sensation quite clearly. At that time "the sign" is no longer a concept anymore-- you can experience it. And all the time awareness of the in and out breaths is also present. When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction." Hi Tep, I agree the sign is not a physical location. The sign is the consciousness of a rupa that is interpreted as a physical location. To expand on this a little, this is not just one rupa, but many various rupas taken as one. First, it is a group (kalapa) composed of hardness (earth), pressure (air/wind), temperature (fire), cohesion (water), and limits (space). These arise as separate objects of consciousness over time and accumulate, mentally, into an identifiable object, the tip of the nostrils or space just above the lips that is experienced as a somewhat compact whole. This is a physical experience but it is married to a concept. I'm not sure how this would change into a counterpart sign. Also included here as possible objects of consciousness are the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment. The breaths are consciousnesses of rupas interpreted as breaths and these rupas include the above without life and body door, but possibly including sound and possibly lightness, malleability, and wieldiness. All these "breath" rupas are experienced in conjunction with the above rupas associated with the body door and other body door rupas. Every one of these rupas is potentially a sign of a greater phenomenon (concept) if cognized and interpreted that way. Or, they could simply be experienced as they arise with understanding but without further elaboration. I like this line, good point: Tep: "When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction." Larry 46358 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and Phil and others - My translation of the Thai version of SN XXXV.95, Malunkyaputta Sutta, is shown below for comparison purpose. Thanissaro's Translation: ------------------------------------- (I) "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" (II) "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Bodhi's Translation: --------------------- (I) "Do you have any desire lust or affection for those forms cognizable by the eye that you have not seen and never saw before, that you do not see and would not think might be seen?" Phil, could you please give me Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation for (II)? The Thai Version: ------------------ (I) "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that you no longer see, that you have never seen before, that you don't see right now, and that you are not aware that 'I am seeing' : Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" (II) "In all the dhammas, when there will be just seeing in reference to the seen, just hearing in reference to the heard, just sensing in reference to the sensed, only cognizing in reference to the cognized, then, in that moment you will not be soaked by desire(raga), attacked by aversion(dosa), or deluded by delusion(moha). When there are no no desire, aversion or delusion, then, in that moment you will not cling to the seen, the heard, the sensed, and the cognized. Malunkyaputta, then you are neither here nor in any world yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Howard's summary --------------------------- The foregoing pertains to dhammas "cognizable via a sense door that are unobserved by one that one has never before observed, that one doesn't observe, and that are not to be observed by one, and for these there is no desire or passion or love there". Howard's Analysis --------------------------- I) Since the dhammas are *not* experienced (and may well not have occurred at all, but just be *able* to be cognized *were* conditions for their arising or observation in place). It is the realm of such non-occurring or at least unobserved phenomena that I referred to as the non-occurring realm. II) Maintaining mindfulness is the means of avoiding getting hooked by contacts via any of the sense doors. In the seen there shall just be the seen - there being nothing substantial and knowable that underlies the phenomenal object, and no self to be found underlying the knowing. Tep: I appreciate your precise understanding that underlies the above analysis. The difficulty is seen in successful implementation in the present moment. What do you think of the Thai version? (Anyone, please?) Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Howard and all > > Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I > must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. > >I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, > addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. > (snipped) > > I hope other people will pass along suttas that they think are very > valuable. > > Metta, > Phil 46359 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:15am Subject: Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Connie - Thank you for the contribution to the Breathing Treatise series. Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's English translation of the 18 Principal Insights is a good one. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, Tep, > Just some notes on the 10th of the 16 kinds of (sequential) knowledge > taken from Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification & > the Insight Knowledges". > peace, > connie > > 10. pa.tisankhaanupassanaa~naa.na (knowledge of contemplation of > reflection or reflective insight) - '18 principal insights'* & 40 modes of > reflection across tilakkhana disperse defilements by substitution of > opposites. "Whatever there is to be done to win deliverance from > existence, all that I will do." > > *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: > Anicca: 1, 6, 8-11, 14 > Dukkha: 2,4,5,12,16 > Anatta: 3,7,13,15,17,18 > 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence > 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure > 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self > 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting > 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust > 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating > 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping > 8. khayaanupassanaa - (destruction) ab's perception of compactness > 9. vayaanupassanaa - (passing away) ab's accumulation (of kamma) > 10. vipari.naamaa-n. - (change) ab's percptn of stability > 11. animittaa-n. - (signless) ab's the sign > 12. appa.nihitaanupassanaa - (desireless) ab's desire > 13. su~n~nataatnupassanaa - (voidness) ab's adherence (to notion of self) > 14. adhipa~n~naa-vipassanaa - (higher wisdom of insight into phenomena) > ab's adherence due to grasping at a core > 15. yathaabhuuta-~naa.nadassana - (correct kn. & vision) ab's adherence > due to confusion > 16. aadinavaanupassanaa - (danger) abandons adherence due to attachment > 17. pat.isankhaa-nupassanaa - (reflection) ab's non-reflection > 18. viva.t.taa-nupassanaa - (turning away) ab's adherence due to bondage 46360 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:29am Subject: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi All, During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. From Nibbana.com: Asannasatta Brahmas Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. http://www.nibbana.com/ James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings without minds. Any answers, anyone? Metta, James 46361 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for the prompt reply. Larry: > > The breaths are consciousnesses of rupas interpreted as breaths and these rupas include the above without life and body door, but > possibly including sound and possibly lightness, malleability, and > wieldiness. All these "breath" rupas are experienced in conjunction > with the above rupas associated with the body door and other body door rupas. > > Every one of these rupas is potentially a sign of a greater > phenomenon (concept) if cognized and interpreted that way. Or, they could simply be experienced as they arise with understanding but > without further elaboration. > Tep: My limited experience of the consciousness of rupas ("breaths") involves only a few items in the long list you have given. Some of the items, e.g. cohesion(water), limits (space), the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment, are very much "theoretical" to me now. How are they experienced and during which steps (grounds, vatthu) of the Anapanasati meditation do they arise? The mentioning that these rupas may " change into a counterpart sign" is very interesting. Can you give some more clues? Did you get the idea from reading or from your own experience? Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I agree the sign is not a physical location. The sign is the > consciousness of a rupa that is interpreted as a physical location. > To expand on this a little, this is not just one rupa, but many > various rupas taken as one. First, it is a group (kalapa) composed of > hardness (earth), pressure (air/wind), temperature (fire), cohesion > (water), and limits (space). These arise as separate objects of > consciousness over time and accumulate, mentally, into an > identifiable object, the tip of the nostrils or space just above the > lips that is experienced as a somewhat compact whole. This is a > physical experience but it is married to a concept. I'm not sure how > this would change into a counterpart sign. Also included here as > possible objects of consciousness are the life rupa, the body door > rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment. > I like this line, good point: > > Tep: "When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a > single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that > there is no distraction." > > > > Larry 46362 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Golden Statues? upasaka_howard Hi, James - Just a couple thoughts occurred to me about this matter which I will insert in context below. In a message dated 6/4/05 2:29:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi All, During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. From Nibbana.com: Asannasatta Brahmas Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. http://www.nibbana.com/ ----------------------------------------- Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. --------------------------------------- James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? --------------------------------------- Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. -------------------------------------- I can imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings without minds. Any answers, anyone? ------------------------------------ Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? ----------------------------------- Metta, James ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46363 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution nilovg Dear Tep, please thank han tun. It is very good he gives the Pali. Does he also have the Commentary? Nina. op 04-06-2005 14:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, > Part 2 [Message # 997] > 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa > 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa > 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 46364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Howard, Yes, you clarified it all right. I had an idea that you meant something else with this phrase, since you are among the kindest people around here. Nina. op 04-06-2005 16:56 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I believe as well that there is no insincerity here whatsoever! I retract > the phrase 'hidden agenda' - it was a very poor choice! I hope my > explanations above clarified my intention. 46365 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Following the Howard's tradition, today I have two valuable suttas to recommend. (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html (2) There are some among us who promote listening to and considering the Dhamma a lot without even 10 minutes a day for meditation. Well, according to the Buddha , you do not "dwell in the Dhamma" if you neglect seclusion and do not "commit" yourselves to "internal tranquility of awareness". Read on ! "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". Anguttara Nikaya V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Yours truly, Tep ========= 46366 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/4/05 5:23:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, all - Following the Howard's tradition, today I have two valuable suttas to recommend. (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html (2) There are some among us who promote listening to and considering the Dhamma a lot without even 10 minutes a day for meditation. Well, according to the Buddha , you do not "dwell in the Dhamma" if you neglect seclusion and do not "commit" yourselves to "internal tranquility of awareness". Read on ! "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". Anguttara Nikaya V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Yours truly, Tep ============================= I'm quite familiar with this sutta. There was a group, an offshoot of the Sarvastivadins I think, a few hundred years after the Buddha who took this a basis for a heretical self-view. I think that the author of the Katthavatthu may have discussed this. The "person" of this sutta is the conventional person, and no one denies such usage. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46367 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! dacostacharles Hi all, Sorry for missing this. The point I was tiring to make was about definitions, those during the Buddha's time compared with those of the today. E.g. in the Buddha's day the soul was considered to be a being's eternal unchanging essence, and it got reincarnated from life to life. The Buddha argued against its existence because it could not be found via the six senses. Today this definition is only partially common. CharlesD From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 25 May, 2005 00:58 Subject: [dsg] Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth!arguments were based on the observat ----- Original Message ----- Hi Charles {Attn.: Htoo, Sarah } - I have a thought while reading your remarks on Anatta (from Anattalakkhana Sutta, SN XXII.59). CharlesD : The problem with this suttra, and most like it, is that it assumes that if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being. Those that believe in a soul do not believe the soul has such, they tend to view the soul the same way that some Buddhist view re-birth-consciousness. Tep: I am not so sure that the Buddha said in SN XXII.59 that "if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being", Charles. This is what He said about the form (rupa): "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' " The same Truth applies to the other 4 aggregates within the pancakkhandha. 46368 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self dacostacharles Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) , according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46369 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "My limited experience of the consciousness of rupas ("breaths") involves only a few items in the long list you have given. Some of the items, e.g. cohesion(water), limits (space), the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment, are very much "theoretical" to me now. How are they experienced and during which steps (grounds, vatthu) of the Anapanasati meditation do they arise? The mentioning that these rupas may " change into a counterpart sign" is very interesting. Can you give some more clues? Did you get the idea from reading or from your own experience?" Hi Tep, I'm sure you have experienced all these rupas, if only vaguely, and you could, if you applied yourself, locate them in breathing. They are, after all, what breathing is all about. But I agree there is no direct reference to them in this treatise on breathing. This kind of analysis is the same as discriminating between sign, in-breath, and out-breath, only with more detail. And it explores, a little, the relationship between concept and reality as it manifests in mindfulness of breathing. My uncertainty on the counterpart sign comes from the Visuddhimagga. In jhana practise, the counterpart sign arises with access concentration and is an ideal perception without the characteristics of rise and fall or individuating characteristics such as long and short. Before that there is only the learning sign which is cognized with 5-door consciousness. I think that is what this treatise is talking about, but maybe the precise point where the saw touches the log, so to speak, and in and out disappear could be idealized into a counterpart sign and momentary access concentration could arise. Not sure. Larry 46370 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Vism.XIV,164 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 164. (xli) By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is 'wrong view'. Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. Its function is to preassume. It is manifested as wrong interpreting. Its proximate cause is unwillingness to see noble ones, and so on. It should be regarded as the most reprehensible of all. 46371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I forwarded your email to Han Tun this morning, asking him to reply directly to you. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > please thank han tun. It is very good he gives the Pali. > Does he also have the Commentary? > Nina. > op 04-06-2005 14:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > From: han tun > > Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am > > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, > > Part 2 [Message # 997] > > > 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa > > 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa > > 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 46372 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that > has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. > From Nibbana.com: > > Asannasatta Brahmas > Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any > consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta > (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise > because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had > there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of > consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop > a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). > When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta > Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or > reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. > http://www.nibbana.com/ > > James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist > texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's > next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness > whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can > imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings > without minds. Any answers, anyone? > > Metta, > James Dear james, Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in another plane where citta arises again. Robertk 46373 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi Howard, Thanks for the response. I have a few more comments: Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. James: Yes, that's true, but 500 kappas is still a very long time to be existing without a mind. Without a mind there would be no clinging and desire, etc. so I still wonder what is present holding the body together. The Buddha described mind and form as like reeds leaning on each other for support, without a mind the body should break down into the four elements. Very odd. Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. James: I can understand and accept how kamma could kick-start the being's new existence, but that doesn't answer for me where the citta is in the meantime. The citta is supposed to be missing! Where did it go? I recall a sutta where Mara is searching about the recently dead body of a monk looking for the unestablished consciousness and the Buddha said the consciousness couldn't be found because it had been released into final nibbana; therefore, consciousnesses don't just go disappearing and reappearing in samsara. Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) James: Yes, I have been under deep anesthesia for surgery. I don't have a hard time imagining what it would be like for this type of being- it would be like nothing. I guess it would be like Rip Van Winkle: One second you are there and the next second it is 500 kalpas later! ;-)) What I have difficulty with is the idea of a body without a consciousness existing for that amount of time. Howard: By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? James: Yes. I have long maintained that final nibbana could not be annihilation. But that is a different can of worms. ;-) Metta, James 46374 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi Robert K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear james, > Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as > asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the > kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in > another plane where citta arises again. > Robertk The description I quoted stated that the consciousness (citta) was gone; are you maintaining that this material is wrong? That the citta is merely suppressed? What does it mean for the citta to be suppressed? Metta, James 46375 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear james, > > Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as > > asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the > > kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in > > another plane where citta arises again. > > Robertk > > The description I quoted stated that the consciousness (citta) was > gone; are you maintaining that this material is wrong? That the citta > is merely suppressed? What does it mean for the citta to be suppressed? > > Metta, > James Dear James, I said it does not arise, thus it is not there at all for that period. But it is entirely different from khandha paribnibbana where there are no conditions for consciousness to ever arise again. For us in the human plane now citta arises for an instant and then is completely gone. However, another citta immediately rearises because there are conditions for this to happen. Even when we are unconscious or just an embryo in the womb citta keeps arising and passing. It is different in the asannatta plane. No conditions for citta to arise. Robertk 46376 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very important issue. In an earlier post you had said: "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention?" Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. As I said in my previous reply, in my view, directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. You also said: "How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought?" Again, this can be done, but it is clearly not the same thing as awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which in this case would be the dhamma(s) that is/are 'lost in thought' (i.e., consciousness accompanied by lobha and/or moha with thoughts as object). The idea, which I think is implicit in your comment, that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. Now for the comments in your latest post. upasaka@... wrote: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same >as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes >down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis >voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist >"practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it >harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so >wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) > > You mention volitional action, and I believe this is key to your view of what 'Buddhist practice' is all about (and of course it goes hand in hand with the idea discussed above that insight is more likely to arise when the preceding consciousness is kusala). As I recall, however, you have in the past acknowledged that kusala, including insight, *can* arise without the undertaking of any kind of volitional action immediately before that arising. That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. Now this is not the same as saying that the arising of kusala is 'random' or 'determined'. No kusala can arise unless the conditions for its arising have been developed in the past (and in addition other necessary conditions are present). But the actual moment of its arising may or may not be preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. If that is so, then we should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Jon 46377 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James Thanks for a restrained (in James terms) response to my post which I'm sure you would have found provocative in parts. It's good to be able to follow a dialogue along with you ;-)) buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Jon: I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference >between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the >arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to >the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential >difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). > >James: Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word >`conducive'. From dictionary.com: "conducive adj : tending to bring >about; being partly responsible for". Therefore, `necessary' and >`conducive' are two entirely different meanings. There is no >reasonable explanation as to why you can't see the difference between >the two meanings. Consider the matter more deeply and get back to me >if you wish. > > Let me explain what I had in mind. The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that action with the idea that insight will result or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. >Jon: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness >of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep >reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 >sections (feeling,consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be >'practised'? > >James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a >bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I >aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand >aspirations! ;-) > I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this lifetime). However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to hear more on your thinking about this. >Jon: As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it >is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the >sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case >of mindfulness of breathing). > >James: Hmmm…you're going to hang quite a lot on that `one way' >translation/interpretation of the introduction, even though there are >many disagreements, aren't you? Well, I'm not going to touch that. >Think what you wish. > > Well I didn't realise this was a controversial area. If it's too hot, we can drop it. Jon 46378 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there any 'tool' ? [ was Walking Meditation ] jonoabb Hi Tep Many thanks for this post. I can see that a lot of care and attention has gone into it. I think the crux of the issue is contained in your comments on the passage from MN 39 (Maha-Assapura Sutta, Greater Discourse at Assapura), so I will go straight to that part. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with clear awareness..[endquote] It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, can be read in either of those 2 ways. I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, <>, and the list of activities that follows as being an elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is preferred. But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? Jon PS Thanks for the many quotes and citations in your post. I think we are both interested in the same suttas, but our difference is one of interpretation. Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, >and other interested members} - > > >I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main >question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: >i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for >development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon >already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it >is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based >on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). >... > >Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using >in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article >#172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath >is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of >out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established >(founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in >him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to >train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using >body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- >sampajanna in the "training exercises". > >Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points >clear. Tell me what you think. > > >Respectfully yours, > > > >Tep > > 46379 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:06am Subject: Clinging => Becoming => Birth ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Evan Stamatopoulos & friends: Thanx for these good & exact questions! >1: How is becoming caused by clinging ? >and >2: How do becoming cause birth? _Regarding clinging => becoming:_ Becoming is the process of new arisings of discrete conscious moments. Every conscious moment is conditioned by the prior conscious moment... What property in the prior conscious moment causes the next to arise ? Clinging is the answer ! Clinging propagates the arising of a new state ! Clinging to what ? Clinging to be able to sense, Clinging to the idea of a 'same lasting personality: Me, I...' Clinging to having a body (internal form), Clinging to the forms of the external world, Clinging to be able to feel, Clinging to be able to experience, Clinging to be able to act, speak & think, Clinging to _being Conscious... _Clinging to various views, Clinging to rules & rituals... When no such clinging is present in the present conscious moment, no new conscious moment will arise nor become established on any object. The process of becoming is hereby stopped. This itself is Nibbana...!!! _How do becoming cause birth? _What is birth but the arising of a new conscious moment, yet now established in a new form, in a new body... If in the moment of death any of these above mentioned Clingings is present, then they will enforce & propagate - as fuel do fire - a new emergence of a conscious moment: This is the momentary 'birth' of a new momentary mental state! In analogy of the wave/particle duality of matter & light, consciousness will here attain it's non-local = global = wave characteristics and (quantum) jump into a 'form-embedding' fittings it's other kammic properties. Name-&-Form is here joined & fused! So the process is almost the same from moment to moment in this life and from moment to moment in between lives... We are thus 'reborn' in every moment so to speak, which naturally completely excludes any 'identical identity' remaining in existence, neither here nor there ... Its just a noisy flux of moments passing by ... : - ] Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. 46380 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:08am Subject: The Proximate Cause of Nibbana ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Transcendence from Ignorance to Nibbâna!!!: Ignorance is the proximate cause of mental construction. Mental construction is the proximate cause of consciousness. Consciousness is the proximate cause of name-&-form. Name-&-form is the proximate cause of the 6 senses. The 6 senses is the proximate cause of contact. Contact is the proximate cause of feeling. Feeling is the proximate cause of craving. Craving is the proximate cause of clinging. Clinging is the proximate cause of becoming. Becoming is the proximate cause of birth. Birth is the proximate cause of ageing, decay & death. Ageing, decay & death is the proximate cause suffering. Suffering is the proximate cause of faith. Faith is the proximate cause of elation. Elation is the proximate cause of joy. Joy is the proximate cause of calmness. Calmness is the proximate cause of happiness. Happiness is the proximate cause of concentration. Concentration is the proximate cause of seeing & knowing reality. Seeing & knowing reality is the proximate cause of disgust. Disgust is the proximate cause of disillusion. Disillusion is the proximate cause of mental release. Mental release is the proximate cause of ending all mental fermentation linked with ignorance, with becoming, & with sensing. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Freedom.. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Peace.. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Bliss.. This - only this - is Nibbana ... __________________________________________________ Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 29-32 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46381 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Howdy, Phil, There's no doubt that reading and/or hearing dhamma are crucial to development of understanding. This is a good topic for discussion. I'm going to snip parts of your post and focus in on just a few points. Please forgive me if I miss your point by gratuitous snipping. > We are worldlings who do not have the insight that penetrates the > words to get at the realities beneath, yet, so we must start with > the words. You are absolutely right that we worldlings have not developed the penetrating insight that characterizes the enlightened, and that we rely on a framework of words and concepts before that depth of insight can be reached. But we simply do not start with the words. When Dhamma falls on ears with zero understanding, it sounds absurd and elicits stunned disbelief and dirisive laughter. For the words to make any sense or seem the least bit attractive, there must already be rudimentary understanding derived from experience. The words then help consolidate that understanding so that subsequent moments of insight may penetrate deeper because moha doesn't rush in quite so dramatically in the aftermath. > I ahve been hearing a lot in the recorded talks about how we must > get our nose out of the book and reflect on the realities that the > book is listing or describing. Jon described very nicely how rare it > is that we recall that what we are reading about our realities, but > that it is easier in discussion, especially with a Dhamma friend > like Kh Sujin who keeps bringing us back to the realities. Right. One danger of nose-in-book is that the mind so delights in building conceptual elaborations (papañca) that when left to our own devices, lobha leads us happily and obliviously into a vast thicket of theory (brahmajala). [And there are many dangers besides this.] > "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we > must have that first. I wonder...is it better to strive diligently to build conceptual frameworks that we hope will one day, by chance, be good descriptions of our understanding, or to keep the focus on reality by trying to describe our current understanding and experience of reality? I think Kh. Sujin is right to keep bringing us back to experience and providing a check against our penchant for speculative elaborations. > There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what > pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are > reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable > know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long > list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or > whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult and > fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. She's right, and I'm glad to hear it. > Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think > about understanding realities directly before understanding them > intellectually. When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual understanding", but the reality is "moha". > And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent > most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) > to lead us toward direct understanding. My goodness, Phil! You seem to have acquired a bit of an edge in the months I've been away... Two notions: 1. Until we have heard the words of the Buddha, we are totally ignorant, utterly devoid of any insight into any reality, and have no understanding of any characteristics of the mind. Then, we hear the words of the Buddha; cogitate, speculate, and proliferate in and about his conceptualizations for years and years; and then, once the conceptual scheme is well-developed enough, we are able to transcend it for a moment of direct insight into, say, the fleeting nature of citta. 2. Before we have heard the words of the Buddha, we are not totally ignorant. If we have some insight into, say, the degree to which our lives are dominated by akusala or the futility of seeking real peace, real joy through devotion to lobha, then something about the words of the Buddha may ring true. Previously, our wisdom was weak and fleeting, but the Buddha's words and conceptual schemes help put our wisdom on firmer ground, setting the foundation for deeper insight. Without the Buddha's conceptual scheme, it is not possible to develop liberating insight. However, before hearing Buddha, moha only arises 99.9990% of the time, not 100%. [NOTE: After hearing Buddha, moha might only arise 99.9989% of the time, and we'd feel enormously grateful for that 0.0001% improvement. However, it is equally likely that moha would still have a 99.9990% grip on us, or even a 99.9991% grip if we read them in the wrong way.] I'm more inclined to go with the latter, not out of disrespect for the Buddha, but because: i. I've meant so many people who have never heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper insight into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; ii. it rings more true to experience; and iii. it helps dissolve "WE-are-the-only- ones-who-know-ANYTHING" as a pillar of bigotry. > I've come to FEEL that when > Kh Sujin tells us to know realities directly by their > characteristics, without words, she is exercising a middle-way nudge > away from the bank of intellectual clinging, for moments later in > the same talk you'll hear her say "the more we read, the more we > understand anatta" and other affirmations that proper intellectual > understanding must precede direct knowing. "The more we read, the more we understand anatta" is not an affirmation that intellectual understanding must precede direct knowing. It could mean, "the more we read, the more we [intellectually] understand anatta", or "the more we read, the more our understanding of anatta is solidified," or "the more we read, the more our false notions of anatta are shattered" or "the more we read, the more we are able to see how our rudimentary direct understanding of anatta fits into the Buddha's conceptual scheme", or... > It reminds me (as so much > in Dhamma reminds me) of the gentle paradox of the crossing the > flood sutta. (When I pressed ahead I was swept away, but when I > stayed in place, I sank.) > > I used to think this was contradictory, but now I think these > paradoxes are helpful and keep our minds flexible/elastic and with > more capacity for truth. > >How can grasping at a concept and > > trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what > > things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right > > Understanding? > > There is a difference between grasping and soaking it in > patiently. We don't have to struggle hard to get things. I listen to > the same talk many times as the weeks go by and let difficult ideas > roll right on by again and again. But every time I listen to a talk > there might be something new that understanding is able to embrace - > and then let go again. Great way to put it, Phil. As you listen to the words over and over, you have a framework on which hang understanding when it arises. When it does arise, you embrace it. > But that brief embrace conditions more > understanding later. Yup. > For example, I wasn't actually interested in knowing more about > motion, but my attention (and irritation) was caught by Kh Sujin's > suggestion that Azita wouldn't know unless she knew the > characteristic. I thought that there would be concise, conceptual > descriptions of the ways in which the reality of motion is > manifested, its characteristics, functions etc. And I thought that > Kh Sujin could have shared one of them - briefly - with Azita, even > as she reminded her that these were just words and the direct > understanding of the characteristic was the only thing that would > matter. (I thought afterwards that Kh Sujin might know the chance to > discuss is rare, and that we can do our book studying at some other > time, so she chooses to avoid too much citing and references) Kh. Sujin was speaking to Azita. Maybe she would have spoken differently to you. > Anyways, I decided to look up motion. I checked Nina's book on > Rupas, and found some helpful words. For example, when we feel > pressure in our stomach after eating it would be motion. I was > reminded that the four elements always rise together. In Bh Bodhi's > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was > helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh > Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of > conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper > understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of > hungering for sati? Less likely, I think - we know better than that > pretty early on, don't we? Or it could have planted a seed of contentment: "Ah, thanks. Now I understand motion." Or it could be that the conceptual understanding "experienced as tangible pressure" is meaningless unless it has been derived from experience. Even worse than meaningless, though, it might well plant a seed of hungering for sati. > The day before yesterday I was sitting on my balcony with my > morning coffee and some suttas. A mother carrying a toddler on the > back of her bicycle whizzed by. The child said "I'm cold!" and PING > I had a little understanding of motion. The temperature element and > the motion element were there together. And then I let it go. Until > now. FOr what it's worth, it was conditioned by what I read in the > book about motion being "experienced as tangible pressure." Now I > have a deeper understanding of what goes on when we feel cold - it > is pressure (motion) as well as temperature. It will arise again, > and graudaly panna will come to know whether it is valuable or not. Good story (meaning "I like it"). > Ph: I still get irritated by [Sujin] on occasion, but I get irritated > by everyone. I have accumulations in that direction. > > The other day I was jogging as I listened and I got *really* > irritated when Sarah was asking about immoral deeds, and Kh Sujin > said that there is "no need to write them down" (ie list) them, and > then suddenly said "I think we should walk now" and cut off the > conversation. I shouted "no SHOULD!" which is one of her favourite > lines. I have never studied Dhamma under a teacher so there are > times I get irritated by the dynamics involved. But man oh man am I > being helped by her, day in, day out. The moments of irritation are > few and far between. Like most words, "should" has different meanings. Kh. Sujin's "no SHOULD" means that making rules about how to behave "I should do this; I should not do that" is of no help whatsoever in the development of understanding. But to stay dry, one should stay out of the rain. Whether a "should" makes sense depends on the goal. > p.s Thanks for asking about my eyes. The terminal is now, and much > bigger and brighter than our old computer. My eyelid flutters and > twitches. Glasses are cheap here in Japan. I will get around to it, > eventually. Foolish not too - I'm legally blind in my left eye and > my right eye is weak too. Glasses may be cheap in Japan, but the cost to eyes of a bad terminal is the same whether you are in Japan, North America, Australia, or Timbuktu. Do take care of your eyes, whatever it takes. Metta, Dan 46382 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Golden Statues? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/4/05 11:29:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for the response. I have a few more comments: Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. James: Yes, that's true, but 500 kappas is still a very long time to be existing without a mind. Without a mind there would be no clinging and desire, etc. so I still wonder what is present holding the body together. The Buddha described mind and form as like reeds leaning on each other for support, without a mind the body should break down into the four elements. Very odd. ------------------------------------------ Howard: From my phenomenalist perspective, this presents no problem. That 500 kappas is with respect to other mindstreams. For the mindstream in question, no time at all goes by. One moment there is the end of a life, and the very next moment everything is radically different (500 kappas different). That transition is possibly recognized after the fact as a blip in consciousness (with neither knowing nor known) and no time at all has elapsed. It is only afterwards that there *might* be the realization expressed by "Hey! What just happened?" ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. James: I can understand and accept how kamma could kick-start the being's new existence, but that doesn't answer for me where the citta is in the meantime. ----------------------------------------- Howard: For the mindstream in question, there is no "meantime". Only for others was there. The "break" amounts to a disruption of the shared experience among mindstreams, a disruption of the inter-subjectivity. ----------------------------------------- The citta is supposed to be missing! Where did it go? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Nowhere. (No time!) ------------------------------------------- I recall a sutta where Mara is searching about the recently dead body of a monk looking for the unestablished consciousness and the Buddha said the consciousness couldn't be found because it had been released into final nibbana; therefore, consciousnesses don't just go disappearing and reappearing in samsara. Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) James: Yes, I have been under deep anesthesia for surgery. I don't have a hard time imagining what it would be like for this type of being- it would be like nothing. I guess it would be like Rip Van Winkle: One second you are there and the next second it is 500 kalpas later! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! ------------------------------------------ What I have difficulty with is the idea of a body without a consciousness existing for that amount of time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: There was, for that mindstream, no experience and no time. Without experience or time, there is neither mentality nor materiality nor the time for either of them. Imagine a film in which there is a break in content, but otherwise complete continuity. For the mindstream involved, that would be the reality. For others, the film seen is not the same film. That is the real break - an experiential separation: a separation among mindstreams that are usually integrated. ---------------------------------------- Howard: By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? James: Yes. I have long maintained that final nibbana could not be annihilation. But that is a different can of worms. ;-) Metta, James ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46383 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/5/05 5:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very important issue. In an earlier post you had said: "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention?" Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly there is a difference between awareness of dhammas, which occurs al the time, and awareness with insight/clear comprehension. If it is that distinction you are making, then we agree. ------------------------------------------- As I said in my previous reply, in my view, directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Directed atention to a single doorway fosters concentration. But I consider most important directed attention to being clear in one's awareness, clear and calm, avoding distreaction, getting lost in thought or desire. ----------------------------------------- You also said: "How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought?" Again, this can be done, but it is clearly not the same thing as awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which in this case would be the dhamma(s) that is/are 'lost in thought' (i.e., consciousness accompanied by lobha and/or moha with thoughts as object). ----------------------------------- Howard: You're right. It's not the same. It is a *cultivational process* that helps foster increased concentration, mindfulness, and insight. ------------------------------------ The idea, which I think is implicit in your comment, that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The idea is that one needs to pay close attention. Close attention and firmly and repeatedly bringing the mind back when attention a wavers fosters all the useful factors. -------------------------------------------- Now for the comments in your latest post. upasaka@... wrote: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same >as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes >down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis >voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist >"practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it >harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so >wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) > > You mention volitional action, and I believe this is key to your view of what 'Buddhist practice' is all about (and of course it goes hand in hand with the idea discussed above that insight is more likely to arise when the preceding consciousness is kusala). ---------------------------------------- Howard: All practice, even golf practice (!), is a matter of volition. ---------------------------------------- As I recall, however, you have in the past acknowledged that kusala, including insight, *can* arise without the undertaking of any kind of volitional action immediately before that arising. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Sure, due to prior cultivation. Bhavana is the key, and that requires volitional action. ---------------------------------------- That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly. There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetanba is the reality underlying conventional volition. ------------------------------------------ Now this is not the same as saying that the arising of kusala is 'random' or 'determined'. No kusala can arise unless the conditions for its arising have been developed in the past (and in addition other necessary conditions are present). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. And central among those conditions are Dhamma practice - past cultivation. And the cultivation of the present becomes the past cultivation of the future. No cultivation now, no yield in the future. -------------------------------------------- But the actual moment of its arising may or may not be preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: AGREED!!! ----------------------------------------- If that is so, then we should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Jon ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46384 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 6:54am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 212 - Zeal/chanda (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] When akusala citta arises, it is accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars” which are vitakka, vicåra, adhimokkha (except in the case of moha-múla-citta accompanied by vicikicchå, doubt), viriya and chanda (except in the case of the two types of moha-múla-citta which are not accompanied by chanda). It is accompanied by píti only when the feeling is pleasant feeling. It is also accompanied by cetasikas which arise only with akusala citta. The “universals” and the “particulars” are all akusala in this case. Cetanå, for example, “wills” akusala; vitakka “thinks” of the object in an unwholesome way; adhimokkha, if it arises, is convinced about the object which is the object of akusala citta; viriya supports the citta and accompanying cetasikas; píti, if it arises, takes an interest in the object; chanda, if it arises, needs the object, searches for it. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46385 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:04am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Jon (and Howard, among others) - I am going to discuss the points you made in message # 46376, even before reading Howard reply. Then I will read Howard's response to learn from it later. Your points that I like and want to respond to, if you don't mind, are as follows. 1. Yes, I (Jon) can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. ... directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. 2. Your comment (Howard's), that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. 3. Kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ... We should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA (volitional action) in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Tep's Reply ======= 1. No, they are not the same because we haven't got yatha-bhuta-nana- dassana yet. But we must always try to sharpen our knowledge and understanding by directed attention, which is accompanied by sati & sampajanna & viriya & samma-ditthi. The often we make such exertion the closer we will be to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, when sati becomes samma-sati and viriya turns into samma-vayamo with samma-ditthi leading the way. I also agree that "useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another" helps facilitate this convergence toward yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana. 2. My experience indicates that when I am fully aware of an object (arammana) there is sati-sampajanna, and there is no akusala. But when the mind is defiled by an akusala, awareness only arises after the defilement has subsided. So there is a time delay before awareness is back in control. Then I can meditate by citta-nupassana on the mind state (with the subsided defilement). The good news is : the more often I direct attention to practice citta-nupassana every now and then, the shorter the awareness-time-delay becomes. 3. How often does that non-premeditated/unprompted arising of kusala occur in comparison with the occurrence of kusala by means of VA? Further, is it possible for akusala to stop growing without our volitional action to abandon it? You apparently have forgotten the four right endeavours. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Howard > > The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, > was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd > like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very > important issue. > 46386 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? buddhistmedi... Hi , all DSG members - I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon: > Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, > can be read in either of those 2 ways. > > I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, > < aware.'>>, and the list of activities that follows as being an > elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness > and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. > > You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the > 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. > > Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general > understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is > preferred. > > But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those > readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? > > My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of > the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Many thanks for this post. I can see that a lot of care and attention > has gone into it. I think the crux of the issue is contained in your > comments on the passage from MN 39 (Maha-Assapura Sutta, Greater > Discourse at Assapura), so I will go straight to that part. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be > done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully > aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In > looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our > limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In > eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, > lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with > clear awareness..[endquote] > > It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are > expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that > these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and > sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without > taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective > moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point > will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (snipped) > Jon > > PS Thanks for the many quotes and citations in your post. I think we > are both interested in the same suttas, but our difference is one of > interpretation. > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, > >and other interested members} - > > > > > >I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main > >question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: > >i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for > >development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon > >already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it > >is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based > >on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). > >... > > > >Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using > >in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article > >#172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath > >is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of > >out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established > >(founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in > >him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to > >train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using > >body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- > >sampajanna in the "training exercises". > > > >Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points > >clear. Tell me what you think. > > > > > >Respectfully yours, > > > > > > > >Tep > > > > 46387 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Sarah - First of all, let me thank Sarah whose reply to my "seires of questions" (in the other post) shows consistency and broad knowledge gained from a lot of research. My deep appreciation goes to Nina's unsurpassed skill in seeing clearly the centerpoint of my questions. [Nina: This is Dhammachanda, zeal of Dhamma.] Knowing this fact makes it clear why what Sarah said is true [Sarah: Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that understanding.] Nina, I like the following quote from the Dispeller of Delusion very much. "Furthermore, one who effects zeal induces zeal; one effecting it continuously produces [zeal]. One who rouses it again when it has fallen due to some obstacle arouses it; one who keeps it continually on foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who brings it about with unhesitancy, with unreluctance and with unreservedness brings it into being." Gratefully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > Good questions from Tep. > I am glad Sarah answered them very clearly, I am just back. > I can add something at one point only. I put one addition at the end. > op 31-05-2005 09:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: (snipped) > Nina:Some addition, taken from Visuddhimagga studies: > We read in the Dispeller of Delusion² (Ch 8, 1401) in the section of > arousing right effort, about the arousing of chanda : One who rouses it again when it has fallen due to some obstacle ³ rouses it; > one who keeps it continually on foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who brings it about with unhesitancy, with > unreluctance and with unreservedness brings it into being.> > We are bound to meet obstacles in the development of vipassanaa, due to our defilements. But this text is a reminder not to loose courage, but to continue developing understanding of the realities that appear in daily life. It should be without hesitation, withour reluctance, without reserve, no matter whether the objects are pleasant or unpleasant, kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. This is the zeal of Dhamma, Dhammachanda.> > > Nina. 46388 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:44am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your discussion on the concept and reality in breathing meditation is very useful. Also, some observed and inferred mental factors that you have talked about, despite the fact that you are not so sure right now, are all good to know. Larry: > In jhana practise, the counterpart sign arises with access >concentration and is an ideal perception without the >characteristics of rise and fall or individuating characteristics >such as long and short. Before that there is only the learning sign >which is cognized with 5-door consciousness. I think that is what this >treatise is talking about, but maybe the precise point where the saw >touches the log, so to speak, and in and out disappear could be >idealized into a counterpart sign and momentary >access concentration could arise. Not sure. > Tep: I believe that as we continue to explore (through practicing) we'll find clearer answers. Please keep the discussion alive. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm sure you have experienced all these rupas, if only vaguely, and you > could, if you applied yourself, locate them in breathing. They are, > after all, what breathing is all about. But I agree there is no direct > reference to them in this treatise on breathing. This kind of analysis > is the same as discriminating between sign, in-breath, and out-breath, > only with more detail. And it explores, a little, the relationship > between concept and reality as it manifests in mindfulness of breathing. > My uncertainty on the counterpart sign comes from the Visuddhimagga. > Larry 46389 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:30am Subject: Mel Brooks upasaka_howard Hi, All - I think that Mel Brooks must be a lurker on DSG. I was just overhearing a segment of his silly film "Dracula: Dead and Loving It". Dracula's drone, Renfield (if that's the name) is thrown into a jail cell. There ensues the following dialogue: Guard: There! You shall remain here until you rot!! (He slams the cell door shut, and then immediately after the door is reopened by him.) Guard: Go! You may leave now! You are released for good behavior! Renfield: But, why? I was here for but a moment! Guard: Yes, but in that moment your behavior was very good! ;-)) ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, you said you like to hear our thoughts. I shall think aloud. op 05-06-2005 16:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully >> aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are >> expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that >> these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and >> sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without >> taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective >> moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. ---------- N: When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will take them for mine or self. If he focusses on each of his actions, it seems to me that there is mere concentration. There may be concentration with paññaa, concentration with ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha darkens the true nature of realities. I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. But this may happen without one realizing it, that is the danger. I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be such a surprise! Nina. 46391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dhamma zeal. nilovg Hi Tep, I also like it, I find it encouraging. At the same time it is good to remember that it is a cetasika, that it has the support of all the other sobhana cetasikas we learnt about in the Visuddhimagga study.Whenever I study one cetasika I like to remember also all the others that arise together, otherwise I would get a wrong picture. There is our inherent tendency to take realities for self. Even we deny the existence of self intellectually, this deeply accumulated tendency will find ways and means to operate, to be active in our words and actions. It arises with lobha, with clinging, it clings to a wrong interpretation of reality. Paññaa can detect all these akusala inclinations. But we have to be brave and sincere to recognize where we are wrong, to see that we do not understand much yet. Inspite of this the the development of the Path can go on gradually, and then we can say there is zeal of Dhamma, inspite of obstacles. But the obstacles have to be known. Nina. op 05-06-2005 17:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina, I like the following quote from the Dispeller of Delusion very > much. > > "Furthermore, one who effects zeal induces zeal; one effecting it > continuously produces [zeal]. One who rouses it again when it has > fallen due to some obstacle arouses it; one who keeps it continually on > foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who > brings it about with unhesitancy, with unreluctance and with > unreservedness brings it into being." 46392 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: Mel Brooks buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, All - > Guard: There! You shall remain here until you rot!! (He slams the cell > door shut, and then immediately after the door is reopened by him.) > Guard: Go! You may leave now! You are released for good behavior! > Renfield: But, why? I was here for but a moment! > Guard: Yes, but in that moment your behavior was very good! > > ;-)) > > ====================== > With metta, > Howard ;-)) Very cute and telling. Metta, James 46393 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mel Brooks upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/5/05 3:10:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: ;-)) Very cute and telling. ======================= Yes! You got it! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: Thanks for a restrained (in James terms) response to my post which I'm sure you would have found provocative in parts. James: Oh, when I first came to DSG I found this kind of stuff from you provocative- not as much anymore. Really, I find it to be a perversion of the dhamma and a sad attempt at shirking personal responsibility for achieving enlightenment, but not that provocative to me. Jon: It's good to be able to follow a dialogue along with you ;-)) James: Why? It doesn't change your mind, or my mind, one single bit- we just keep going round and round in circles. I wonder if we would both be better off going to Howard's house and watching Mel Brooks movies. ;-)) But, I will trudge forward and hope some good comes of it. Jon: The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that action with the idea that insight will result James: No, they are not both likely to do that. You are guessing and putting forth a subjective interpretation as fact. Even in the Buddha's time, when monks were given a meditation/reflection subject, they didn't automatically assume that attention to that subject was going to bring about insight. Sometimes they would go back to the Buddha for another subject because they thought the first one wasn't going to work. Jon, they do not believe in rituals just because they believe in the possible effectiveness of certain meditation subjects. Jon: or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. James: Well, again you are stating your personal opinion and there is no reason I should believe your personal opinion in this matter. You need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are stating and I will believe you. Jon: I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this lifetime). James: Good. Now, if you would just realize that the effort applied to practice is more or less directly proportional to the level of development, we would be in business! ;-)) Jon: However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to hear more on your thinking about this. James: I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the Satipatthana Sutta, the whole discourse, was addressed to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. The Buddha didn't give teachings like that to lay folk. Metta, James 46395 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina { and welcome every member!} - I am writing this email with your two messages # 46391 and #45982 in mind. Before giving you a reply, let me first summarize the related ideas in these two messages. Nina in #46391: -- "There is our inherent tendency to take realities for self. Even we deny the existence of self intellectually, this deeply accumulated tendency will find ways and means to operate, to be active in our words and actions. It arises with lobha, with clinging, it clings to a wrong interpretation of reality. -- "Pannaa can detect all these akusala inclinations. But we have to be brave and sincere to recognize where we are wrong, to see that we do not understand much yet. Nina in #46390: -- "When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will take them for mine or self. -- "There may be concentration with pannaa, concentration with ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha darkens the true nature of realities. -- "I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. Tep: Not surprisingly, the theme of "taking realities for self " with lobha and clinging is omnipresent again. And, of course, the cure for this affliction is panna, that is to realize that namas and rupas in the present moment are just conditioned dhammas, not mine, not 'I', not my self. I think every DSG member has already memorized all this. ----------------------- Nina: I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be such a surprise! Tep: I know this recurring theme will no longer be just the recitation of worldlings, if and when they attain Stream-entry and higher. But it is also clear that such a recitation, even with many years of pariyatti, is not adequate without strongly committed patipatti. Both pariyatti and patipatti can lead one to pativedha, i.e. realization of the truth of the Dhamma. Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining are insufficient, according to the Buddha in AN V.73 : Dhamma-viharin Sutta. We must not neglect seclusion (viveka) and commit ourselves to internal tranquillity of awareness. With vipassana yoked with viveka and samatha, I have no doubt whatsoever that lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > you said you like to hear our thoughts. I shall think aloud. > op 05-06-2005 16:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully > >> aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. > > It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are > >> expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that > >> these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and > >> sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without > >> taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective > >> moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. > ---------- > N: When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or > hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will > take them for mine or self. > If he focusses on each of his actions, it seems to me that there is mere > concentration. There may be concentration with paññaa, concentration with > ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha > darkens the true nature of realities. > I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these > namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are > directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to > select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. But this may happen > without one realizing it, that is the danger. > I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of > conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be > such a surprise! > Nina. 46396 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:23pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining > are insufficient, according to the Buddha ))))))))))))))0 Dear Tep Anguttara Nikaya http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm 6. Vimuttàyatanasuttaü- The sphere of the releases. 003.06. Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five? Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. "endsutta Robertk Robertk 46397 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK {and welcome everyone!} - It was so nice to see your post again. I had been wondering, before the arrival of your message, where Robert was hiding these days! The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It is much shorter than yours. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & > examining > > are insufficient, according to the Buddha > ))))))))))))))0 > 46398 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Good point, Phil. Dhamma well-taught will often be uncomfortable, irritating. Dan > Forgot to mention that I think irritation when hearing Dhamma might > be a good sign. I never felt irritated when listening/reading Thich > Nhat Hahn's feelgood Dhamma, for example. True Dhamma should irritate > us at times, because true dhamma goes against the way of the world, > against our comforts, against our preconceptions. There is lobha which > conditions the irritation when someone tries to take our pablum away > from us. > > > Metta, > Phil 46399 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: Who is Strong? gazita2002 Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": > > "Who is strong?" > "He who controls his passions" > > This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must take to > heart. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 46400 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 5:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? Evan_Stamato... Azita, Another important condition is friendship. According to the Buddha, friendship (friends in the Dhamma) is the whole of the holy life. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gazita2002 Sent: Monday, 6 June 2005 9:36 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita 46401 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary > and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It is much > shorter than yours. > > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the > one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, > out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the > roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't > be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: @@Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases" http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? Robertk 46402 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 6/5/05 7:37:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita ============================ Controlling passions is, as I see it, a matter of transforming the mind by cultivating the factors leading to equanimity and wisdom. This includes all the means provided by the Buddha in his magnificent Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46403 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:09pm Subject: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi all, My apologies for being so quiet over the past two or three weeks. I have been inspired to respond to many messages, as usual, but the responses have not been posted. So, without really knowing what it is going to contain, I am determined to post this message regardless. Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. I read out two posts from Sarah (44853 and 44876) in which she quoted the Mahadhammasamadana Sutta. That sutta explains that the third way of abstaining from misconduct causes us to "experience grief and pain as a result" but ripens in the future as pleasure. Sarah's examples were: ". . . by not harming insects, one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or our hypothetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very generous but lost his wealth and suffered a lot." At first, I found it shocking that samadana sila - a kusala dhamma - could cause grief and pain. But the important thing is, of course, that it doesn't cause grief and pain by way of kamma, it does so by way of natural decisive support condition. Another initial inclination was to flatly reject any ability to know, in conventional terms, what has been caused by what. But then I had to admit; if the place is over-run by cockroaches, it is because we didn't control them. If we bang our head against a brick wall, we can safely assume that our sore head - and all the blood - was caused by banging our head against a brick wall. This is blatently obvious to most people, but not so to an Abhidhamma extremist. :-) I also had to back down on some of my earlier, inflammatory, statements (to Azita and Rob K) in which I claimed that uninstructed worldlings could never know when an activity was kusala or akusala. Clearly, we can be pretty near certain that some conventional activities are unwholesome. There, I've said it! :-) Now it is time for a walk along the beach (no surfing because the waves are as flat as a pancake). I will be taking my new Portable Mp3 player, on which is loaded "Benares 1 & 2." See you later, and thanks for all the posts. Ken H 46404 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: Who is Strong? gazita2002 Hello Evan, Yes, thank you, friendship is another important condition. the good friend in dhamma. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Azita, > > Another important condition is friendship. According to the Buddha, > friendship (friends in the Dhamma) is the whole of the holy life. > > Metta, > > Evan > 46405 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:44pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 213 - Zeal/chanda (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] When mahå-kusala citta (kåmåvacara kusala citta or kusala citta of the sense-sphere) arises, it is accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars” which are vitakka, vicåra, adhimokkha, viriya and chanda. It is accompanied by píti only when the feeling is pleasant feeling. It is also accompanied by sobhana cetasikas which arise only with sobhana citta. The “universals” and the “particulars” are all kusala in this case. Cetanå, for example, “wills” kusala; vitakka “thinks” of the object in the wholesome way; adhimokkha is convinced about the object which is the object of kusala citta; viriya supports the citta and the accompanying cetasikas; píti, if it arises, takes an interest in the object and “refreshes” citta and the accompanying cetasikas; chanda searches for the object in a wholesome way, it assists the citta in the accomplishment of kusala. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46406 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: ------------------- Hi all DSG members, I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. > Jon: > Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, > can be read in either of those 2 ways. > > I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, > < aware.'>>, and the list of activities that follows as being an > elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness > and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. ------------------- Yes, when the Buddha said "You" and "We" he was not referring to abiding beings: he was referring to momentary nama and rupa. So the bhikkhus who heard his words did not think, "This will be *my* training; *I* will be mindful; the arising of mindfulness/non- mindfulness can be controlled." They did not comprehend his words in any of those conventional ways because they understood the profoundly non-conventional truth of anatta. -------------------------------- Jon: > > You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the > 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. > ---------------------------------------------------------- That was how I understood those words until I discovered DSG and, through it, the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. Now, I gratefully agree with the following sentiments (even though they are expressed in a conciliatory style I have yet to acquire). :-) Ken H Jon: > Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general > understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is > preferred. > > But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those > readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? > > My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of > the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? 46407 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? kelvin_lwin Hi All, > through it, the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. How do you see this part from Vism. I 135: The Elder Sangharakkhita the Great, aged over sixty, was lying, it seems, on his deathbed. The order of Bhikkhus questioned him about attainment of the supramundane state. The elder said: 'I have no supramundane state'. Then the young bhikkhu who was attending on him said: 'Venerable sir, people have come as much as twelve leagues, thinking that you have reached nibbana. It will be a disappointment for many if you die as an ordinary man'. -- 'Friend, thinking to see the Blessed One Metteya, I did not try for insight. So help me sit up and give me the chance'. He helped the elder to sit up and went out. As he went out the elder reached Arahantship and he gave a sign by snapping his fingers. The order assembled and said to him" 'Venerable sir, you have done a difficult thing in achieving the supramundane state in the hour of death'. -- 'The was not difficult, friends. But rather I will tell you what is difficult. Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth'. - kel 46408 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Rough Realism ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Dear and Delightful is Dangerous..!: Whatsoever dear things, delighted in, gratified, that are pleasant to us, all these will undergo change and alteration... We will thereby loose them as they were before and be separated from them, since now they have become otherwise and are thus not anymore the same. They have become something different! Whatsoever is born, become, arisen, emerged, and come into being as a compounded and constructed phenomenon, is liable to decay, is prone to fade away, and is bound to vanish... That a thing dependent on supporting conditions should not disintegrate, break up, fall apart, die, and cease to exist, that is indeed impossible... Thus renouncing, letting go, leaving behind, forsaking, abandoning and rejecting all these transient fabrications, is therefore the only true and safe escape from the sure suffering, misery, frustration and deprivation inherent in all this repeated & ever recurring loss, decay, demise, deficit, ageing, sickness and Death... This unconditional & eternal release from all Pain, Misery & Death is called Awakening into Enlightenment... The Noble 8-fold Way is the only real way thereto. There is no other certain, safe & sound exit... Now is the time to realize that fact ... Now is the time to initiate that path ... Now is the time to complete that task ... May your journey be swift and sweet !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46409 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self vvk63 Hi! All The duality of self can be explained by the analogy of looking into the mirror. What you see is you but that is not actually you and you can never see you. Best regards Venky Charles DaCosta wrote: Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) is a viewpoint".>, according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46410 From: "vvk63" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! vvk63 Hi! I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . Thanks & best regards VVK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi vvk63, > welcome;-)) > But what is your name, and what are your interests? > NIna. > op 01-06-2005 13:41 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@y...: > > > Hello! I am new to this group. 46411 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, >the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the >Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare >of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, >empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later > fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is on the samatha part of the samatha-vipassana whole. RobertK : In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases" http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? Tep: Yes, of course, he does. However, you should note a few things before jumping to a conclusion that " Aha! I too can 'think discursively about the Teaching' that I have heard of and read about. Joy will arise in me, etc., and my mind will achieve one-pointedness like this Bhikkhu." The few things to think about are: 1. The sphere of releases is very advanced -- way beyond the level of worldlings and trainers(sekkha). It is way beyond right concentration (samma-samadhi, 4 jhanas) and right knowledge (samma-nana). As stated in MN 117 : "In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way beyond your and my level of thinking. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary > > and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It > is much > > shorter than yours. > > 46412 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi , all DSG members - > > I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 > and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. > The Path is complicated and complex. My understanding, memory, intelligence is much simpler then The Path. It just arises based on conditions and then falls. Buddha in this sutta is showing only one specific aspect of the Path, and yet... I tend to "cut off" just one sentence, or one specific aspect of it to understand. In fact - to prepare my very precious self to deal with it. It just feels good to do this cutting thing, selecting one aspect. I remember, I was doing this for long time. And I remember where it leads me. I can use sanna on The Path. Metta, Agrios 46413 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Please correct one typographical error for me : > > 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way > beyond your and my level of thinking. > The word "recursively" should be changed to "discursively". Thanks. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - > > You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another > question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > 46414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran nilovg Hi Ken, I am glad you are back. I was wondering where you were. We heard so little about Cooran, what were all the discussions about? I am glad you have uploaded the audio. It would be nice if you quote some of it with your own observations added. Nina. op 06-06-2005 05:09 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > > Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One > particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a > point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, > including the precepts. 46415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! nilovg Hi V V K, Thanks for telling us about your spiritual journey. Dialogue, asking questions is one way of realising who you are. Nina. op 06-06-2005 07:45 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@...: > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. 46416 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:40am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add > something. > I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time > to read the books on them. > Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on > behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and > had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques > at the wall. > I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into > contact with the Dhamma. > Nina. Hmm, I have read a little bit of Talmud after a long time of reading Buddhist scripture, specifically about morality, it felt like my whole discipline was apparent, as it was when I first practised Dharma, I figure the difference is now that I'm used to reading it and reading about virtue doesn't click with me anymore. I definitely know more about myself and potential for goodness, it seems the only thing keeping me undisciplined is my assholitude. The question will be, can I overcome it? Meditation lets me see and hear idle chatter for what it is, and abstain from it. I might have the opportunity to rectify my relationship with my father, but I would have to take the initiative. No more idle chatter relationship.. if I can practise the four kinds of right speech, which is always difficult for me. Or perhaps just get the courage to tell him right off that I am going to carry out the family tradition and support him with my work, I don't know how well that would fly but it seems that's what I should be doing. I am not fond of my parents. I want for their welfare but the things they have put me through the past two years really have me averse to helping them, even though I still do try. I think I should focus more on myself, keeping my discipline, straightening myself morally, rather than try to change other people first. This is how things appear to me they should be, I didn't "hammer it out" with logical thinking. Peace, A.L. P.S. Anyone see my new photo? Got the webcam back! 46418 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > op 30-05-2005 22:46 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@g...: > > However I still envision myself as > > practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble > > Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so > > on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism > > than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last > > night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing > > the discipline of the Dharma back to life. > N: Very interesting. What good sila did you read about in the Talmud? Nina I just read a little about the Talmud and then read a section of the first 'book,' about cases where two people give or take an object from one another and where the giver or recipient is 'culpable.' As referenced in my last post, reading anew about virtue, it did 'click' this time and my Dharma-discipline seemed to jump right back in action. Now I should overcome my depression or tendency to just sit back and watch TV, and ready myself for reading some more. Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter the discipline all at once. > Your remarks make me think of the Sigalovada sutta (Diigha Nikaaya, sutta > 31), where Sigala followed the family tradition, honouring the six quarters. > The Buddha gave his practice a deeper dimension. He spoke about desire, > anger, delusion and fear that make one commit evil. He emphasized good > friendship. > Kusala siila is wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Nina! This is the exact sutta I was referring to when I said 'layperson's code of discipline.' My question to you then is: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of fear? In other words, is anything done from these four roots akusala or is it just that we should be mindful of these four things that might lead us to do another, inherently evil, deed? I would appreciate your take on this, you are quite qualified to answer. If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. > > A:.... Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For > > example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, > > "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone > > else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries > > this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something > > similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a > > heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition > > is to be carried out. > N: This shows that the right cause will bring the right result. However, > heavenly rebirth is not the ultimate goal, better still: the end of rebirth, > this is the third noble Truth. Yes! Nina this is exactly what I am talking about and mentioned above. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. > As to family tradition: you can just take out what you find inspiring and > helpful. > You say: > mindfulness as part of the Noble Eightfold Path, ideally.> > First we should understand what are the objects included in the four > foundations of mindfulness. Any dhamma appearing now thorugh eyes, ears, > nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. These dhammas appear also when reading > the Talmud, or writing posts, thinking about the family tradition. > Nina. Very true, but I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two disciplines, it could be. Peace and happiness, A.L. 46419 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? foamflowers Sarah there is a small not at the bottom of this message for helping me on my vedana study. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > Please correct one typographical error for me : > 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is >way beyond your and my level of thinking. > The word "recursively" should be changed to "discursively". Thanks. > Kind regards, > Tep ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah] ---Recursion--- is a particular way of specifying (or constructing) a class of objects (or an object from a certain class) with the help of a reference to other objects of the class: a recursive definition defines objects in terms of the already defined objects of the class. (adv) ---discursively---, ramblingly (in a rambling manner) ---discernment--- understanding: the cognitive condition of someone who understands; "he has virtually no understanding of social cause and effect" taste: delicate discrimination (especially of aesthetic values); "arrogance and lack of taste contributed to his rapid success"; "to ask at that particular time was the ultimate in bad taste" perception: of that which is obscure sagacity: ability to make good judgments discretion: the trait of judging wisely and objectively; "a man of discernment" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, >the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the >Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare >of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, >empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't >later fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is on the samatha part of the samatha- vipassana whole. [lisah] I think discernment here is important to judge or perceive correctly but when one is in jhana there is no discernment that happens afterwards correct? Wouldn't discernment be a better word, as in understanding what is very subtle and hard to see and that relates to the insights that arise after jhana states have been left behind? I'm very confused right now ....lol and goofing off, must get back to work! ________________________________________________ Dear Sarah, Sarah I studied my abhidhamma words this week but didn't use the study for a reply to you lovely repost on my post about vedana. I have a dear friend who is having horrible mental and physical issues from clinging to their past abuse during their childhood. I used my lessons to compose a letter of care and concern that I have for them from your questions and my study. It's to personal to post here on dsg but your questions on my understanding vedana helped me go back and clarify some issues, which helped me reach out and help someone else! Thank you so much for your wisdom and courage. With Metta, Lisa 46420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, op 05-06-2005 23:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Over there are the > roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't > be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." and Tep wrote also: Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining > are insufficient, according to the Buddha in AN V.73 : Dhamma-viharin > Sutta. We must not neglect seclusion (viveka) and commit ourselves to > internal tranquillity of awareness. With vipassana yoked with viveka > and samatha, I have no doubt whatsoever that lobha and the self view > will become less and less as the problem. ------------ N: I think we should know to whom the Buddha addressed himself. For the monk secluded dwellings, panta senasana, were praised very much. The monk should not hang around in the village and engage in animal talk. Nor should he indulge in the ease of bed. Monks had already accumulations to go to the roots of trees, but evenso they should not be negligent and they should apply themselves to satipatthana. And when they were applying themselves to anapanasati evenso, they should be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appeared, in order to see the body in the body, not self, feeling in the feeling, not self, etc. Only that is the way that anapanasati can bring great fruit, great benefit. There is no rule that also laypeople must go into seclusion. It depends on their natural inclinations. As to the word meditate, jhaayati, as Sarah explained this has two meanings: remember her post on burning away of defilements? It can mean: develop the samatha kammatthana and also: contemplate nama and rupa, their three characteristics. Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. Nina. Nina. 46421 From: nina Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 10:59am Subject: natural development nilovg Dear friends, tonight at dinner I read to Lodewijk from my Letters about Vipassana (XI), the following quote from Kh Sujin. There is also something about watching T.V. and I thought of Howard's Mel movie. Here it is: We may wonder whether watching T.V. would hinder the arising of sati. While we watch there are many conditions for attachment, or, when the movie is frightening we have fear. Khun Sujin said about this: "Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anatta." In other words, if ,we want to watch T.V. this wish is conditioned already. Also while we watch there is seeing, hearing or thinking, one reality at a time. Realities appear, no matter whether we watch or do not watch T.V. there is one world at a time appearing through one of the six doorways. These six worlds should be separated until there is no self. Realities appear because of their own conditions, not because of our wish. Khun Sujin said: Nina. 46422 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - Thanks for the good discussion. Nina: Monks had already accumulations to go to the roots of trees, but evenso they should not be negligent and they should apply themselves to satipatthana. And when they were applying themselves to anapanasati evenso, they should be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appeared, in order to see the body in the body, not self, feeling in the feeling, not self, etc. Only that is the way that anapanasati can bring great fruit, great benefit. There is no rule that also laypeople must go into seclusion. It depends on their natural inclinations. Tep: I don't worry about conscientious monks who understand viveka, they can take care of themselves. My post is a reply to RobertK who does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice. It is also a reply to those who is leaning too much on the "understanding leg" of the tripod, Pariyatti-Patipatti-Pativedha. Nina: As to the word meditate, jhaayati, as Sarah explained this has two meanings: remember her post on burning away of defilements? It can mean: develop the samatha kammatthana and also: contemplate nama and rupa, their three characteristics. Tep: This is not a new or confusing issue. Samatha and vipassana are two of the most discussed topics at any Buddhist forum. Isn't contemplation of nama and rupa, or the five aggregates, by means of the three characteristics, known as anupassana? "The seven contemplation's: (1) Contemplating (formations) as impermanent, one abandons the perception of permanence. (2) Contemplating (them) as painful, one abandons the perception of happiness (to be found in them). (3) Contemplating (them) as not self, one abandons the perception of self. (4) Becoming dispassionate, one abandons delighting. (5) Causing fading away, one abandons greed. (6) Causing cessation, one abandons originating. (7) Relinquishing, one abandons grasping" (Pts.M. I, p. 58). See also Vis.M. XXI, 43; XXII, 114. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/anupassanaa.htm Nina: Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. Tep: So, is samatha same as vipassana? Or is "contemplation" so broad that it covers both samatha and vipassana? samatha = 'tranquillity', serenity, is a synonym of samaadhi (concentration), cittekaggataa (one-pointed ness of mind) and avikkhepa (undistracted ness). It is one of the mental factors in wholesome consciousness. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samatha.htm Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > 46423 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Tep: I don't worry about conscientious monks who understand viveka, > they can take care of themselves. My post is a reply to RobertK who > does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice. ================= Dear Tep, I might be mistaken but I don't think I've ever said I don't believe in Jhana practice or seclusion? Do you have the post? I think there are a several posts where I talk about insighting the present moment - (ie, about seclusion in its deepest meaning). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Elder, that you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Yes, lord." ... "But how do you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Lord, alone I enter the village for alms, alone I return, alone I sit withdrawn, Buddha: listen well to you how your living alone is perfected in its details, and pay close attention. I will speak." ... "As you say, lord," Ven. Elder responded. ... The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." Robertk 46424 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:19pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > > . Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. > >______________ > > RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean > by 'practice jhana'? > > Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is > the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied > it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He > spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He > doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is > called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the > Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in > order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice > given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is > on the samatha part of the samatha-vipassana whole. > > ========== Dear Tep, This same phrase is given in the Dhammapada 371 When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (Mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of samatha] with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only thinking about Dhamma. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana. Relating this to the suttas there are hundreds if not thousands of suttas where the Buddha taught the way of insight into the khandhas (aggregates) ayatanas(sense fields) and dhatus (elements). I give one example: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.'End sutta _________ Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist sense. Robertk 46425 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 11:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 214 - Zeal/chanda (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As we have seen, the same type of cetasika is very different as it accompanies different cittas. If we realize that cetasikas fall away immediately together with the citta and that the next moment another citta arises accompanied by other cetasikas, we will be less inclined to think that we own such qualities as energy, determination or enthusiasm. The more we study, the more will we understand, at least on the theoretical level, that all phenomena which arise are conditioned phenomena, saòkhåra dhammas. We still act and think as if there were a self, but as our confidence in the Buddha’s teachings grows, we will be inclined to develop the Path in order to directly experience that all phenomena which arise are saòkhåra dhammas, not self. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46426 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Howard, >Tep: (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of > beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or > persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, > you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be > surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of > persons. Read on. > > The Blessed One said, > "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be > said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- > aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a > clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, > monks, is called the burden. > > "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be > said. > This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called > the carrier of the burden. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html ***** >Howard: I'm quite familiar with this sutta. There was a group, an offshoot > of the > Sarvastivadins I think, a few hundred years after the Buddha who took > this a > basis for a heretical self-view. I think that the author of the > Katthavatthu > may have discussed this. The "person" of this sutta is the conventional > person, > and no one denies such usage. ... S: Yes, I agree with all Howard's comments. There have been many posts on the Kvu chapter, Tep (see 'people' and Kathavatthu in U.P. if you have time). B.Bodhi also gives a long note in his translation here with more detail on the points Howard mentions. At the end, he writes: "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pa~n~natti) derivative upon (upaadaaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right. For the Theravada response, see the first part of Kvu, a lengthy refutation of the 'personalist' thesis." Also, he gives this commentary note: "Spk: Thus, by the expression 'the carrier of the burden,' he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it 'picks up' the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth." .... S: I think we should read suttas like this in the context of all the other suttas in Khandhasa.myutta which stress again and again that the only conditioned dhammas which exist at this very moment are the 5 khandhas, no separate person. SN22:94 Flowers: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." Metta, Sarah ======== 46427 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Howard (James & Tep). You were all having a good discussion on the 'agreed' and 'disagreed' points which I thought James listed very clearly and usefully. Howard disagreed with two of the 'disagreed points' here and clearly expressed his reasons for this. (I think my posts to Tep have also more than touched on the first one): --- upasaka@... wrote: > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > > points were as follows: > _______________________ > 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. > Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. <...> > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in > order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her > statements that beings and people don't exist. > ----------------------------------------------- > > With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? The > analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of > demonstrating the > emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is > what the > khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. > Certainly there is a convention to speak of beings, but what is > conventional speech is frequently not literal speech. As far as I'm > concerned, no > being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are > fuzzy > mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of > mindstreams, > that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". > As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful > shorthand > speech. It is speech involving well-grounded concepts, that is, it is > the > expression of thinking that groups together genuinely related > experiences. ... S: The other two points which James raised after reading 'Realities and Concepts' which he disagreed with were: James: "2. 'Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a sure way to keep radio listeners!;-))" James: "4. Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas." .... S: I understand you all agree with these disagreed points ;-)). On the first one (2), I'd like to just comment that when we read about 'listening to the dhamma' or when K.Sujin stresses this aspect, it is a translation of suta-mayaa-pa~n~naa which precedes cintaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa. Without 'hearing' or coming across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and development (bhaavanaa). On the second point, I'd be glad to see the exact quote. In the meantime, from DN22: a)"There is, monks, this one way (ekaayano maggo) to the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and distress, for the disappearance of pain and sadness, for the gaining of the right path, for the realisation of Nibbana: - that is to say the four foundations of mindfulness (satipa.t.thaanaa)" and b)"And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Way of Practice Leading to the Cessation of Suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path, namely: - Right View,.......Right Concentration." Does this help, Howard (James & Tep)? Metta, Sarah p.s Very happy to be inundated with lots and lots of merry meditators and fellow robots:-)) ===================== ======== 46428 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 1:47am Subject: Discipline sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a bad rebirth in the immediate future.< .... S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). ... S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine and the discipline'. The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we really have a say in the matter. Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly pursuits. Satipatthana has to 'follow' what is conditioned, not the other way round. For myself, in terms of the practice or discipline, I don't really distinguish at all between so called frivolous activites or dhamma/discipline activities. I'm confident that in terms of namas and rupas, these boundaries don't exist and that having ideas about certain situations being preferable for such practice/discipline is a real hindrance. All our inclinations and tendencies have to be known for what they are when they arise....and this won't be by clinging on to the 'good' ones and having a lot of aversion about the 'bad' ones. On another note, I'm very glad to hear that you are attempting to mend your relationship with your parents, especially your father, Al. Of course, like with any close relationship, there will be ups and downs and I know it's very difficult in your case because of what you've been through. If we try to just be understanding and forgiving, it's a kind of dana. What's happened is all in the past and I'm sure they were doing what they thought was best, however misguided it might have been. Yes, we're all vey misguided, even after having had the opportunity to reflect a lot on the teachings. I think that when we can appreciate this, it's easier to have more compassion for others who are also so misguided. And, I agree with you, we really can't change other people. Developing more understanding of conditioned dhammas leads to greater metta, karuna and harmony, but slowly..... Yes, I saw the pic -- good one and thanks for adding it. I hope others follow your good example. Do you have a family pic for the significant others' album too? Metta, Sarah ========= 46429 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, (Nina, Howard, Dan & Jon at the end, oh and everyone else too!!) I had meant to add a little to this post of yours as well(#46025) --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" > and much > of its supplementary reading. > > One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share > is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline > . <...> > I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things > OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise > and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not > good relations with. .... S: I'm sure you've all had a really tough time and my sympathies go out to you all. Let us know how you get on in this regard. metta is the key, I think. ... > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when > in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of > mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted > us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder > that, but know? .... S: The four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised in daily life. For lay people, this means in our home life, in our work, in our worldly responsibilities. .... > So lastly, I wonder if doing work, aside from being idle (which is > listed as an evil in this sutta), which for me means computer > programming, generates any kamma, and so, if I do it habitually, it > will help towards a more fortunate rebirth. It is said in the > sutta, "Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things > undone, the opportunities for good go past such men." ... S: I think this is such a good quote. It's so easy to make excuses to put off 'good' of all kinds. But the only opportunity is ever now at this moment, whether we're at work, communicating with family or whatever else. .... >So it seems > work is the crux of goodness in this sutta. Is it mere work that can > build one a 'shelter from anguish' as is described elsewhere in the > texts, and bring about a more fortunate rebirth, or is it just as I > might suppose, that doing work is just a central point (a somewhat > good thing, but not necessarily good in the sense of generating > kamma), for good, for treating others well? .... S: The 'good' comes back to the citta now, whether or not we're working. Taking responsibility so others don't need to be concerned about us, helping those around, fulfilling one's obligations and so on are all ways that lead to social harmony. (See 'laylife' in U.P.) ... >I find I am more 'good' > to my family when I am doing programming, which I guess makes me more > good in general. ... S: You're fortunate to have this great skill and by working and making your family happy, you will be doing 'good' and easing them of worrry and concern. As a result, you'll benefit a lot as well by taking care of worldly concerns and getting your worldly life on track (and hopefully out of the hospitals in future). ... > > I really could use some feedback on this matter, especially with the > last issue I brought up, because I ought to engage in some habitual > good kamma so I don't have to have so much fear of what might come > after this life, but be confident and accepting about it. .... S: This is just my view, but I think that if you're happily engaged in your work and dhamma pursuits when you have free time, there will be less inclination to fear and the confidence and acceptance (and joy of dhamma)will develop from seeing the application of satipatthana in your ordinary daily life. .... > > -A.L. (yes that new picture is of me, Spring 2003) ... S: the new pic of two years ago!!Thx again. ... > > P.S. I remember one of my old views, that I simply have computer > programming here, and can do this, and <...> > but I really don't think much of anymore the past year or > two. ... S: Good - it's gone. Let go of the burden.... > > Thanks much for the help!, ... S: Just keep writing to us all here, Al. When Nina and we visit New York, we'll look forward to meeting you too!! Metta, Sarah p.s Howard & Nina, Long Island - yes, Gatsby-land! Rob Ep always said he'd come to NY if we made it too....Who else? One of the Chucks? Maybe Larry, Lisa, James, even Tep?? It's sounding v.tempting. August, we've been planning on Australia, but it's winter Down Under and it could be NY instead...what d'ya reck'n Jon & all?:-)) Dan, Oregon is also appealing and I'd love to meet Connie too and see Mike again...next it'll have to be an around-the-world to celebrate Jon's retirement from Govt to keep him out of trouble;-). ====== 46430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, I just go to the end of your post. The texts given by Rob are worth considering. if there is anything you find doubtful, let us discuss it. It is an important topic. op 06-06-2005 21:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: T: Isn't contemplation of nama and rupa, or the five aggregates, by > means of the three characteristics, known as anupassana? > > "The seven contemplation's: > (1) Contemplating (formations) as impermanent, one abandons the > perception of permanence. . ------------ N: Yes, this is the development of vipassanaa. -------- > Nina: Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. > > Tep: So, is samatha same as vipassana? Or is "contemplation" so > broad that it covers both samatha and vipassana? ------------- N: When insight contemplates the three characteristics, it has been developed already to that degree. There is right understanding and right mindfulness, and also right concentration of the eightfold Path. This does not mean that the Buddha set a rule that everyone has to go apart and develop samatha to the degree of jhana first. Meghiya had to ask the Buddha three times permission to go apart. When he finally received permission he was overcome by lobha, dosa and moha. The Buddha also spoke about forest life as being not suitable for everyone. When one becomes frightened very easily by sounds, it is no good. Jhaana was praised by the Buddha as a high form of kusala, but one still had to develop insight lest there be a wrong interpretation of realities, and this is taking them for self. As I wrote to you before, there are three kinds of seclusion, viveka: kaaya viveeka (bodily seclusion), citta viveka (mental seclusion) and upadhi viveka (true calm of the arahat who is free from upadhi, substratum of rebirht). I like Rob's quote: This is the true inner calm. It reminds me of another sutta, "One Auspicious Night", where it is said: do not cling to the past which has gone already, nor to the future which has not come yet, but be aware now here, now there, of the present. How to be aware of the present? As Rob says, Contemplating impermanence is realizing the arising and falling away of nama and rupa that appear now. And paññaa will also be able to realize their dependent origination. But the beginning is: what is nama, what is rupa. Should we not discuss more about nama and rupa? What is your view about them? Nina. 46431 From: nina Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 164, Wrong View. Intro: Wrong view, di.t.thi, is a distorted view of realities, it interpretes them wrongly. It arises with four of the eight types of lobha-muulacittas, cittas rooted in attachment. When there is wrong view there is also clinging to that view. Wrong view is also accompanied by ignorance, moha. Wrong view is different from ignorance, but it is conditioned by it. Ignorance does not know the true nature of realities and di.t.thi has wrong view about it. **** Text Vis.: (xli) By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is 'wrong view'. -------- N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the nature of dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. ----------- Text Vis.: Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. -------------- N: The Tiika explains unwise adherence (ayoniso abhiniveso) as the wrong means and the wrong course. Dhammasangani (381) calls ditthi a "wrong road" and the Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains : ... From being not the right path, it is a "wrong path". For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path... --------- Text Vis.: Its function is to preassume (paraamaasa). --------- N: The Tiika explains paraamaaso, touching, being attached to (here translated as preassume), as going beyond [the real meaning of] the nature of dhammas and handle them as other (parato). Thus, it misinterpretes the true characteristics of dhammas. ---------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as wrong interpreting. -------- N: The Tiika states with regard to wrong interpretation (micchaabhiniveso, that by inverted grasp one imagines: ŒThis alone is truth, all else is vain¹ (³idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nan²ti). This is dogmatism which is classified as one of the four bodily ties (kaayaganthas). The Dhammasangani § 1139 explains that this includes taking the world for eternal, or not eternal, and believing that this alone is true and all else is falsehood. The same is said for the other kinds of wrong view regarding the world, the soul and the body. The Dhammasangani states: ŒAnd, excepting the bodily tie of perversion as to rule and ritual [wrong practice], all wrong views are included under the bodily tie of the disposition to dogmatize¹. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwillingness to see noble ones, and so on. It should be regarded as the most reprehensible of all. ------ N: The proximate cause of ditthi is "the desire not to see the ariyans". In the commentary to Mulapariyaya Sutta, Middle Length Sayings I, no. 1, (translated by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi in "The Root of Existence", The Mulapariyaya Sutta and its Commentarial Exegesis, BPS. Kandy, 1980), it is explained that "the desire not to see the ariyans", or being without regard for the ariyans, means that one does not realize the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa; that one does not attain the Dhamma attained by the ariyans. If one does not listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the "good friend in Dhamma" and does not apply what one hears, there are no conditions for the development of right understanding. Instead of listening to the right friend one may associate with the wrong person. As a consequence one accumulates more wrong view and this leads to many kinds of evil. Wrong view is to be considered as the highest fault. It prevents one from understanding the Buddha¹s teaching of anattaa. If one does not listen to true Dhamma as explained by the wise friend, Œpersonality belief¹, sakkaaya di.t.thi, cannot be eradicated. Personality belief comprises four kinds of wrong view with regard to each of the five khandhas: one takes them for self, or one sees the self as possessing them, or as containing them or as being contained in them. Thus, there are twenty kinds of personality belief. So long as one still believes in a self, one is bound to cling to speculative theories about the world, the soul and the body, about the past, about the future. One may cling to the view of Eternalism, the belief that there is a "self" who is permanent, or to the view of Annihilationism, the belief that there is a "self" who will be annihilated after death. In the Brahma-jaala-sutta ("The All-Embracing Net of Views", The Dialogues of the Buddha I,) sixty-two kinds of wrong view are mentioned. There are three kinds of wrong view which are very dangerous, they are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views: 1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-ditthi) 2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-ditthi) 3) There is no such thing as kamma ( akiriya-ditthi) When one does not see kamma as cause one does not see its result either, and when one does not see the result of kamma, one does not see kamma as cause either. As to the view that there are no causes (ahetuka-di.t.thi), this is the view that there is no cause for the depravity and purity of beings, that one is bent by fate, chance and nature. If one is firmly convinced about these three views they are unwholesome courses of action through the mind, and they lead to the commitment of many other kinds of evil deeds. One may not see the benefit of kusala such as generosity or siila, and one may not see the danger of killing, stealing and other evil deeds. So long as one has not become a sotaapanna, there is still the latent tendency of wrong view. Wrong view should be eradicated first, before the other defilements can be eradicated. So long as there is wrong interpretation of realities, one does not see defilements as conditioned dhammas, one takes them for self. They can only be eradicated by paññaa which sees them as they are. By the study of sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas we can be reminded that all these qualities are merely dhammas that arise because of the appropriate conditions. They are not abstract notions, they occur in daily life. If we remember that wrong view is the highest fault, there can be a sense of urgency to develop understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. This is the only way to see dhamma as dhamma, not a person, not self. ***** Nina. 46432 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry (*and friends of James) --- LBIDD@... wrote: > We could start with the first three on the 'agreement' side: > > 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. > > L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate > 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there > is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or > with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. ... S: This was sounding interesting and good til I got to the 'concept is intimation rupa':-/? ... > > 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. > > L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of > craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges > on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the > object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a > shimmery whiteness. .... S: I see your point, but I think we can say that attachment can arise so quickly, even before we have any idea of it. So even in the sense door process or the immediately following mind door process, attachment arises, long before there's any idea of what is seen. To give a more obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. Instant aversion, I think. .... > > 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes > can be > > L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? ... S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true natures. ... > > I basically agree with the rest of the agreements: > > 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts > to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try > to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) .... S: You were the toughest reviewer of the points, Larry:-). .... > > DISAGREED POINTS: > 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to > K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this > thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings > don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, > but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the > suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined > `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. ... S: In the sutta I just quoted to Tep, "Flowers', it referred to what is said to exist and be impermanent as being the aggregates. Doesn't it follow from all these suttas that nothing else exists and is impermanent? .... > > L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism > and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, > continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three > aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply > walking. ... S: Yes, three aspects of reality. Not sure where the walking comes in:-/? .... > > 2.`Practice´ consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that´s a > sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) > > L: I think K. Sujin's position is that 'practice' (aka development) is > the arising of virtuous consciousness and insight. There is no one who > practices (or listens). ... S: Right... .... > > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order > to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that > beings and people don't exist. > > L: This relates to the _near_ paradox of impermanence, continuity, and > emptiness, with an emphasis on continuity. .... S::-/ I found Howard's answer a little easier to follow...Perhaps you can elaborate. Oh, Ok...got it...you're thinking of the quote in Vism about continuity and otherness and the illusion of a person? .... > > 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice > of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold > Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. > > L: The Satipatthana Sutta says "this is the only way" and includes the > Noble Eightfold Path as an object of insight in various ways. ... S: Right, I just quoted from the SS. I wouldn't say the N8P is an object of insight, rather it is the way or Path and includes insight as the forerunner. Thx for your elaborations and also for some recent good quotes from the Vism, such as the timely 'puppet' one on the robot thread. Metta, Sarah *p.s oh that reminds me, robots can be frivolous too at times as well as short-circuiting -- so now we know about the accumulations here for seriously annoying robots, a starving artist, an emo kid:-)) and the schoolyard bully!!!, any more confessions???? =========== 46433 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! sarahprocter... Hi Venky, Many, many thanks for your great intro. --- vvk63 wrote: > I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . > > My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was > deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say > when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a > Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical > rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about > Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite > thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I > joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. > > Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . ... S: I hope we hear plenty more from you. Do you still live in Mumbai (India)? How did your family respond to your new viewing of all the rituals? This may be interesting to Andrew L and others too. How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? I'm grateful to Buddhanet.com for leading you here! Do you have a pic for the album too? Metta, Sarah ======== 46434 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #3 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Sorry for taking so long to get back to continuing my response. The whole family was sick with influenza and it was quite bad this time. :-( From the last post: ================================ Eznir: Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and > instruct accordingly! Sukinder: How will he do that, and by what standard? I think only a Buddha is capable of such a thing. ================================== Eznir: > It's like training the mind of a child to do things that he would not > comprehend, but would appreciate their importance when he grows up. > You will observe here that the child needs to *do* those things if he > is to get enlightened! Sukinder: And like children we are suggestible and easily influenced, having accumulated so much wrong view and the necessary greed to drive us. And indeed we can grow up with the illusion of having "learnt" and "gained" something positive, when in fact what we really need, is the chance meeting with a "wise friend" who would show us our error. ;-) ======================== Eznir: > And his enlightenment is a result of having > done the right things at the right time - a matter of cause and > conditionality - and has nothing to do with self. Which the child did > not know at the time he was following the instruction of his parents > *when he was a child*. > > Thus a child outgrows his childness and becomes an adult. In much the > same way a Puthujjana would outgrow his 'puthujjana-ness' and become > a sotapatti. In the case of the child he acquires right experience > with right view at the right time and becomes a 'good' adult. In the > puthujjana he eradictes 'wrong experience' with right view at the > right time and becomes a sotapatti. The rightness of the view in both > cases is relative, in one it is to become a good adult- anuloma, the > other to become an Arahant hence patisotagami though he is not an > Arahant as yet and not patiloma as such but retardation has started > and he has still things to do (refer Kitagiri Sutta 70 in MN) Sukinder: Can you elaborate on this last part? I am not sure what it is that you are trying to tell me. ========================= > Sukin: Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone > approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with > relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not > the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? > .............................................. Eznir: > The craving that you refer to here can also be dhammachanda or > rightful wish which is skillful, except this 'craving' is different > to the craving to other things that are unwholesome, could this not > be so? It can be verified as to which kind of craving it is by > reflection. There is no self involved here, it is just a matter of > cause and conditionality as in the case of 'the child'. What you are, > whether a child or adult, puthujjana or sotapatti depends on ones > determinations/intentions - sankharas, which is either acquired or > eradicated. Sukinder: Of course, only the person will know if at the moment there is lobha or kusala chanda. Only he will know if the chanda is towards knowing the causes or that it is seeking after results. And if he expresses his views enough, I think others can come to know whether indeed there is `self' in the seeking. ========================== > Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be > reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can > understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? > .......................................... Eznir: > And when the teacher reminds the student about what indeed he > experienced in the moment, and thus when the student understands this > according to his 'accumulated panna', isn't this 'purposeful > observation' on the part of the student guided by the more > experienced teacher? Sukinder: As stated, `intention' arises with every citta. The particular aspect of `intention' which I object to, is the one associated with thoughts such as, "If I do ………, then sati and panna has greater chance of arising and being developed." And this includes, `purposeful observation'. Every moment conditions as sankhara a step towards more understanding or to more misunderstanding. When we hear a teacher talk dhamma, this can condition panna on any level, pariyatti, patipatti or even pativedha. But whatever the level, it is a conditioned dhamma already arisen and fallen away. No `self' any where to control anything. I think it is precisely the lack of understanding even on the intellectual level, that some would have the idea of `doing', upon hearing dhamma. ======================= > Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that > to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that > corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you > think? > ............................................ Eznir: > Some Dhammas are impossible to understand intellectually and these > others that you state here can be known. But how is a thing 'known' > really in a mundane sense? Doesn't this knowing imply a self? When a > thing is 'known' in the supramundane sense does it imply a self? If > not, what is the difference in these two 'knowings'? Sukinder: Good question, I think. I believe the accumulated sacca is very important here. Let us take `seeing'. Any uninstructed worldling will `know' this to the extent that he knows anything at all. Only he will not know that the knowing is conceptual and with `self'. When hearing about `seeing' as being an `element', not belonging to any `self', he may not agree with this and continue to believe that "he" is `seeing' and that what he sees as `people and things' are as real as he is. If however there is some accumulated panna, then perhaps he will accept the proposition (of elements), relating it to this present moment of seeing. But of course this may be followed by the intention of `looking' in order to really experience `seeing'. But this would be because of the yet weak pariyatti. Seeing after all cannot be made to arise by will, neither any sati nor panna to know that. So in fact here, the mode of seeing will be just the same as the uninstructed worldling and this need to be realized, i.e. the difference between, reality and concept. Another person may have satipatthana right away. In all this however, it is all about `conditioned' dhammas. In the first there is miccha ditthi and little chance of being corrected. In the second, the panna is still weak, but instruct able. In the third the panna is already strong but still not of the same degree as supramundane. But no `self' involved anywhere. The level of sati and panna is different, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Sakkya Ditthi will not know this and even for one who has heard the correct `theory', `self' does often come in to direct his path. It is here, that accumulated sacca helps. =============================== Continued in #4. Metta, Sukinder 46435 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I continue. =============================== Eznir: > Isn't it Saddha when you follow your teacher by doing this and that > as he says and eventually find your self confidence increasing > together with the confidence in your teacher! Would this be pointing > to a self? Note here that the 'self' in 'self confidence' is not the > usual rendering of the word. Sukinder: I think one distinguishing mark of a really good teacher, is that he or she will not encourage any blind acceptance of theory but instead would encourage the student to `see for himself'. This seeing may not be very deep, but proportionate to any accumulated understanding, however it is what a student will have to rely on. Any idea about following a `method' with future results in mind, is giving way to the illusion of result from the very beginning, relying on citta, sanna and ditthi vipallasa to do any assessment. ============================ Eznir: ........................................................... > "However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think > this is what influences us ultimately", how do you come to this > conclusion? No doubt during our long trek in sansara we would have > accumulated so much of 'wrong view'. Nevertheless, if we are resigned > to and are mindful of only this notion, 'right view' will never get > an opportunity to arise! Sukinder: I was trying to be realistic and not pessimistic. I am not denying the accumulated panna and other kusala. The arising of panna however, is not dependent on being optimistic or pessimistic. `Views' more importantly refer to how this present experience is interpreted and not what we tell ourselves about dhamma. ============================= > Sukin: I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the > idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the > many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of > days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, > the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain > experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to > observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at > nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. > ........................................................ Eznir: > The scenario given here is only possible between a mis-guided teacher > and a foolish student. If the teacher was genuine then the student > has misunderstood the teacher or if the students were intelligent > they should be able to see through the teachers ignorance. The suttas > give guidlines on how to gauge a good teacher (refer Vimamsaka Sutta > 47 in MN) Sukinder: Only panna can recognize panna. The weaker the accumulations, the longer time needed to make any correct judgement. Discussions are one sure way to know how correct or incorrect anyone's view is. If both student and teacher have wrong view, then that is what is going to develop, and wrong view does not know itself to be wrong. :-/ ===================================== > Sukin: But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never > the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, > then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the > real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone > does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. > ........................................ Eznir: > This is why a genuine teacher's guidance is needed to see that the > student is not misled. Sukinder: :-) And now we come back to the point of my letter. "What a beginner needs to hear". Does he need to hear about so called `meditation practice', or should he be directed to "dhamma", i.e. the dhammas which he experiences from morning till night, but of which he is completely ignorant? Is `practice' possible without knowledge of the dhammas to be known, including the dhamma, `patipatti' itself? I think it is most unfair that a beginner, not having a clear understanding about `practice' in the ultimate sense, is instead made to follow some conventional activity. And to then supplement this with theory is not helpful, wrong view would after all interpret any Dhamma accordingly. In other words, my position is that anyone who teaches formal meditation as a means of developing wisdom does not understand Dhamma. Also anyone who ties jhana practice with vipassana, he too does not understand what Dhamma really is. ================================== > Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas,...... > ............................... > > There is no one to control the Dhammas, *even in a Puthujjana*. It is > only certain akusala dhammas that led to the propogation of kamma in > a Puthujjana as did the kusala dhammas that led to the eradication of > kamma in an Arahat. In both cases there was no self involved! Sukinder: Yes, but some people do try to control dhammas and they do so in the name of right practice. They may call it `influence' or `creating better conditions' or whatever and say to the effect that what they do is the `Middle Way', but that is how the `self' justifies itself. ==================================== > Sukin: .....one has great chance of developing not only the > understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also > the knowledge of paccaya. > ................................................ Eznir: > By purposeful observation! Sukinder: No, never by purposeful observation. There are dhammas which condition an idea of `looking', if instead of insighting this, the attention goes to the projected idea, then we are forever chasing shadows only. ===================================== > Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing,..... > .................................................. Eznir: > I wonder how one pays attention to the present moment without being > purposeful! As you said earlier on, there are dhammmas arising all > the time. These dhammas do not arise without consciousness as a > support. And where there is consciousness there is intention or > purpose, the intended purpose for consciousness to *be*! And in that > moment, to the skillful, the dhammas are to be seen with the eye of > wisdom - paccattam vedi tabbo vinnuhi! Sukinder: Let me put it this way. There are only dhammas. With respect to `knowing', sometimes there is wrong understanding, sometimes there is right understanding. Wrong understanding does not know that it is wrong, right understanding knows whether it is of the intellectual, direct or the realization level. For most of us at most of the time, which is very little of the time, when there is awareness of what is going on, the level that we know it is the `thinking level'. Satipatthana, if ever it arises, cannot be more than just a single mind moment and most likely followed by akusala, in particular, lobha. I think we can really observe how pervasive ignorance is and how akusala in general is always there. Knowing this it is not surprising that Satipatthana must be a very rare occurrence indeed. Now, even when reading the dhamma, pariyatti arises relatively little, how can we assume that panna of patipatti, which is higher, will arise when we deliberately look? We should be careful not to jump to a conclusion about our `seeing'. It must be faulty!! I think it is dangerous to go around with the idea that one is developing sati and panna doing `formal meditation'. One tends to overlook the importance of pariyatti, which of course is a necessary for patipatti to arise in the first place. I know this saying that it is `hopeless' for the meditator. But who listens to me anyway. :-) Sorry to burden you with such a long reply, please do not feel obliged to respond. Metta, Sukinder 46436 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika philofillet Hi Nina, and all N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the nature of dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. Ph: What is the difference between this and the perversion of sanna (perception), which I think is called vipallasa or something like that? I know in the chapter on sanna, we discussed the perversion of perception that causes us to see the unbeautiful as beautiful, the impermanent as permanent, etc. Is vipalassa (?) related to wrong view? Thanks in advance, Nina. And hello in passing to Dan and others whom I will get back to when I have more time. Thanks to Howard for the Mel Brooks and Yentl quotes. There is a lot to reflect on in there.. Metta, Phil 46437 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:29am Subject: The opportunity - SN 35:135 philofillet Hello all I'd like to post a quick word of appreciation for the sutta entitled "The Opportunity" (Sn 35:135) It really encouraged me today. It teaches us that in hell, where there are only disagreeable objects, and in heaven where there are only deesirable and lovely objects, there is not the opportunity to live the holy life like there is for humans. From Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes, quoting a commentary: "It isn't possible to live the holy life of the path either in hell, because of extreme suffering, or in heaven, because of extreme pleasure, on account of which negligence arises through continuous amusements and delights. But the human world is a combination of pleasure and pain, so this is the field of action for the holy life of the path. The human state gained by you is the opportunity, the occasion, for living the holy life." Reflecting on this sutta this morning made my busy day feel quite rich and there was an intellectual appreciation for some disagreeable things, a kind of shallow equanimity or something. On the other hand I have learned that it is unwise to feel content with human rebirth, or heavenly rebirth, or anything short of the ultimate liberation. Metta, Phil 46438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 06-06-2005 17:56 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: > > Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how > pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter > the discipline all at once. ------------- N: We are not arahats yet, and thus, there are conditions for worldly life, worldly conversations. But we can make the most of it: developing understanding exactly in the midst of worldly life. Like life with your parents. As Sarah says, good if the relationship can improve. Indeed with metta and karuna and you will not regert that. If you knew what problems I had with my father. But some years before his death it all became better. Afterwards, when you become older, you see it all differently and better understand conditions for people's behaviour. Before long they are old enough to die and you may regret it if you did not make up. I never forget a lesson Kh. Sujin gave. In Sri Lanka we stayed with a lady who critized Kh Sujin and I remarked that she did not like us. She answered: it does not matter, we like her. That is metta without expecting anything. ------------- A: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil > because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it > that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be > evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of > fear?.... ---------------- N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala roots. Fear is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in moha, ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are rooted in lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some have moha, ignorance, as their only root. All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what has been accumulated in the past. ---------- A: If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem > I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop > indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of > technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. ----------- N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to be eradicated first. So long as you take craving for mine or self it is impossible to eradicate it. We live our life naturally, as Sarah explained. During computer activities, it is a good opportunity to know your own cittas. ---------- A: Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read > about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on > the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? ----------- N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are conditions kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, such is life. ------------ > Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that > is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the > Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. ----------- N: There is no 'we' who could add practice at will. There have to be the right conditions: first more intellectual understanding of what the objects of satipatthana are: whatever dhamma arises can be the object, also akusala dhamma. We should not despise that. We have to learn that everything is dhamma. ------------ A. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one > to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, > and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least > I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice > on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take > the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while > still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is > studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing > mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our > practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. -------- N:The lesson we also get from the sutta: know the citta that motivates kusala and akusala. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to know oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. -------- A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta > to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, > or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that > will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two > disciplines, it could be. ----- N: you wrote:< one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as painful>. That is not enough. More important: to know feelings as non-self. They are conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is taking over. Nina. 46439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika nilovg Hi Phil and Sarah, very good point, Phil. It made me think about the view to take for sukha that is dukkha. I found the solution in Nyanatiloka dictionary under vipallaasa and looked what the sotaapanna has eradicated. He has eradicated the view, ditthi, that dukkha is happiness and that unpleasant is pleasant. See below. op 07-06-2005 17:11 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the > nature of > dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. > It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. > > > Ph: What is the difference between this and the perversion of > sanna (perception), which I think is called vipallasa or something > like that? I know in the chapter on sanna, we discussed the > perversion of perception that causes us to see the unbeautiful as > beautiful, the impermanent as permanent, etc. Is vipalassa (?) > related to wrong view? -------- some, but not all. The classification by way of perversities is a different classification of defilements. four perversities of saññaa, four of citta, four of di.t.thi. These four are: to see what is impermanent as permanent, to see what is non-self as self, to see what is dukkha as happiness, to see what is not beautiful (asubha) as beautiful. This way of seeing can be done with saññaa, with citta and with di.t.thi. The Co. states that the perversity of saññaa is the weakest and di.t.thi is the strongest. All four connected with ditthi vippallasa are eradicated by the sotaapanna and also: the first two vippallasas (of saññaa and citta) that are seeing as impermanent as permanent, and seeing what is non-self as self. The reason is that these are also connected with wrong view. The sotaapanna has no more wrong view. Thus, some of the vipallasas are connected with ditthi and some are not. They go with clinging that is not associated with wrong view. See U.P. there are posts about it. Nina. 46440 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - In an earlier message I wrote to Nina, "My post is a reply to RobertK who does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice". And you corrected me, "...but I don't think I've ever said I don't believe in Jhana practice or seclusion? Do you have the post? I think there are a several posts where I talk about insighting the present moment - (ie, about seclusion in its deepest meaning)." No, Robert, I don't have such a post. My understanding has been influenced by our discussion in the past that you are a sukkha- vipassaka. But I have not heard of that "seclusion in its deepest sense". RobertK, quoting SN XXI.10 : "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." Tep: This sutta tells me that we probably are talking about the same seclusion (kaya-viveka, citta-viveka, upadhi viveka). I think the same result consists of detachment from alluring sensuous objects (bodily detachment) + inner detachment + detachment from all kilesas. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 46441 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kenhowardau Hi Kel, You asked: ---------------------------- > How do you see this part from Vism. I 135: The Elder Sangharakkhita the Great, aged over sixty, was lying, it seems, on his deathbed. The order of Bhikkhus questioned him about attainment of the supramundane state. The elder said: 'I have no supramundane state'. Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth'. > ---------------- There are a lot of interesting points in there, but I assume you have something particular in mind. Do you see evidence of a conventional path to enlightenment? Sangharakkhita said to the young bhikkhu; " Friend, thinking to see the Blessed One Metteya, I did not try for insight. So help me sit up and give me the chance." To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a conditioning factor for enlightenment? Also, do you see a causal link between sitting and enlightenment, and if so, what is it? Ken H 46442 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:47pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK, Thank you for the lengthy quote, Robert. But I have no doubt about what meditation means; samatha meditation (to attain internal tranquility of awareness in the Dhamma-viharin Sutta), and vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa. The Visuddhimagga also expounds on the two aspects of meditation (see Part II and Part III), and it also give several suttas as the reference. I am curious about the words "paramattha dhammas" you added (inside the parentheses) after "khandhas": RobertK: Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita,... ... Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time (while He still lived)? RobertK: Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist sense. Tep: How did I fail your test? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > 46443 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. Here's a couple of words of explanation: J: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. ... S: This was sounding interesting and good til I got to the 'concept is intimation rupa':-/? --------------------------------- Larry: I'm taking 'concept' to be a word and a word is either a sound or visible data on a page. That's why it's problematical to equate 'conceptual' and 'conventional'. But even 'conventional' isn't a very satisfactory concept. A convention is an agreement but the sense of a whole isn't really an agreement. We can give a whole a name, like 'Hong Kong', but that doesn't make that whole, or sense of a whole, a name. Maybe instead of 'conventional' we could call this sense 'ordinary' or 'common' or something like that (deluded?). ------------------------------------- J: 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a shimmery whiteness. S: I see your point, but I think we can say that attachment can arise so quickly, even before we have any idea of it. So even in the sense door process or the immediately following mind door process, attachment arises, long before there's any idea of what is seen. To give a more obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. Instant aversion, I think. ------------------------------------ Larry: Good example. I was just going on the logic that desire or aversion arises with ignorance so whatever is perceived is misperceived. Can desire or aversion arise without ignorance? --------------------------------------- J: 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? ... S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true natures. ----------------------------- Larry: How do you know they are merely shadows of true natures? ----------------------------- J: 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. S: In the sutta I just quoted to Tep, "Flowers', it referred to what is said to exist and be impermanent as being the aggregates. Doesn't it follow from all these suttas that nothing else exists and is impermanent? L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply walking. S: Yes, three aspects of reality. Not sure where the walking comes in:-/? ------------------------------- Larry: Isn't there some sutta where the Buddha says something like 'don't say exists or not exists? The example of walking circles back to the first point (above) about wholes. A person or walking are examples of wholes. In a sense they are not 'really' objects of consciousness. Just as you can't actually experience (see, feel, etc.) Hong Kong, in the same way you can't actually experience a person or even experience walking. Yet, we do, undeniably. The impermanence and continuity of realities are fashioned into something without self-nature. For lack of a better word we call this something a concept. It is possible to directly experience this lack of self-nature. Observe yourself walking or look at your face in the mirror. If you look carefully you will see that there is nothing there. That is what I mean by insight into 'concept'. Apropos of our Vism. topic, ignorance, if, instead of seeing that there is nothing there, you see that you can't see, maybe that is insight into ignorance. If so, that places ignorance very close to wisdom: not seeing or seeing not. I'm not 100% sure this stuff makes sense but if you want to continue maybe we should start over. This thread is getting a little unwieldy. Larry 46444 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Actually Factual ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: This World is Messed Up! The Buddha once told a deity: This world is suffering from Death, Troubled by ageing, decay & sickness, Wounded by the Dart of constant Craving! Always is it burning with Desire & Lust... This world is addicted to Delight & Pleasure, Since dragged around by this urge, Craving must be cut, to break free from bondage and reach Nibbana... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46445 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear RobertK, > > > I am curious about the words "paramattha dhammas" you added > (inside the parentheses) after "khandhas": > > RobertK: Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e > paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend > Kotthita,... > ... > > Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" > too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas > given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time > (while He still lived)? > > RobertK: Without understanding what is paramattha and what is > concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to > understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist > sense. > > Tep: How did I fail your test? > ================= Dear Tep, You lost me here, was there a test? I don't think the term paramattha dhammas was used in the suttas, but it is common in the ancient commentaries of Theravada. In the homepage of this group it says "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, <...> and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition"". Thus defining terms according to the vocabulary of the ancients is permitted and indeed encouraged by the founders of the group. RobertK 46446 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kelvin_lwin Hi KenH and all, > KenH: To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense > (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a > conditioning factor for enlightenment? Kel: No, I'm not reading this too literally. I think this, however, goes to show it's insufficient to count on "conditions" only. There are other examples of where people have sufficient paramis but failed to attain enlightenment even during Buddha's time. There's also a part that says "Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth". I would think this fits "atapi sampajano satima" but he wasn't enlightened yet. It goes back to Howard's point about requiring "volitional action". Past conditions (paramis) plus the present action (bhavana) gives rise to enlightenment. If either one is missing then it's not going to happen. I think this highlights the need for intention and/or striving specifically toward enlightenment. > KenH: Also, do you see a causal > link between sitting and enlightenment, and if so, what is it? Kel: Of course it would be wrong to conclude sitting posture is required for enlightenment. However, it goes back to James's point about what is more conducive for an individual. Perhaps this elder has practiced while sitting a lot and didn't feel the current position (lying down) was as good. It begs the obvious question why didn't he just practice satipatthana anywhere/anytime as perhaps someone like him easily could. Either way, there seems to be a big role choices play into whether or not one is successful. - kel 46447 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:53pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > RobertK : In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: > "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres > when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind > is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble > end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. > ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had > heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. > To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind > of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, > this is the fourth of the five releases" > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm > > Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? > > > Tep: Yes, of course, he does. However, you should note a few things > before jumping to a conclusion that " Aha! I too can 'think discursively > about the Teaching' that I have heard of and read about. Joy will arise > in me, etc., and my mind will achieve one-pointedness like this > Bhikkhu." The few things to think about are: > > 1. The sphere of releases is very advanced -- way beyond the level of > worldlings and trainers(sekkha). It is way beyond right concentration > (samma-samadhi, 4 jhanas) and right knowledge (samma-nana). As > stated in MN 117 : > > "> 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way > beyond your and my level of thinking. > ============== Dear Tep, I agree that vimutti is beyond us right now, but I don't see thinking about the teaching (or the other 4 ways) as being recommended only for arahants here Indeed I think the sutta is indicating the 5 ways by which beings can gradually attain vimutti. Reflecting on the teaching can sound like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti. The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same - insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). Take the sutta I cited earlier: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self.""endsutta. Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. Robertk 46448 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 11:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Questions i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda and lobha? iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform wholesome deeds? iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamånå cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say that the latter types are neither wholesome nor unwholesome? v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or píti can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards akusala and thus entirely different? vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the development of the Path? In what way? ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 46449 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH, Cooranites & all, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi all, > > My apologies for being so quiet over the past two or three weeks. I > have been inspired to respond to many messages, as usual, but the > responses have not been posted. So, without really knowing what it > is going to contain, I am determined to post this message regardless. ... S: Good to hear your deep reflections as usual. Chris, AndrewT, Steve, no questions, background humour or different viewpoints arising this time? .... > Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One > particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a > point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, > including the precepts. I read out two posts from Sarah (44853 and > 44876) in which she quoted the Mahadhammasamadana Sutta. That sutta > explains that the third way of abstaining from misconduct causes us > to "experience grief and pain as a result" but ripens in the future > as pleasure. Sarah's examples were: ". . . by not harming insects, > one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or > our hypothetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a > result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very > generous but lost his wealth and suffered a lot." > > At first, I found it shocking that samadana sila - a kusala dhamma - > could cause grief and pain. But the important thing is, of course, > that it doesn't cause grief and pain by way of kamma, it does so by > way of natural decisive support condition. .... S: Yes, conditions are never simple. Good can condition bad by this condition and vice versa. Also, of course, akusala kamma can bring its result anytime with the support of this condition again. Without a basic understanding of kamma, it can seem that good acts bring bad results and so on, but this is wrong. As Nina’s post on wrong view (di.t.thi) in the Vism series stressed, wrong view about kamma is the most dangerous, because if one doesn’t have confidence in the connection between good deeds and results, one can do anything. .... > > Another initial inclination was to flatly reject any ability to > know, in conventional terms, what has been caused by what. But then > I had to admit; if the place is over-run by cockroaches, it is > because we didn't control them. If we bang our head against a brick > wall, we can safely assume that our sore head - and all the blood - > was caused by banging our head against a brick wall. This is > blatently obvious to most people, but not so to an Abhidhamma > extremist. :-) .... S: These examples are correct conventionally and according to our worldly understanding, but of course in terms of kamma and vipaka, the cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is never ‘the cockroaches’, ‘the person (ourselves or another) banging our head against a brick wall’, ‘the pilot’,‘the doctor’ or ‘the patient’. When we give these examples, they are long, long stories about so many different realities as you explained before. ..... > > I also had to back down on some of my earlier, inflammatory, > statements (to Azita and Rob K) in which I claimed that uninstructed > worldlings could never know when an activity was kusala or akusala. > Clearly, we can be pretty near certain that some conventional > activities are unwholesome. There, I've said it! :-) .... S: I think we can speculate and make a few assumptions and that’s about all. How difficult it is to know our own cittas at anytime, let alone another’s. For example,we know that when a gift is given, there must some dana or generosity involved, but it might be very, very slight, in spite of the ‘appearance’. I was given a lot of gifts from my students at the weekend which I truly appreciated but didn’t wish to keep, apart from one or two very small ones. So I passed on several larger ones which I’d never use to my p/t helper and she was delighted and thanked me profusely for my apparent kindness. In fact, there was very little generosity in my act, primarily concerned with clearing up the place after the party and avoiding extra clutter. Similarly, someone might kill a small, injured insect, fulfilling all the qualifications for akusala kamma patha, but without any premeditation or thoughts of dosa afterwards. Another might restrain but have lingering resentment lasting a long time over some trivial incident, but without any show. Who can judge? .... > > Now it is time for a walk along the beach (no surfing because the > waves are as flat as a pancake). I will be taking my new Portable > Mp3 player, on which is loaded "Benares 1 & 2." > See you later, and thanks for all the posts. ... S: That’s great news (the mp3 I mean). Now you can put those flat days to good use too:-). Mind you, I’m sure your flat days would look like great waves at Big Wave Bay in Hong Kong where we go most Sundays and only a few times a year see anything resembling Bondi. As for your reference to a lack of conciliatory style in another post – well, I’ve heard people complain when K.Sujin doesn’t appear to be conciliatory or to compromise at all. But isn’t that the strength of the Dhamma? Of course, we can speak with gentleness and metta whilst not compromising our understanding of the Dhamma.....Or again, we may ‘judge’ the situation and see others as being ‘stubborn’, ‘dogmatic’ and so on, but can only know our own intentions at such times. Back to wisdom and sincerity. Look forward to any more waves or flat day reports from Down Under. Metta, Sarah p.s glad to see you discussing the interesting Vism quote Kel raised. ======= 46450 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sara, > > When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread > (I will try to remember names next time). > > When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I > thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. ... S: Well, that gave me two clues:-). Larry & Howard. ... > I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was > listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this > group is isolated to the Theravadan version). > > > You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and > nibbana. This is the > same as the khandhas and nibbana." > > By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical > bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and > that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan > abdharama? .... S: Yes. Not just according to the Abhidhamma, but according to the Tipitaka and to what can be directly realised. btw, you've translated rupas as 'form/physical bodies' and sankhara khandha as 'intellect'. What do you understand by these terms or realities? Metta, Sarah ======== 46451 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? sarahprocter... Hi Charles, You wrote several posts addressed to Htoo, but he said he won't have internet access for several months, so you may wish to make a note of your posts and re-send them on his return. Let me just comment on a note in this one which was also addressed to me: --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah & Htoo > > Sarah, When Htoo stated: > > "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment > events." > > You replied with: > > "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or > akusala?" > > Htoo then replied with: > > "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of > ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage > of the whole circle temporarily." > AND > "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa > and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and > this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of > satipatthaana." > AND > "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." > > I have to ask and state: > > What is Satipatthaana? .... S: The path which leads to the eradication of ignorance through awareness and understanding of realities. .... > And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am > off base: > > Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still > events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO > continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated > (give rise to other events). ... S: Yes I think I agree (though I'm not sure about the use of 'events'), no new fuel, however. Also, when ignorance is completely eradicated, no further rebirth at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 46452 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Golden Statues? sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that > has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. > From Nibbana.com: > > Asannasatta Brahmas > <...> > James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist > texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's > next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness > whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can > imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings > without minds. Any answers, anyone? ... S: It is difficult. Further to Howard's and RobK's comments, you may also like to review these posts: Asannisattas (Non-percipient beings, i.e without cittas) 41065, 41101, 41124, 41138, 42545 It helps me a little to reflect that rupas are not just produced by citta and nutrition, but can also be produced by kamma and temperature too. This is another of Htoo's favourite topics...:-). Let us know how your reflections are going. I thought you raised good questions. Metta, Sarah ========= 46453 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Phil, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil and Sarah, > very good point, Phil. > It made me think about the view to take for sukha that is dukkha. I > found > the solution in Nyanatiloka dictionary under vipallaasa and looked what > the > sotaapanna has eradicated. He has eradicated the view, ditthi, that > dukkha > is happiness and that unpleasant is pleasant. ... S: yes, as you said, more under 'vipallasa' in U.P. As for the perversion of sanna, this arise with every akusala citta. So as soon as there is just a little attachment to what is seen, there is perversion of sanna (and citta). It seems desirable when really it's not. So most of the day is spent with perverted perception of reality. Ditthi actually 'distorts' as the quotes mentioned. 'The inverted grasp'. (I was glad to read the Tiika notes, Nina, as so often the comments about 'this alone is the truth, all else is vain' and references to dogmatism are taken erroneously as referring to any views, right or wrong. I'll be requoting from these notes!). .... > These four are: to see what is impermanent as permanent, to see what is > non-self as self, to see what is dukkha as happiness, to see what is not > beautiful (asubha) as beautiful. > This way of seeing can be done with saññaa, with citta and with > di.t.thi. > The Co. states that the perversity of saññaa is the weakest and di.t.thi > is > the strongest. ... S: yes, they remind me of the opposites at the beginning of ch X1V on sanna, citta and panna and the similes of the knowledge of the child, woman and money-changer. .... Phil, yes, like you mentioned Howard as saying, metta for all situations and karuna just when one sees someone's discomfort or difficulty, like a man on the top of some nasty spikes:-). I have to tell you that we've never experienced such kindness as we did from complete strangers in Japan on a walking trip there years ago. At the time, Japan was very expensive and we were living on station noodles and certainly avoiding taxis. I still remmember the kind old man who took pity on us with our back-packs and maps at Kyoto station and how he inisted on putting us in a taxi and taking us to an inexpensive hotel. And then all the people who drew us beautiful little diagrams and instructions and the bright plastic umbrellas which would appear anytime it started raining anywhere.... Thanks also for your good wishes and I hope you find the productivity you'd like....As I said to Al, satipatthana can develop either way:-). On TVs and K.Sujin's comments you quotes from years ago, Nina. I used to be so struck when I stayed with her and her father by her simple and ordinary her lifestyle wasnthen -- checking the morning radio program, getting dressed, telephone calls, breakfast, supervising her maid, going out with her father -- shopping, restaurant and so on. Sometimes a film, scrabble with her sister, newspapers, visitors, news programs, checking references for her lecture..... Even in India, we'd get back to the hotel from a visit to the holy places and she'd ask me or someone to help her find a news channel on tv to watch.... Visible object is visible object, hardness is hardness....attachment is attachment... "Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anatta." "...One stops doing anything". yes, life becomes very simple and uncomplicated when understanding begins to grow of dhammas as anatta. Tears -- listen to the last track (Calcutta section) in India 2004. I think it's Azita who raises your same question. Brief answer about how again we think of a 'situation' and only panna can know the reality at such a time, as Nina said. Btw, I read and appreciated the sutta, 'Bondage' you gave a link to (#36952) and also your nice little post on 'The Opportunity'. Thank you for that. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, 4 right efforts -- India 2001, KS is referring to the development of all 4 at moments of satipatthana and fulfillment with lokuttara cittas I believe....you mention that references to the 4 rt efforts also refer to other kusala which I understand, but when all 4 are being developed and references are to this (as under 4NT), I thought it was just to satipatthana? I'd be interested in any other references or clarification. A difficult area, I think. 46454 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 > Malunkyaputta Sutta .... S: I consider this to be a very valuable sutta as well and appreciated all your comments on it, Howard and also Tep's summaries. As you said, it’s very similar to the lines in the Bahiya sutta- “...in the seen there will be merely the seen....etc”. Tep, whether we refer to ‘the seen’ as ‘the seen’, as ‘visible object’ as ‘rupa’ or as ‘paramattha dhamma’, does it make any difference in your mind? If there is awareness of ‘the seen’ or the other dhammas mentioned, no names are necessary at all. We just use them for communication purposes only, wouldn’t you agree? I have a question to you both. At the beginning of the sutta, we read: > Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed > One > and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting > there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the > Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from > the > Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & > resolute." .... S: BB gives almost the same translation for the last line: “...I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.” (Pali: eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyanti”) And after hearing the Buddha’s advice about developing mindfulness, seeing dhammas for what they are, not being overwhelmed by attachment and thus becoming dispassionate and realizing nibbana, Malunkyaputta takes his leave and dwells alone etc, develops the highest wisdom and becomes an arahant. My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? One would assume that when it’s a reference to living as one (eko), that it is to physical seclusion, but this is a standard phrase in many of the suttas in this section of Salayatanasamyutta and perhaps, like it is clearly indicated in the Migajala sutta I recently mentioned, ‘eka-vihaariiti’ or living alone or on one’s own, clearly refers to the mental states of the one for whom craving as partner has been abandoned. Tep, I’m greatly appreciating your discussions with Rob, Nina and others on this topic. It’s often not easy at all, I find, to know exactly what’s being referred to. I actually appreciate your comments and perseverance on this topic a lot. We all learn from it. Please use whatever language you find helpful. You also mentioned to Howard that you appreciated his precise understanding in his analysis of the Malunkyaputta Sutta. You further wrote that ‘the difficulty is seen in successful implementation in the present moment.’ I think this is exactly right. Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 worlds, ‘atapi sampajanno satima’ can arise and develop instantly, being aware of one such dhamma at a time. I believe this is the way that we can really learn to understand what the meaning of viveka* or seclusion is. Are we all on the same track here so far? (btw, your Thai translation looked fine- v.helpful anytime you give notes from the Thai sutta or commentaries. (Also, thank you for adding Han Tun’s helpful notes on the Pali terms in the other thread). .... Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, 73,’Dhamma-viharin Sutta’– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu who ‘neglects seclusion...’. The Pali here for seclusion is ‘ekii bhaava”n vissajjeti’,‘lit: being alone, setting free’, I think. Perhaps this also refers to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of ‘the seen’ and so on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of freedom. B.Bodhi’s note on this part of the sutta: “It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, ‘Five Bases of Liberation’] the first four items are designated ‘bases of liberation’ and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.” In other words, we’re back to the important reminders about right handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that one should be in physical seclusion and far away from one’s books, teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? Of course, when there is any stage of insight attained, concentration and wisdom are yoked as you imply. There is ‘internal tranquillity’ too with each moment of awareness, regardless of whether samatha has been developed to the level of jhana or not, as I understand. Just as you say, as we learn to live alone or in ‘seclusion’, ‘lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem’. In other words, by living alone as islands with the ‘seen’, ‘heard’ and other dhammas, we can see that everything we find so important and precious comes down to these transitory, unsatisfactory dhammas or elements.....no self, no person at all. Thank you both for helping me to reflect further. Metta, Sarah *more on viveka, seclusion, solitude etc under ‘Solitude’ in U.P. ================================== 46455 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:06am Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kenhowardau Hi Kel, ---------------- K: > Of course it would be wrong to conclude sitting posture is required for enlightenment. However, it goes back to James's point about what is more conducive for an individual. Perhaps this elder has practiced while sitting a lot and didn't feel the current position (lying down) was as good. It begs the obvious question why didn't he just practice satipatthana anywhere/anytime as perhaps someone like him easily could. ----------------------------- As I understand the story you have quoted, Sangharakkhita had been practising satipatthana for a long time. He practised it in the course of every activity of his daily life and that was why he was able to say, "Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth". (From what you said earlier in this post, I think (not sure) that you would agree with this.) However, Sangharakkhita had not attained any stage of enlightenment. This was because he had an overriding ambition to pay respect to a Tathagata - and that required an extremely long wait (for Buddha Metteya) in samsara. Does that mean he had control over dhammas and could intentionally affect the non-arising of Magga-citta? No, it couldn't mean that. I think it meant there was an imbalance of faith over wisdom. How could Sangharakkhita have complete dispassion for, and renunciation of, conditioned existence when he knew that same conditioned existence was essential for his [kusala] ambition? Getting back to the beginning of your post: ------------------------ > KenH: To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense > (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a > conditioning factor for enlightenment? Kel: No, I'm not reading this too literally. I think this, however, goes to show it's insufficient to count on "conditions" only. ------------------------- But, Kel, there are only conditions (i.e., there are only conditioned dhammas). Can you count on anything apart from conditions and have right understanding at the same time? ----------------------------------------------- K: > Either way, there seems to be a big role choices play into whether or not one is successful. ----------------------------------------------- Either way (i.e., whether we believe it or not) there are only dhammas. A choice can *seem* to be made: e.g., we can pick up a pencil or not pick up a pencil - and Sangharakkhita could attain enlightenment or not attain enlightenment - but that is conventional reality. We mustn't import conventional reality into our understanding of the Dhamma. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there is no "choice" involved. Sangharakkhita would have known that beyond doubt. Even though you and I don't know it beyond doubt, the dhammas that arise whenever we are "making a choice" are still governed entirely by conditions. ------------------------ K: > Past conditions (paramis) plus the present action (bhavana) gives rise to enlightenment. If either one is missing then it's not going to happen. ------------------------ Hmmm, since when has bhavana been translated as "present action?" :-) Bhavana is panna, and it culminates as supramundane panna (of the Eightfold Path). But I agree, panna cannot be developed unless the paramis are also developed. ------------------------------------------------ K: > I think this highlights the need for intention and/or striving specifically toward enlightenment. ------------------------------------------------ There are suttas that specifically rule out the efficacy of striving towards enlightenment: it is a symptom of eternity belief. Wanting a happy rebirth, one strives for kusala kamma - believing in rebirth- in-Nibbana, one strives for enlightenment. There is no need to reintroduce striving as an additional factor leading to enlightenment. Just remember; there are only dhammas. :-) Ken H 46456 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! vvk63 sarah abbott wrote: Hi Venky, Many, many thanks for your great intro. --- vvk63 wrote: > I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . > > My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was > deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say > when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a > Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical > rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about > Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite > thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I > joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. > > Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . .V-. Thanks! for your response. I live in Mumbai with my parents, wife Hema nad two kids- my daughter Vibha (12 yrs) and son Varun (8 yrs). Well my family are habituated with rituals and I do not try to reason out with them as I feel self realisation is the best realisation. I do express my ideas when asked but I am happy that they have accepted what I am now because especially my parents, who are orthodox , it was difficult for me intially to explain the change in my lifestyle pertaining to the rituals. Well the major change came to me when I did Vipasanna at Igatpuri Centre of Shri.Goenka . It was 10 days residential course in Nov.'04 following the Noble Eightfold Path of Sila , Samadhi and Panna . S: I hope we hear plenty more from you. Do you still live in Mumbai (India)? How did your family respond to your new viewing of all the rituals? This may be interesting to Andrew L and others too. How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? The basic need was calming of the mind which is still bit difficult but with regular meditation in the morning and evening , am able to maintain the calmness for sometime. I understand by Vipasanna is to view things in their dhamma nature e.g the dhamma of fire has been ,is and will be to burn. It is the perceptions which create differences and differences disturbs harmony . Well thats again my perception isn'i it? I'm grateful to Buddhanet.com for leading you here! Do you have a pic for the album too? I will scan and add it Metta Venky <...> 46457 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:43am Subject: 'Metta' sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Prompted by your enquiries, Alan W (of Zolag) sent us a text copy of A.Sujin's book 'Metta' which we've put in the 'files' section for the time being until he reloads a copy onto Zolag. Look forward to any parts anyone finds helpful or wishes to discuss. Metta, Sarah ===== 46458 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/8/05 1:54:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. ====================== I agree that the objects of insight are the elements of "the all" - they are, in fact, the only actually occurring phenomena. They do, of course, include mental operations, and among those are the thought-operations of vitakka and vicara, feeling, and the various sankhara, including emotions. When one is an advanced practitioner, one directly discerns these phenomena, face-to-face as it were. But prior to that, they are seen, as is almost everything, though a veil, a conceptual overlay. The neophyte does not to any significant extent have these phenomena as objects of insight, but, instead, is building towards that. One begins where one is, not where one would hope to be. Eventually, with sufficient practice, cultivation and transformation occur, the mind is refined, and the obscuring veil is slightly lifted, which enhances the clarity of vision, leading to further mental cultivation, and, in that way, step by step, the practice becomes more and more a true practice of seeing what actually is and *how* it is. That the conceptual veil, the obscuration process, needs to be lifted is a certainty. That being said, I don't think the Buddha taught the distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." Instead, such distinguishing grows out of the practice of *looking* to see as clearly as possible, at any given time, what it is that is actually happening at the moment. And I do not think that the concept/reality dichotomy was the main thrust of the Buddha's teaching, though there are a few places at which the Buddha spoke of the distinction, for example in the Uraga Sutta and the Kalakarama Sutta, and implicitly in the Bahiya Sutta. He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are seen more in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the "real" practice has begun. This is my perspective. With metta, Howard . /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46459 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/8/05 6:22:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I have a question to you both. At the beginning of the sutta, we read: > Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed > One > and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting > there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the > Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from > the > Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & > resolute." .... S: BB gives almost the same translation for the last line: “...I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.â€? (Pali: eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyantiâ€?) And after hearing the Buddha’s advice about developing mindfulness, seeing dhammas for what they are, not being overwhelmed by attachment and thus becoming dispassionate and realizing nibbana, Malunkyaputta takes his leave and dwells alone etc, develops the highest wisdom and becomes an arahant. My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? ============================ I understand the seclusion intended to be twofold: 1) the conventional, bodily seclusion, which is very supportive, and 2) the deeper "internal seclusion" that leads to a sustained state of deep tranquillity and clarity, transforming the mind. BTW, it is clear to me from this material that in all likelihood, Malunkyaputta was already an ariyan prior to this "seclusion". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46460 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:28am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi Sarah, In a longer thread, I like your phrasing: "Without 'hearing' or coming across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and development (bhaavanaa)." Just two quick questions: 1. Is what one hear "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, say, what they had when they were six years old? Dan 46461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Dear Tep and Rob K, I would like to add a little to your discussion about paramattha dhammas. >> Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" >> too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas >> given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time >> (while He still lived)? ------- N: I would like to use a quote from Rob Edison, now Ven. Dhammanando: Rob Ed: “Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to say, the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different terms. "What the Commentaries call conventional truth (sammuti-sacca), the Suttas call 'worldly consensus' (lokasamañña), 'worldly language' (lokanirutti), 'worldly usage' (lokavohaara), or 'worldly convention' (lokapaññatti). "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta) ------- N: I would like to quote from Kindred Sayings I, Sagaathaavagga, 3, Sword suttas, 25, the Arahat (B.B. Connected Discourses): ..."If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, 'I speak', And he might say,'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expresions." ---- Note: Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. Spk: "Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a self, they do not violate conventional discourse by saying,'The aggregates eat, the aggregates sit, the aggregates' bowl, the aggregates' robe'; for no one would understand them."... --------- N: At the moment we study with Larry sankhaarakkhandha, all those cetasikas (except feeling and saññaa) that can accompany citta. This study helps us to see that they are mere elements that mutually condition one another. Kusala citta that is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas and supported by them arises just for a moment and then falls away, it is impermanent. Akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas such as lobha, dosa or moha. All these cetasikas have their own characteristic. They are not persons, not a self. They are cetasika, they are dhammas or elements. The Tiika text often refers to them as to 'this dhamma', so dhamma. We do not have to call them paramattha dhammas, we can also call them dhammas, they are devoid of self. This study helps us to go more deeply into the meaning of what ultimate realities are, different from conventional notions such as person, animal, tree. Nina. 46462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: four right efforts nilovg Dear Sarah, I am not sure whether it is only in satipatthana. Perhaps Dispeller gives more references? Nina. op 08-06-2005 10:28 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Nina, 4 right efforts -- India 2001, KS is referring to the > development of all 4 at moments of satipatthana and fulfillment with > lokuttara cittas I believe....you mention that references to the 4 rt > efforts also refer to other kusala which I understand, but when all 4 are > being developed and references are to this (as under 4NT), I thought it > was just to satipatthana? I'd be interested in any other references or > clarification. A difficult area, I think. 46463 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you quote Ven Dhammanando on the following: "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) =========================== This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. I wonder if you or anyone else on the list can locate this and provide the context. I would be most appreciative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46464 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? onco111 Howard, Google is a wonderful tool. I didn't have time to read through the page, but here's a link to ATIs version of the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html PTS lists it as MN.i.135. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you quote Ven > Dhammanando on the following: > > "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha- sacca) > Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when > the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato > thetato). > > E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > Belongs to self...." > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > =========================== > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. I wonder if you or > anyone else on the list can locate this and provide the context. I would be > most appreciative. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 46465 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi, Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > op 06-06-2005 17:56 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@g...: > > > > Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how > > pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter > > the discipline all at once. > ------------- > N: We are not arahats yet, and thus, there are conditions for worldly life, > worldly conversations. > But we can make the most of it: developing understanding exactly in the > midst of worldly life. I'm with you on this one, Nina, with one exception. Let me describe it. First of all, a little background info. When I first started practising insight meditation about this time in 2003, I was doing very well with it. I would take meditative walks, and at some points was able to see myself or my emotions as just energy. Then I began having some difficulties in practise, and results stopped, insight stopped. I felt a little bit 'out' of the discipline. Around this same time, I began smoking cigarettes. This brings me to today, where my meditation is not as good as it was in former times. Now, I have done some development of satipatthana, enough so that with the correct reflection or meditation, upon leaving my house, I can sort of feel in a transcendent manner, going through the world but not participating in it. 'Crossing over,' as it were. This 'mode' of behavior, in previous times, could be triggered by a good meditation session, which was common. So no big deal there. But now, it's much harder to have this mode. It has returned to me on a few occasions, namely after giving a material item to someone as generosity, and upon doing some self-reflection one day before program. Maybe satipatthana is the wrong word. Transcendence? I've done both so I could sort of get it together. The point is, it's rare for this state to manifest nowadays, and I can't summon it at will. When I am in it, I feel that I am my own, righteous man, who is unfortunate in that he lives with his parents. I used to get this state more often, and I would realize I could do recollection of the devas to foster rapture and calm and so forth, if I knew I would be able to be reborn there myself were I to die soon. However, I do not think that is the case, so I have thought I needed to build myself a 'shelter from anguish' as it is described in the texts. That means working. Unfortunately, when I get home, I don't serve myself well, if at all. If I could keep righteous behavior here and do that little thing for myself, or even foster the development of conviction, I would be a righteous man, eventually able to see the noble truths with "discriminating wisdom" (see Ratana sutta). But I digress. If i could be this way through reflection again, and serve myself, I think I would be walking a straight course and not have to engage in trying to understand myself in worldly activities at all. > Like life with your parents. As Sarah says, good if the relationship can > improve. > Indeed with metta and karuna and you will not regert that. > If you knew what problems I had with my father. But some years before his > death it all became better. Afterwards, when you become older, you see it > all differently and better understand conditions for people's behaviour. > Before long they are old enough to die and you may regret it if you did not > make up. > I never forget a lesson Kh. Sujin gave. In Sri Lanka we stayed with a lady > who critized Kh Sujin and I remarked that she did not like us. She answered: > it does not matter, we like her. > That is metta without expecting anything. It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life is short for all of us) > ------------- > A: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil > > because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it > > that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be > > evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of > > fear?.... > ---------------- > N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala roots. Fear > is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in moha, > ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are rooted in > lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some have moha, > ignorance, as their only root. > All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what has been > accumulated in the past. Nina I don't think you really answered the question but I'm not sure if it would help anyway. You say all akusala is rooted in these four things, but are these four things always akusala? Is it that that is the 'evil' nature of acting of them, or is it merely that it is through these four that we do other evil deeds, so say, acting out of fear to save one's life might be acceptable, whereas if it were just that acting out of fear is akusala, we should not do it so as to not develop any akusala. (Sort of like the Buddha telling his disciples not to break their virtue even if their life is in jeopardy.) > ---------- > A: If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem > > I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop > > indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of > > technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. > ----------- > N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to be > eradicated first. So long as you take craving for mine or self it is > impossible to eradicate it. We live our life naturally, as Sarah explained. > During computer activities, it is a good opportunity to know your own > cittas. Perhaps. Maybe we can get started helping me learn cittas again? If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of attachment. Well, I guess what that means is that I still do have wrong view. :P Sounds good. > ---------- > A: Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read > > about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on > > the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? > ----------- > N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are conditions > kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, such is > life. OK, but what is the cause for us to do these good deeds? Reading suttas, for example? If it is done out of a sense of duty or discipline, perhaps out of wholesome desire, it is not akusala. Basically if I don't want to read Digha Nikaya because I like it (don't want to act out of attachment), what better root can there be to motivate me to read it? > ------------ > > Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that > > is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the > > Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. > ----------- > N: There is no 'we' who could add practice at will. There have to be the > right conditions: first more intellectual understanding of what the objects > of satipatthana are: whatever dhamma arises can be the object, also akusala > dhamma. We should not despise that. We have to learn that everything is > dhamma. > ------------ > A. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one > > to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, > > and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least > > I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice > > on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take > > the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while > > still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is > > studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing > > mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our > > practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. > -------- > N:The lesson we also get from the sutta: know the citta that motivates > kusala and akusala. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to know > oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. Sounds mostly OK, but I would say to know one's intention before you act, you needn't know the whole citta or its cetasikes. > -------- > A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta > > to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > > painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, > > or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that > > will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two > > disciplines, it could be. > ----- > N: you wrote:< one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > painful>. > That is not enough. More important: to know feelings as non-self. Yes! Isn't this one of the main points of satipatthana and contemplation, to remove the idea of an enduring self? I know I have practised contemplation on the impermanence of feelings before and it certainly is a valid aspect of the practise. > They are > conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. > Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural > practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is taking > over. > Nina. Well this is kind of a grey area. I do not know exactly how to practise as I've not looked deeply into the Satipatthana sutta and its commentary, but behavioral exercises seem to be OK. I would still say we can start with idea of self to practise that which removes permanently the idea of self. I would give the simile of acting out of greed for that which helps one reduce greed, particlarly the meditation manual, "Mindfulness in Plain English." I think I would still practise willfully after reading about how it is to be practised in a book or two, and then doing it, probably with more idea of self that you would like, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It's the practise that leads to nibbana. 46466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to Arittha. I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes translations make a lot of difference. Nina. op 08-06-2005 16:31 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > .since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > Belongs to self...." > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > =========================== > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. 46467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, op 08-06-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: .....I don't think the Buddha taught the > distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." ... He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended > cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these > characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are > seen more > in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if > the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is > lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the > "real" > practice has begun. This is my perspective. --------- N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. Nina. 46468 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/8/05 12:43:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Howard, Google is a wonderful tool. I didn't have time to read through the page, but here's a link to ATIs version of the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html PTS lists it as MN.i.135. Dan ============================ Thanks for this suggestion, Dan. I tried a google search for the phrase on ATI, but to no avail. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46469 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 2:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to Arittha. I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes translations make a lot of difference. Nina. ======================= Thanks. Yes, I had the sutta, and I've seen it before. I just can't seem to find the phrase in it! Somehow I'm mising it. Could you please indicate where that denial of self is located, and perhaps also quote a bit of the larger text around it? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46470 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 2:50:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course. Understood. --------------------------------- Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: If you are speaking of an intellectual correct vision, I don't know that there should be. The Buddha didn't make much of the distinction. He certainly did talk a great deal about the khandhas and attending to them, but he also talked a lot about attending to merely conventional realities in many, many suttas. The distinction, one which I consider to be quite valid, BTW, seems only to have been made much of in the commentaries. I think the distinction is a valid one, but is not one that requires advance information about. --------------------------------------------- Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? ------------------------------------------- Howard: What is important is that we look and see. We needn't accept an untested theory. ------------------------------------------ One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Just contemplating conventional impermanence won't do it, nor will just contemplating claimed namic and rupic impermanence. But *directly seeing* that no sight, sound, taste, bodily sensation, feeling, etc, etc remains *will* do it. It is direct seeing that grows out of sustained practice as taught by the Buddha is what does it. ---------------------------------------- One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly agree with you here! ---------------------------------------- Insight is to be developed step by step. --------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly! --------------------------------------- If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. ----------------------------------------- Howard: The main intellectual understanding that is critical, as I see it, is understanding how the Buddha taught us to practice. I see the Eightfold Noble Path as a path of conventional practice. The Buddha taught us how to handle the Dhammic microscope: how to prepare the specimins, how to adjust the focus and the lighting, and how to then properly use our viewing equipment, and when the Buddha's specifications are carefully followed, the usually invisible realities, including the virulent microbes of defilement, will be clearly seen for exactly what they are. ----------------------------------------- Nina. ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46471 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Vism.XIV,165 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by the wind. Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped by the wind. It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should be regarded as distraction of consciousness. 46472 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK - Thank you for continuing the dhamma discussion that aims at getting your point across in a peaceful manner. RobK : Reflecting on the teaching can sound like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti. The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same -insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). Tep: The assumption you have made, "it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti.", sounds like a wishful thinking. I wish you were right so that you could reach Nibbana in this life without letting go of all sensual pleasures, belongings and family. RobK : Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. Tep: This is clearly the view of a sukkha-vipassaka (vipassana yanika). I can see that what you are talking about may be called "comprehending of the five aggregates by direct knowledge". But how would you abandon ignorance and craving-for-becomeing by "rubbing away" and "learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept" ? Further, how would you develop tranquillity and insight (samatha and vipassana) by direct knowledge in the "present moment"? And, lastly, how would you realize clear knowing and release through direct knowledge? The clues are in MN 149. [MN 149: "He comprehends through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge, abandons through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge, develops through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge, and realizes through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge." ] Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Tep, > I agree that vimutti is beyond us right now, but I don't see > thinking about the teaching (or the other 4 ways) as being > recommended only for arahants here > Indeed I think the sutta is indicating the 5 ways by which beings > can gradually attain vimutti. Reflecting on the teaching can sound > like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations > that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the > experience of nibbana, vimutti. > The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same - > insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and > rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). > > Take the sutta I cited earlier: > Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha- Kotthita asked Sariputta what > the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a > sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the > conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as > pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... > Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering > with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of > stream-winning.' > > 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be > pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' > 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be > pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a > boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not > self.""endsutta. > > Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is > beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. > Robertk 46473 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,165 upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/8/05 7:12:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46474 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina ( Howard and other DSG members) - > N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. > Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between > concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; > what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? > One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. > Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. Tep: I can't help thinking that you are making vipassana, especially contemplation on the five aggregates, too difficult because you are promoting the nitty-gritty details of paramattha dhamma. New Buddhists who want to contemplate the five aggregates might be scared away, if they have to become experts in the paramattha dhamma first ! The sutta approach to the panca khandha is straightforward. Rupa is the first aggregate, and nama means the remaining four aggragrates. There are countless number of suttas that never categorize rupa and nama into details as in a paramattha-dhamma book. For example, only the four basic elements (not the 18 elements - Vism. XIV, 32) and some of the 24 derived materialities are mentioned in the suttas; the 6 internal and 6 external bases(ayatanas) are referenced in the suttas; only a small number of sankhara (kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara) plus a subset of the 50 cetasikas are seen in the suttas; a small number of the 89 cittas were mentioned by the Buddha; concepts and ultimate realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. For example, DN 22 is one of the suttas that straightforwardly teach contemplation of the five aggreagtes, and it does not intimidate beginners. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > op 08-06-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > .....I don't think the Buddha taught the distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." ... He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are seen more in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the > > "real" practice has begun. This is my perspective. > --------- 46475 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - In an earlier message Howard wrote to Nina: >In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > you quote Ven. Dhammanando on the following: >"What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense >(paramattha-sacca) >Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously > when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." >> (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains > neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) Tep: I have checked the translation of this "Parable of the Water Snake" which is MN 22 (translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu). I did not find the "truth in the highest sense" statement that puzzled Howard and me. There is no evidence of such "truth" in MN 22 that supports the paramattha dhamma as being claimed by Dhammanando. The only part of this sutta that is "close" to the puzzling statement is the following. "Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?" MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to > Arittha. > I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. > I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes > translations make a lot of difference. > Nina. > > op 08-06-2005 16:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > .since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > > Belongs to self...." > > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > > =========================== > > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. 46476 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:08pm Subject: Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Dear Nina and Sarah, There were some other questions raised at Cooran that I might trouble you with - since you asked. Firstly there was the question; "Does a cetasika experience its object?" I would have thought the answer was clearly, yes. If I remember correctly, the introductory pages of ADL tell us, "Nama experiences an object; rupa doesn't experience anything." However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? Nina recently gave a quote in which Robert Eddison (as he then was) listed a number of such ways, but there was no mention of, "in detail." However, Robert Kirkpatrick has quoted a sutta (SN XXI.10), which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking about absolute (momentary) reality: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." That might be enough questions for this post, thank you. By the way, Sarah, you were asking about other people's test results: I can proudly identify myself as a fellow robot. I scored 0% extravert. How dull is that? :-) Ken H 46477 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/8/05 9:07:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I have checked the translation of this "Parable of the Water Snake" which is MN 22 (translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu). I did not find the "truth in the highest sense" statement that puzzled Howard and me. There is no evidence of such "truth" in MN 22 that supports the paramattha dhamma as being claimed by Dhammanando. The only part of this sutta that is "close" to the puzzling statement is the following. "Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?" ====================== Hmm, I missed that. What you found is certainly it, Tep! Perhaps what we have here is just a variation in translation. The two versions, while different, are also quite close. Both are strong "anti-self" statements, though Ven. Dhammanando's version is far, far more straightforward and definite of a statement. I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a fact. It would be important to know it. I would not be surprised if Ven D's translation is a very good one. However, inasmuch as Ven. T considers "not-self" to be just a strategy, and Ven. D is a very conservative, very "orthodox" Theravadin, each might have a subtle inclination to innocently bend the translation in a particular direction. It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a clarification for us. Sarah, is Jim Anderson on the list? Might he be of help? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46478 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah and Nina) - In a message dated 6/8/05 9:10:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? Nina recently gave a quote in which Robert Eddison (as he then was) listed a number of such ways, but there was no mention of, "in detail." However, Robert Kirkpatrick has quoted a sutta (SN XXI.10), which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking about absolute (momentary) reality: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." ========================== Ken this is a *very* interesting insight (in the conventional sense ;-) and a *very* interesting conjecture!! It would be fascinating to examine other usages of "in detail" or "in its details"!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46479 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {Attn. Howard and other members} - Thank you very much for reading my posts with exceptional attention to details. S: If there is awareness of `the seen' or the other dhammas mentioned, no names are necessary at all. We just use them for communication purposes only, wouldn't you agree? Tep: I agree with you that the most important thing is to get to the real dhamma regardless of what "language" (paramattha- or vohara- sacca) we are using -- it doesn't matter whether we use a raft or a boat to go to the the other shore. ------------------------- S: My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? Tep: You quoted the Pali: 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyanti'. I then used the Pali-text Society to get the following meanings. Ekodi = eka + odi : of one attention, limited to one point Eka = one alone Vupakattha = withdrawn, drawn away (from), secluded Appamatta = diligent, careful, heedful, vigilant, alert, zealous Pahinati [pa+hi, Sk. hinoti] to send Pahita2 [pp. of pahinati] sent pahit-atta "puts forth all his strength" Viharati (p. 642) [vi+harati] to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn (in a certain place) Viveka = detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" (of heart), discrimination (of thought) So the Pali phrase should mean: being alone and dwelling diligently, one puts forth strong effort to be alert (mindful). Therefore, I believe both bodily and mental seclusion are required. ------------------------------- S: I'm greatly appreciating your discussions with Rob, Nina and others on this topic. It's often not easy at all, I find, to know exactly what's being referred to. Tep: Thank you for your kind thought. But quite often I do not know what I do not know exactly, and so I do appreciate patience of Rob, Nina and others to bear with me. --------------------------------- S: Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 worlds, `atapi sampajanno satima' can arise and develop instantly, being aware of one such dhamma at a time. Tep: I believe it is the reverse of what you said is what I understand : i.e. with constant practicing or development of sati-sampajanna and right exertion, the monk becomes `atapi sampajanno satima', and the consequence is what you said :"understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment". That is the main difference or "disagreed point" between us. I believe that understanding (samma-nana) follows samma-samadhi, and samma-samadhi is supported by samma-sati and samma-vayama (including the other path factors). Yours is the opposite. Right? S: Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, 73,'Dhamma-viharin Sutta'– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu who `neglects seclusion...'. The Pali here for seclusion is `ekii bhaava"n vissajjeti',`lit: being alone, setting free', I think. Perhaps this also refers to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of `the seen' and so on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of freedom. Tep: Yes, you're right. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not "one who dwells in the Dhamma". Thus, he does not develop direct knowledge of the realities. S: B.Bodhi's note on this part of the sutta: "It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, `Five Bases of Liberation'] the first four items are designated `bases of liberation' and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation." S: In other words, we're back to the important reminders about right handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that one should be in physical seclusion and far away from one's books, teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? Tep: I am lost here, Sarah. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation so I don't understand the two cases. S: Just as you say, as we learn to live alone or in `seclusion', `lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem'. In other words, by living alone as islands with the `seen', `heard' and other dhammas, we can see that everything we find so important and precious comes down to these transitory, unsatisfactory dhammas or elements.....no self, no person at all. Tep: I think we agree here in principle, but the detail of how we do it may be different. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 > > Malunkyaputta Sutta > .... > S: I consider this to be a very valuable sutta as well and appreciated all > your comments on it, Howard and also Tep's summaries. As you said, it's > very similar to the lines in the Bahiya sutta- > "...in the seen there will be merely the seen....etc". > 46480 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165 nilovg Hi Howard, op 09-06-2005 01:48 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: Wait and see what else is coming. There is much more to it. The Tiika explains that also the accompanying dhammas are restless. We can see how far going its influence is! Is there agitation at this moment? It arises with each akusala citta. Nina. 46481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, Do not fear, Ven. Dhammanando is great in Pali, a real adept. I have the Pali text and, though only a beginner, will look at it again. But first I have to go along with 'agitation'. I have to finish it before our trip on Sunday until Thursday. Nina. op 09-06-2005 03:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really > adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a > clarification for us. 46482 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:23pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 216 - Akusala Cetasikas Intro(a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction] Akusala citta and akusala cetasika are akusala dhammas, dhammas which are unskilful, unprofitable, unclean, impure. Do we realize when there is akusala citta? Whenever the citta is not intent on wholesomeness, we act, speak or think with akusala citta. We may not have unkind thoughts or thoughts of coarse desire, but the cittas which think can still be akusala cittas; they are akusala cittas whenever we do not think wholesome thoughts. We think time and again of people, of things which have happened or will happen, and we should find out for ourselves when thinking is kusala and when akusala. When we are “daydreaming”, do we think wholesome thoughts? If that is not so, then the cittas are akusala cittas. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas Intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46483 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Dan (& **for Howard, *for Sukin & all) --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In a longer thread, I like your phrasing: "Without 'hearing' or coming > across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a > teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't > be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and > development (bhaavanaa)." > > Just two quick questions: > 1. Is what one hear "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? ... S: I’d say one hears a description of the truth, but the understanding sees the value, comprehends to some degree theoretically in the first place and begins to know the truth directly*. ..... > 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's > teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, > say, what they had when they were six years old? ... S: They can develop a deeper understanding at some level – for example, they can know a lot about good and bad, about the danger of clinging to sense objects and so on. Jhanas were obtained without any assistance from the Buddha’s teachings as we read about. But, no understanding of namas and rupas as elements, no understanding of anatta. I’m sure you’ve seen the quote from Dispeller about how there can be an understanding of impermanence and suffering without a Buddha, but not an understanding of anatta. Also, this understanding of impermanence and suffering is not of the deepest meaning of the impermanence and suffering of dhammas, but it is the understanding we have conventionally of change and of dukkha dukkha, the unpleasant bobily and mental feelings. Someone who hasn’t come across the Buddha’s teachings might be able to tell you that clearly seeing sees visible object, but still there’s an idea of ‘my’ seeing of visible objects or ‘my body’ or ‘my elements’ which are seen. As it said in the sutta in SN 3:11, ‘Seven Jatilas’,: “It is by discussion with someone...that his wisdom is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” [I can give a lot more detail on this from another sutta if anyone is interested which I hope they are - I'd like to expand on what I wrote in Musings1!] If it wasn’t necessary to hear the teachings first, why would the Buddha have taught for so long and in such detail? Please help me to understand your ideas better in more detail. As Nina just wrote too: **** >N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold,feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However,we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised.< ***** Disagreements so far?? Metta, Sarah * From Nyanaponika’s commentary notes to the Alagadduupama Sutta From the commentary, 3 kinds of pariyatti: “....There are, to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer’s (or store-keeper’s) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti)” It then goes on to describe how the first kind of study or pariyatti is for fame and gain and is ‘the wrong grasp’. I like this: “but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all”. The second way is by fulfilling morality when it’s the subject, letting concentration take root when it’s the subject and establishing himself in insight when it’s the subject. This is “studying for the sake of crossing over” as expressed in the simile of the Raft. The third way of study is the arahant’s, who like the treasurer, he studies the teachings “as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity”. ========== ** Nyanaponika’s translation: “Since in truth and, in fact, self and self’s property do not obtain.....” ======== 46484 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:54am Subject: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the Dhamma sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I’d like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in mind**. ..... ‘Heard with the Ear’ (AN, 4s, 191, PTS) “ ‘Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana”m), from considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view. What are the four? Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and the rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*. Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.’” ..... [S: digression from 4s, 186 ‘Approach’ (Ummagga) On the meaning of ‘mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by heart: “...’Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called ‘one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.’” Also on the meaning of ‘penetrative wisdom’: “....a monk hears it said: ‘This is Ill.’ By wisdom he penetrates the meaning of that saying and sees that it is so. He hears it said: “This is the arising of Ill...This is the ending of Ill... This is the practice going to the ending of Ill.’ By wisdom he penetrates the meaning of that saying and sees that it is so. Thus, monks, he is learned, of penetrative wisdom.’” ..... S: So I think so far we have some clear descriptions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha (or of suta-mayaa-pa~n~naa, cintaa-mayaa pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa) in these sutta extracts.] ..... Back to ‘Heard with the Ear’ “He making an end with memory confused is reborn in a certain company of devas. There the happy ones recite to him Dhamma-verses. Slow to arise in him, monks, is memory, but that being very quickly reaches excellence. “ A second similar example is given whereby he hears a monk teaching to a company of devas. Again he is reminded of the Dhamma-Vinaya. “It is just as if a man skilled in the sound of drums, while going along the highroad, should hear the sound of a drum. He would have no doubt or uncertainty as to whether it was the sound of a drum or not, but would just conclude that it was so. In the same way, monks, a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya and the rest. Those teachings heard with the ear.....are thoroughly penetrated by view....Slow to arise in him, monks, is memory, but that being very quickly reaches excellence.” Two more similar examples or advantages are given. After the last one, the following favourite analogy is given: “It is just as if two playmates who used to play at mud-pies together were to meet some time or other. Then one of them says to the other: “Say, old man, do you remember this? Do you remember that?’ And the other replies: ‘I do indeed remember, old man! I do indeed remember!’ Just in the same way, monks, a monk masters Dhamma....those teachings are thoroughly penetrated by view...that being very quickly reaches excellence.” Metta, Sarah *The ninefold division or classification of the teachings (Angas). According to the commentaries, the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka is included in the Veyyaakara.na (Expositions)]. ..... ** From Nyanaponika’s commentary notes to the Alagadduupama Sutta From the commentary: “....There are, to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer’s (or store-keeper’s) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti)” It then goes on to describe how the first kind of study or pariyatti is for fame and gain and is ‘the wrong grasp’. I like this: “but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all”. The second way is by fulfilling morality when it’s the subject, letting concentration take root when it’s the subject and establishing himself in insight when it’s the subject. This is “studying for the sake of crossing over” as expressed in the simile of the Raft. The third way of study is the arahant’s,who like the treasurer, he studies the teachings “as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity”. =================================================== 46485 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, again, to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I want to give more thought to your remark. op 09-06-2005 01:48 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: When a Pali term is explained and then literally translated into English, it comes out strange sometimes. No wonder people fall over it. Here agitation, uddhacca.m, is explained as uddhatabhaavo, the nature of having been lifted up too high, being out of balance (in PED). Uddhata is p.p. of uddharati, to lift up. It is said in PED that uddhacca is a gerund made into a substantivum. Uddha means high. Thus uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. Then the Tiika adds: because of this dhamma the citta or the accompanying dhammas are agitated. We often see: by this dhamma it itself is of this quality, and it also makes the accompanying dhammas in that way. Many words are used but the main thing is understanding its characteristic. Please jump at it any time when a translation looks strange. It is a good opportunity to go deeper into the meaning of dhammas. I shall use it for my study. Nina. 46486 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: 'Metta' - Metta as a de-clinger philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for following up on "Metta", and thanks to Alan W for sending it along. I dipped in and pulled the following passge out. I will do so now and then: "This is daily life which should really be investigated. When mett?Edoes not arise citta is infatuated by objects, it delights in objects all the time. If there is no awareness we do not know when there is lobha. The clinging to the different objects which are experienced will condition our behaviour, our actions through body and speech, and then we can find out that there is no mett?E When we have learnt through our own experience the characteristic of lobha and of mett?Ewhen they arise, we can compare them and clearly know their difference." This is interesting. We tend to think of metta as something sweet that is all about being kind to other people, but there is also this aspect of metta as adosa that accompanies alobha with all kusala cittas...so metta helps us to become detached, which is the whole point of studying Dhamma. But I think metta practice without right understanding can condition lots and lots of lobha. Metta, Phil > Prompted by your enquiries, Alan W (of Zolag) sent us a text copy of > A.Sujin's book 'Metta' which we've put in the 'files' section for the time > being until he reloads a copy onto Zolag. > > Look forward to any parts anyone finds helpful or wishes to discuss. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 46487 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) philofillet Hello Nina and all > i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? Lobha is akusala and chanda can be either akusala or kusala. Since there is akusala far more often than kusala, safe to say that chanda is akusala more often than not. > ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda > and lobha? Today I was listening to a talk in which Azita asked about this. Kh Sujin answered as above. One is kusala and the other is akusala. Sarah added that the lobha follows on after the kusala chanda very quickly. We do something with chanda than feel pleased about it and that is lobha. But I would say we shouldn't think too much about that. I've learned that akusala can condition kusala and I would say that feeling good about a good deed could be one such case. But it could get out of hand. If chanda is used as a cover-all to escape from questions about wrong view/practice it is dangerous. We had a visitor last year here who finally became a bit cross when people questioned his way of meditating (and teaching meditation) and said that DSG was pessimistic, hopeless etc. He used the word chanda a lot to defend his practices instead of looking at them objectively. On the other hand, Nina does point out in her book that chanda *is* necessary in the beginning when starting to meditate, develop jhanas. It seeks the meditation object. Back to the question. How does one know the difference? Maybe we can use the chocolate cake test. If we enjoy chocolate cake but don't get irritated when we can't have it, there isn't too much lobha. (I learned this from a humorous Tibetan nun, Phema Chodron - something like that.) Can we lay down our dhamma books or not meditate for a few days and not get irritated by the absence? In my case, I would get irritated if I couldn't read my Samyutta NIkaya anthology in the morning so that is a sign that there is a lot of lobha in my Dhamma study. The chanda then would be unwholesome. > iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform > wholesome deeds? If they are wholesome, there is kusala chanda, but lobha can quickly follow. I need to re-read Deeds of Merit. If, for example, a parent donates to a temple in the hope of his or her child getting into a good university, which often happens in Japan, would that be considered a wholesome deed by virtue of the recipient of the donation, even though self-interest was involved on the part of the donor? > > iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana > cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamån?E> cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say > that the latter types are neither wholesome nor > unwholesome? Not correct. They are either wholesome or unwholesome, not neither nor. > > v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or pú`i > can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards > akusala and thus entirely different? Because we don't want to waste this precious opportunity to benefit from the Buddha's teaching by getting caught up in practices based in wrong view. It is so easy for people to forget that energy (virya) and enthusiasm (piti) are not always wholesome and are in fact usually unwholesome - they have such wholesome connotations in our culture. > > vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the > development of the Path? In what way? Well, understanding virya better will help to condition wholesome virya, and since wholesome virya is right effort, a path factor will begin to be developed. That applies to other path factors as well though. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina or anyone else. Metta, Phil 46488 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Howard, and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I'd like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > mind**. > ..... Uh-Oh, Howard, I think it might be time again for the 'Jhana Post' you sent to Sarah before. Remember, the one that goes on for pages and pages with quotes about the Buddha speaking the benefits of jhana? ;-)) I think Sarah called it a 'Jhana attack'. :-)). But...on second though...Sarah will just respond with "Oh yes, but remember that there are two definitions of jhana...blah, blah, blah." Like the Buddha ever really mean that second definition! On second thought, might as well not bother. Metta, James 46489 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 216 - Akusala Cetasikas Intro(a) philofillet Hello all > Akusala citta and akusala cetasika are akusala dhammas, dhammas > which are unskilful, unprofitable, unclean, impure. Do we realize > when there is akusala citta? I liked it when Kh Sujin (or someone) said that dosa (aversion) is easier to know than lobha (greed, attachment) because it appears as the enemy. Always easier to recognize an outright enemy than an enemy who appears in a pleasant light. >. When we are "daydreaming?E do we > think wholesome thoughts? If that is not so, then the cittas are > akusala cittas. I appreciated reading a sutta in Samyutta Nikaya the other day that teaches us that thoughts of harming others, thoughts of sensual desire should be replaced by thoughts of the four noble truths. I don't care whatsover about the "should" not being kosher. If this sutta conditions a movement away from thoughts of lust to thoughts of the four noble truths, this should is good. It is the Buddha's teaching that has planted the "should" in our mind - it is not-self and will arise to help us or fail to arise to help us in a conditioned, unpredictable way. I will be posting more thoughts on this when I get back to Howard's Yentl (?) quotation post - Saturday, I guess. Metta, Phil 46490 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/9/05 12:04:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: Wait and see what else is coming. There is much more to it. The Tiika explains that also the accompanying dhammas are restless. We can see how far going its influence is! Is there agitation at this moment? It arises with each akusala citta. Nina ==================== I know there is more, Nina. I'm just kidding around! I simply find the sort of language use that adds nothing to one's understanding a bit amusing. It occurs noticeably, it seems, in the Abhidhamma and in the commentaries in particular. (But the Buddha himself on occasion in the suttas said such things as, to paraphrase, "knowing knows, and that is why it is called knowing" (with regard to vi~n~nana). With metta, Howard P.S. I'll be leaving in a couple hours for an extended-weekend trip. Probaby I'll be incommunicado until Sunday night or Monday. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46491 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/9/05 12:17:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Do not fear, Ven. Dhammanando is great in Pali, a real adept. I have the Pali text and, though only a beginner, will look at it again. But first I have to go along with 'agitation'. I have to finish it before our trip on Sunday until Thursday. Nina. ==================== Thank you very much, Nina. I would very much appreciate a careful analysis and comparison of the 2 translations being done. I would find it edifying if Ven. dhammanando's translation were right on target. To me it is crystal clear that the Buddha saw "no self" as a fact and not only strategy, though he was very careful about how he broached the matter to people. (Folks need to discover truth directly and not as a mere matter of assenting to theory. Also, belief in self, in the person and in the world, is so deep seated that a teaching of no self is easily misunderstood as nihilist and can be terrifying.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46492 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner ... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/9/05 4:43:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: ** Nyanaponika’s translation: “Since in truth and, in fact, self and self’s property do not obtain.....â€? ==================== Ahh, excellent!! Thank you, Sarah! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46493 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Sarah - I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? Kind regards, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, and Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > I'd like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > > mind**. > > ..... > > Uh-Oh, Howard, I think it might be time again for the 'Jhana Post' you > sent to Sarah before. Remember, the one that goes on for pages and > pages with quotes about the Buddha speaking the benefits of jhana? > ;-)) I think Sarah called it a 'Jhana attack'. :-)). But...on second > though...Sarah will just respond with "Oh yes, but remember that there > are two definitions of jhana...blah, blah, blah." Like the Buddha > ever really mean that second definition! On second thought, might as > well not bother. > > Metta, > James 46494 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 5:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for shining your spotlight on the no-self issue and for pointing out that translators may distort the original meanings because of innocence (and possibly, intention). Thanks to Nina for promising to investigate the original text. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Sarah) - > (snipped) > Perhaps what we have here is just a variation in translation. The two > versions, while different, are also quite close. Both are strong "anti- self" statements, though Ven. Dhammanando's version is far, far more straightforward and definite of a statement. I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a fact. It would be important to know it. I would not be surprised if Ven D's translation is a very good one. However, inasmuch as Ven. T considers "not-self" to be just a strategy, and Ven. D is a very conservative, very "orthodox" Theravadin, > each might have a subtle inclination to innocently bend the translation in a particular direction. It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a clarification for us. > Sarah, is Jim Anderson on the list? Might he be of help? 46495 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Dear Howard, Tep, Nina & all, Whilst waiting for Nina's further analysis, you may like to read the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of the following (MN22 #25) Pali ==== 37. Attani và bhikkhave sati' attaniya"n me'ti assàti? 'Eva"n bhante.' Attaniye và bhikkhave sati 'attà me'ti assàti? Evaü bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamàne2 yampida"n3 diññhiññhàna"n 'so loko so attà, so pecca bhavissàmi nicco dhuvo sassato avipariõàmadhammo, sassatisamaü tatheva ñhassàmã'ti, nanàya bhikkhave kevalo paripåro bàladhammoti? 'Ki"n hi no siyà bhante, kevalo paripåro4 bàladhammo'ti. ..... Translation ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self, would there be what belongs to my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views, namely, 'The self and the world are the same; after death I shall be permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change; I shall endure as long as eternity' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching?" ...... Metta, Sarah ========= 46496 From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard & Tep, Howard: > I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually > there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a > fact. It would be important to know it. Here is the Pali: attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) And seven translations: ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." Robert Eddison: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." Mahamakut Tipi.taka: "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a reality] Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law seem to me to be completely off the map, while the remaining five seem more or less defensible as far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamaane"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined -- or at least influenced -- by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamaane. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. Phew! Just to make things a little more complicated, it also has the negative particle na ('not') placed at the front, which then changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word anupalabbhamaane. The difference between my old rendering and the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if he is reading this. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? concepts and realities. nilovg Hi Howard, I just take out a few points of your mail. op 08-06-2005 23:53 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between > concept and paramattha dhamma? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If you are speaking of an intellectual correct vision, I don't know that > there should be. The Buddha didn't make much of the distinction. He certainly > did talk a great deal about the khandhas and attending to them, but he also > talked a lot about attending to merely conventional realities in many, many > suttas. The distinction, one which I consider to be quite valid, BTW, seems > only > to have been made much of in the commentaries. I think the distinction is a > valid one, but is not one that requires advance information about. > --------------------------------------------- N: This is an important point that should be discussed more. Preferably from different angles. Especially when reading Kindred Sayings IV, Salaayatanavagga, I think that the Buddha emphasized knowing one dhamma at a time through one of the six doors. He also spoke about ayatanas: sensefields. Ayatana: meeting or association of sense object and doorway at one point so that the appropriate sense-cognition arises. When we really understand this, I believe that the difference between ultimate reality and concept becomes clearer. We also understand better that only one dhamma can be experienced at a time. When we understand and can begin to be aware of what appears through eyes, visible object, it will be clearer that visible object is not a concept. When I use the word concept, I mean not merely a word or name to denote something but also the idea behind it that is denoted. The three characteristics are characteristics of ultimate realities, not of concepts. Let us now take anatta. We gradually learn that visible object is only a dhamma, that seeing is only a dhamma. Only an element that arises already because of conditions, before we can do anything about it. Only a nama, only a rupa. This is the beginning of correct understanding of anatta. We are still holding on, and more detachment is needed to experience the falling away of dhammas. When we hold on we cannot see their falling away, their impermanence. ------- > Howard: But *directly > seeing* that no sight, sound, taste, bodily sensation, feeling, etc, etc > remains *will* do it. It is direct seeing that grows out of sustained practice as > taught by the Buddha is what does it. > ---------------------------------------- N: But first we have to really understand what sight, sound, etc. really are. Otherwise we cannot see that they do not last. We think we know, but we mix them with shape and form, ideas about persons and things; ideas we have since our birth and before that, since many, many lives. We should not underestimate the wrong view we have accumulated. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > The main intellectual understanding that is critical, as I see it, is > understanding how the Buddha taught us to practice. I see the Eightfold Noble > Path as a path of conventional practice. -------- N: Hard to swallow that it is conventional practice. Perhaps you mean something different from what I think of conventional. ------- H: ... when the Buddha's specifications are > carefully followed, the usually invisible realities, including the virulent > microbes of defilement, will be clearly seen for exactly what they are. > ----------------------------------------- N: Defilements are conditioned namas, elements, mere dhammas and they should be seen as such, they should be objects of insight. There are there before we can blink our eyes. There are so fast, no time to do anything. But I agree with you that kusala can be cultivated, thus, that something *can* be done. No hopelessness or helplessness. Only developed paññaa can eradicate defilements. Seeing them as they are is accomplished with detachment. Paññaa and detachment go together, always. Nina. 46498 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? onco111 Dear Dhammanando Bhikkhu, So, like the son of a barren woman, a true, firm "self" is not to be found. Thanks for the splendid exegesis. Dan > Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive > voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With > the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would > be "not to be found." > > Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be > familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: > > va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. > "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." > > (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a > barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be > predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. > > And here arises the first point of controversy among > translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase > "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? > ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A > mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. > Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not > pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and > would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that > is too inscrutable to say anything about. > > To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a > present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or > more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this > present participle is inflected in the locative case, then > various meanings are possible, and here arises the second > point of controversy. What function does the locative have > in this context? There are three possibilities: > > Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a > non-obtaining of self..." > > Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of > self...." > > Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." > > ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for > the other two would leave a loophole that there might be > some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of > course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism > intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions > determining how we translate. > > Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; > theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has > these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into > adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits > of the above translations, or even if there is a difference > between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in > truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in > your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word > anupalabbhamaane. > > The difference between my old rendering and the > ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to > be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N > & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self > and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering > is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord > better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be > interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if > he is reading this. > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando 46499 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Venerable Dhammanando - I really appreciate the informative explanation that completely clears away my confusion. Thank you for this special message. I have to admit that I am not a language expert either in English or Thai, and my Pali knowledge is at elementary level. Having said that, I would like to offer a humble opinion as follows. I think an English translation for 'doey khwaam pen khong jing' may be "as a real thing", and an English version for 'doey khwaam pen khong thae' should be "as a genuine thing". "As a truth" is also a fine translation for 'doey khwaam pen khong jing' . My humble opinion is that 'saccato thetato' should be translated as "really truthful". [sacca = real, true; saccato = truly, and thetato = in truth.] I can see that it has nothing to do with "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In ammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu" wrote: > Dear Howard & Tep, > (snipped) > > Mahamakut Tipi.taka: > "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu > ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen > khong thae..." > [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the > appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a > reality] > > Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: > "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen > mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong > thae..." > [When both self and things connected with self cannot be > apprehended as a truth and as a reality] > > (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with > how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, > do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen > khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). > 46500 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your prompt, clear, and cheerful reply. > > 1. Is what one hears "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? > ... > S: I'd say one hears a description of the truth... I'd say so too. > ...but the understanding sees the value, comprehends to some degree theoretically in the first place and begins to know the truth directly*. Huh? You lost me here. You seem to be merrily but guardedly gliding off on a tangent after answering the question so neatly in the first half of your sentence. Never mind, let's continue below. > ..... > > 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's > > teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, > > say, what they had when they were six years old? > ... > S: They can develop a deeper understanding at some level I would certainly agree with this. > – for example, they can know a lot about good and bad Certainly. It is not so easy or common, but a lot of non-Buddhists understand that "kamma" refers to the viññana rather than the actual physical manifestation or act itself and that the distinction between kusala and akusala is found in cetasikas rather than any external upholding (or breaking) of precepts, "commandments", rituals, or spiritual exercises. The language is of less importance than the underlying realities that are being described. It makes no difference at this stage whether or not the underlying reality is described as "kamma" or "karma" or "works"; "viññana", "motivation", or "heart"; "akusala" or "sinful"; "kusala" or "pure"; "silabbataparamasa" or "works righteousness"; "sila" or "law". It is quite possible for someone who has never heard any Buddhist terms or conceptualizations to have deeper insight into silabbataparamasa and be able to explain it more clearly than a devout Buddhist who can discuss in great detail and intricacy the conceptual framework of long racks of Pali terms. > about the danger of clinging to sense objects and so on. Yup. > Jhanas were obtained without any assistance from the Buddha's > teachings as we read about. Yup. > But, no understanding of namas and rupas as elements, no understanding of anatta. Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic of reality. I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what 99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. At the deepest levels, though, the Buddhist conceptual framework is required if enlightenment is to be attained. This is just an introduction. I'm running out of time to do any sort of justice to these issues today, but they are important and I intend to post more about them soon. I need to rush through the rest of your great post now but will revisit later. > Someone who hasn't come across the Buddha's teachings might be able to > tell you that clearly seeing sees visible object, but still there's an > idea of `my' seeing of visible objects or `my body' or `my elements' which > are seen. Usually, but not always. > If it wasn't necessary to hear the teachings first, why would the Buddha > have taught for so long and in such detail? Please help me to understand > your ideas better in more detail. Good descriptions are necessary to consolidate shallower insights and provide a firmer foundation for deeper insight. No doubt about it. Even further, Buddha found a path all the way to enlightenment. How could he do anything other than describe it? It is OF COURSE helpful to hear: "Reality is not what a deluded mind makes it out to be; here's a description..." "Oooo... I catch glimpses of that every once in while, but most of the time I'm in a deluded state." Nina's take: "Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised." Yes, if you refer to the "supramundane path"; no, if you refer to everything else in Buddhism. Perhaps more on this later. > Disagreements so far?? Yes, touched on later. Metta, Dan 46501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Venerable Bhante Dhammanando, Thank you very much for your translations. I admire the thorough and objective manner of your way of comparing these seven translations. We can learn from such an approach. I frwd your post to Suan. With appreciation and respect, Nina. op 09-06-2005 17:24 schreef dhammanando_bhikkhu op dhammanando@...: > Here is the Pali: > > attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane > (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the > puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) > > And seven translations: 46502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the Dhamma nilovg Dear Sarah, very good quotes, thank you. Appreciating, Nina. op 09-06-2005 11:54 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I’d like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > mind**. > ..... > ‘Heard with the Ear’ (AN, 4s, 191, PTS) > 46503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Metta' - Metta as a de-clinger nilovg Hi Phil, very good idea to quote from Metta now and then. We can't have enough reminders, ever. I like this one and your remarks. Nina. op 09-06-2005 12:18 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > "This is daily life which should really be investigated. When > mett?Edoes not arise citta is infatuated by objects, it delights in > objects all the time.... > >... But I think metta practice without > right understanding can condition lots and lots of lobha. 46504 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:55pm Subject: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran Dear Dhamma friends, Please help me. :) Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first meeting: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. With much appreciation. 46505 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "axtran" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > Please help me. :) > > Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first > meeting: > > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > their cause > and their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html > > Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to > imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . > > Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why > the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. > > With much appreciation. ============ Hello axtran, Something to consider ..... "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya Mahávagga: Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá Tesam hetum Tathágato áha Tesañ ca yo nirodho Evamvádí mahásamano. Of things originating with conditions, The Tathágata has told the condition, And what their cessation is. The Great Recluse speaks thus. Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its hetu -- it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their individual hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda'. Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of avijjá." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm metta, Christine ----The trouble is that you think you have time--- 46506 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello axtran, > > Something to consider ..... > > "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya > Mahávagga: > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > Tesam hetum Tathágato áha > Tesañ ca yo nirodho > Evamvádí mahásamano. > Of things originating with conditions, > The Tathágata has told the condition, > And what their cessation is. > The Great Recluse speaks thus. > > Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend > upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of > these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any > paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its hetu -- > it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu > is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that > are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their individual > hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are > hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no > hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, > have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), > therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda > (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus > mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda'. > Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and > when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all > hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of avijjá." > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm > > metta, > Christine Dear Christine, The point that those people made was that in the first line: Whatever phenomena arise from cause phenomena is plural, but cause is singular. Please explain more . Is "dhammá" plural, and "hetuppabhavá" is singular in this case ? With metta, Alex Tran 46507 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "axtran" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello > axtran, > > > > Something to consider ..... > > > > "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya > > Mahávagga: > > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > > Tesam hetum Tathágato áha > > Tesañ ca yo nirodho > > Evamvádí mahásamano. > > Of things originating with conditions, > > The Tathágata has told the condition, > > And what their cessation is. > > The Great Recluse speaks thus. > > > > Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend > > upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of > > these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any > > paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its > hetu -- > > it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu > > is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that > > are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their > individual > > hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are > > hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no > > hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, > > have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), > > therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda > > (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of > > paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus > > mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda'. > > Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and > > when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non- seeing > of > > paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all > > hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of > avijjá." > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Dear Christine, > > The point that those people made was that in the first line: > Whatever phenomena arise from cause > > phenomena is plural, but cause is singular. > > Please explain more . Is "dhammá" plural, and "hetuppabhavá" is > singular in this case ? > > With metta, > Alex Tran =========== Hello Alex, The Pali (the original) is clear. Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá Of things originating with conditions Both are plural. metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 46508 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello Alex, > > The Pali (the original) is clear. > > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > Of things originating with conditions > > Both are plural. > > metta > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Dear Christine, Thank you. I need to study Pali. :) With Metta, Alex 46509 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James and Sarah - > > I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking > about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? > > Kind regards, > > Tep You can find information about them in the Useful Posts in the Files section under the category heading of "Jhana- Two Meanings". Metta, James ps. I don't argue it because I don't know a single Pali word which has only one meaning (and most of them have several)! ;-)) 46510 From: "lone_renunciant" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, (Nina, Howard, Dan & Jon at the end, oh and everyone else > p.s Howard & Nina, > > Long Island - yes, Gatsby-land! Rob Ep always said he'd come to NY if we > made it too....Who else? One of the Chucks? Maybe Larry, Lisa, James, even > Tep?? > > It's sounding v.tempting. August, we've been planning on Australia, but > it's winter Down Under and it could be NY instead...what d'ya reck'n Jon & > all?:-)) > Dan, Oregon is also appealing and I'd love to meet Connie too and see Mike > again...next it'll have to be an around-the-world to celebrate Jon's > retirement from Govt to keep him out of trouble;-). > ====== Long Island: Long on Innovation. OK, seriously though, it's the birthplace and prototype of modern suburbia as we know it. Levittown. I am just blocks from the city line, I could bring you all to the temple I attend (the New York Buddhist Vihara http://www.newyorkbuddhist.org) and speak with the monks. I'm not supposed to let this out but I believe the high monk here is somewhat world-renowned, he goes to international conferences in Asia and the like, you might like to meet him. Other than that, though, there's not that much I could show you. I was born in Manhattan but we left when I was two so I can't give you a sightseeing tour, nor do I think my parents would feel good to have people they don't know coming over to the house. But I think meeting up with you guys would be cool. Real life interpersonal communication does have its advantages over Internet chat lines or study groups. Peace, A.L. P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). The current picture is a very recent one, so that's how I look without my beard.. which I may grow back when the weather cools down. I get comments about being religious just for letting it go, and I kinda do thing it's religious.. I love the classic passage "A householder or householder's son hears the Dhamma and gains faith in the Tathagata, and [...] considers, "Why don't I shave off my head and beard and go forth into the homeless life." Well I'm not doing that now so I don't mind the beard. It grows in fast. But I digress. Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some initial concerns out of the wahy? Peace, for real this time, A.l. ;) 46511 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran/ Howard kenhowardau Hi Howard, You wrote: -------------------- > Ken this is a *very* interesting insight (in the conventional sense :-) and a *very* interesting conjecture!! It would be fascinating to examine other usages of "in detail" or "in its details"!!! --------------------- Thanks Howard. As you know, I think the Dhamma is always about absolute reality. If the suttas occasionally say explicitly that a particular part of the teaching is about absolute reality that doesn't mean the rest is about concepts. If a mother tells her children, "Behave yourselves in school today," that doesn't mean, "Misbehave at other times." :-) Ken H 46512 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:45pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Your brief comment was, > ps. I don't argue it because I don't know a single Pali word which has > only one meaning (and most of them have several)! ;-)) The several meanings, given in the Pali Text Society Dictionary for example, can innocently cause a huge trouble. The most negative consequence is that it allows people who have the inclination to twist the Buddha's words (in the suttas) a freedom to create their own verion. This is a danger to the sasana. So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > Hi, James and Sarah - > > > > I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Tep > > You can find information about them in the Useful Posts in the Files > section under the category heading of "Jhana- Two Meanings". > > Metta, > James (snipped) 46513 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:04pm Subject: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be your answer and why? Kind regards, Tep ====== 46514 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Howard), Thanks for your help with this. I agree with everything you have said, but I want to talk, again, about possibly taking anatta too far. If I have gone at it like a bull at a gate, it wouldn't be the first time. See what you think: ------------------------------- .... S: Yes, conditions are never simple. Good can condition bad by this condition and vice versa. Also, of course, akusala kamma can bring its result anytime with the support of this condition again. Without a basic understanding of kamma, it can seem that good acts bring bad results and so on, but this is wrong. As Nina's post on wrong view (di.t.thi) in the Vism series stressed, wrong view about kamma is the most dangerous, because if one doesnt have confidence in the connection between good deeds and results, one can do anything. ------------------ We are talking about two separate things here. Firstly, "Conditions are never simple." Accordingly, it is a mistake to think, of any conventional reality; "This is kusala kamma; that akusala kamma; this is desirable vipaka; that is undesirable vipaka; this came about by natural decisive support condition, . . . and so on." Secondly, we know (despite conventional evidence to the contrary) that kusala kamma brings desirable results and akusala kamma brings undesirable results. Bearing those two different things in mind, isn't it sensible to learn about the conditioned realities; dana, sila and bhavana, without trying to practise them? (I know this is consistent with opinions you have expressed many times, but can it be taken too far?) So, for example, if a house has termites its owner should have it fumigated - because that's what householders do. He might be running a grave risk: life here and now might be comfortable and termite free, but the next life (or one after that) might be far less comfortable as a result of his kamma. So be it. It is a risk householders take. From time to time, a charity collector will knock on the door and the householder will duly give $5. Again, there should be no attempt at identifying; "This is willingness to give; that is reluctance to give; this will bring happy/unhappy results," or anything of that sort. Whatever will be will be. It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of knowingness would be just another idea of control. What do you think? Ken H PS: It might sound like I'm depressed about this, but I'm not. I certainly don't mean to be painting a picture of helplessness and hopelessness (thank you Howard) :-) quite the reverse. 46515 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > > Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is > neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the > gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be > your answer and why? > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > > > ====== Dear Tep, I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. One one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and finally settles down. With Metta, Lisa 46516 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 10:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 217 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] By akusala one harms oneself, other people or both oneself and other people. We may find it difficult to see that even when we do not harm or hurt others, the citta can still be akusala. For example, when we like nature, there is a degree of attachment and attachment is not kusala, it is different from unselfishness. We may see the danger of akusala which is coarse, but it is difficult to see the danger of akusala which is more subtle. However, through the study of the Dhamma we can acquire more understanding of akusala dhammas and then we may begin to see the danger of all degrees of akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46517 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? Oh, I didn't do it in your style; I have my own style. But, to use your more direct style, I don't think it is your place to lecture me about what a `good Buddhist' should and should not do. Think about it. Metta, James 46518 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Chris & all), How very nice to hear from you again after such a long break from the list!!* --- axtran wrote: > Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first > meeting: > > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > their cause > and their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative. ... S: I’m also used to seeing hetu translated here in the singular ‘cause’ but I’m not sure whether the meaning is affected either way. Chris, thanks for so helpfully providing the Pali and further comments for reflection. (Of course, the conditions may be long, long in the past, not just ‘present’. So I don’t think it’s right to say that the dhamma is present when the hetu is present.) Nyanaponika’s translation makes the best sense to me: “Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathagata has told the cause, And also what their cessation is: This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse”. ..... > Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to > imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . .... S: Alex, I seem to remember that you don’t mind quotes from the commentaries, so I have a couple from Vibhanga-a (transl as ‘Dispeller’, PTS) which I think might be helpful as they touch on the question of ‘Creator’(a and b) and also single/multiple causes (c): a)430, Classification of the Truths “...the knowledge of suffering puts a stop to mistaken theory about the fruit, which is called [seeing] lastingness, beauty, pleasure and self; and as knowledge of arising it puts a stop to mistaken theory about cause which occurs as finding a reason when there is none, such as: ‘The world occurs due to a creator, a [first] cause, time, nature (individual essence)’, etc; as knowledge of cessation it puts a stop to mistaken theory about cessation which consists in taking final deliverance to be in the immaterial world or in a World Apex and so on; as path knowledge it puts a stop to mistaken theory about the means which occurs in taking to be the way of purification what is not the way of purification, and which consists in devotion to indulgence in sense-desire and self-mortification. Hence this is said: ‘And while, about the world, the world’s arising, The world’s cessation, and the means thereto, A man’s confused, so long is he unable To recognize [and understand] the Truths’ “ ..... b)2443 “Issara-nimmaana-hetu (‘because of a lord’s creation’).....This is the doctrine of the Brahmins..For this is their intention..........or without cause or condition; but it is only because of creation by a lord that one experiences them.....Likewise they rule out all the above-mentioned kinds of kamma beginning with that to be experienced here and now without accepting even one. Ahetu-paccayaa (‘without cause and without condition’): without the cause and a condition; the meaning is that one experiences owing to no reason. This is the doctrine of the Aajiivakas. Those who assert thus also rule out all the above-mentioned causes and ailments without accepting even one of them.” .... c)669 [No Single Fruit from Single Cause], under Classification of the Structure of Conditions “Here it may be said” ‘but how is this? Is ignorance the only condition for formations, or are there other conditions? But how is it here? For firstly, if it is the only one, there follows the assertion of a single cause; but then, if there are others, the description of it as a single cause, namely, ‘with ignorance as condition formations [arise]’, is incorrect.’ It is not incorrect. Why not? Because: ‘Nor from a single cause arise One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; ‘Tis helpful, though, to utilize One cause and fruit as representative.’” ... “For the Blessed One uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit [the inclinations of] those susceptible to being taught. [And he does so] in some instances because it is a basic factor, in some instances because of obviousness and in some instances because of being not shared.” .... > Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why > the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. ... S: Chris provided the Pali. I think that hetu (cause, condition) is singular, but pabhavaa (arising or originating) agrees with dhammaa in the plural, so: “ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa Tesam hetum Tathaagato aaha etc “Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathagata has told the cause...” .... S: Again we’d need some Pali expertise to confirm. Hope to hear more from you, Alex! Metta, Sarah * All, Alex (who is female:)) was one of the very first handful of members on the list along with RobertK and Mike. Maybe Dan and Howard too.... Alex, do you still have much contact with the Vietnamese Buddhist community in the States? Weren’t you involved in some translation work into Vietnamese too? Hope your family are all doing well now after the loss you experienced then. ======= 46519 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D sarahprocter... Hi James (& Tep), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our > responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. > > James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of > jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped > view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? ... S: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. .... >Oh, I didn't do it > in your style; I have my own style. But, to use your more direct > style, I don't think it is your place to lecture me about what a `good > Buddhist' should and should not do. Think about it. ... S: I took it just to be an encouragement to everyone to keep sharing and understanding of the teachings we may have (and particularly to those like you who question and challenge the perceived DSG party line here:-)). I do hope you select a sutta for Tep's quiz and that others do too. I know yours will be very well-considered! Tep, what's yours? Tep, I think I'd say that the Migajaala Sutta, which I quoted from the other day, is the sutta which consistently for 30 years has had and continues to have most impact on me and I think meets your criteria. I'm moved just by the thought of it. I think it contains everything we need to hear in essence --the dhammas to be known, the cause of bondage, the way out, the meaning of living alone, anatta and especially the eradication of wrong views about times and places for practice. Also we crave for the perfect partner, but the partner is craving which has to be abandoned.....learning to live alone with visbible objects, sounds and so on. I find it incredibly uplifting: SN35:63. "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." S: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. In fact, the reverse: "There are, Migajala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. When there is no delight, there is no infatuation. When there is no infatuation, there is no bondage. Released from the fetter of delight, Migajala, a bhikkhu is called a lone dweller. (same for sounds, odours, tastes, tacticle objects, mental phenomena) "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." Metta, Sarah p.s James, did you see KenH is another robot?? No surprise to you -- another cold, heartless case:). (KenH- Jon also got a 0% for extroverted, also for the last 2 categories as I recall, but it's not quite fair b.c I did it for him. I wasn't quite so extreme -- definitely a talk-show host rather than an accountant!!). ============================== 46520 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:03am Subject: Sequel to Musings1: "It is by discussion ....that his wisdom is to be known...." sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Last time I quoted the following from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas briefly on how it’s possible to know someone’s virtue, honesty, courage and wisdom: 1.“It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 2.“It is by dealing with someone, great king, that his honesty is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 3.“It is in adversities, great king, that a person’s fortitude is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 4.“It is by discussion with someone, great king, that his wisdom is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** Another sutta, AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta)], adds more detail after giving exactly the same summary as above with the same emphasis on ‘after a long time’. I’ll just select further extracts on these four topics as I find them interesting: 1. Virtue (siila) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by associating with him: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are incongruous, inconsistent, shady and spotted. His deeds are not consistent, his habits are not consistent with morals. This worthy is immoral, he is not virtuous. "Herein again, monks, by associating with him one knows of another person: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are congruous, consistent, not shady, not spotted. His deeds are consistent, his habits are consistent with morals. This worthy is moral, he is virtuous. "Indeed, monks, it is by association that one’s virtue is to be understood and that too after a long time......” 2. Integrity/Honesty (soceyya”n) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by living with him: This worthy, when with one person, behaves in one way; when with two persons, in another way; when with three, in yet another way; again otherwise when with many. In his former behaviour he departs from his latter behaviour. This worthy is not honest in his behaviour. This worthy is dishonest. "In this case again, monks, a person knows another by living with him. (So he concludes:) This worthy when with one person behaves just as he does with two, three or many. In his former behaviour he dparts not from his latter behaviour. This worthy is honest, he is not dishonest. "Indeed, monks, it is by living with him that a man’s integrity is to be understood....” 3. Courage/Fortitude (thaamo) “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness. So he, afflicted by loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, sorrows, laments, is distressed and knocks his breast, wails and falls into utter bewilderment. "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world.....and unhappiness. He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......” 4. Wisdom (pa~n~naa) “In this case, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is weak in wisdom, he is not wise. What is the cause of that? In the case in question this worthy utters no profound profitable sentence (attha-padda”n) that calms, is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning (atakkaavacara”n), that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is not competent, either in brief or in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is weak in wisdom, he is not wise..... "Herein again, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom (pa~n~navaa). What is the cause of that? "In the case in question this worthy can utter a profound, profitable sentence, that calms, that is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning, that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is competent, both in brief and in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom. "Just as if, monks, a man with good eyesight, standing on the bank of a pool of water, were to see a big fish rising, he would think: Judging by the uprise of this fish, judging by the size of the ripple it makes, judging by its speed, this is a big fish; this is not a small fish: - just in the same way, monks, a person, by conversing with another, knows thus of him: judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom.” ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 46521 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, op 09-06-2005 02:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: ....>>N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between >> concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great > confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is > and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be > discerned? ... > Tep: I can't help thinking that you are making vipassana, especially > contemplation on the five aggregates, too difficult because you are > promoting the nitty-gritty details of paramattha dhamma. New > Buddhists who want to contemplate the five aggregates might be > scared away, if they have to become experts in the paramattha > dhamma first ! N: Good point. Please hang on. During our trip I shall discuss with Lodewijk Dhamma for beginners. For now I shall just add a little. T: The sutta approach to the panca khandha is straightforward. Rupa is > the first aggregate, and nama means the remaining four aggragrates. > There are countless number of suttas that never categorize rupa and > nama into details as in a paramattha-dhamma book. ---------- N: I do not see paramattha dhammas as bookish. We do not have to use the word paramattha dhammas. But in fact the five khandhas are nothing else but three paramattha dhammas (nibbaana is excluded). Khandha or (paramattha) dhamma is not different from daily life. Nama and rupa apearing through six doors, is that scaring for beginners? -------- T: For example, only > the four basic elements (not the 18 elements - Vism. XIV, 32) and some > of the 24 derived materialities are mentioned in the suttas; the 6 internal > and 6 external bases(ayatanas) are referenced in the suttas ------- N: And the cittas experiencing objects through the six doors, see for example Kindred Sayings IV. But more details are given in the Abhidhamma, that is true. It depends on the student's interest how many details he wants to know. But one should not forget that dhammas are taught with the aim to penetrate their characteristics when they appear. -------- T: only a > small number of sankhara (kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara) plus a > subset of the 50 cetasikas are seen in the suttas; -------- N: sankhaarakkhandha is different from kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara. The latter is another notion, see Nyanatiloka's dictionnary. sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara has several meanings in different contexts. -------- T: small number of the > 89 cittas were mentioned by the Buddha; concepts and ultimate > realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. --------- N: His whole teaching is about this: we may believe that there is a person (concept) but what is there in reality: fleeting elements. See the Elephant's Footprint Simile. The monk is scolded by someone. What is there? Only elements. There is ear-contact. He sees that there are only impersonal elements. ------- T: For example, DN 22 is one of the suttas that straightforwardly teach > contemplation of the five aggreagtes, and it does not intimidate > beginners. _____ N: Not only the five khandhas, many, many other subjects. But the main thing is not seeing self in the body, feelings, citta, dhammas. This implies: knowing the difference between concept (self) and nama and rupa. ***** Nina. 46522 From: nina Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 165 and Tiika nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 165. Agitation. Intro: As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Since akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, there is restlessness time and again. The Tiika of Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 93, describes udhacca as lack of calm or distraction (vikkhepo). ******* Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. N: The Pali term uddhacca, agitation, is explained as uddhatabhaavo, here translated as agitatedness. Uddhatabhaavo is the nature of having been lifted up too high, being out of balance (in PED). Uddhata is p.p. of uddharati, to lift up. Uddha means high. Thus, uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. Then the Tiika adds: the dhamma because of which the citta or the accompanying dhammas are agitated, that dhamma is uddhacca. ---------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by the wind. -------- N: The Tiika uses here the terms disquiet and impure, appasannabhaava. Akusala citta that is always accompanied by agitation is not pure. ----------- Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped by the wind. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that it has the function of shaking (calana). This is a term describing the unsteadfastness of uddhacca. --------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. --------- N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in the way of reeling about. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should be regarded as distraction of consciousness. -------- N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of all kinds of akusala. The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that is experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. When akusala citta arises it experiences an object in the unwholesome way. At that moment there is ignorance that does not know the true nature of that object and uddhacca which is restless or agitated about that object. ------- Conclusion: As we have seen, the Tiika explains that the dhamma by which citta or its accompanying dhammas are restless, is the dhamma that is uddhacca, restlessness. Uddhacca is referred to as 'that dhamma', 'so dhamma'. This reminds us that it does not belong to a person, that we should not take it for 'my agitation'. It is only a conditioned dhamma. The citta and accompanying cetasikas are conditioned by udhhacca, they are all restless and distracted, forgetful of kusala. It is often said with regard to a cetasika that this dhamma itself is of such or such quality, and that it also makes the accompanying dhammas in that way. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition one another. When akusala citta arises it is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and these support it in the unwholesome way. The citta lacks the support of the sobhana cetasikas such as confidence, calm, wieldiness and balance, it cannot apply itself to daana, siila, samatha or vipassanaa. The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady as water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. Restlessness forms a pair with kukkuccha, worry, and it is one of the five hindrances. Restlessness arises innumerable times a day, but we do not notice it. It arises with cittas rooted in lobha, with cittas rooted in dosa and cittas which have moha as their only root. When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then there is uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent feeling. Akusala citta may be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and at that moment there is also uddhacca. Ignorance always arises together with uddhacca and it darkens its true nature. Only the arahat has eradicated uddhacca. ***** Nina. 46523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) nilovg Hi Phil, Thank you very much. op 09-06-2005 13:06 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? > > Lobha is akusala and chanda can be either akusala or kusala. > Since there is akusala far more often than kusala, safe to say that > chanda is akusala more often than not. ------------ Citta rooted in lobha is accompanied by chanda. Suppose, there is clinging to good food. Lobha clings, it would not be able to get the object of clinging. Chanda is necessary to obtain that object. --------- >> ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda >> and lobha? >Maybe we can use the chocolate cake test... .. I would get irritated if I couldn't read my Samyutta NIkaya > anthology in the morning so that is a sign that there is a lot of > lobha in my Dhamma study. The chanda then would be unwholesome. ------- N: It is still good to read, it is bhavana. But it is natural that also lobha arises. -------- Ph: iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform >> wholesome deeds? > > If they are wholesome, there is kusala chanda, but lobha can > quickly follow. I need to re-read Deeds of Merit. If, for example, a > parent donates to a temple in the hope of his or her child getting > into a good university, which often happens in Japan, would that be > considered a wholesome deed by virtue of the recipient of the > donation, even though self-interest was involved on the part of the > donor? --------- N: Only that person can tell. There is likely to be a mixture of akusala and kusala. In that case the generosity is not a perfection. When it is a perfection one's objective is eradication of akusala, and one does not think of one's own profit. -------- Ph: iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana >> cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamån?E> > cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say >> that the latter types are neither wholesome nor >> unwholesome? > Not correct. They are either wholesome or unwholesome, not neither > nor. -------- N: The cetasikas that accompany a citta are of the same jaati as that citta. When they are kusala they are different from when they are akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. ----------- >> >> v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or pú`i >> can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards >> akusala and thus entirely different? ..... It is so easy for people to forget that energy > (virya) and enthusiasm (piti) are not always wholesome and are in > fact usually unwholesome - they have such wholesome connotations in > our culture. ------ N: Very good reminder. --------- PH: vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the >> development of the Path? In what way? > > Well, understanding virya better will help to condition wholesome > virya, and since wholesome virya is right effort, a path factor will > begin to be developed. That applies to other path factors as well > though. ------------ N: The aim of the eightfold Path is the realization of the four noble Truths and thereby eradicatiing wrong view and later on all defilements. Our first aim is to see dhammas as they really are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. But we have to begin to see dhamma as dhamma. The study of the cetasikas and awareness of those that appear helps to have more understanding of anattaa. It helps us to see their conditions, how nama dhammas that arise together condition one another. We better understand that not 'we' can decide to develop kusala and understanding, that so many conditions are needed. Kh. Sujin once said that we should Some people misunderstood this, but the real meaning is having more understanding of anattaa. Nina. 46524 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:01am Subject: Crucial Necessity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What has to be Understood ? The nature of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Cause of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The End of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Way to End Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The nature of Birth has to be Understood. The Cause of Birth has to be Understood. The End of Birth has to be Understood. The Way to End Birth has to be Understood. The nature of Clinging has to be Understood. The Cause of Clinging has to be Understood. The End of Clinging has to be Understood. The Way to End Clinging has to be Understood. The nature of Craving has to be Understood. The Cause of Craving has to be Understood. The End of Craving has to be Understood. The Way to End Craving has to be Understood. The nature of Feeling has to be Understood. The Cause of Feeling has to be Understood. The End of Feeling has to be Understood. The Way to End Feeling has to be Understood. The nature of Contact has to be Understood. The Cause of Contact has to be Understood. The End of Contact has to be Understood. The Way to End Contact has to be Understood. The nature of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Cause of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The End of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Way to End the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The nature of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Cause of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The End of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Way to End Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The nature of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Cause of Consciousness has to be Understood. The End of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Way to End Consciousness has to be Understood. The nature of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Cause of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The End of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Way to End Mental Construction has to be Understood. The nature of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Cause of Ignorance has to be Understood. The End of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Way to End Ignorance has to be Understood. These have to be Understood... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 16 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46525 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:51am Subject: Jintamaya panna? philofillet Hi all Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? I couldn't find this term in the glossary - I probably misheard... Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46526 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Hi Phil, It must be "cintamaya-pañña" (intellectual understanding, or thinking about realities). Clinging to cintamayapañña and confusing it with direct understanding is certainly a big danger. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? > I couldn't find this term in the glossary - I probably misheard... > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 46527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran nilovg Dear Ken H, thank you for your further report. op 09-06-2005 03:08 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > > However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only > nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" > that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I > think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to > panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not > experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) --------- N: The cetasikas share the same object as the citta that is the chief in knowing. The cetasikas experience it each in their own way while they perform their own functions. -------- K: Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over > for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is > walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in > detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the > suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? ------- The Co explains that is not like animals who know when they are walking. Here the word detail is not used. In other contexts it can have different meanings, but now I cannot check the Pali. Nina. 46528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew, You raise many points and it is difficult to explain much in one letter. I try to take out some points. Moreover, I am going away on Sunday until Thursday. op 08-06-2005 19:58 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: Maybe satipatthana is the wrong word. > Transcendence? I've done both so I could sort of get it together. The > point is, it's rare for this state to manifest nowadays, and I can't > summon it at will. ------- N: That is a good sign, that I would call progress. To realize that we cannot order certain states at will. It helps one to understand at least intellectually anatta. ------- > It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to > the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my > parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how > life is short for all of us) -------- N: That is kusala. But the next moment, akusala is likely to arise. That is natural. ------------- A: >> N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala > roots. Fear >> is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in > moha, >> ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are > rooted in >> lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some > have moha, >> ignorance, as their only root. >> All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what > has been >> accumulated in the past. A: Nina I don't think you really answered the question but I'm not sure > if it would help anyway. You say all akusala is rooted in these four > things, but are these four things always akusala? -------------- N: Yes, always. Akusala is akusala and its characteristic cannot be changed. However, there are many degrees and forms of them. They can be subtle and more coarse. --------- A:Is it that that is > the 'evil' nature of acting of them, or is it merely that it is > through these four that we do other evil deeds, ------ N: I would say: the three akusala roots can motivate many kinds of akusala through body, speech and mind. -------- A: so say, acting out of > fear to save one's life might be acceptable... -------- N: Fear just arises, and we cannot say: let me have no fear. We are worldlings, we have not eradicated defilements. When running away to save your life there are likely to be cittas with fear, which is a form of aversion or dosa, but not necessarily so. ----------- A:>> N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to > be >> eradicated first. > Perhaps. Maybe we can get started helping me learn cittas again? If > wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala > roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of > attachment. Well, I guess what that means is that I still do have > wrong view. :P Sounds good. >> ---------- N: Understanding has to be built up, beginning with correct intellectual understanding. It depends on a person's interest how many details he wants to learn. It should not be forced. --------- A: >> N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are > conditions >> kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, > such is >> life. > > OK, but what is the cause for us to do these good deeds? Reading > suttas, for example? If it is done out of a sense of duty or > discipline, perhaps out of wholesome desire, it is not akusala. > Basically if I don't want to read Digha Nikaya because I like it > (don't want to act out of attachment), what better root can there be > to motivate me to read it? ------- N: To have more understanding. In between lobha arises anyway, but the goal is having more understanding. That alone can eradicate wrong view. As Phil suggested, we should not worry about that. >> ------------ A: >> N:. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to > know >> oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. A: Sounds mostly OK, but I would say to know one's intention before you > act, you needn't know the whole citta or its cetasikes. --------- N: The big question is, is there any time to sit down and ponder over one's intention? Mostly we act on the spur of the moment. It depends on one's accumulated understanding whether he realizes what type of citta motivates a deed. There is no rule at all. ------- >> -------- >> A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta >>> to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as >>> painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, >>> or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that >>> will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of > two >>> disciplines, it could be. >> ----- N:>> They are >> conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. >> Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural >> practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is > taking >> over. ------ A: > Well this is kind of a grey area. I do not know exactly how to > practise as I've not looked deeply into the Satipatthana sutta and > its commentary, but behavioral exercises seem to be OK. I would > still say we can start with idea of self to practise that which > removes permanently the idea of self. ---------- N: It would be better not to wonder how shall I practise. I do not think we can decide: today I shall practise. It has to grow. It grows from correct intellectual understanding, acquired by reading, by discussing about the objects of awareness, by listening. Have you tried DSG org. the audios? Sarah is quoting AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta, and I like the part on courage, about the worldly conditions. They happen all the time and when these are unpleasant it is helpful that it is kamma that condiitons them. <3. Courage/Fortitude (thaamo) “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness. So he, afflicted by loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, sorrows, laments, is distressed and knocks his breast, wails and falls into utter bewilderment. "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world.....and unhappiness. He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......> Nina. 46529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jintamaya panna? nilovg Hi Phil, cinta-maya-paññaa. I do not know the context here, but also when insight is tender insight, there is still thinking arising in between. Later on, when insight is more developed there is no need anymore to think of nama and rupa. And even the thinking that arises can be realized as a type of nama. This was formerly explained by Kh Sujin. Thus, cinta-maya paññaa is not merely intellectual understanding, as I understood. Nina. op 10-06-2005 15:51 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? 46530 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Dear Nina and Phil, Doesn't cintamayapañña refer to the kind of pañña that arises from thinking? Would you then say that the tender insight itself is cintamayapañña because it inspires subsequent thinking? Or that the thinking about tender insight is cintamayapañña? I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña (ratiocination). The distinction between tender insight pañña and intellectual understanding pañña is not at all a difference of degree (shallow vs. deeper) but a difference in character (cogitation vs. insight). They are not in the least bit similar. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > cinta-maya-paññaa. > I do not know the context here, but also when insight is tender insight, > there is still thinking arising in between. Later on, when insight is more > developed there is no need anymore to think of nama and rupa. And even the > thinking that arises can be realized as a type of nama. > This was formerly explained by Kh Sujin. Thus, cinta-maya paññaa is not > merely intellectual understanding, as I understood. > Nina. > op 10-06-2005 15:51 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? 46531 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cintamaya panna? nilovg Hi Dan, I know very little about this subject. I just wrote what I remembered from discussions. When in Thailand people thought that this is only thinking, and Kh. Sujin explained that there is more to it, that it is already insight. As I explained in my other post. Now, in the Visuddhimagga we learnt that it is understanding acquired from one's own thinking without having heard it from others. Thus, this is in another context. We came across this at the beginning of Ch XIV. The difficulty is that it has different meanings depending on the context. Nina. op 10-06-2005 18:28 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) > and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña > (ratiocination). T 46532 From: "frank" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:36pm Subject: 12 links... RE: [dsg] Crucial Necessity ... !!! dhamma_service I counted 11 links. Why is the 12th link omitted? I do recall there were a couple of cases where there were fewer than 12 listed in the dependent arising formula in the pali suttas, but I don't recall there being one with exactly 11. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bhikkhu Samahita Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:01 PM To: 1.6A; 1.5A Subject: [dsg] Crucial Necessity ... !!! Friends: What has to be Understood ? The nature of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Cause of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The End of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Way to End Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The nature of Birth has to be Understood. The Cause of Birth has to be Understood. The End of Birth has to be Understood. The Way to End Birth has to be Understood. The nature of Clinging has to be Understood. The Cause of Clinging has to be Understood. The End of Clinging has to be Understood. The Way to End Clinging has to be Understood. The nature of Craving has to be Understood. The Cause of Craving has to be Understood. The End of Craving has to be Understood. The Way to End Craving has to be Understood. The nature of Feeling has to be Understood. The Cause of Feeling has to be Understood. The End of Feeling has to be Understood. The Way to End Feeling has to be Understood. The nature of Contact has to be Understood. The Cause of Contact has to be Understood. The End of Contact has to be Understood. The Way to End Contact has to be Understood. The nature of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Cause of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The End of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Way to End the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The nature of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Cause of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The End of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Way to End Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The nature of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Cause of Consciousness has to be Understood. The End of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Way to End Consciousness has to be Understood. The nature of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Cause of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The End of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Way to End Mental Construction has to be Understood. The nature of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Cause of Ignorance has to be Understood. The End of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Way to End Ignorance has to be Understood. These have to be Understood... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 16 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46533 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Tep), Sarah: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. James: Sorry if I misunderstood and therefore came on too strong. I just call a spade for a spade- that is my style. I had no intention to hurt feelings or to cause hurt feelings. Really, I am reminded of my cat. He just loves to be petted and petted but sometimes if it goes on for too long or too hard he gets tired of it, and instead of telling me- which he can't do- he will give me a little nip on the hand with his teeth. Then I stop. Just consider that post of mine a little nip on the hand. In other words, don't go there. ;-)) Sarah: I do hope you select a sutta for Tep's quiz and that others do too. I know yours will be very well-considered! Tep, what's yours? James: I was intrigued but put off by the `bring some to sotapanna' aspect of the challenge. Honestly, I still cannot get a grasp on the requirements for Sotapanna because every source I read approaches it from a different angle and lists different requirements. I would also be interested to know Tep's selection since he put forth the request. Sarah: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. In fact, the reverse: James: Honestly, it seems to me that you were looking for a reason to leave that forest temple in Sri Lanka. It probably sucked! ;-)) I have had my own hair-raising experiences in a forest temple in Thailand so I can relate to the experience. That sutta by the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to seek seclusion and to be hypocritical about it- seeking seclusion and yet partnering with craving the whole while. Of course, your Sri Lanka temple was probably hypocritical to the max (most of them are nowadays), but that doesn't mean the Buddha was telling his monks that seclusion wasn't necessary. Sarah, wake up and smell the coffee! The entire lifestyle of monks and nuns is about renunciation and very lengthy periods of seclusion and reflection. That is what makes monks and nuns different from lay folk. The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta- he was a monastic until his parinibbana! Sarah: James, did you see KenH is another robot?? No surprise to you - another cold, heartless case:). James: ;-)) Yeah, thanks to Ken H for sharing. A lot of robots around here- what's a free, bitchy spirit to do?? ;-)) Metta, James 46534 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 Hi Ken H, Sarah, Howard, Nina and all I haven't had much time to post lately as Millie, the officer manager cat well known to Cooran attendees has had a stroke and lost most of her mobility. So I am nursing her constantly ... Anyway, Ken H wrote: > It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma > grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities > are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the > case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right > understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of > knowingness would be just another idea of control. > > What do you think? I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no abiding knower. But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. Are you saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both tainted by ignorance? Best wishes Andrew T 46535 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Last week the post stopped at the middle of paragraph 174. This week we complete the long Section iii which ends at paragraph #182. For the next 7 days we should have a discussion on the 3 sections we have studied so far, so that we may all have a clearer understanding of the various knowledges (naana) to be gained by breathing meditation. The next presentation on Frriday 17th will be Section iv 's introductory paragraph #183 on the "thirty-two knowledges in mindful workers" (who mindfully breathe in and breathe out by the 16 grounds: 16x2 = 32 modes of naana). ( 174. continued...) 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said. 'Consolidated'(anutthitaa): his mindfulness has parallel turn-over with whatever he guides his cognizance by. He guided his cognizance by whatever his mindfulness has parallel turn-over with. Hence 'consolidated' was said. {Tep's note: The Thai version's for "his mindfulness has parallel turn- over with whatever he guides his cognizance by" is: however the citta is directed, his mindfulness always accompanies it in the same direction.} 'Reinforced'(paricitaa): reinforced in the sense of embracing, reinforced in the sense of equipment (yaanikata), reinforced in the sense of perfection. When he embraces with mindfulness, he conquers evil, unprofitable ideas. Hence 'reinforced' was said. 'Brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa); there are four kinds of bringing to very sameness: bringing to very sameness in the sense of nonexcess(anativattana) of ideas arisen therein, bringing to very sameness in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties, bringing to very sameness in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy, bringing to very sameness owing to verisimilar abolition (susamugghaatattaa) of defilements opposed thereto. 'Very sameness' (susamam):[The pun on the word samma (same) connecting it with sammati(pp. santo calmed) and here also with the prefix sam (= con-), occurs a number of times in this work. See refs for 'same' in index.] There is sameness(samam) and very sameness. What is sameness? Ideas there arisen that are blameless and partake of enlightenment: this is sameness. What is very sameness? The supporting object for such ideas, namely, cessation, nibbana: this is very sameness. This sameness and this very sameness are known, seen, recognized, realized, sounded with understanding; tireless energy is brought to bear(aaraddha), established (founded) mindfulness is unremitting, the tranquillized body brings no trouble (asaaraddho), concentrated cognizance is unified. Hence 'brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa) was said. 175. 'Gradually brought to growth': previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth(paricita) by long in-breath, previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth by long out- breath, ... [and so on with the rest of the 32 modes, see paragraph #183 below, up to] ... previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth by out-breath contemplating relinquishment (patinissagga). Also all the varietiesof mindfulness of breathing with its sixteen grounds are prepared for growth and brought to growth interdependently. Hence 'gradually brought to growth' was said. {Tep's note: the Pali Text Society says that anu + pubba = following in one's turn, successive, gradual, and 'paricita' = gathered, accumulated, collected, increased. Hence, 'gradually brought to growth' = successively accumulated (from the first to the last ground). The Pali 'paricita' is translated as "ob-rom" in Thai, i.e. to train so as to establish a certain quality or ability.} 176. 'According as'(yathaa): there are ten meanings of 'according as', namely, meaning of 'according as' as meaning of self-control (attadamatha), meaning of 'according as' as meaning of serenity (samatha) in oneself, ... as meaning of extinguishment(parinibbhaana) in oneself, ...as meaning of direct knowledge(abhinna), ...as meaning of full understanding(parinna), ...as meaning of abandoning (pahaana), ...as meaning of developing(bhaavanaa),... as meaning of realizing(sacchikiriyaa), ... as meaning of convergent(abhisamaya) upon actuality(sacca), meaning of 'according as' as meaning of establishment(upatthaana) in cessation(nirodha). {Tep's note: The Pali Text Society says that Damatha = taming, subduing, mastery, restraint, control. Hence, attadamatha is self control. However, for comparison purpose, the Thai version for this term is " self training". The Thai word for 'direct knowledge' is 'roo-ying' (abhi = ying, nana = roo), and 'kamnod-roo' is 'full understanding'. But 'kamnod' does not mean 'full', it means mindfully aware.} 177. 'Buddha' (Enlightened One): he who is the Blessed One, who is what he is of himself, without teacher in ideas not heard before, [Read anaacariyako pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu.] who discovered (abhisambujjhati) the actualities by himself, reached omniscient knowledge therein and the powers and mastery. 'Buddha': in what sense 'buddha'? He is the discoverer(bujjhitar) of the actualities, thus he is enlightened(buddha). He is the awakener (bodhetar) of the generation, thus he is enlightened. He is enlightened by omniscience, enlightened by seeing all, enlightened without dependence on others' instruction, enlightened because of majesty, [Visavitaaya--(majesty) burgeoning': not in PTS Dict. : see Tr. XXII 5 (Ps ii 205, PsA 655 PTS edn.); Cf. Dhs AA 65 Viyodaya edn.: 'Vissavitaayaa ti arahataaya'.] he is enlightened through the quality of having exhausted cankers, enlightened through the quality of being free from the essentials of being. He is quite without greed, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without hate, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without delusion, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without defilement, thus he is enlightened; he has travelled the path that goes on only one way, thus he is enlightened; he alone discovered the peerless full enlightenment, thus he is enlightened. He is enlightened because he has destroyed unenlightenment and obtained enlightenment. 'Buddha':this is not a name made by a mother, made by a father, made by a brother, made by a sister, made by friends and companions, made by relatives and kin, made by ascetics and brahmans, made by deities: this is a name(derived) from the final liberation of the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, together with the obtainment omniscient knowledge at the root of the Enlightenment Tree, this name 'Enlightened One(Buddha)' is a description(concept) based on realization. 178. 'Taught': According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of self control. According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of serenity in oneself ... [and so on as in #176 up to] ... According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of establishment in cessation. 179. 'He' : he is a layman or one gone forth into homelessness. 180. 'World' : world of aggregates, world of principles, world of bases, world of misfortune, world productive of misfortune, world of good fortune, world productive of good fortune. One world: All beings subsist by nutriment. Two worlds: Mentality and materiality. Three worlds: Three kinds of feeling. Four worlds: Four kinds of nutriment. Five worlds: Five aggregates as objects of clinging. Six worlds: Six internal bases. Seven worlds: Seven stations of consciousness. Eight worlds: Eight worldly ideas. Nine worlds: Nine bodes of beings. Ten worlds: Ten bases [excluding mind and ideas]. Twelve worlds: Twelve bases. Eighteen worlds: Eighteen principles. 181. 'Illuminates': Having discovered the meaning of 'according as'(yathaa) to be the meaning of self control, he is a luminary illuminating, illuminating, this world. Having discovered the meaning of 'according as' to be the meaning of serenity(samatha) in oneself ... [and so on as in # 176 up to] ... discovered the meaning of 'according as' to be the meaning of establishment(upatthaana) in cessation, he is a luminary illuminating, illuminating, this world. 182. 'Just like the full moon free from cloud': Defilements(kilesa) are like clouds, the noble ones' knowledge is like the moon. The bhikkhu is like the deity's son who possesses the full moon. As the moon when freed from cloud, freed from mist, freed from smoke and dust, delivered from the clutches of the Eclipse-Demon Raahu, gleams and glows and shines, so too the bhikkhu who is delivered from all defilements gleams and glows and shines. Hence 'just like the full moon free from cloud' was said. These are the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing(vodaana). End of Recitation Section * * * Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ======================================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > The presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing' > (Group III) continues today. Again, please be reminded that words > within square brackets [ ] most of the times are Commentary. > > 24. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the second > jhana? > (snipped) > > Tep's Note: We shall complete this long Section iii in the next post -- to > be presented next Friday (6/10). I also plan to write a discussion of > Section iii following the next Friday posting. I hope that the material so > far is interesting enough to capture your attention. There are several > terms (and their Pali) that have to be studied carefully, especially those > related to establishing of mindfulness and development of cognizance > by means of breathing meditation. What three ideas must be known > such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests > endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ? > > > 46536 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Cohesive Co-Origination ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What Causes this Conditioned Chain of Emergence ? What is Dependent Co-Origination ? Condensed: When this is present, that too is in existence. When this arises, that too emerges. In Detail: The condition of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to arise. The condition of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to arise. The condition of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to arise. The condition of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to arise. The condition of The 6 Senses causes Contact to arise. The condition of Contact causes Feeling to arise. The condition of Feeling causes Craving to arise. The condition of Craving causes Clinging to arise. The condition of Clinging causes Becoming to arise. The condition of Becoming causes Birth to arise. The condition of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to arise. The condition of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to arise... Such is the arising of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! This is called the Wrong Way ... This is Dependent Co-Origination ! Source: Grouped Sayings on Causation. Nidana Samyutta Nikaya XII http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46537 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Dear Dan, I am Venky from Mumbai -India. What we normally say as 'bhavanamayapanna" is basically wisdom by experience. Bhavana means personal experience panna means wisdom e.g When you get angry and you begin to realise that you are getting angry and are able to not to react by realising that this anger is anatta (impermanent) and momentary and you allow to pass that moment of anger by just observing it is bhavanamayapanna that is wisdom gained by personal experience . the wisdom of anger being anatta . Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight. Insight of experiencing the fact that everything is just nama rupa (mind and matter) and not as we perceive it to be .Cintamayapanna can be more likely to be experienced by meditation and Vipasanna . Wisdom or panna is to experience and cannot be described e.g the taste of mango I ate yesterday cannot be decribed in words. I can only say it was sweet but cannot describe the sweetness as of sugar or orange or grapes or ............... Metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Dear Nina and Phil, Doesn't cintamayapañña refer to the kind of pañña that arises from thinking? Would you then say that the tender insight itself is cintamayapañña because it inspires subsequent thinking? Or that the thinking about tender insight is cintamayapañña? I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña (ratiocination). The distinction between tender insight pañña and intellectual understanding pañña is not at all a difference of degree (shallow vs. deeper) but a difference in character (cogitation vs. insight). They are not in the least bit similar. <....> 46538 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS balancing_life Basic Paper 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS Dhamma Cakka Pavattana Sutta ( The Discourse to Set in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma ) Buddhism is a system of philosophy with a code of Morality, Physical and Mental. The Goal in view is " Cessation of Suffering and Death." The Four Noble Truths taught by the Buddha in His first sermon to the 5 disciples, formed the basis on which is founded the system of philosophy. In fact the first three Truths expound the philosophy of the Buddha while the fourth, the Noble Eightfold Path that is a code of Morality- cum-Philosophy serve as a means for the end. The Four Noble Truths are : Dukkha Sacca = Noble Truth of Suffering, Samudaya Sacca = Noble Truth of Origin of Suffering, Nirodha Sacca = Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering, Magga Sacca = Noble Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. To come to a complete understanding of the fundamental concepts in the philosophy of the Buddha, emphasis is laid on the need for the realization of the Truth of Suffering. Truth is an incontrovertible fact. According to Buddhism there are four such Truths - all associated with man. "In this very one-fathom long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the Path leading to the cessation of the world." - Rohitassa Sutta This interesting passage refers to the Four Noble Truths, which the Buddha Himself discovered. Whether Buddhas arise or not, they exist, and it is a Buddha that reveals them to the ignorant world. These truths are in Pali termed Ariya Saccani because they were discovered by the Greatest Ariya, that is, one who is far removed from passions, or because they lead to the Ariyan state of passionlessness. The first Truth deals with Dukkha, which, for need of better English equivalent, is inappropriately rendered by suffering. As a feeling Dukkha means that which is difficult to be endured (Du-difficult, Kha - to endure). Here Dukkha is used in the sense of contemptible (Du) emptiness (Kha). The world rests on suffering (Dukkhe loko palitthito) - hence it is contemptible. It is devoid of any reality - hence it is empty or void. <...> Questions What do you learn from the Rohitassa Sutta? What is in this very one-fathom long body? If the cause of suffering is craving (tanha) then what is the cause of tanha? Answers (Module 2.3) Is telling more than it supposes to be classified as lying? Why? If one exaggerates the fact then one fulfil all the criteria of false speech. But if one only elaborate in detail without the intention to deceive then one is not consider lying. What do you understand of this: "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor takes away the life of the man. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com With Metta Alice 46539 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:07am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 218 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] When the citta is kusala, there is confidence in wholesomeness. Kusala citta is pure and it is capable of producing a pleasant result. Whereas akusala citta is impure and it leads to sorrow. At the moment of akusala citta there is no confidence in wholesomeness, one does not see that akusala citta is impure and harmful. For example, when we see a pleasant sight, akusala cittas with attachment tend to arise. At such a moment there is “unwise attention” to the object which is experienced; we are enslaved to that object and do not see the danger of akusala. Thus we go on accumulating more and more akusala. If one has not listened to the Dhamma, one does not know exactly what is kusala and what is akusala and thus there are many conditions for unwise attention to the objects which are experienced through the five sense-doors and through the minddoor. Foolish friends are also a condition for akusala cittas. The person who is inclined to akusala will associate with friends who have similar inclinations. Thus he accumulates more and more vices and then it is very difficult to turn to kusala and develop virtues. Akusala citta is bound to arise more often than kusala citta because there have been countless akusala cittas in the past and thus the conditions for akusala have been accumulated. If there is no development of right understanding akusala cannot be eradicated and we will continue to accumulate more akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46540 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: Ven. Dhammanando's seven translations of saccato thetato. nilovg Venerable bhikkhu Dhammanando, When giving us seven translations you wrote: Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). N: I would suggest as an option for 'as a truth': in conformity with the truth. With respect, Nina. 46541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. nilovg Hi Tep, thank you very much. I would like to return to 17, unity, ekatta. See below. ---------- 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in the act of giving], (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha nimitta) [in concentration], (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of fall [in insight], (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). ----------- some remarks. I was wondering about the meaning of unity and looked up a few texts. ekatta: sign of unity. naanatta refers to the multipicity of objects which bring distraction. These two opposites also occur in some suttas. Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 15: Giving up: this would also be the giving up of defilements. -------- devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). Adhicitta: this refers to concentration connected with vipassanaa paññaa. Nina. 46542 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Dan, Phil and friends, Cinta mayaa-paññaa. Cinta is sometimes translated as what is reasoned. But, as we shall see, it is far more than intellectual understanding. We go first to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 14 and Tiika: Relevant text Vis. 14: And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. ****** Pali: "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" ***** Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone else. ------ The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and other aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma is not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, beginning with the first stage of tender insight. ------- Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this is insight knowledge. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ----------- * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: . The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. -------- Tiika: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. _________ * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. ------- I also went to Diigha Nikaaya, Saangiiti Sutta (the Recital), the Threes where we also find cinta-maya-paññaa, sutta-maya-paññaa and bhaavana-maya-paññaaIts commentary (P.T.S. p. 1002) gives the same explanation. The Dispeller (II, p. 157) explains the Pali terms word by word. The word study, nijjhaana) is used, but this is not only book study. It is study with awareness of what appears. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion:<...and in particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakhanti (acceptance of study things)>. This reminds us that patience, khanti, is needed to study and consider again and again the five khandhas, that is, the dhammas that appear now. This reminds us of the patience and perseverance of the Bodhisatta while he developed understanding life after life. Also pariyatti is more then merely intellectual understanding. I quote from Sukin¹s post: ***** Nina. 46543 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, I'd like to re-post the Pali (cleaned up this time) and ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi translation for the paragraph from the Alagadduupama Sutta, MN22 #25.: Translation (with a few key Pali words added): ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self (attain), would there be what belongs to my self (attaniye)?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended (anupalabbhamaane) as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views (di.t.thi.t.thaana.m), namely, 'The self and the world are the same (so loko so attaa); after death I shall be permanent (nicco), everlasting (dhuvo), eternal (sassato), not subject to change (aviparo); I shall endure as long as eternity (sassatisma.m)' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching (baaladhammo)?" ...... Pali ======== 37. Attani vaa bhikkhave sati' attaniya.m me'ti assaati? 'Eva.m bhante.' Attaniye vaa bhikkhave sati 'attaa me'ti assaati? Eva.m bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane* yampida.m** di.t.thi.t.thaana.m 'so loko so attaa, so pecca bhavissaami nicco dhuvo sassato avipari.naamadhammo, sassatisama.m tatheva .thassaamii'ti, nanaaya bhikkhave kevalo paripuuro baaladhammoti? 'Ki.m hi no siyaa bhante, kevalo paripuuro*** baaladhammo'ti. ..... (Pali foot-notes- *Anupalabbhiyamaane, syaa. Sii **Yampi ta.m, machasa.m ***. Kevalo hi bhante paripuuro, machasa.m.) ..... S: Also, Howard, I pointed out your message to Jim A and he also saw Ven Dhammanando's comprehensive comments in the meantime. He wrote: Jim:>I thought his post (#46496) was excellent and provides a better explanation than I could have. There doesn't seem to be anything I can add.< Metta, Sarah ======== 46544 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: cinta-mayaa-paññaa onco111 Thanks for these clarifying passages, Nina. I read it a bit different from you, though: cintamayapañña is "pondering over things, that concerns ownship of deeds or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with 'materiality is impermanent' [etc.]", i.e. thinking about truths is cintamayapañña, while "all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development [bhavanamayapañña]." The cintamayapañña may well include the exercise of describing prior insight or even the intellectual, conceptual reflection on recently experienced moments of bhavanamayapañña. However, there is a sharp distinction between the original bhavanamayapañña (e.g., direct insight into 'materiality is impermanent') and the subsequent (or perhaps prior) cintamayapañña (e.g., conceptualization of 'materiality is impermanent'). If, as the subcommentary suggests, it's true that cintamayapañña occurs only with Sammåsambuddhas and Pacceka Buddhas, then the term is of little use. In fact, we'd best banish it from our discussions forthwith, because its definition, derivation, and description in the the primary (Vibh) and secondary (Dispeller) expositions so strongly suggest a sense of "thinking about realities" as opposed to "direct experience" (bhavanamayapañña) that if we were to use it in the extremely limited sense of applying only to Buddhas, it would be horribly confusing and potentially misleading. On the other hand, if we were to use it in the sense ("thinking about" rather than "insighting"), we'd be at odds to the subcommentary to Visuddhimagga. Then again, definitions of Pali words are not constant and depend strongly on context. The reflecting knowledge of Buddhas is cintamayapañña as is the reflecting knowledge of everyday worldlings. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Dan, Phil and friends, > > Cinta mayaa-paññaa. > Cinta is sometimes translated as what is reasoned. But, as we shall see, it > is far more than intellectual understanding. > > We go first to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 14 and Tiika: > > Relevant text Vis. 14: > And this is said: 'Herein, what is > understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work > invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any > preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering > over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in > conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the > axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... > formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires > without hearing it from another--that is called understanding > consisting in what is reasoned. ' > (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from > another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt > (heard). > 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is > understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). > So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what > is heard, and in development. > ****** > > Pali: "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? > "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu > yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa > saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. > sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m > khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m > parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa > pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa > pa~n~naa. > "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" > > ***** > Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding > regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller > of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). > This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the > benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. > Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone > else. > ------ > The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and other > aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma is > not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, > beginning with the first stage of tender insight. > ------- > Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of > ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². > As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this is > insight knowledge. > That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the > penetration of the truth. > Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is > impermanent, or... and so on. > Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and > non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. > What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. > The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus > described above *. > Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. > For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of > work and so on, which were explained above.** > Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to > beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, > namely nibbana. > ----------- > * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of > such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² > ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity>. > The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for > people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, > etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in > behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: > understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. > -------- > Tiika: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is > acceptance (khanti). > It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is > understanding. It observes, it is consideration. > And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on > incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of > them. > As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means > that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words > of instruction. > The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting > of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). > But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. > And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds > of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. > The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who > have fulfilled the perfections. > As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all > that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done > by someone else, > or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, > all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. > As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of > someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. > Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding > consisting of development. > _________ > * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. > ------- > I also went to Diigha Nikaaya, Saangiiti Sutta (the Recital), the Threes > where we also find cinta-maya-paññaa, sutta-maya-paññaa and > bhaavana-maya-paññaaIts commentary (P.T.S. p. 1002) gives the same > explanation. The Dispeller (II, p. 157) explains the Pali terms word by > word. > The word study, nijjhaana) is used, but this is not only book study. It is > study with awareness of what appears. > We read in the Dispeller of Delusion:<...and in particular, the things > (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again > and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept > (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakhanti > (acceptance of study things)>. > > This reminds us that patience, khanti, is needed to study and consider again > and again the five khandhas, that is, the dhammas that appear now. This > reminds us of the patience and perseverance of the Bodhisatta while he > developed understanding life after life. > Also pariyatti is more then merely intellectual understanding. I quote from > Sukin¹s post: > > understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows > that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. > > The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more > and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can > reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through > experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied > and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other > time, place or activity.> > > ***** > Nina. 46545 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? Metta, Dan 46546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Dan, yes, it is not all that easy. Just a short remark before I close off my email for a few days. The emphasis seems to be on cinta-maya-pañña as a contrast from sutta-maya-paññaa. The latter is understanding after having heard it from someone else. I learn from this text that cintamayapañña can include insight. Firstly, I am very impressed by what is said (also in the Co to the Sangitisutta) about the beginning insight of the Bodhisatta. < in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... >> formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires >> without hearing it from another--that is called understanding >> consisting in what is reasoned. ' > The word reasoned is used but this suggests too much an intellectual flavour. In conformity with truth: saccanuloma. I remember Ven. Dhammanando's translation of a passage about Bodhisatta Jotipala, who could reach sankhaarupekkhaa, equanimity about formations. This is insight. Rupa anicca, easy to say, but this was not merely intellectual understanding. But cinta maya pañña is paññaa. Now I also understand more Kh Sujin's remarks. To repeat: tender insight is called cinta-maya paññaa, and people say: it is just thinking. Indeed, when reading the Visuddhimagga about the stages of insight we may believe that it deals with intellectual understanding. But taruna vipassana, tender insight, is insight, not thinking. She reminded us, as I said, that paññaa is not yet advanced and in between there is still thinking about realities. She also said that only when one has reached the first stage of insight will there be understanding of ownership of deeds. It has to do with insight. Before that we do not know vipakacitta as nama. To conclude, I think, that knowing more about cinta-maya paññaa can help us to have more understanding about the development of insight. Nina. op 11-06-2005 19:14 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > I read it a bit different from you, though: cintamayapañña > is "pondering over things, that concerns ownship of deeds or is in > conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform > with 'materiality is impermanent' [etc.]", i.e. thinking about truths > is cintamayapañña, while "all understanding in anyone who has > attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development > [bhavanamayapañña]." 46547 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa, Sarah and James - This kind of quiz aims at encouraging us to search for one sutta that best satisfies the given criteria <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry">. I believe that there are several suttas that meet the criteria and would like to find out what other DSG members consider as their best choice. So Lisa, you're right that you can't fail the test. Sarah asked, "Tep, what's yours?". So I tell you what my answer is. The First Discourse (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, SN LVI.11) contains the gist of the Buddha's Teachings, i.e. the Middle Path Principle and the Four Noble Truths, and it is enough for Stream-entry (because the Ven. Kondañña got his Stream-entry after listening with full understanding to the first discourse). I am positive that full understanding (parinnaya) of the Four Nobel Truths is enough for the elimination of the first three fetters (samyojana), because of the confirmation by Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2) : "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. ... ... He attends appropriately, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress'. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." However, the First Discourse does not give me enough detail to practice for my Stream-entry. The detail I need is found in MN 9, Samma-ditthi Sutta, a discourse by the Great Arahant Sariputta. Therefore, MN 9 is my answer to the quiz question. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > ====== > > Dear Tep, > > I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! > > II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m > > (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. > > One one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and finally > settles down. > > With Metta, > Lisa 46548 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I can understand the first part of your message, but I am not quite sure what the second half meant to say. Nina: I found this interesting: Giving up: this would also be the giving up of defilements. -------- devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). Adhicitta: this refers to concentration connected with vipassanaa paññaa. Tep: Pali Text Society: Caga = to give up, (a) abandoning, giving up, renunciation (b) liberality, generosity. Anuyutta [pp. of anuyunjati] applying oneself to, dealing with, practising, given to, intent upon. Adhicitta [adhi + citta] "higher thought", meditation, contemplation, usually in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. Pali Text Society: Samadhi 1. concentration; a concentrated, self-- collected, intent state of mind and meditation, which, concomitant with right living, is a necessary condition to the attainment of higher wisdom and emancipation. Vipassana-nana = ability or method of attaining insight. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > thank you very much. > I would like to return to 17, unity, ekatta. See below. > ---------- > 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: > > (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in > the > act of giving], > (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha > nimitta) [in concentration], > (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of > fall > [in insight], > (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. > > 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift > belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity > consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those > devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity > consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) > belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in > establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). > ----------- > some remarks. I was wondering about the meaning of unity and looked up a few texts. > ekatta: sign of unity. > naanatta refers to the multipicity of objects which bring distraction. > These two opposites also occur in some suttas. > Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 15: gross because it is distracted by the multiplicity of objects; the feelings of one possessed of attainment is subtle cince it takes place only in the sign of unity(ekatta nimitta). > Footnote of Co: Because the sign of earth kasina, etc., has a unitary nature > (ekabhaava). > And the footnote on p. 357 refers to a well concentrated mind with the hindrances suppressed. > It is free from the disturbances caused by having a variety of objects. > 46549 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:28pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina {Howard, Sarah; other members are welcome} - I appreciate your valuable discussion with me. N: Khandha or (paramattha) dhamma is not different from daily life. Nama and rupa apearing through six doors, is that scaring for beginners? T: Not at all, if it is left at that. But when a beginner is told that he will have to know all rupas and namas, otherwise he cannot discern their arising and falling away and will result in "great confusion", that is scarry. Because there are 5 pasada rupas, 16 sukhuma rupas, 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas (total 162) to be learned. That's like telling a young juggling student that he will have to know how to juggle 162 objects, otherwise he will not be allowed to perform in the circus. ------------------------------------- N: It depends on the student's interest how many details he wants to know. But one should not forget that dhammas are taught with the aim to penetrate their characteristics when they appear. T: I am not denying Paramattha-dhamma principles or the Abhidahmma at all, but I'd rather prefer using them optimally (wisely) with the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas. An example of unwise using of the Paramattha-dhamma is seen in the claiming that the breaths are a "concept" and the rejection of anapanasati bhavana as a wrong approach because of its use of breaths and activities for "controlling" results ( " .. all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath,...") ----------------------- N: sankhaarakkhandha is different from kaya-, vaci- and mano- sankhara. The latter is another notion, see Nyanatiloka's dictionnary. sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara has several meanings in different contexts. T: You're right, Nina. I admit my fault. ----------------------- > T : concepts and ultimate > realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. N: His whole teaching is about this: we may believe that there is a person (concept) but what is there in reality: fleeting elements. See the Elephant's Footprint Simile. The monk is scolded by someone. What is there? Only elements. There is ear-contact. He sees that there are only impersonal elements. T: Can you give me just one sutta that says that if the monks cannot tell the difference between pannatti and paramattha dhammas then they will be in "great confusion"? The truth of the matter is that I have not seen the term 'pannatti' being used by the Buddha in any suttas. The seeing of impersonal 'dhatus' and 'khandhas' is mainly for the purpose of detachment and letting go because only 'anatta' is seen, it has nothing to do with "concept" as promoted by paramattha- dhamma/Abhidhamma scholars. -------------------- N: But the main thing is not seeing self in the body, feelings, citta, dhammas. This implies: knowing the difference between concept (self) and nama and rupa. T: If I am not mistaken, self (atta) was never defined by the Buddha as a "concept", because he did not define 'atta' from 'pannatti'. Please read the Anattalakkhana Sutta again. Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > > op 09-06-2005 02:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > ....>>N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference > between > >> concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great > > confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is > > and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be > > discerned? ... 46550 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? concepts and realities. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - Nina, I am wondering if you'd let me butt in with a few questions while Howard is still busy? N: I think that the Buddha emphasized knowing one dhamma at a time through one of the six doors. He also spoke about ayatanas: sensefields. Ayatana: meeting or association of sense object and doorway at one point so that the appropriate sense-cognition arises. When we really understand this, I believe that the difference between ultimate reality and concept becomes clearer. T: I don't thing there is a need to know concepts because any arising thoughts, as well as namas and rupas, are contemplated as anicca, seeing their drawbacks so that we can let go of them [There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside." AN IV. 41]. Also, when an external ayatana appears (being cognized) in the present moment we simply realize when it arises; and when it dissolves, it is realized as such. Then one day the impermanent characteristic becomes a lot clearer with our atapi-sampajanno- satima. With higher samatha skill (in establishing mindful awareness in the object of satipatthana) and vipassana skill (refined insight through the aniccanupassana executed with great exertion), we'll become less and less clinging to it -- i.e. being able to let go of rupas and namas. This is a simple approach as I see it. ----------------------------- N: Let us now take anatta. We gradually learn that visible object is only a dhamma, that seeing is only a dhamma. Only an element that arises already because of conditions, before we can do anything about it. Only a nama, only a rupa. This is the beginning of correct understanding of anatta. We are still holding on, and more detachment is needed to experience the falling away of dhammas. When we hold on we cannot see their falling away, their impermanence. T: How would you practically implement the above "ideas" in the present moment? Do you recite all that in every single moment, when you see an object/body, hear a sound, etc.? How would your cognizance know the arising/falling away of any rupa or any nama just in time? How do you quickly realize any one of the 162 ultimate realities (of rupa, citta and cetasika) in any given moment? If you don't have the answer to each of these questions, how many more births you'll have to go through before you may finally realize Nibbana? ------------------------------------- N: N: Defilements are conditioned namas, elements, mere dhammas and they should be seen as such, they should be objects of insight. There are there before we can blink our eyes. There are so fast, no time to do anything. T: This is a real war between us and the defilements. If you think they are too fast for us to "do anything", isn't that the same as having no strategies to deal with the enemy? How could we win the war? This is not unlike the Iraqi war that the Americans are trying to win. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > I just take out a few points of your mail. 46551 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Vipallasa - distortions of reality philofillet Hi all I read this passage this morning from Roots of good and Evil by Nanamoli Thera: "The truth of suffering is hidden by the four distortions of reality (vipallasa) the four great illusions of seeing permanence in the impermanent, happiness in what is truly suffering, selfhood in what is void of self and beauty in the unbeautiful. These distortions, poerwful universal manifestations of ignorance and delusion, shut out an understanding of the truth of suffering, and thereby obscure the other truths, too. The four may appear on any of three level: at the level of quite ordinary misperceptions (sanna- vipallasa), or as wrong ways of thinking (citta-vipallasa) or as expresssed in definite wrong ideas and theories (ditthi-vipallasa) Tenaciously held wrong views can forge the strongest chain fettering beings to pain-fraught samsara. If these views go as far as to deny the moral relevance of any action, they will lead in the enxt existence to a 'fixed destiny' of rebirth in a world of misery." Leaving aside the question of morality, I think there is such a strong risk of less obvious forms of "tenaciously held wrong views" and we who ply our wisdom on the internet had better be especially careful, I think. We have access to suttas, which we probably think we understand better than we actually do, and the nature of the internet prods us to speak out with our views. Healthy discourse can help us to see the errors in our views, but I think we also wear blinders a lot of the time. I am always ready to say that it is impossible for worldlings to try to behave like monks in a fruitful way, but I have no way of knowing that yet, so should take care in saying so. On the other hand, busy worldlings who want to try to behave like monks should be wary of being overconfident about results and might benefit from seeing vipallasa-ditthi at work in their views. I think we should always remember that we are worldlings (with a few venerable exceptions) with limited understanding and take care with respect to ditthi-vipallasa. Sorry for the inclusive "we" but if it doesn't apply to you, you will know so - unless vipallasa is twisting your mind, that is... Metta, Phil 46552 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, ------------------- AT: > I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no abiding knower. -------------------- Yes, direct knowledge of anything real (any paramattha dhamma) is something you and I can't expect to have a lot of- let alone remember. If it weren't for the Buddha we wouldn't even have the indirect knowledge that we have. But I was talking about something different: I was questioning whether we should try to design our lives around the precepts (any more than around rite and ritual). Take your cat Millie, for example: what is the best thing to do for her? In your case, the answer is clear, but for most people there would be a lot of soul searching; "Should we spend a lot of time and money (that we can't afford) on her; should we have her put down, or should we just let her die naturally (and painfully)? What would the Buddha tell us to do? Should we be guided by the precepts?" It's hard to avoid life-and-death decisions; it gets very complicated and I don't think we can know which way is best. So I think we should just follow the accepted patterns of behaviour that society has laid down for us. There are accepted ways for householders just as there are ways for monks. There are ways for pet-owning householders and there ways for householders who live like monks in concrete skyscrapers and don't even keep food in the house in case it attracts vermin. :-) I don't have much evidence to support what I am saying, but there was one brief discussion, which I vaguely remember - on one of the India (or Thailand) tapes - that is influencing me. (I think it might have been the same discussion in which the hypothetical bombardier was mentioned.) People were asking K Sujin, whether this or that conventional reality was right livelihood or wrong livelihood. She didn't seem interested in preferring one over the other and simply said something like, "Provided it's legal, you can do it." --------------------- AT: > But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. Are you saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both tainted by ignorance? ---------------------- Yes, that's more or less what I have been saying (in my confusion): Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing! :-) Ken H 46553 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Collapsible Co-Cessation ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What Causes the Conditioned End of All Suffering ? Or what is Dependent Co-Cessation ? Condensed: When this is absent, that too is nonexistent... When this ceases, that too fades away... In Detail: The fading away of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to cease. The fading away of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to cease. The fading away of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to cease. The fading away of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to cease. The fading away of The 6 Senses causes Contact to cease. The fading away of Contact causes Feeling to cease. The fading away of Feeling causes Craving to cease. The fading away of Craving causes Clinging to cease. The fading away of Clinging causes Becoming to cease. The fading away of Becoming causes Birth to cease. The fading away of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to cease. The fading away of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to cease... Such is the ceasing of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! This is called the Right Way ... This is Dependent Co-Cessation ! Source: Grouped Sayings on Causation. Nidana Samyutta Nikaya XII http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46554 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 Ken H I am still confused by what your point is! (-: My guess is that when you say: "Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing!" You mean that views form and are acted upon but should not be clung to. [You *can't* mean that we never know what we are doing because that is a denial of panna, isn't it?] A useful paraphrase or a slanderous placing of words into your mouth? Best wishes Andrew T 46555 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 0:38am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 219 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Buddha reminded people of the ill effects of akusala. Akusala kamma is capable of producing an unpleasant result in the form of rebirth or in the form of unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of our life. Through the doing of evil deeds one acquires a bad name and one loses one’s friends. Moreover, the person who commits evil is not calm when he faces death. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, the Fourth Fifty, Chapter XIX, §4, Fearless) that the bråhmin Jåùussoni said to the Buddha that he believed that everyone was afraid of death. The Buddha thereupon spoke to Jåùussoni about four kinds of people who are afraid of death and four who are not. We read that the Buddha said: * "… In this case, bråhmin, a certain one is not freed from passions, not freed from lusts, not freed from desire, affection, from thirst and fever, not freed from craving. Then a grievous sickness afflicts such an one. Thus afflicted by grievous sickness it occurs to him: Alas! The passions that I love will leave me, or I shall leave the passions that I love. Thereupon he grieves and wails, laments and beats the breast and falls into utter bewilderment. This one, bråhmin, being subject to death, is afraid, he falls a-trembling at the thought of death. Again, bråhmin, here a certain one who as regards body is not freed from lusts… is not freed from craving. Then a grievous sickness afflicts him. Thus afflicted it occurs to him: Alas! The body that I love will leave me, or I shall leave the body that I love. Thereupon he grieves… and falls into utter bewilderment. This one, bråhmin, being subject to death, is afraid, he falls a-trembling at the thought of death…" * The same is said about the person who has omitted good deeds and committed evil, and about the person who is full of doubts as to “true Dhamma”. The opposite is true of the people who do not have these vices. When a grievous sickness afflicts them they are not afraid of death. We make ourselves unhappy through unwholesome deeds, speech and thoughts, and then we have no peace of mind. Akusala is a mental disease and this is more grave than bodily disease. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46556 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and >exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or >contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > > Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture is called for. As regards whether the Buddha is suggesting that dhatus can or should be *chosen*, I think we should not rule out the possibility of reflection occurring at times other than times we might designate as 'dhatu reflection' time. >In order to encourage you to think let me ask you this: What is the >object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and >how would you develop mindfulness your way? > >HINT: The following Commentary is very useful for understanding >that "the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana]" is a meditation >through which the meditator obtains "quietude" (or samatha) through >mindfulness(sati), while insight is obtained by "clear comprehension" >(sampajanna). Therefore, you must have a well-defined object of sati >to begin with. By the way, Jon, do not mix up sati with satipatthana, >though. > >Comy. "In the passage beginning with 'ardent,' Right Exertion >[sammappadhana] is stated by energy [atapa]; the subject of >meditation proper in all circumstances [sabbatthika kammatthana] or >the means of protecting the subject of meditation [kammatthana >pariharana upaya], is stated by mindfulness and clear comprehension >[sati sampajanna]; or the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha >samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is >stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; >and the fruit of inner culture [bhavana phala] through the overcoming of >covetousness and grief [abhijjha domanassa vinaya]. [endquote] > > Thanks for quoting this passage from the commentary. As you know, I regard the commentary as highly authoritative, and as the best available source of elaboration on the Buddha's actual words. I agree with your observation that kayanupassana involves the development of samatha (as, in my view, does all mindfulness). But I do not see that as meaning that mundane samatha must be developed first (and separately) in order for the development of insight to begin. My understanding is that as insight is developed and is accumulated, so is the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment. (Sorry if this sounds stubborn ;-)) Below is another passage from the same commentary as your quoted passage. Please note that the expressions 'clearly comprehending' and 'mindful' are explained as meaning that the bhikkhu is 'endowed with' the respective qualities. This is similar to the explanation for 'exerting' etc. that we discussed in a recent post: a person in whom the quality of energy is present. You asked, 'What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and how would you develop mindfulness your way?' To answer the second part first, the primary conditions for the arising of mindfulness (apart from our past accumulations of mindfulness) are hearing the teachings explained in a way that is suitable for us, reflecting on what has been learnt and understood, and appreciating the importance of the development of insight as the only way of escape from samsara (i.e., having a sense of urgency). As regards the first part, the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa while walking, this would be something that is described in the section on the modes of deportment. Jon Sutta text: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; Comy: Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare." Later Sub-Comy: Mindfulness denotes concentration, too, here on account of the inclusion of mindfulness in the aggregate of concentration [samadhikkhandha]. 46557 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Dan I enjoy discussing this topic. As you say - it's so important. I mean, it's probably the most important think for us - understanding how understanding develops from the book and discussion to something deeper. We won't understand this fully by discussing, of course, but it might be a helpful condition. > You are absolutely right that we worldlings have not developed the > penetrating insight that characterizes the enlightened, and that we > rely on a framework of words and concepts before that depth of > insight can be reached. > > But we simply do not start with the words. > > When Dhamma falls on ears with zero understanding, it sounds absurd > and elicits stunned disbelief and dirisive laughter. For the words to > make any sense or seem the least bit attractive, there must already > be rudimentary understanding derived from experience. Ph: Ah, now I can remember that you said this when we discussed whether there is a conceptual path or not, something like that. You had a nice long exchange with Sarah. At that time, I would have disagreed with what you say above. I probably argued that the notion of reducing lust and anger and ginorance is attractive to anybody. But now I feel you're right. If we read the sutta in which the Buddha first taught the noble truths without any degree of understanding, we just think about suffering in human terms - stories about me, myself and I being torn away from things I love and put together with the unloved etc. It's just a story about people. If you talk about the deeper truth, that there are no people, only conditioned nama and rupa - yes, the dirisive laughter. The words then > help consolidate that understanding so that subsequent moments of > insight may penetrate deeper because moha doesn't rush in quite so > dramatically in the aftermath. That's well put. There will be moha, always, but the proliferation might not be as much of an onslaught. But I don't think the above means that we should hold back on sharing intellectual knowledge that we might have (well, someone like Kh Sujin has) in the fear that it will condition hungering for insight. It's true that the words will often fall on deaf ears, but it's just as futile to tell someone that they should wait to understand conditioned realities directly, through their characteristics, without telling what the characteristics are. That's what the Buddha did, in great detail. So I think Kh Sujin can share explicit teachings, even as she warns that the book knowledge is a far cry from direct knowledge. I guess I'm just repeating myself there. One danger of nose-in-book is that the mind so delights in > building conceptual elaborations (papañca) that when left to our own > devices, lobha leads us happily and obliviously into a vast thicket > of theory (brahmajala). [And there are many dangers besides this.] Ph: That's a good word to know. Brahmajala. Thicket of theory. I've heard of "thicket of views" before - same thing, I guess. > I definitely find that my nose is out of the book more often as a result of these discussions, hearing these talks. Of course, that's too intentional, usually. But it's happening, for what it's worth. My wife says I get spaced out, but at those times it's all thinking. Direct understanding would come and go so quickly that no one would know. (Including the knower, I guess - what do you think?) > > "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we > > must have that first. > > I wonder...is it better to strive diligently to build conceptual > frameworks that we hope will one day, by chance, be good descriptions > of our understanding, or to keep the focus on reality by trying to > describe our current understanding and experience of reality? I think > Kh. Sujin is right to keep bringing us back to experience and > providing a check against our penchant for speculative elaborations. Yes, I'm appreciating her more and more. But she also has written books laying out the paramttha dhammas, as you know. She knows there's a time for reading, a time for conceptualizing. But she makes sure that we don't get comfortable with it, makes sure that we don't find ourselves exploiting it. I'm really feeling good about the balance she helps us towards. Very grateful to have come across these talks. As for the above, "buidling conceptual frameworks", I think there can be an appreciation of a theoretical teaching, a noting it, without clinging to building a framework. My studying is so random that there can't be anything like a framework. A hetu here, a rupa there, a lokuttara citta - whatever comes along in my reading. Very random and disorganized. There is the self at work at times trying to make things fit together, that's true. I see what you mean. Is that why you were insisting that there is no conceptual eightfold path? I can't remember the details of your discussion with Sarah. I know that since that time I have noted here that I never think about what constitutes the path factors. I feel that thinking about them doesn't seem help to condition them. I think possibly thinking about kusala in the hopes of having it will always be in vain, but that is not necessarily the case for akusala amd hopes to avoid it. I don't know why - haven't thought about it - but I think conceptualizing and reflecting intellectually on akusala cetasikas isn't as counter-productive as thinking about beautiful cetasikas. I guess because there is less lobha involved. Yes, there is lobha about wanting to understand them, but not the desire to have them, obviously. In the case of kusala there is lobha about wanting to understand them *and* wanting to have them. The desire to avoid akusala might be less self-interested than the desire to have kusala? I guess that depends on the individual's accumulations... > > > There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what > > pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are > > reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable > > know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long > > list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or > > whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult > and > > fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. > > She's right, and I'm glad to hear it. Yes....but not completely, because soon afterwards Kh Sujin said that it can be understood that the whole subtle process citta is anatta, and that is also pariyati. Obviously, that's just understanding at a far more conceptual level than what Sarah was talking about. So different degrees of getting one's nose out of a book to reflect on realities. By the way, thanks for your (and Nina's) feedback re cintamaya (sp?) panna, which is obviously related to that. You asked our new friend from India about the difference between insight and reflection. Obviously that's all related to what we're talking about here. > > > Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think > > about understanding realities directly before understanding them > > intellectually. > > When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- > coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual > understanding", but the reality is "moha". Ph: There is almost nothing but moha all day long. The world is created by it and is burning with it through the six doorways. If we let that stop us, we would never open a book of suttas. There is a real danger of being too confident about one's ability to benefit from thinking about suttas, but not doing so would be worse, I think. And if we have a good friend like Kh Sujin to warn us of the shortcomings of trying to think our way to enlightenment, we can open books with more confidence, in a more sober way. Do you think we could follow the path fruitfully without reading suttas with out shallow degree of understanding and reflecting on them, for what it's worth? > > > And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent > > most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) > > to lead us toward direct understanding. > > My goodness, Phil! You seem to have acquired a bit of an edge in the > months I've been away... Ph: Dan, I've been getting in touch with my inner schoolyard bully. Seriously, I guess I have the beginner's awe at the depth of the Buddha's wisdom. Well, not only beginner's have that, but beginners will find it manifested in the books rather than understanding realities, directly, so we lean on suttas and find a lot of life- changing wisdom in them. And it is there, for sure, when one is dealing with issues of morality, of akusala kamma of the degree of transgression. Without guidance from suttas there would be more transgressions arising through Phil, I sense. Crude stuff. I've meant so many people who have never > heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper insight > into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) > than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the > technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; Ph: This is an obvious question, but how did you know this without their expressing themselves in Dhamma terms, conceptual terms? >> "The more we read, the more we understand anatta" is not an > affirmation that intellectual understanding must precede direct > knowing. It could mean, "the more we read, the more we > [intellectually] understand anatta", or "the more we read, the more > our understanding of anatta is solidified," or "the more we read, the > more our false notions of anatta are shattered" or "the more we read, > the more we are able to see how our rudimentary direct understanding > of anatta fits into the Buddha's conceptual scheme", or... Ph: Hmmm....I guess so. I see what you're warning about, and I appreciate it. >> In Bh Bodhi's > > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was > > helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh > > Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of > > conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper > > understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of > > hungering for sati? Less likely, I think - we know better than that > > pretty early on, don't we? > > Or it could have planted a seed of contentment: "Ah, thanks. Now I > understand motion." Or it could be that the conceptual > understanding "experienced as tangible pressure" is meaningless > unless it has been derived from experience. Even worse than > meaningless, though, it might well plant a seed of hungering for sati. Ph: It might, but I think you're underestimating the effect of listening to Kh Sujin and the talks every day. Confidence based on conceptual understanding is always being gently torn down, again and again. That accumulates. But, again, I see what you're getting at. Another friend who encourages patience is appreciated. Metta, Phil 46558 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard I am encouraged that we have agreed that the arising of a moment of kusala need not necessarily be immediately preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. I believe that what we have agreed is that the arising of a moment of kusala is conditioned by previous instances of kusala, but that those previous instances may have occurred some time before the arising of the spontaneous kusala moment. Now as I see it, the important thing to keep in mind is that these are previous *instances of kusala*, rather than that they are 'volitional activity' forming part of a general 'cultivational process'. So perhaps it would be better to just leave it at that. After all, the term 'volitional activity' is not limited to kusala actions but includes and akusala actions too. 'Kusala volitional activity' would be better, but then there is also kusala that arises other than as part of 'volitional activity', and that should not be excluded. Any thoughts? Just a brief comment on a particular comment you made in your response: ***************************** Jon: That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly. There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetana is the reality underlying conventional volition. ****************************** I like the way you put this: "Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly." That was exactly what I was trying to convey. You went on to say: "There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetana is the reality." To my understanding, the kusala consciousness that arises spontaneously is not vipaka, but in fact is itself kamma (kamma being the cetana that arises with kusala and akusala consciousness). So the conditioning relationship existing between the previous kusala states and the spontaneously arising kusala is not one of kamma/vipaka. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 6/5/05 5:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@n... writes: > Hi Howard > > The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, > was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd > like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very > important issue. > > In an earlier post you had said: > "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, > tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, > pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, > arises, can you not pay particular attention?" > > Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness > appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is > referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible > data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of > those dhammas. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly there is a difference between awareness of dhammas, which > occurs al the time, and awareness with insight/clear comprehension. If it is that > distinction you are making, then we agree. > ------------------------------------------- ... 46559 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:39am Subject: Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - You were so kind to defend me against James' attack. But it is normal when James attacks someone; the probability of that event is about 80% of the time. :-)). Your quiz answer, the Migajaala Sutta, is worth pondering about. You gave a very good summary with reasons why it was selected. S: I think it contains everything we need to hear in essence --the dhammas to be known, the cause of bondage, the way out, the meaning of living alone, anatta and especially the eradication of wrong views about times and places for practice. Also we crave for the perfect partner, but the partner is craving which has to be abandoned.....learning to live alone with visbible objects, sounds and so on. I find it incredibly uplifting. T: It is refreshing to see "living alone" (implying viveka), "eradication of wrong views" and ,importantly, "practice" in your answer. S: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. T: Migajala Sutta succinctly emphasizes abandoning tanha as the meaning of "living alone". But your interpretation of this sutta to justify foregoing of your seclusion and returning to family life was caused by cravings (for household joys), rather than the opposite. Why didn't all monks who listened to this sutta forego their monkhood and returned to their household lives? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (& Tep), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Tep, > > > > Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our > > responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. > > > > James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of > > jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped > > view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? > ... > S: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone > else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong > anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. > .... (snipped) > Tep, I think I'd say that the Migajaala Sutta, which I quoted from the > other day, is the sutta which consistently for 30 years has had and > continues to have most impact on me and I think meets your criteria. I'm > moved just by the thought of it. > : > > SN35:63. > > "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." > 46560 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Who is Strong? philofillet Hi Howard, Azita and all... Howard: > A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": > > > > "Who is strong?" > > "He who controls his passions" > > > > This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must > take to > > heart. Ph: This really caught my attention. I think it came at a time when I was struggling with immoral temptations, and had been strengthened in a clear way by reading a sutta (SN 56.7) which is as clear and sensible as the passage above. "Passions" implies akusala at the level of transgressions, in my opinion, though I don't know if that's how you tkae it. And yes, I think we can be guided away from the danger of transgressions by the power of the Buddha's teaching. No guaranteees of safety, of course - conditions are powerful and unpredicatble - but there is power in the Buddha's teaching that steers us away from behaving like degenerates. I used to think that self could be employed in this area, but now I think it's something to do with the Buddha's word being a kind of decisive support factor for the non-arising of transgressions, or something like that. Just a formative notion that I'm ready to let go of. But if "passions" is understood to be the daily little incidents of dosa and lobha that come and go but accumulate, there is no way the control can be used in such an active voice. I think of the "a tamed mind brings happiness" line in the Dhammapada - it doesn't say "he who tames his mind will be happy" and I think that there is a good reason that it doesn't. A well-tamed mind and control over the arising of lobha and dosa cannot happen by will power. But if you're talking about moral transgressions, Howard - really nasty stuff that goes on in dark and dank corners of Long Island - I'm?@with you. (haha) Azita: > at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the > passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any > awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) Ph: As I said above, I'm feeling again- as I did last year around this time - that there is wisdom in differentiating between crude defilements of the level of transgression of the precepts and all the other less damning defilements that accumulates. Wise control can arise and prevent us from sleeping with other men's wives, for example, or other women's husbands, or both, if that is one's cup of tea. Or beating them up, or stealing their watches while they're off in the loo, or whatever. I'm so grateful to have come across Kh Sujin and her wise patience, but patience should not apply in the case of transgressions. We should think about what we can do to prevent them, I think - but I may feel differently about that tomorrow! Howard, I was also interested in the other passage, from Mel Brooks, about the release from a long life of hellish imprisonment because of a single moment of good behaviour. I can certainly see while you think Mel was lurking. I don't know if there is any way that a moment of understanding a reality will erase the transgressions I have committed that may very well doom me to hell. Don't think about it. No way to know. I doubt there is, if I think about it, but I don't think about it. The best think to do is press ahead patiently and develop understanding, without dwelling on the past. I'm reading more into that passage than you intended, probably, but it struck a chord with me, for some reason. Metta, Phil 46561 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:34am Subject: Rhetorical question re concepts and realities philofillet Hi all A couple of rhetorical questions popped into my head today that I thought might help people who deny that the Buddha taaght about the difference between concepts and realities. Did the Buddha have penetrative insight? If yes, what did his insight penetrate? If no, what kind of insight did he have? Does knowing that the terms pannati and paramattha dhammas are not used in the suttas in any way change your answer to the questions above? I don't know if these rhetorical questions are of any use. No need to answer them, but might possibly be of value to reflect on them. Metta, Phil 46562 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only philofillet Hi Tep, and all These days I really dig Rahula Samyutta SN 18:1-10 (actually 10 very short suttas strung together, I guess.) The Buddha sits his son Rahula down and says "Son, it's time you and me had a talk about realities. You see, son, there are some folks think concepts are real, see. But what I want you to do is listen and tell me, boy - is the eye permanent or impermanent? Yup, that's right son. Impermanent." And so on through 9 other categories of elements. Sorry for the silliness above, but there is something very conceptually powerful about the notion of the Buddha sitting down with his son to teach him Dhamma. And then, that story falls away, and the Buddah and his son are gone and we're down to elements, realities. Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where the task ahead lies. Of course there are many suttas about which one could say the same thing. These days, in the morning, I tend to reflect on the fire sutta - "the eye (and everything else) is burning" with greed, hate and delusion - and the anatta sutta. Reeflecting on these two suttas leaves me with a pretty clear (but still very shallow) intellectual understanding that the world (ie my mind) is burning with greed, hate and ignorance but there's nothing I can do about it by will power. (The anatta sutta makes that crystal clear to me - it says very explicitly that there is no way to have khandas, including volitional formations, the way we would like to have them.) Reading these suttas is quite sobering. Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Well, duh, no kidding. Metta, Phil 46563 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:28am Subject: Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Sarah), Tep: You were so kind to defend me against James' attack. But it is normal when James attacks someone; the probability of that event is about 80% of the time. :-)). James: LOL! I didn't attack you- I just called you on the same passive-aggressive approach you are using in this post. You may try to couch this aggression of yours as `joking', but I know better (Sarah is just trying to keep the peace). But it won't do much good to talk to you rationally (as I tried to do) because currently you are on some kind of ego-power trip. Just get back to the dhamma and knock it off with the personal comments, thanks. James 46564 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil and all - Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where the task ahead lies. Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the Buddha's, then what else do you have as a better alternative? I wonder how you could understand "where the task ahead lies" if you didn't grasp the meanings of "impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta". I think you may agree with me that to grasp the meanings of the three characteristics from the sutta reading is not the same as to attain full understanding (parinna) of them. ----------------- [After reviewing the Fire Sutta.. ] Phil: Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Respectfully, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, and all > > > These days I really dig Rahula Samyutta SN 18:1-10 (actually 10 > very short suttas strung together, I guess.) The Buddha sits his son > Rahula down and says "Son, it's time you and me had a talk about > realities. You see, son, there are some folks think concepts are > real, see. But what I want you to do is listen and tell me, boy - is > the eye permanent or impermanent? Yup, that's right son. > Impermanent." And so on through 9 other categories of elements. > > Sorry for the silliness above, but there is something very > conceptually powerful about the notion of the Buddha sitting down > with his son to teach him Dhamma. And then, that story falls away, > and the Buddah and his son are gone and we're down to elements, > realities. Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we > able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all > the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. > It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where > the task ahead lies. Of course there are many suttas about which one > could say the same thing. > > These days, in the morning, I tend to reflect on the fire sutta - > "the eye (and everything else) is burning" with greed, hate and > delusion - and the anatta sutta. Reeflecting on these two suttas > leaves me with a pretty clear (but still very shallow) intellectual > understanding that the world (ie my mind) is burning with greed, > hate and ignorance but there's nothing I can do about it by will > power. (The anatta sutta makes that crystal clear to me - it says > very explicitly that there is no way to have khandas, including > volitional formations, the way we would like to have them.) Reading > these suttas is quite sobering. Then I sit down with the Buddha and > begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever > so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions > about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, > about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for > consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula > Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Well, duh, no > kidding. > > Metta, > Phil 46565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Dan D. wrote: >Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's >dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding >of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours >using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic >of reality. > Are you saying that people who have not heard the teachings could develop a deep understanding of anatta as a characteristic of reality? I'd be interested to know why you would see it that way. > I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient >depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still >POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what >99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. > I think this comparison raises quite different issues. One could probably make a similar comment about the core concepts of any religion ;-)) Jon 46566 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Dear Bhante (and Tep) - Thank you so much for this detailed response. I agree with you about Horner for sure and pretty much for Law's translation as well. I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" or "is not found" or "does not obtain". With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/9/05 11:27:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Dear Howard & Tep, Howard: > I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually > there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a > fact. It would be important to know it. Here is the Pali: attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) And seven translations: ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." Robert Eddison: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." Mahamakut Tipi.taka: "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a reality] Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law seem to me to be completely off the map, while the remaining five seem more or less defensible as far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamaane"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined -- or at least influenced -- by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamaane. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. Phew! Just to make things a little more complicated, it also has the negative particle na ('not') placed at the front, which then changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word anupalabbhamaane. The difference between my old rendering and the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if he is reading this. Best wishes, Dhammanando /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46567 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:55pm Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Andrew T, Thanks for persevering. ------------------------------- AT: > I am still confused by what your point is! --------------------------------- So am I. I have been trying to argue that it is possible to live ethically without being a complete hermit. But that's a bit rich coming from me, considering I have always been the most hermit-like person I know. I have made a lot of mistakes in trying to avoid unethical means of livelihood because there aren't any. The popular saying, 'Nice guys finish last,' is, unfortunately, true. -------------------------------- AT: > My guess is that when you say: "Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing!" You mean that views form and are acted upon but should not be clung to. ---------------------------------- I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in the conventional sense. -------------------------------------- AT: > [You *can't* mean that we never know what we are doing because that is a denial of panna, isn't it?] -------------------------------------- Is that the sort of thing panna knows? Panna can know whether a presently arisen dhamma is kusala or akusala, but that is quite different from knowing how much money to spend on an ancient cat; or whether to produce and sell products in a society already destroyed by over-consumption. --------------------------------- AT: > A useful paraphrase or a slanderous placing of words into your mouth? --------------------------------- A useful paraphrase. But is it wrong? Ken H 46568 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran jonoabb Hi KenH and Andrew kenhowardau wrote: >I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the >ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in >the conventional sense. > > I think you're arguing against acting on a partial but incomplete understanding of certain aspects of the teaching, like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first precept. Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your reference to the house full of termites? Jon 46569 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only philofillet Hi Tep Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your participation here. You keep me thinking, and you motivate very helpful posts from Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and others in response to your posts. > Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer the > Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, > suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? > Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this > sutta where the task ahead lies. > > Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the Buddha's, > then what else do you have as a better alternative? Ph: I didn't say I can't understand the words. I can understand the words. But and I can read the questions and dutifully answer, "yes, this and that are impermanent" etc. But it is all thinking. In the sutta, we find "seeing thus, the noble instructed disciple feels revulsion" etc. This is what I have come to call Ariyan revulsion, the response of one who has already reached the first stage of enlightenment. So when I read this wonderful sutta I feel deep awe at the wisdom of enlightened ones, but I know I don't have it and can't have it by intending to. That would be silly. But as I said in a thread to Howard, I do believe the Buddha's words can have a suibstantial impact in our lives when it comes to reducing - dramatically - the likelihood of moral transgressions. (Can't do it compeletely - only the soptapanna is beyond risk of moral transgressions.) So I will continue to read suttas with that aspiration in mind. As for subtler understanding, I can only patiently stay open to Dhamma, with patience. I know you and others believe a more intentional approach to developing direct understanding is possible. I cannot say for sure it isn't - that would be foolish. I wonder how you > could understand "where the task ahead lies" if you didn't grasp the > meanings of "impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the > realities/elements listed in the sutta". Ph: Of course I can grasp them intellectually. And at times experiencing a clarification of my daily experience in the light of this intellectual understanding. These moments come and go beyond my control. There are either more of them than I think, or fewer of them than I think. They have conditioning power of some degree - I don't know how much. Just as reading suttas has conditioning power of some degree- I don't know how much. I will continue to read, listen and reflect, with as few expectations as possible. (Except for the previouisly mentionned desire to reduce the likelihood of moral transgressions.) Thich Nhat Hahn used the memorable metaphor of the Dhamma soaking in like soft rain into hard earth. Patience. We tend to be so thirsty for Dhamma, for understanding. As Kh Sujin said, as soon as we hear about satipatthana, we want to have it. And right there is the lobha, and it's all wrong. Patience. (I guess we can call that lobha chanda and see it in a wholesome light if we want to. I think we should be cautious there.) I think you may agree with me that > to grasp the meanings of the three characteristics from the sutta > reading is not the same as to attain full understanding (parinna) of them. Ph: Yes, not the same at all. I hope all newcomers to Buddhism who come across suttas through access to insight also understand that as soon as possible. > Phil: Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the > Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am > capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about > the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the > realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can > get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. > > Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you > get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Ph: Read it and reflect on it whenever the opportunity arises in a natural, unforced way. Listen. Discuss. Turn to the Buddha's teaching for moral guidance in the area of moral transgressions that would make the patient approach described above less likely to arise. There is no other wise option for a busy married man living in the modern world, and in one of the most sensually stimulating cities in the modern world, bombarded constantly by sense impressions through six doors. I am not a monk and I think it would be foolish for me to pretend to be one. That may not be the case for you and others. Thanks again Tep. Keep up the great posts. I will be away from the list until next weekend so will not be able to respond until then. Metta, Phil 46570 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, all - > > > > Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is neither too > >long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's > >Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be your answer and why? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Tep > > ====== > Dear Tep, > > I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! > II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m > (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. > >(EDIT, I was in a hurry) When one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and >finally settles down and learns the factors of enlightenment, the jhanas and insight. > With Metta, > Lisa Okay I'm back and a little less fragmented on the writing side of my brain! Going from drawing to writing is freaky!!!! The Sutta begins with "I heard Thus." This sutta seems to be about the praise of Gotama and what a great teacher he is because of his well mannered disciples. Gotama's teaching skills and students are compared to other teachers and their students (of Gotama's time) who all seem to have many forms of attachment mainly with personal views. There is no gossip or back biting when Gotama teaches because it is understood by all that there is no I or self, me or mine to hold onto or defend and the sutta goes on to tell you just how this is done, step by step. I really like how the sutta goes over and over how Gotama praises his students and his students praise the teacher. There is no quibbling over who has better view or understanding because it seems that attachment to view of self has been let go of completely. Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? I do have a more intellectually inclined friend who is going to help me with this sutta because I do like it so much. We are both going to read it together and then share notes and insights. There are many passages that remind me of my own meditations especially with the colors. I've always seen colors blossom like flowers behind my closed eyes even when I didn't meditate. When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. This month of June has been very hectic, new job, new place to live and many things happening with our family, all good but very difficult to stay balanced even during great and very sweet times! There are so many things happening that I've worked very hard on for many yearts that are now bearing fruit and I really don't want to take it all to personal. I would like to look at all like this life stuff happening right now like a big garden and it's time to harvest and prepare what has been harvested correctly and also care for the garden for next years planting. it would be very nice to not fret and worry because there is really no me just lots of work to be done working the ground, weeding, planting, weeding, watering, harvesting and letting the ground lay fallow for the winter.... Time to rest and relax a bit I have no clue what's going to happen tomorrow so many interesting things have been happening lately plus being rested, eating right and reading a bit of Dhamma every day seem to really help... With metta, Lisa 46571 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 220 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a different person at different moments. In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala citta. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46572 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- lone_renunciant wrote: > But I think meeting > up with you guys would be cool. Real life interpersonal > communication does have its advantages over Internet chat lines or > study groups. ... S: Yes, advantages and disadvantages in both, I find. If we do come your way sometime, we won't need any entertaining btw -- we'll just be glad to meet you:). .... > P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). >The current picture is a very recent one, :) ... > > Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I > didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to > discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the > book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some > initial concerns out of the wahy? ... S: We can proceed anytime, anyway you like. Some long-term thread or series would be good, I think. However, you'd need to keep it going and do some of the donkey work, as I always have a lot of threads being 'juggled' in the air at anytime:). Any other initial concerns? I want to just pick up on one 'concern' you mentioned in another letter. You said, with regard to your r'ship with your father: A:"It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life is short for all of us)." S: This is very honest. We all have lots of fear and it's OK and normal. Slowly rectify the r'ship, a little more each day and it'll work out well, I'm sure. Your parents may never understand your interest in the Dhamma, but that doesn't matter at all -- one can learn to respect the other's path and they will respect yours when you live easily, skilfully and naturally with that path. You also mentioned: A: "If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of attachment." S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and other more common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we think attachment arises in. That would be a kind of wrong view in itself to think it's possible. At such moments there will be a strong clinging to 'me' without attachment, not realising that it's arisen already. Live your ordinary life, doing whatever you please and see that awareness can arise and be aware of any conditioned dhamma, Al. If we say there is not as much awareness as before and so on, again it shows the strong clinging to having more awareness, more good, more good results and so on. Who for? ME!! OK, end of my 'initial concerns':)). Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? Ch1 either way: The distinction between namas and rupas. Any questions, comments or confusion? When this is clear, the rest is all downhill imho. Metta, Sarah ======= 46573 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, I'm not so good at starting new threads over again, so I'll continue:) I thought you raised some good points for further reflection. .... --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: I'm taking 'concept' to be a word and a word is either a sound or > visible data on a page. ... S: I don't think that concept or pannati needs to be a word. A baby starts to have concepts or ideas about what is seen or heard long before there are any words. It learns to recognise and associate certain sounds, tastes and colours from the start. ... <..> >That's why it's problematical to equate > 'conceptual' and 'conventional'. But even 'conventional' isn't a very > satisfactory concept. A convention is an agreement but the sense of a > whole isn't really an agreement. We can give a whole a name, like 'Hong > Kong', but that doesn't make that whole, or sense of a whole, a name. > Maybe instead of 'conventional' we could call this sense 'ordinary' or > 'common' or something like that (deluded?). ... S: Sammuti Sacca or vohaara sacca (conventional truths)can be said or thought with deluded or non-deluded cittas. What is commonly agreed, i.e. Hong Kong as the name of the place. The Buddha would use the same term as the deluded worldlings. ... <...> >S:To give a more > obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. > Instant aversion, I think. > ------------------------------------ > > Larry: Good example. I was just going on the logic that desire or > aversion arises with ignorance so whatever is perceived is misperceived. > Can desire or aversion arise without ignorance? > > --------------------------------------- S: No, when there's desire or aversion, there's always ignorance. There can is desire or aversion with ignorance in the sense door process as well as the mind door process. So even before there is any concept about thunder, when the noise is heard, there's instant aversion with ignorance unless there's awareness. .... <...> > S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true > > natures. > ----------------------------- > > Larry: How do you know they are merely shadows of true natures? ... S: a)it says so in the texts:) and b) because when sati is aware of a reality such as sound or visible object, it's quite different from when there is an idea of sound or visible object or thunder. .... <...> > L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism > and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, > continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three > aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply > walking. ... S: I'd like to pick this one up a little more this time. Impermanence and anatta are characteristics of reality. I think it is the illusion of continuity (santati) that covers up the reality of impermanence. In other words, it seems that the realities are lasting because they 'continue' to arise and fall repeatedly in rapid succession like the cartoon film. I'm not sure where 'asabhava' came in here. The characterisitics are the sabhava of dhammas surely? .... > Larry: Isn't there some sutta where the Buddha says something like > 'don't say exists or not exists? .. S: If there is an idea of self, it makes no sense to say this Self exists or doesn't exist, because there's still a clinging to the idea of it. .... > The example of walking circles back to the first point (above) about > wholes. A person or walking are examples of wholes. In a sense they are > not 'really' objects of consciousness. ... S: They are objects of citta, but not objects of satipatthana. ... >Just as you can't actually > experience (see, feel, etc.) Hong Kong, in the same way you can't > actually experience a person or even experience walking. Yet, we do, > undeniably. ... S: Only 'in the mind', i.e only by conceptualising, with or without using words to do so. ... >The impermanence and continuity of realities are fashioned > into something without self-nature. For lack of a better word we call > this something a concept. It is possible to directly experience this > lack of self-nature. ... S: I think you are confusing Theravada sabhava (own nature) with attA (self. I assume you're referring to anatta or sunnata here? ... >Observe yourself walking or look at your face in > the mirror. If you look carefully you will see that there is nothing > there. That is what I mean by insight into 'concept'. ... S: When I look, there is visible object. It's not nothing. However, I agree that there's no self, no face, no mirror in the visible object. These are conceptualised, but there can never be insight into such conceptualisations, only into the visible object which appears. ... > > Apropos of our Vism. topic, ignorance, if, instead of seeing that there > is nothing there, you see that you can't see, maybe that is insight into > ignorance. If so, that places ignorance very close to wisdom: not seeing > or seeing not. ... S: :-/ .... > > I'm not 100% sure this stuff makes sense but if you want to continue > maybe we should start over. This thread is getting a little unwieldy. ... S: Apart from giving up on the last one, I was mostly following you, Larry:). I'm not sure if my comments make any more sense and I'll leave you with the same choices. Metta, Sarah ======= 46574 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:17pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Very nice post, Phil. Thanks. > At that time, I would have disagreed with what you say above. I > probably argued that the notion of reducing lust and anger and > ignorance is attractive to anybody. For my part, most of the time I am more interested in INCREASING lust and anger than eradicating them. But, then, I certainly find the NOTION of reducing lust and anger is indeed attractive -- just that my actions don't live up to my beliefs. That being said, I do hear people frequently talk favorably about the notion of increasing lust and anger, and judging by sales of viagra, porn, whiskey, and rancorous political fare, people seem pretty committed to increasing lust and anger. And me? I'm right with them -- well, not with them in the viagra, porn, and whiskey part, but with them in the doing of things that increase lobha/dosa. Despite my VIEW that reducing lust and anger are good things, I do quite a lot of things that increase them. > But now I feel you're right. If > we read the sutta in which the Buddha first taught the noble truths > without any degree of understanding, we just think about suffering > in human terms - stories about me, myself and I being torn away from > things I love and put together with the unloved etc. It's just a > story about people. If you talk about the deeper truth, that there > are no people, only conditioned nama and rupa - yes, the dirisive > laughter. Even the stories about people sound foolish. E.g., "The noble truth of suffering...even that chocolate milkshake you thought you were enjoying at lunch was really suffering," my Freshman religious studies teacher told us. She had a bit of a smirk on her face, and the class laughed and laughed. > I definitely find that my nose is out of the book more often as a > result of these discussions, hearing these talks. Of course, that's > too intentional, usually. But it's happening, for what it's worth. > My wife says I get spaced out, but at those times it's all thinking. I believe it was RobertK who told a wonderful story about meeting someone who was so proud of how much insight she had that she missed her plane and couldn't even recognize her husband. I'm sure I majorly mangled the details, but the point is, as you noted, that spaciness is not a sign of insight. > Direct understanding would come and go so quickly that no one would > know. (Including the knower, I guess - what do you think?) You are right that no "one" would know, but the knower (i.e., the mind with pañña) certainly knows. The knowing also leaves a mark, so subsequent minds have a sense of "memory" about the event. The mark entices subsequent minds to struggle to put words and a conceptual framework on the understanding. Here's where Buddha-dhamma and discussion can be so helpful -- putting tender direct understanding on firmer foundations that lay the groundwork for deeper understanding later. This consolidating is different from speculative theorizing about, say, nibbana or recalling past lives or details of the sequence of 17 cittas that make up such-and-such mental process. > Yes, I'm appreciating her more and more. But she also has written > books laying out the paramttha dhammas, as you know. She knows > there's a time for reading, a time for conceptualizing. Reading and talking are different. A good Dhamma friend like Kh. Sujin can skillfully tailor the words to the given situation. Text cannot. There is certainly a time and place for conceptualizing, but not for speculative theorizing. THAT kind of conceptualizing, of course, may well be insighted (as can any other akusala), but it doesn't play any special role beyond that of other akusala. > But she > makes sure that we don't get comfortable with it, makes sure that we > don't find ourselves exploiting it. I'm really feeling good about > the balance she helps us towards. Very grateful to have come across > these talks. Very glad to hear it. > As for the above, "buidling conceptual frameworks", I think there > can be an appreciation of a theoretical teaching, a noting it, > without clinging to building a framework. My studying is so random > that there can't be anything like a framework. A hetu here, a rupa > there, a lokuttara citta - whatever comes along in my reading. Very > random and disorganized. There is the self at work at times trying > to make things fit together, that's true. I see what you mean. > > Is that why you were insisting that there is no conceptual > eightfold path? Oh, there is a conceptual eightfold path all right, and there is the eightfold path of Right View, etc. -- and ne'er the twain shall meet. > I can't remember the details of your discussion with > Sarah. I know that since that time I have noted here that I never > think about what constitutes the path factors. I feel that thinking > about them doesn't seem help to condition them. No, I don't think it helps condition their arising, but it can help sañña to more powerfully mark them when they do arise, i.e., they may well cut a little deeper next time. > I think possibly > thinking about kusala in the hopes of having it will always be in > vain but that is not necessarily the case for akusala and hopes to > avoid it. I don't know why - haven't thought about it - but I think > conceptualizing and reflecting intellectually on akusala cetasikas > isn't as counter-productive as thinking about beautiful cetasikas. I > guess because there is less lobha involved. Yes, there is lobha > about wanting to understand them, but not the desire to have them, > obviously. In the case of kusala there is lobha about wanting to > understand them *and* wanting to have them. The desire to avoid > akusala might be less self-interested than the desire to have > kusala? I guess that depends on the individual's accumulations... We are powerless to do ANYTHING to cause or condition kusala or akusala. Whenever there is a thought or sense of "I" or "me" or "mine", the citta is akusala, and "we" can do nothing to shake the thought and sense of "I" or "me" or "mine". When pañña arises, the thought or sense of "I" or "me" or "mine" recedes momentarily as kusala citta arises. > > When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- > > coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual > > understanding", but the reality is "moha". > > Ph: There is almost nothing but moha all day long. The world is > created by it and is burning with it through the six doorways. If we > let that stop us, we would never open a book of suttas. Nothing can stop us from considering dhamma EXCEPT moha. There is ALMOST nothing but moha all day long, but the few moments of amoha are precious, marked by sañña, and motivate us to study more dhamma. > Do you think we could follow the path fruitfully without reading > suttas with out shallow degree of understanding and reflecting on > them, for what it's worth? Understanding begets thinking about Dhamma. Who can prevent an understanding mind from considering Dhamma more fully? Sutta reading may at times be a fruit of understanding. Or sometimes a fruit of lobha. Or of dosa. Is there a craving for a better intellectual grasp of this doctrine or that doctrine or for reading and mastering the Abhidhamma pitaka or the sutta pitaka? Fruit of lobha. > transgression. Without guidance from suttas there would be more > transgressions arising through Phil, I sense. Crude stuff. Then I'm very grateful for suttas. I'm grateful for them anyway, but even more so now. > I've meant so many people who have never > > heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper > insight > > into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) > > than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the > > technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; > > Ph: This is an obvious question, but how did you know this without > their expressing themselves in Dhamma terms, conceptual terms? Very different-sounding words can be used to describe the same characteristics and understandings; yet, very different phenomena and understandings may often be described by very similar-sounding words. What is the understanding that is really being described? Look for clues in a person's behavior, descriptions, reactions, etc. If they use a different vocabulary (e.g., Christian vs. Buddhist), try translating their descriptions of events, reality, and characteristics of attributed to "self" into Buddhist terminology. Is there evidence of their recognition of the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and dukkha? If they have any understanding these characteristics, then their words will reflect that understanding. Their conceptualizations will strongly emphasize the characteristics that they see most clearly. However, language that is filled with talk of the characteristics (whether in Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, etc. vocabulary) may also just reflect parroting of someone else's words or simply an intellectual understanding. A person with a deeper understanding will notice the three characteristics in many more circumstances and situations and will point them out in ways that seem new or will often respond to events very quickly with a tilakkana interpretation. Even then, though, the wise-sounding language may just be a highly trained intellectual reflex action. More discussion, more observation, over a longer span of time will gradually bring into focus the depth of the understanding. Or not. Sarah and Jon are both asking the same question, and a better explanation will be forthcoming. When? When the time allows for a decent post about it. Patience is urged. Metta, Dan 46575 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & other Cooranites/Qld DSGers, I know Nina already answered but I’d like to add a little more to your first question as you kindly addressed me too. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Firstly there was the question; "Does a cetasika experience its > object?" I would have thought the answer was clearly, yes. If I > remember correctly, the introductory pages of ADL tell us, "Nama > experiences an object; rupa doesn't experience anything." ... S: Yes. Atthasalini: “..the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to mental properties, because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc].” ... > However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only > nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" > that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I > think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to > panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not > experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) ... S: I had meant to question Htoo on this point . As Nina said, citta is the chief in experiencing, but the cetasikas experience the same object with their own particular functions. CMA, ch 11, Compendium of Mental Factors “Ekuppaada-nirodhaa ca ekaalambana-vatthukaa Cetoyuttaa dvipa~n~naasa dhammaa cetasikaa mataa” “The fifty-two states associated with consciousness that arise and cease together (with consciousness), that have the same object and base (as consciousness), are known as mental factors. BB Guide Note; “That arise and cease together (with consciousness): The first verse defines the mental factors by way of four characteristics that are common to them all: 1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada) 2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha) 3) having the same object as consciousness (ekaalambana) 4) having he same base as consciousness (ekavatthuka)” <...> “...all mental phenomena experience an object, co-arisen citta and cetasikas experience the same object, while material phenomena do not experience any object at all.” ... <...> Back to Htoo’s comment and the role of panna as forerunner in various suttas, let me add this quote from the Atthasalini too as clearly you’ve had some discussion on this point and I’d like to make it very clear. Atthasalini, Analysis of Terms: “But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena (pa.n.naasakusaladhammehi). But it may be said that consciousness has arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba"ngama.m). For in worldly phenomena consciousness (lokiya dhamma.m) is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.” Metta, Sarah ========= 46576 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH & all, KenH: > Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over > for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is > walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in > detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the > suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? ... S: I pointed out that the term, ‘pajaanaati’ (which he was referring to) was given in the Vibhanga as a synonym for panna. Remember the analogies of the way that the child, the old woman and the money-changer view the coins for the ways in which sanna, citta and panna experience dhammas? Perhaps we can say ‘knows clearly’. .. To requote from my earlier post if I may: S: >Pajaanaa(ti) is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na,sammaadi.t.thi, vipassanaa or anupassanaa as I understand. From the Satipatthana comy: (clearly sampaja~n~na, pa~n~naa and sammadi.t.thi are again given as synonyms): “sampajaanoti tattha katama.m sampaja~n~na.m? yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... sammaadi.t.thi. ida.m vuccati sampaja~n~na.m. iminaa sampaja~n~nena upeto hoti...pe0... samannaagato. tena vuccati sampajaanoti." Gacchanto – As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on .< **** S:New! Back to the other extract you referred to: (SN XXI.10), > which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking > about absolute (momentary) reality: > > "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case > where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is > relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of > being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living > alone is perfected in its details." ... S: As Nina said, we’d have to check the Pali in different contexts. Ok, here’s the Pali: for this one: ‘ekavihaaro vitthaare.na paripu.n.no’ Buddhadatta dict: “paripu.n.na (pp of paripuurati), quite full, fulfilled, complete; perfect” So it’s something like ‘living alone fulfilled/perfected’ here’. From a recent installment of ‘Cetasikas’ “We may find it difficult to see that even when we do not harm or hurt others, the citta can still be akusala. For example, when we like nature, there is a degree of attachment and attachment is not kusala, it is different from unselfishness. We may see the danger of akusala which is coarse, but it is difficult to see the danger of akusala which is more subtle.” Hope that helps a little, Metta, Sarah ====== 46577 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH (& Howard), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Thanks for your help with this. I agree with everything you have > said, but I want to talk, again, about possibly taking anatta too > far. If I have gone at it like a bull at a gate, it wouldn't be the > first time. ... S: :)Always good to hear your reflections, KenH. Hope you're undusting and posting some of those other drafted replies to other posts too:). .... > We are talking about two separate things here. Firstly, "Conditions > are never simple." Accordingly, it is a mistake to think, of any > conventional reality; "This is kusala kamma; that akusala kamma; > this is desirable vipaka; that is undesirable vipaka; this came > about by natural decisive support condition, . . . and so on." > > Secondly, we know (despite conventional evidence to the contrary) > that kusala kamma brings desirable results and akusala kamma brings > undesirable results. > > Bearing those two different things in mind, isn't it sensible to > learn about the conditioned realities; dana, sila and bhavana, > without trying to practise them? (I know this is consistent with > opinions you have expressed many times, but can it be taken too far?) ... S: All agreed and I don't see how it can be taken too far. (Howard whom you also addressed may not be so easy to please, however:) hope he joins in). .... > So, for example, if a house has termites its owner should have it > fumigated - because that's what householders do. ... S: I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. .... >He might be running > a grave risk: life here and now might be comfortable and termite > free, but the next life (or one after that) might be far less > comfortable as a result of his kamma. So be it. It is a risk > householders take. ... S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't this just speculation about various situations, rather than any understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. [OK, anecdote; a couple of weeks ago while I was doing my Tai Chi with Miss Wong, there was no running water from the artificial fountain in our high-rise 5th floor garden, the artificial pond was artifically stagnant and we were inundated by very 'real' mosquitoes which she was swatting away at and I was trying to ignore -- we were both being bitten a lot. When I returned upstairs, as we're told to do on the daily TV ads (because of the risk of dengue fever and encaphalitis in this part of town), I reported the problem to the management office and suggested they should take a look at the fountain and the stagnant pool. The next day, I got a report to say they'd dealt with the problem by bringing in the fumigation officers who had killed all the mosquitoes in the area. I hadn't had any intention of asking for this action, but anyone would assume I had, which is no problem] .... > > From time to time, a charity collector will knock on the door and > the householder will duly give $5. Again, there should be no attempt > at identifying; "This is willingness to give; that is reluctance to > give; this will bring happy/unhappy results," or anything of that > sort. Whatever will be will be. ... S: I agree. Otherwise, again it's wanting more kusala for self rather than developing understanding with detachment. .... > > It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma > grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities > are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the > case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right > understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of > knowingness would be just another idea of control. > What do you think? ... S: I think there will be less thought or concern about conventional activities....i.e less getting lost in the 'signs and details' as more understanding of realities grows. with regard to your p.s (snipped by mistake), I know you are not depressed by this and don't see it as 'a picture of helplessness and hopelessness :-)'. As you say, it's 'quite the reverse'. Learning to live alone with dhammas experienced through the six doorways is not depressing in the slightest. When there is panna, it illuminates. No need to move the objects around first. Metta, Sarah ======== 46578 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi AndrewT,(*for James) --- Andrew wrote: > I haven't had much time to post lately as Millie, the officer manager > cat well known to Cooran attendees has had a stroke and lost most of > her mobility. So I am nursing her constantly ... ... S: [kitty digression time -- Millie was also the name of my mother's cat that died....actually, she caused a little bit of to-do when she named her Millie because (unknown to her), her great grand-daughter was about to be officially called Millie too:) *James, I thought your kitty analogy was very cute....the friendly 'nip' when kitty is stroked a little too much:). As long as it's just a nip, no problem for any cat-lover, but if a visitor strokes kitty the wrong way and the 'nip' becomes a 'bite', then mightn't you get a little concerned for both kitty and the visitor? Still, even then, it's just kamma-result and other dhammas that can be known. I was reminded of this when I was bitten by a dog when visiting K.Sujin once. It was quite painful, but she just reminded me of kamma:)] Anyway, Andrew, hope your Millie gets well and that she can spare you for a little more posting:). ... <..> > I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how > impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly > knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. > Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no > abiding knower. ... S: Well put. .... > But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what > householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. ... S: Agreed. ... >Are you > saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma > as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when > deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both > tainted by ignorance? ... S: I think the point here is that when reflecting about the options and so on, it's just thinking, not direct awareness of what is conditioned already. We might think that we will just grin and bear the problem, find an alternative or leave kitty alone for awhile, but do the opposite when the time comes. Just conditioned dhammas to be known. Metta, Sarah ====== 46579 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & James, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Migajala Sutta succinctly emphasizes abandoning tanha as the > meaning of "living alone". ... S: Yes ... >But your interpretation of this sutta to > justify > foregoing of your seclusion and returning to family life was caused by > cravings (for household joys), rather than the opposite. ... S: Of course there are always mixed motives. Actually, it was pretty idyllic in many ways for a robot:). What I returned to, on the other hand, was complete household chaos, but that's another story. No, my interpretation of the sutta was and is that the deep meaning of seclusion or living alone has nothing to do with the surroundings and everything to do with the mental states. Previously I had had the idea that certain lifestyles were 'better' for the development of satipatthana. I no longer thought or think this. .... >Why didn't all > monks who listened to this sutta forego their monkhood and returned to > their household lives? .... S: Because they also understood that the Buddha wasn't suggesting they should lead a particular lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. He encouraged everyone to know themselves well, to really know their accumulations --whether as a bhikkhu or lay person -- and to develop satipatthana in order to abandon the partner of craving. Even the bhikkhus led very different lifestyles -- compare MahaKassapa's lifestyle with that of Ananda's. So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 46580 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I hope others give a sutta choice too. Of course, we all need to hear many, many suttas over and over again and none of us are going to become enlightened just by reading one:). --- Tep Sastri wrote: > However, the First Discourse does not give me enough detail to > practice for my Stream-entry. The detail I need is found in MN 9, > Samma-ditthi Sutta, a discourse by the Great Arahant Sariputta. > Therefore, MN 9 is my answer to the quiz question. ... S: This is very rich sutta indeed -- maybe a little longer than I understood your criteria to include:). You asked Nina for a sutta which differentiates between paramattha dhammas and pannatti and in other discussions between people and dhammas, I think. Isn't it always a question of how we read these suttas? For example, in MN9 under 'Ageing and Death' we read (Nanamoli/Bodhi tansl): "The passing of beings out of various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body - this is called death." ... S: I don't think anyone would have any problem with this definition of death, including non-Buddhists. So where is the profundity of the teachings we hear so much about? How does this relate to the section before it about the first Noble Truth? Let's look at the commentary note on these same lines: "Now, to explain death in (terms valid in) the ultimate sense, he next says 'the dissolution of the aggregates (khandhaana"m bhedo) etc* For in the ultimate sense it is only the aggregates that break up; it is not any so called being that dies. But when the aggregates are breaking up convention says 'a being is dying' and when they have broken up convention says '(he is) dead'." *Bodhi note: "Whereas the previous definitions were framed in conventional terminology, those valid in the ultimate sense (paramattha) define their subjects solely in terms of 'ultimate realities' such as aggregates and sense bases." ... S: So going back to the first Noble Truth, we read at the end: "...in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering." .... S:I would suggest that without clearly understanding what paramattha dhammas are, we are likely to read any sutta with ideas that people, beings and bodies actually exist and can be known. I welcome any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I have several of your other posts marked for replies, but I always need to consider and check references for you, Tep:)Like Phil, I greatly appreciate all your research and deep reflections as usual. ======== 46581 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Invariable Fact ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Any Cause produce an Effect: Therefore: Never do any even minor Evil! Neither openly here, nor in secret there... If having done bad or is doing wrong now, pain surely returns, even though one flee by flying away... The effect of any action, good as bad, follows the doer like a shadow that never leaves... Consequence is Certain... Why so ? Because one cannot hide anything for one's own mind! It knows & remembers! Mind is thus forerunner of all phenomena... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46582 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:37am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard, > I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, > among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism > or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to > be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the > Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead > uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" > or "is not found" or "does not obtain". That's true, but even among the Indian teachers outside the Buddhasaasanaa (including, e.g., the materialist thinkers) it was the norm for the ideas of presence and absence to be conveyed more often by verbs relating to findability than to existence. I suspect that this was either a standard circumlocution in philosophical discourse or just an idiomatic convention of Indic languages. I would therefore be cautious about reading too much into it, or seeing in it an anticipation of phenomenalism. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando 46583 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:13am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > I believe it was RobertK who told a wonderful story about meeting > someone who was so proud of how much insight she had that she missed > her plane and couldn't even recognize her husband. I'm sure I majorly > mangled the details, but the point is, as you noted, that spaciness > is not a sign of insight. ________ Dear Dan, Nice post. Just to add the details, she didn't miss a plane (I think that part was from a different story about sarah almost missing a plane). This friend understood that vipassana is not about thinking but about the direct seeing of realities at the 6 doors. So she thought that when seeing only see - and DON'T think about what was seen. So when she was DOING vipassana she couldn't (or thought she couldn't ) recognize anything, even her husband. This is trying to force insight: it doesn't work that way. Robert > 46584 From: "lone_renunciant" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: Discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to > reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. > > Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I > might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be > welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? > And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a > bad rebirth in the immediate future.< > .... > S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I > think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are > referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the > Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. > > We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the > Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' > and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas > disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The > outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of > white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, > could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to > penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the > last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising > of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). > ... > > S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need > to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine > and the discipline'. > > The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward > signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after > the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant > discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, > relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very > 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' > you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we > really have a say in the matter. > > Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the > discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the > right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This > way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly > pursuits. Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). Once my friend arrived, I could again see how beings were related to their merit, and how worldly-oriented people generally make a lot of demerit (some exceptions yes). I had the ability, just prior to this, if I so chose, to walk away and pursue "deeds of merit," and feel very strongly that I was walking along the path. This creates some unease in me because since I was hospitalized after my intial experiences with Buddhism I feel I have been conditioned off that path, even off the discipline. So anyway, after a brief stop, my friend and I left the donut shop and headed for a corner with two benches. I kind of could have described to him, the dhamma, and about how I felt I was doing, or what I could do, for future lives, but yesterday I was not feeling like a leader, so I was engaged in some 'basic' interaction, which, to my prior state, felt like idle chatter, but to what came later in the day, was still self-discipline. It eventually deteriorated into full idle chatter as I provided no direction for the evening and I could see how terribly wasteful people are of merit. You might point out that dhamma can be practised during idle chatter, but the doctrine & the discipline involves speaking *on* the dhamma and the discipline, what is meaningful, and so on, this includes abstaining from idle chatter. So this is sort of what I mean by the discipline. I could have created a whole world of dhamma for myself, but I didn't. I came away instead with a few lessons: as dhammapada and sutta nipata say: Don't live with the company of foolish or bad men (who are headed for rebirth as a bird), try to be more independent and take my own direction through life, try to be mindful and not rack up large amounts of demerit (begin practising all types of right speech when circumstances present themselves), and, more immediately, try to find and read about doing deeds of merit. This is trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 future lives, thinking about how / if I will get future (consecutive) human lives, realizing the rarity of human birth among other beings who haven't the merit now gives us almost an obligation to carry out our practise on a straight path to the end. A righteous friend would be nice, I do not know if I can do the major work of this alone, but I can try, if I keep these points in mind, and think on the dhamma occasion to occasion, perhaps even trying to 'force it' less than I currently do. Yes, that was somewhat of an admission that I force practise, when sometimes the path just unfurls itself to me when I least expect it. I simply don't have any certainty. I would be open to feedback in this department if anyone would be so kind, open-minded if there are any new ideas presented that seem to accord with my past and potential future experiences. Perhaps it's all or none, that is, I should have told my friend what I was doing with myself from that point and left instead of letting it be nothing but a Dunkin Donuts trip and idle chatter going from bar to bar looking for one with the NBA Finals on TV (No drinking, just wanted to see the game ;) and idle chattering a-lot. I do find it difficult to speak on the dhamma, I'm not very articulate, perhaps because I sometimes read about it in an obsessive or addictive way. so that takes away, but still, I should be able to salvage something. Anyway, hope this provides a glimpse for others on the list for what I was talking about when I mention discipline and clear up the ideas I shared with Sarah previously off the list. G.l., A.L. 46585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (Sarah and James) - Ph: Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your participation here. Tep: That is nice to hear, after I have been blasted lately! Ph: But as I said in a thread to Howard, I do believe the Buddha's words can have a suibstantial impact in our lives when it comes to reducing - dramatically - the likelihood of moral transgressions. So I will continue to read suttas with that aspiration in mind. As for subtler understanding, I can only patiently stay open to Dhamma, with patience. Tep: Thank you for the clarification, Phil. I also like that comment on staying open to the Dhamma with patience. Ph: I will continue to read, listen and reflect, with as few expectations as possible. (Except for the previouisly mentionned desire to reduce the likelihood of moral transgressions.) Thich Nhat Hahn used the memorable metaphor of the Dhamma soaking in like soft rain into hard earth. Patience. We tend to be so thirsty for Dhamma, for understanding. Tep: That is a nice metaphor! The water will keep the ground moist and cool, if the weather is not too hot. > Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you > get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Ph: Read it and reflect on it whenever the opportunity arises in a natural, unforced way. Listen. Discuss. Turn to the Buddha's teaching for moral guidance in the area of moral transgressions that would make the patient approach described above less likely to arise. Tep: That is perfect with respect to gaining deeper intellectual understanding. Ph: I am not a monk and I think it would be foolish for me to pretend to be one. That may not be the case for you and others. Tep: Frankly, although I am a lot older than you, your understanding of the Teachings does not seem to be different. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer > the > > Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, > > suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in > the sutta? > > Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I > read this sutta where the task ahead lies. > > > > Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the > Buddha's, then what else do you have as a better alternative? > 46586 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Thep, > I can see that it has nothing to do with > "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). For modern academic buddhologists saccato thetato marks the first stage in a doctrinal evolution that eventually culminates in the notion of paramattha dhammas: saccato thetato, leading to ..... propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to ..... sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. They then voice various opinions on how much the later conception was/was not implied by the earlier one. For commentary-following Theravaadins, on the other hand, the difference is viewed as only one of phrasing, not meaning. The only things that are real are things that exist saccato thetato, and according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. And so the most traditional of commentary-following Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Their disagreement only concerns the nature of this connection. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46587 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:14am Subject: Middle Ways, Out of social context, and a Dhamma quizz jwromeijn Hallo After I send my message, quoted below, in the thread "out of social context" I thought: the Middle Way principle and Abhidhamma don't fit together very good, because Abhidhamma (or the way it's used most times here) is very absolutistic: something is kusala or akusala, something is a concept or it's ultimate truth. Joop (in # ) : "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" In 'Useful Posts' the Middle can only be found four times, the most interesting was of Jon in # 3836. Jon: "Some time ago there was some discussion on the question of the Middle Path – What are the various extremes for which the Path is the middle? … a passage from the first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya titled "Crossing over the Flood" the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." Recently I came across this sutta in the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as `The Connected Discourses of the Buddha'. The translation there is – "It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood." In a note to the sutta it explains that this is a reference to the middle way (majjhima patipada) and it gives 7 pairs of extremes that are mentioned in the commentary to the sutta. They are - (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining by way of volitional formations [kkhanddha], one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks; by way of views one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations[akusala sankhara] one sinks, by way of all wholesome mundane volitional formations [kusala sankhara] one gets swept away." This are examples of one of the meanings, as far as I understand it, the term Middle Path has in the Suttas: prescriptive, about the right behavior. An example of this use of the term isalso : Practicing the Middle Way (Devadaha Sutta) Majjhima Nikaya 101 Andrew Olendzki: "The Buddha's profound teaching of the middle way, applied particularly to the dynamics of meditation practice, is the theme of this passage from the Devadaha Sutta. The point is finding the right balance between "striving with determination" and "looking on with equanimity." Neither approach is correct all the time, but each can be used as a skillful technique for addressing certain mental states. The two approaches complete one another." Another meaning of the term "Middle Way" is of a philosophical kind. It's the way I used the term in my message. It's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes. The extremes of The annihilationist view and the eternalist view in the most important (I think) example of it: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) Metta Joop 46589 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Lisa - I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it, you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and receive the due honour for it." The Great Sage praised his disciples who asked questions about the Bodhipakkheya dhammas: the Four Noble Truths; the method for developing the four foundations of mindfulness; the method for developing the four right endeavours; the fourfold super normal powers (bala);the method for developing the fivefold mental faculties(indriya); the method for developing the seven enlightnment factors; the method for developing the Noble Eightfold path. Then he talked about "the method for developing the eight releases" (vimokkha), the method for developing the eight masteries (special perceptions), the method for developing the ten kasina signs, the method for developing the four jhanas, the various supernormal powers, the method for destroying desires or releasing the mind of desires, and lastly how to be released through wisdom. Lisa: Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? ... ... When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. Tep: Do you want to know how the color pattern (perception) arises, or why the pattern you saw during your retreat does not appear anymore? Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. > > Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? > I do have a more intellectually inclined friend who is going to help me with this sutta because I do like it so much. We are both going to read it together and then share notes and insights. There are many passages that remind me of my own meditations especially > with the colors. I've always seen colors blossom like flowers behind > my closed eyes even when I didn't meditate. When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. > That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color > when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. > 46590 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:22am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi John, > Are you saying that people who have not heard the teachings could > develop a deep understanding of anatta as a characteristic of reality? Yes. More later... > > I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient > >depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still > >POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what > >99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. > > > > I think this comparison raises quite different issues. One could > probably make a similar comment about the core concepts of any religion ;-)) Yup. I don't know very much about Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism, but Buddhism and reformation Christianity share the core doctrine of the tilakkana, albeit expressed in different words. Dan 46591 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr12no3/majjhima75-101.html Tep: Hi, Lisa - I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it,you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and receive the due honour for it." L: 06/13/-- Tep,these people, the Forest Dwellers were not part of the monastic community they come in from the wild places to listen to the Teachings? They are renunciates? Could this also apply to a city dweller like me who isn't a Nun but listens to Buddha's teachings and reads the doctrine? And twice a year I go to retreat for two weeks and listen to Dhamma teachings and meditate. I dwell secluded and alone most of the time even when I am walking in a crowd and living among millions of people I am alone. All the people, sky scrapers, and busy things to do are just like all the trees and their busy leaves dancing in the wind and all the ants running up and down their tree trunks putting away food for another day. And the other forest dwellers going about their daily tasks are just as busy as the city dwellers going about their daily lives. Do you have to go to the forest to be a renunciate? Can't one practice renunciation anywhere because where ever you are you cannot avoid what's going on in the head and body the body and mind are always there whether in the forest or in the city with company or without company. Can't the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytime or do you have to be physically secluded to do this? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? If seculsion, that is external seculsion is important than many people who live secluded simple lives away from social obligations surely have found release from the dreary rounds of rebirth because they to live simple secluded lives in the forest and also follow the Dhamma just as the Gotama's Forest Dwellers who also are honored in this passage. There are also many people who are in prison and mentally ill who also follow Dhamma as best they can and they too live secluded lives away from the busy social life. What is the difference from these people and the Forest Dwellers? Shouldn't all that follow Dhamma be honored and praised just as the Forest Dwellers are also praised because there is really no self there just dhammas? [[Does the honor go to one who has let go of any idea of I and therefore knows s/he is not one or many? Where does the honor go when it is given to someone like this? The giving due honor to whom or what, how does this help us unbind from craving and aversion? When there really is no me or mine how can one give this honor? Who receives it and who gives it? So the giving of honor just is and that is all it is and it does not belong to anyone or anything. It is empty and void and those who seek it or want it shall only find dukkha. Why does the Great Sage give praise to what is empty? I think this is why there was such deep silence in Gotama's circle.]] Tep: The Great Sage praised his disciples who asked questions about the Bodhipakkheya dhammas: the Four Noble Truths; the method for developing the four foundations of mindfulness; the method for developing the four right endeavours; the fourfold super normal powers (bala);the method for developing the fivefold mental faculties (indriya); the method for developing the seven enlightnment factors; the method for developing the Noble Eightfold path. Then he talked about "the method for developing the eight releases" (vimokkha), the method for developing the eight masteries (special perceptions), the method for developing the ten kasina signs, the method for developing the four jhanas, the various supernormal powers, the method for destroying desires or releasing the mind of desires, and lastly how to be released through wisdom. L: 06/13/ Excellent summary of the Sutta thank you very much I saved it along with my notes. I will use that as an example of how to summarize. Thank you very much Tep. Lisa: Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? ... ... When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. Tep: Do you want to know how the color pattern (perception) arises, or why the pattern you saw during your retreat does not appear anymore? Kind regards, Tep L: 06/13/ Yes I would like to know why these colors came up and why they went away if it is helpful to letting go of my attachment to any idea or thought of self. When one color became dominate it took up my whole vision and it started out as a small dot and grew until it filled up the vision field. It was like swimming into a world of color and as I sat there and just watched this with my eyes closed. I think I went through five coloredworlds, green, purple, orange, yellow and red including no color it was black, and gray and something that was like gold but wasn't exactly a color it was more like just glowing light that was everywhere. There wasn't really any nice or painful sensation just a kind of wonder at what was going on as I watched and if a thought came up about what was happening I just watched it like I was watching the colors. Although I do not swim through worlds of color I still see colors when I meditate. After the retreat when I went home the anxiety that I usually suffered from had lessened to a point where it no longer took my breath away and I could watch it as it manifested. I could let it go even when I was doing stressful things like driving my Mini Van full of screaming 10 year olds. I wonder if this is because I learned to let go of the colors and thoughts during retreat. In my Dhamma studies I had never read about anything like this so when I went to retreat I did as my teacher said and just sat and let everything that was in my head and body, come and go as it wished. I never really discussed this with my meditation teacher and my Dhamma teacher told me to be careful not to get attached to the meditation when I told him about everything that happened at the retreats I went to, so I just let the stuff in the head and body come and go as it wished. I didn't want to form another attachment to meditation too. L:06/13/ The next post I have will be about the paragraph during the start of this sutta where it seemed to mention Gotama's past life and how he sat in silence and listened to a Buddha and I wonder if that set up the conditions up when he became a teacher? Or maybe I'm confused over the tenses in the paragraph. I have to go to work now my boss just saw me working on my Dhamma Quiz. He is very tolerant and that is why I work for him (The best Boss in the World). With Metta, Lisa 46592 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 6/13/05 6:38:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Dear Howard, > I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, > among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism > or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to > be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the > Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead > uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" > or "is not found" or "does not obtain". That's true, but even among the Indian teachers outside the Buddhasaasanaa (including, e.g., the materialist thinkers) it was the norm for the ideas of presence and absence to be conveyed more often by verbs relating to findability than to existence. I suspect that this was either a standard circumlocution in philosophical discourse or just an idiomatic convention of Indic languages. I would therefore be cautious about reading too much into it, or seeing in it an anticipation of phenomenalism. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando ======================= You could, indeed, be right in this. It is plausible. Of course it might also be that the main thrust of Indian thought was along subjectivist, mind-only lines, and that influenced language usage, even that of the materialists. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46593 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/13/05 2:04:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, I'd like to re-post the Pali (cleaned up this time) and ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi translation for the paragraph from the Alagadduupama Sutta, MN22 #25.: Translation (with a few key Pali words added): ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self (attain), would there be what belongs to my self (attaniye)?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended (anupalabbhamaane) as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views (di.t.thi.t.thaana.m), namely, 'The self and the world are the same (so loko so attaa); after death I shall be permanent (nicco), everlasting (dhuvo), eternal (sassato), not subject to change (aviparo); I shall endure as long as eternity (sassatisma.m)' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching (baaladhammo)?" ...... Pali ======== 37. Attani vaa bhikkhave sati' attaniya.m me'ti assaati? 'Eva.m bhante.' Attaniye vaa bhikkhave sati 'attaa me'ti assaati? Eva.m bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane* yampida.m** di.t.thi.t.thaana.m 'so loko so attaa, so pecca bhavissaami nicco dhuvo sassato avipari.naamadhammo, sassatisama.m tatheva .thassaamii'ti, nanaaya bhikkhave kevalo paripuuro baaladhammoti? 'Ki.m hi no siyaa bhante, kevalo paripuuro*** baaladhammo'ti. ..... (Pali foot-notes- *Anupalabbhiyamaane, syaa. Sii **Yampi ta.m, machasa.m ***. Kevalo hi bhante paripuuro, machasa.m.) ..... S: Also, Howard, I pointed out your message to Jim A and he also saw Ven Dhammanando's comprehensive comments in the meantime. He wrote: Jim:>I thought his post (#46496) was excellent and provides a better explanation than I could have. There doesn't seem to be anything I can add.< Metta, Sarah ========================= Thank you very much for this, including contacting Jim. While one could imagine even more direct language, this sutta certainly constitutes the strongest no-self Dhamma teaching that I have seen so far. It certainly goes beyond a "not self" statement, and it is very far from merely being an expression of a not-self "strategy". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46594 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Thanks for re-telling the story correctly, Robert. You tell good stories. Dan > This friend understood that vipassana is not about thinking but > about the direct seeing of realities at the 6 doors. So she thought > that when seeing only see - and DON'T think about what was seen. So > when she was DOING vipassana she couldn't (or thought she couldn't ) > recognize anything, even her husband. This is trying to force > insight: it doesn't work that way. 46595 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for coming in on my post to Howard. I'd just like to comment on one of your points. Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Jon (and Howard, among others) - >... >2. My experience indicates that when I am fully aware of an object >(arammana) there is sati-sampajanna, and there is no akusala. But >when the mind is defiled by an akusala, awareness only arises after >the defilement has subsided. So there is a time delay before >awareness is back in control. Then I can meditate by citta-nupassana >on the mind state (with the subsided defilement). The good news is : the >more often I direct attention to practice citta-nupassana every now and >then, the shorter the awareness-time-delay becomes. > > I would say that whether the on-going mind-state is kusala (such as metta) or akusala (such as dosa), it is possible for awareness to arise during that on-going mindsatate, just as it is possible for other mixed kinds of consciousness to arise. Think of enjoying something but experiencing painful feeling at the same time, or any other number of similarly examples. In the same way, awareness can arise regardless of the nature of the on-going mental state at the time. Jon 46596 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard, > You could, indeed, be right in this. It is plausible. Of > course it might also be that the main thrust of Indian > thought was along subjectivist, mind-only lines, and that > influenced language usage, even that of the materialists. > :-) Could be! But we'll end up with a strange bunch of theories if we go down that road. Perhaps the fact that Pali has three verbs "to be" but no verb "to have" suggests its speakers were Frommians as well as subjective idealists. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando 46597 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:38pm Subject: objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, This is how you start over. First, you erase the completely irrelevant subject heading and put a more appropriate one in its place. Then, ask a question: When ignorance experiences an object, it gets it wrong somehow. Isn't that mistake what is the object of desire? Do you desire paramattha dhammas, dhammas that are impermanent, painful, and empty? Examples? When you knowingly experience a paramattha dhamma, do you do so with desire or aversion? What do you desire right now? Larry 46598 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Jon and Andrew T (and Sarah), I was about to send the following post when I read Sarah's latest, very helpful, contributions to this thread. Perhaps she has answered all of my questions. See what you think: ------------------------- Jon: > I think you're arguing against acting on a partial but incomplete understanding of certain aspects of the teaching, --------------------------- Yes, but I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a clearer picture of what I was talking about. ------------------------------------------------ J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first precept. ----------------------------------------------- That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, eventually, not even have my own kitchen. There is the obvious objection, "Who is going to do the dirty work? Someone has to grow the crops and remove vermin from the restaurants etc." The equally obvious answer has been, "There is no shortage of people who are only too willing to do those jobs." I'm not sure that answer is entirely satisfactory. It hints at a them- and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators (for example) can't be as good as other people. But I think the suttas tell us about hunters, soldiers and even an executioner who attained the final goal. Are we to assume that they followed those careers only before hearing the Dhamma? Even so, they must have had extraordinary accumulations of sila and panna at the time. In at least one of those cases (quoted in Sarah's musings thread) the hunters were the husband and sons of a sotapanna. Surely they would have heard the Dhamma from her. If so, that would suggest they were good Buddhists even while carrying on their 'wrong' livelihoods. (I realise, BTW, they couldn't continue in wrong livelihood after Stream-entry.) ------------------------------------------------------ J: > Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your reference to the house full of termites? ------------------------------------------------------ As I was saying, I still don't have this perspective clear in my mind. But, yes, I think there would be wrong understanding in any Buddhist householder who agonised over fumigating his termite- infested house. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi KenH and Andrew > > kenhowardau wrote: > > >I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the > >ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in > >the conventional sense. > > > 46599 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 6/13/05 7:25:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Could be! But we'll end up with a strange bunch of theories if we go down that road. Perhaps the fact that Pali has three verbs "to be" but no verb "to have" suggests its speakers were Frommians as well as subjective idealists. :-) ========================= Point well taken! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46600 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > *James, I thought your kitty analogy was very cute....the friendly 'nip' > when kitty is stroked a little too much:). :-)) Glad you liked it. As long as it's just a nip, no > problem for any cat-lover, but if a visitor strokes kitty the wrong way > and the 'nip' becomes a 'bite', then mightn't you get a little concerned > for both kitty and the visitor? Don't worry, that doesn't happen. My cat is very friendly with visitors and strangers and hasn't 'bitten' anyone. He will even let the men who deliver my groceries or pick up my laundry pet him. Metta, James 46601 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:42pm Subject: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks > not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be > hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the > whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different > lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't > preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting > this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== You didn't speak too much about the temple itself. If there was an arahant monk leading that Sri Lankan forest temple, do you think you still would have left? Granted, one can follow the Buddha's teachings as a householder, but it is much more difficult (as the Buddha taught and as you experienced upon your return home). It is a very nice sutta though and it reminds people that living like a monk is no guarantee for happiness. Happiness comes from defeating Mara who is with us all the time- in the forest temple and in family home. It was nice for you to share the sutta you believe best meets Tep's requirements: <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry">. I have also picked a sutta, "The Great Lion's Roar" DN8, which I will post about later as I am busy packing (getting ready to move and travel). Take care. Metta, James 46602 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. Evan_Stamato... Hi Sarah, I would like to point out that the suttas do make it clear that a particular lifestyle is better for developing satipatthana. In many suttas, when a bhikkhu attains nibbana, the following stock phrase is used: "He in no long time entered and remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness." So they are right to go forth from home life into homelessness. Also, it is said of the home life that it is "dusty" as is shown below - in this case the Buddha's own thoughts while he was still a Boddhisatta (MN36). "The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell." This stock phrase is also used to refer to a "householder or a householder's son" as is MN38. As I see it, the Buddha makes it clear that the homeless life makes it easier to lead the holy life. Metta, Evan .... S: Because they also understood that the Buddha wasn't suggesting they should lead a particular lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. He encouraged everyone to know themselves well, to really know their accumulations --whether as a bhikkhu or lay person -- and to develop satipatthana in order to abandon the partner of craving. Even the bhikkhus led very different lifestyles -- compare MahaKassapa's lifestyle with that of Ananda's. So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 46603 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:42pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 221 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Because of ignorance we take the satisfaction in pleasant experiences through the senses for true happiness. Do we consider the enjoyment of pleasant things the goal of our life? We tend to forget that pleasant things do not last, that our body declines and that we are susceptible to sickness and death. There is ignorance with each akusala citta. At such a moment we do not know the danger of the accumulation of akusala. If we do not develop right understanding of realities we live with our dreams and illusions. We want happiness for ourselves and we are ignorant of what is kusala and what is akusala. Thus there is bound to be decline in good qualities. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sixes, Chapter VIII, §10, Day and Night): * … Monks, if a monk follow six things, come day come night, just a falling away in right things may be expected, not a growth. What six? Herein, monks, a monk desires much, is fretful, discontented with this and that requisite: robe, alms, lodging, medicaments— is without faith or virtue, is indolent, forgetful in mindfulness and lacks insight. Monks, if a monk follow these six, come day come night, just a falling away in right things may be expected, not a growth. (But the opposite is true for a monk who is not like that.)" * This sutta can remind both monks and laypeople that if there is no mindfulness of the reality appearing at this moment, no development of insight, there will be decline in good qualities. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46604 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, I'm very glad to see you posting again. I apologise for the delay in responding to your earlier message addressed to me and others. Let me try to give a few comments now. --- Joop wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > "Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus `Worldly > life > > is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view', there descends the Great > > Compassion for beings." (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great > > Compassion). .... Joop: >I concluded: "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another > person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering > being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too > extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; ... S: I don't think so. There is the dukkha which refers to bodily and mental pain and suffering, the dukkha which refers to the loss of the pleasant and the deepest meaning of dukkha, as in the first NT which refers to the impermanence of the khandhas. (see 'dukkha' in U.P.) .... > the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. .... S: Again, I don't believe this is correct. When there is compassion, for example, for a 'suffering being' there doesn't need to be any idea of a being actually existing or of permanence. Wrong views arise at different moments from the cittas accompanied by compassion and so on. I used to find this a difficult point too, so I understand. Let me know if you'd like more explanation. .... >The middle > way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative > correct at the same moment!" ... S: In truth, there are just 5 khandhas. Understanding this truth and the ignorance which keeps samsara spinning, leads to more compassion, not less as I see it. Very good points to discuss further. ... > > From that conclusion I have two questions about your quotes: > - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not > ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I > am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are > not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, > this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that > direction? ... S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these dhammas are 'universal truths'. SN22:94 "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change......Feeling....Perception....Volitional formations....Cosnciousness......;this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." .... > - If a person (not 'me' but also another one) had to be seen as a > mere convention or concept; the question is: can a concept suffer, > have dukkha ? (I think the answer is no, only a being can, and > the 'I' can. Perhaps it's very akusala but I cannot have compassion > with a concept) .... S: No, not akusala -- these are very good and important reflections as I see it, Joop. Thank you for sharing them. It's a difficult point and an important one. It seems like a conundrum, but it does 'hang together'. No, a concept doesn't suffer. Only namas experience suffering and only dhammas (namas and rupas) have the characteristic of dukkha. When there is compassion, a being or person (concept) is the object, because it is the idea of that person's suffering or difficulty that we have compassion for. Clearly we cannot experience another's pain or anguish, for example, except conceptually. We may say, 'I feel your grief', but at such a time, the reality is our own grief or compassion on account of the other's grief. I'll pause here and you can help me to understand deeper what your concern is if I've missed the boat. I haven't read your recent posts yet as I'm a little behind, but just seeing your name reminded me to get back to you on this one. I'd like to follow it through, but slowly. I hope Connie & Herman who were also addressed by you, might also add any comments. Metta, Sarah ============ 46605 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Dear Dan,(& Phil*) I'm appreciating all your discussions with various people as usual. Just a couple of brief comments on the post to me while we wait for your further elaborations: --- "Dan D." wrote: > The language is of less importance than the underlying realities that > are being described. It makes no difference at this stage whether or > not the underlying reality is described as "kamma" or "karma" > or "works"; "viññana", "motivation", or "heart"; "akusala" > or "sinful"; "kusala" or "pure"; "silabbataparamasa" or "works > righteousness"; "sila" or "law". It is quite possible for someone who > has never heard any Buddhist terms or conceptualizations to have > deeper insight into silabbataparamasa and be able to explain it more > clearly than a devout Buddhist who can discuss in great detail and > intricacy the conceptual framework of long racks of Pali terms. ... S: I think this 'devout Buddhist' set of arguments which pops up from time to time in your posts is a bit of a red herring. No one here believes that 'great detail' and 'long racks of Pali terms' etc equates with wisdom or developed satipatthana. We all quote the ways of handling the snake frequently:). Also, no one believes that the book terminology is anything other than a convenient framework to discuss dhammas together with. And yes, someone who is quite unfamiliar with Buddhist terms etc may well recognise more obvious wrong practises...... .... > Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's > dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding > of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours > using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic > of reality. ... S: Yes, it is where we differ. Forget about those who 'talk for hours and hours....' who may or may not have any understanding of namas and rupas. But definitely, as I read the texts and according to any little understanding there is now of namas and rupas, I think it's quite impossible to develop any 'sophisticated, deep understanding of anatta' for anyone who hasn't heard about dhammas as such (in any kind of language). Of course, some people need to hear a lot more than others. I'm curious, Dan. I've given you various references before which I don't think you've responded to. Do you think they are wrong? For example, do you disagree with the following from 'Dispeller' which I've given in more detail before? "For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened One only." ... >I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient > depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still > POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what > 99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. At the deepest levels, though, > the Buddhist conceptual framework is required if enlightenment is to > be attained. ... S: I wouldn't be concerned about 99.9999% Buddhists -- I don't think it's helpful. I've also given lots of references to the value of pariyatti, to careful listening, considering and so on, in other words to the value of a conceptual framework. I quoted a sutta from AN on this the other day. If there was no point in listening, reading and reflecting on dhammas or if it wasn't necessary for satipatthana to begin to develop, the Buddha wouldn't have taught at such length. In the end, it just comes down to what can be tested out and proved at this moment. Any framework is only for the present understanding of dhammas, not for the sake of gathering a more and more refined framework. [*Phil, I asked K.Sujin once why she gave so much detail in some of the Foundation Bulletins, for example. Like on the 'anusaya'. She said it was because people argue over the points and details:). Also, you were speculating about why she doesn't give so many sutta references in the English discussions. It's partly because they are very informal and often 'on the road' whereas the Thai lectures or sessions are more formal. The references are all there, but we need to find them ourselves:). For example, she often talks about the value of just understanding a few words or even one word like 'dhamma' rather than just memorising at length for the sake of collecting lots and lots of detail. This was the essence of the AN sutta I quoted the other day. Or when she mentions the 'curtain of ignorance' or only knowing someone's wisdom by questioning over a long time -- it's all in the texts. I'm always coming across textual references relating to comments she's made. On the pariyatti point you referred to on a tape where I mentioned the present doubt or frustration and then she added a comment about considering all the 'subtle process cittas' as anatta -- both are correct and 'complete' answers:) No rule of how one should reflect or what awareness should be aware of at any given time. Otherwise, we may have the idea that we should think or be aware in a certain way or of a certain object again. Another time there may be wise reflection at that moment on the great knowledge of the Buddha who directly penetrated all these dhammas himself. I've heard KS herself give many, many different answers] ... > This is just an introduction. I'm running out of time to do any sort > of justice to these issues today, but they are important and I intend > to post more about them soon. > > I need to rush through the rest of your great post now but will > revisit later. ... S: Thanks for all your kind posts, Dan....I'm quite sure the key to the questions is the present development of satipatthana. You're also raising good issues with Nina and others. Metta, Sarah ===== 46606 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Tep: I agree with you that the most important thing is to get to the > real > dhamma regardless of what "language" (paramattha- or vohara- > sacca) we are using -- it doesn't matter whether we use a raft or a > boat > to go to the the other shore. > ------------------------- ... S: good. ... > > S: My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion > and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? > > Tep: You quoted the Pali: 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii > pahitatto vihareyyanti'. I then used the Pali-text Society to get the > following meanings. > > Ekodi = eka + odi : of one attention, limited to one point > Eka = one alone > Vupakattha = withdrawn, drawn away (from), secluded > Appamatta = diligent, careful, heedful, vigilant, alert, zealous > Pahinati [pa+hi, Sk. hinoti] to send > Pahita2 [pp. of pahinati] sent > pahit-atta "puts forth all his strength" > Viharati (p. 642) [vi+harati] to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn (in a > certain > place) > Viveka = detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" > (of heart), discrimination (of thought) > > So the Pali phrase should mean: being alone and dwelling diligently, > one puts forth strong effort to be alert (mindful). Therefore, I believe > both > bodily and mental seclusion are required. > ------------------------------- S: thank you for the helpful research. You may be right here -- I'm not sure. As we've seen in other contexts, the deepest meaning of 'dwelling alone' and viveka refer to mental seclusion rather than bodily seclusion. So I wouldn't just assume it from the words like 'eka'-one alone. We all have to learn to live alone, regardless of our lifestyles. .... > S: Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 > doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they > appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 > worlds, `atapi sampajanno satima' can arise and develop instantly, > being aware of one such dhamma at a time. > > Tep: I believe it is the reverse of what you said is what I understand : > i.e. > with constant practicing or development of sati-sampajanna and right > exertion, the monk becomes `atapi sampajanno satima', .... S: Remember that these refer to the mental factors of viriya, panna and sati which have to be developed as mundane path factors. There is no monk to ever become 'atapi sampajanno satima'. These are transient mental states only, but maybe I misunderstand you. ... > and the > consequence is what you said :"understanding that there are just > dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly > known at this very moment". That is the main difference or "disagreed > point" between us. I believe that understanding (samma-nana) follows > samma-samadhi, and samma-samadhi is supported by samma-sati > and samma-vayama (including the other path factors). Yours is the > opposite. Right? ... S: Without samma-ditthi or panna, samma-samadhi cannot develop. They support each other, along with the other path factors such as samma-sati, samma-vayama and samma-sankappa. Remember the suttas about right understanding being the forerunner like the dawn? Also the stress on samma-ditthi in your selected sutta of course. .... > S: Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, > 73,'Dhamma-viharin Sutta'– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu > who `neglects seclusion...'. The Pali here for seclusion is `ekii > bhaava"n > vissajjeti',`lit: being alone, setting free', I think. Perhaps this also > refers > to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of `the seen' and so > on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of > > freedom. > > Tep: Yes, you're right. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit > himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who > is > keen on thinking, not "one who dwells in the Dhamma". Thus, he does > not develop direct knowledge of the realities. ... S: Well put. .... > > S: B.Bodhi's note on this part of the sutta: > "It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, `Five Bases of > Liberation'] <..> > S: In other words, we're back to the important reminders about right > handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that > one > should be in physical seclusion and far away from one's books, > teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? > > Tep: I am lost here, Sarah. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation so I > don't > understand the two cases. .... S: Sorry not to be clear. The point was just that in the earlier sutta which RobertK recently posted (5 kinds of Liberation), 'the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here (in the Dhamma-Viharin Sutta) he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.' So the stress is not on living in isolation or seclusion, but on the wise use of what is heard and studied. As I quoted from another AN sutta, 4s 186, recently: "even if he but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart." Again we're reading about pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha in these suttas. .... > Tep: I think we agree here in principle, but the detail of how we do it > may be different. ... S: Yes, I think so. There are always points to consider further. Another interesting one you've referred to quite often from the SS commentary. It relates to the 'internal tranquility of awareness' which you see as arising from samatha and you refer separately to 'vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa'. In the development of satipatthana, awareness has to be aware of namas and rupas. At such moments there is inner tranquillity of samatha arising. It is not separate from the development of vipassana. I've found a translation of what you've referred to here in 'Dispeller', 1045, under kaye kayaanupassi: "As regards aataapi ('ardent') and so on.Right Effort should be understood as stated by 'ardour'; the generally useful meditation subject or the means for the protection of the meditation subject, by 'mindfulness and clear comprehension'; or the tranquillity (patiladdha samatha)obtained by contemplation of the body [should be understood as stated] by 'mindfulness', and insight by 'clear comprehension'; and the fruit of development [should be understood as stated] by the 'putting away of covetousness and grief'." S: It's a difficult passage. In the conclusion of the whole section, it stresses that the different objects of satipatthana (i.e the four foundation objects) are 'obtained' at different moments. "For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body; by another feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects." In other words, the meditation object referred to in the context of satipatthana is to whatever nama or rupa appears. At moments of satipatthana, at least 5 path factors arise together, comprising those classified under panna, sila and samadhi. Right Awareness and Right Effort are grouped with Right Concentration under samadhi (concentration), but they have to arise with Right Understanding and Right Thinking (samma sankappa)too. There is the development of adhi (higher)sila, adhi citta and adhi panna at these moments. Adhi citta refers to higher concentration or tranquillity and it can only be developed through satipatthana and perfected by the anagami. It cannot be developed or perfected by samatha development or jhana attainment. Hmm - wasn't intending to open this can of worms:). I'll look forward to your comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 46607 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:54am Subject: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Dan & Tep, While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes for you both: For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: AN10:121 "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech....right action....right livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right deliverance springs up." ***** For Dan, from the commentary to the SammaaDi.t.thi Sutta: "Herein the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One withing the Dispensation is of right view on account of both." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= 46608 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:07pm Subject: Barren Spiritual Stagnation ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Obstructing Obstacles: There are 5 kinds of mental barrenness, that obstruct any mental growth and any spiritual progress. What are they ? 1: Skeptical doubt about the perfect Awakening of the Buddha is the first mental barrenness. 2: Skeptical doubt about the absolute Truth of the Dhamma is the second mental barrenness. 3: Skeptical doubt about the purity of the Noble Sangha is the third mental barrenness. 4: Skeptical doubt about the efficacy of the mental Training is the fourth mental barrenness. 5: Anger towards one's friends & fellows on the Noble Path is the fifth mental barrenness. These 5 kinds of mental barrenness disable all initiative, enthusiasm, energy, effort, exertion, and endurance and thus do they eliminate any effective training and thereby also all the advantageous effects of such mental training! Review the mind regularly recognizing these obstructions and cure them with faith, investigation, and friendliness. The Moderated Speeches by the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya [I 101] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46609 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > S: Yes, advantages and disadvantages in both, I find. If we do come your > way sometime, we won't need any entertaining btw -- we'll just be glad to > meet you:). Ook. I should be good for the occasion. Just keep me apprised of the situation. > .... > > > P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). > >The current picture is a very recent one, > :) > ... > > > > Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I > > didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to > > discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the > > book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some > > initial concerns out of the wahy? > ... > S: We can proceed anytime, anyway you like. Some long-term thread or > series would be good, I think. However, you'd need to keep it going and do > some of the donkey work, as I always have a lot of threads being 'juggled' > in the air at anytime:). Any other initial concerns? Yes. All the problems we have had in the past. I am kind of not at my best lately, and while I could probably apply my intelligence to understanding different types of consciousness at an abstract level, I do not know that I'd be able to take a step back and communicate on the larger picture of things. For example, a few methods I might use to reach insight would be formal mindfulness meditation (of breathing, or the abdomen for sitting meditation, feet and legs for walking meditation, or any other activities or positions duing every day life) or re-begin the four elements meditation which starts off superficially but probably increasing in depth with time. Again I would like to state that if I go the length in sitting meditation, not only am I more sane, stable, and self-aware, but I think I have a better view on reality itself. I distinctly remember things seeming more real during my good meditation days, but now with the quality of my meditation having waned, and slowly beginning to engage in vain talk and lose concentration into sensuality, my view of it is less so. Eventually I may be trying to accumulate virtue / paramis as well. Just like you would do a loving-kindness meditation. I have to get myself in a state where I can be sort of a container for these virtues too, then, it may work. Of course, learning about citta and cetasika, other nama and rupa will still be part of my practise. Please let me know how you feel about my overall approach before we begin anything. > > I want to just pick up on one 'concern' you mentioned in another letter. > You said, with regard to your r'ship with your father: > > A:"It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to > the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my > parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life > is short for all of us)." > > S: This is very honest. We all have lots of fear and it's OK and normal. > Slowly rectify the r'ship, a little more each day and it'll work out well, > I'm sure. Your parents may never understand your interest in the Dhamma, > but that doesn't matter at all -- one can learn to respect the other's > path and they will respect yours when you live easily, skilfully and > naturally with that path. Yah I have to stay awake and aware to be decent to them, harmless, good, and to speak with non-aversion. I want for their welfare so much, yes I still don't act for its benefit correspondingly. I see it in other people, too, that they should be treated well by both themselves and others in life. Now if only I could turn this around into harmlessness and polite speech. Establishing my parents in morality is a task that I want to do but it is difficult and I myself am more crooked than I have been in times past, so first things first. > You also mentioned: > > A: "If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of > akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of > attachment." > > S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and other more > common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we > think attachment arises in. Fair enough, but don't you think there are /some/ circumstances where this is OK? Eg the monkhood are to avoid being in close proximity to the opposite sex in certain situations, and certainly the Buddha forbid his monks to only enter town for alms at times that the surroundings would be conducive to increasing sensual desire or frivolous talk. > That would be a kind of wrong view in itself > to think it's possible. At such moments there will be a strong clinging to > 'me' without attachment, not realising that it's arisen already. Live your > ordinary life, doing whatever you please and see that awareness can arise > and be aware of any conditioned dhamma, Al. If we say there is not as much > awareness as before and so on, again it shows the strong clinging to > having more awareness, more good, more good results and so on. Who for? > ME!! Well I have many little books from BPS in Sri Lanka and some of them prescribe certain modes of behavior to bring one in line with the Noble Eightfold Path. The one I can point you to most especially is Renunciation by T. Prince < http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/prince/ >. > > OK, end of my 'initial concerns':)). > I still wonder how talking on this group will affect my course, that is, my wanting to practise on the streets. Now that I am free to stay out later than 7:30pm, (its a medium length story.), I can practise outside at nights when I am ready, whether it's Sayadaw U Pandita's method, or the four foundations of mindfulness with knowledge of nama and rupa, including mental factors. Just have to get ready first. > Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? Well last time weren't we doing Abhidhamma in daily life using CMA heavily as a reference manual? I do know there is a lot of material in the later chapters of CMA that would be difficult for one to understand without consulting others. Perhaps we should start with that then. > > Ch1 either way: The distinction between namas and rupas. Any questions, > comments or confusion? When this is clear, the rest is all downhill imho. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Thanks, Sarah. Looking forward to discussing the dhamma with you for productive results. Regards, Andrew Levin 46610 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > > I'm very glad to see you posting again. I apologise for the delay in > responding to your earlier message addressed to me and others.> ....(snip)... > I'll pause here and you can help me to understand deeper what your concern > is if I've missed the boat. I haven't read your recent posts yet as I'm a > little behind, but just seeing your name reminded me to get back to you on > this one. I'd like to follow it through, but slowly. > ... Hallo Sarah, and all Yes, I'm posting again. But very carefully: not trying to convince anybody, not the lust of making provocation; just to make myself clear to myself: what I believe and what I don't belief (speaking conventionally on this moment) Thanks for your answer and no apologises for delay, because: what is time? Time is just expectations, time is what happens when nothing else happens. I had to be careful for another reason too, language makes very quick an objective impression, has easily a (implicit) ontological structure. When one for example states "there are just 5 khandhas", the word 'ARE' gives big philosophical problems (to me): where in the universe to they be? I can EXPERIENCE myself as "just 5 khandhas" (and I try to do) but that is something else than that that khandhas 'BE'. J:> the second vision [that I see a person as not just five khandhas but as a suffering being] denies the truth of anatta and anicca. S: Again, I don't believe this is correct. When there is compassion, for example, for a 'suffering being' there doesn't need to be any idea of a being actually existing or of permanence. Wrong views arise at different moments from the cittas accompanied by compassion and so on. I used to find this a difficult point too, so I understand. Let me know if you'd like more explanation. Joop (now): Explanation is not the good term (I have no need to be convinced, I refuse to see somebody else an an 'IT'). I like help in my formulating my till now vague ideas about the Middle Way (in the philosophical meaning). But you are already giving that help. J: - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not > ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I > am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are > not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, > this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that direction? S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these dhammas are 'universal truths'. Joop (now): I'm glad you formulate this so clear because now I can say that I don't agree with it. I know I (still) cling to an idea of MY self. But on the same moment I'm agnostic about the question if 'universal truths' do exist. But I have to reflect a longer time about this, especially how the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12:15) combined with 'A Cosmologist' (SN 12:48) had to be applied to the statement 'these dhammas are universal truths' My 'concern' ? That the social dimension of Abhidhamma - on the paramatthic level - is poorly developed. And that the way the soteriological truth of the anatta-doctrine has been made a ontological one is the reason for that stagnation. The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas (I realize that that's hard to proof) I define this 'social citta' as "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING". Of course you will say: we don't need this citta, that's no problem. Do I want to improve the Abhidhamma? No, I'm modest, I'm just formulating my subjective buddhist truth. "'A monk was sick with dysentery', records a passage in the Pali Canon, 'and lay fouled in his own urine and excrement.' Budha came to his lodging and asked why no one was taking care of him. 'The other monks don't care for me', he replied, 'because I do nothing for them.' Buddha and his attendent ananda washed the monk, lifted him up, and laid him on a bed. … Through intimately identifying himself with the sick monk, Buddha affirms the link between the questions that prompted his quest and thye awakening in which it culminated. Without birth, sickness, ageing, and death, there would be either awakening (bodhi) nor an awakened one (buddha). Awakening is only intelligible as the response to the diabolic contingency of the human condition…." Stephen Batchelor - Living with the devil, p135/136. Note that the Buddha did not say (and in my opinion even did not think) about the sick monk that he was just five khandhas; like nowhere in the Tipitaka the expression can be found (I guess): "This is not HIS, this HE is not, this is not HIS self." If you react again (whenever in the future) please connect this message of me with that about The Middle Ways (pural) in general in #46487 en 46588 (the difference is one typo). And that you react on my differentiation between soteriological and the ontological interpretation of the Teachings of the Buddha. Metta Joop 46611 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:47am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Sarah, Very quickly...with major snipping action. Understanding is gradually developed to a greater and greater depth. A conceptual framework that helps the digging go deeper helps. > frequently:). Also, no one believes that the book terminology is anything > other than a convenient framework to discuss dhammas together with. Are you sure? It often seems like it's viewed as a vehicle to condition satipatthana: "Here's how to develop understanding. First, there must be intellectual understanding. To develop intellectual understanding, read and speculate about what you read. Then, and only then, will any sort of understanding at all be developed." Just another version of desire to have a "do this, do that" instruction book for development. The big "I" creeping in again. > I'm curious, Dan. I've given you various references before which I don't > think you've responded to. Do you think they are wrong? For example, do > you disagree with the following from 'Dispeller' which I've given in more > detail before? > > "For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province > of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened One only." Doesn't "making known the characteristic" refer to development of understanding of the characteristic to a sufficient depth for full enlightenment? That's my reading, and I agree. But how deep is the current understanding of anatta? And aren't there other conceptual frameworks that can also help one to develop an understanding of anatta to that depth and beyond? I think the answer is 'yes' until the depth is close to enlightenment. Metta, Dan 46612 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Thanks! Well Dan, reflection as I understand , is something I have and sort of look in a new perspective and insight is like I know that I know but then I uncover it. e.g Reflection is in the past I have been angry and have justified the cause of my anger , but know I reflect that upon thought that will I behave the same way now after wisdom? e.g Insight is I know that everything is impermanent or anicca but I am not able to grasp it and then one fine day it dawns upon me that yes! everything is anicca. Correct me if I am wrong metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? <...> 46613 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discipline vvk63 Hi! I am Venky I found your experience Andrew very intensive. Hve you tried meditation or Vipasanna? Metta Venky lone_renunciant wrote: <...> >Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). <....> 46614 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:10am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] foamflowers Dear DSGers, During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending lectures, discussing issues between themselves and or having a talk with a teacher. But during that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed in a different way? I also read books have ruinded our memory (Okay I read to much) we no longer have to really understand something we just get a book and it already knows and remembers for use. I use my phone and computer to help me remember dates and times. But to understand something through theory has never been my strong point. I have to do it hands on to really know and understand. That's just me though I have seen many types of learning patterns. <==book worm With Metta, Lisa 46615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - I enjoy a dhamma discussion with you as usual. S: As we've seen in other contexts, the deepest meaning of 'dwelling alone' and viveka refer to mental seclusion rather than bodily seclusion. So I wouldn't just assume it from the words like 'eka'-one alone. We all have to learn to live alone, regardless of our lifestyles. T: There is a post from Lisa that hits this issue with a sledge hammer. I am going to write a reply to her soon. This issue is not a serious one to me as I will explain to Lisa. --------------------------------- S: There is no monk to ever become 'atapi sampajanno satima'. These are transient mental states only, but maybe I misunderstand you. T: The five aggregates, all namas and rupas, are transient; whatever seems to exist right now ("the monk") is impermanent. ------------------------- S: Without samma-ditthi or panna, samma-samadhi cannot develop. They support each other, along with the other path factors such as samma-sati, samma-vayama and samma-sankappa. Remember the suttas about right understanding being the forerunner like the dawn? Also the stress on samma-ditthi in your selected sutta of course. T: Without samma-ditthi there is no guidance, no direction. Samma- ditthi and the other 6 path factors support samma-samadhi, according to several major suttas. But, beyond such a basic fact there is one more thing we must know. In MN 117 samma-samadhi supports samma-nana and, in turn, samma-vimutti. No suttas state that samma- nana is conditioned by samma-ditthi alone. Without samma-samadhi (described as the four rupa-jhanas in DN 22, for example) there is no samma-nana. I hope you are not confusing samma-ditthi with samma- nana, are you? -------------------------- S: Another interesting one you've referred to quite often from the SS commentary. It relates to the 'internal tranquility of awareness' which you see as arising from samatha and you refer separately to 'vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa'. In the development of satipatthana, awareness has to be aware of namas and rupas. At such moments there is inner tranquillity of samatha arising. It is not separate from the development of vipassana. T: Internal tranquillity of awareness of nama and rupa (not kasinas) is what I had in mind. No, I was not confused. Tranquillity as a factor of bojjhanga is supported by satipatthana. Tranquillity leads concentration. Sati & sampajanna coresponds to samatha & vipassana (see Comy in DN 22) that are yoked together, and are fully developed, when the eight path factors arise to support samma-nana [see MN 117 and MN 149]. S: In the conclusion of the whole section, it stresses that the different objects of satipatthana (i.e the four foundation objects) are 'obtained' at different moments. "For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body; by another feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects." T: To me the above passage means that only one object can be the present-moment object of samatha-vipassana meditation. S: In other words, the meditation object referred to in the context of satipatthana is to whatever nama or rupa appears. T: Yes. S: At moments of satipatthana, at least 5 path factors arise together, comprising those classified under panna, sila and samadhi. T: What do mean by 'at moments of satipatthana' ? What are the conditions that support those 'moments'? What is your sutta support for such statement? S: Right Awareness and Right Effort are grouped with Right Concentration under samadhi (concentration), but they have to arise with Right Understanding and Right Thinking (samma sankappa)too. T: MN 117 is the best source that describes the arisings of all path factors both sequentially and as a subset of three factors that are "revolving" together. Karuna, Tep P.S. the can of worms needs to be opened so that all bad worms will go away. If not, then we'll have to open the can again. ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > 46616 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - Thank you so much for drawing my attention to Bkikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 10, 121. S: > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > AN10:121 > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of > right intention, right speech....right action....right > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > deliverance springs up." > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. You should consult MN 117 too. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan & Tep, > > While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just > now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes > for you both: > 46617 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:20am Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 "The worldling", Sarah, is which one? The one who experiences a genuine kusala moment? Where is the view of self then? It does not then arise; it is not 'held'. Later, a wrong view of self again arises in the worldling, whether that worldling is "outside the dispensation" or "within the dispensation." A moment of satipatthana in one outside the dispensation may be reflected on thus: "'I' have no control over the arising of states or their characteristics." Later, a conceptual framework may be built that goes something like this: "A man's will is like a beast standing between two riders. If God rides, it wills and goes where God wills...If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan wills. Nor may it choose to which rider it will run, or which it will seek; but the riders themselves fight to decide who shall have and hold it." (Luther's statement of Augustine's conceptualization in "Bondage of the Will"). Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan & Tep, > > While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just > now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes > for you both: > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > AN10:121 > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of > right intention, right speech....right action....right > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > deliverance springs up." > > ***** > For Dan, from the commentary to the SammaaDi.t.thi Sutta: > > "Herein the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and > one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who > believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as > one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the > truths, because he holds to the view of self. One withing the Dispensation > is of right view on account of both." 46618 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, V V Kulkarni wrote: > Hi! > I am Venky > > I found your experience Andrew very intensive. Hve you tried meditation or Vipasanna? Hello, Venky. To answer your question, yes, I practise vipassana meditation. If you have any further questions, let me know. Regards, A.L. 46619 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand what you were saying. And the distinction you make between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I look at them too. I do think that many people would put "insight" into the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from reasoning). Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much sitting on a cushion with no development. Metta, Dan > Well Dan, reflection as I understand , is something I have and sort of look in a new perspective and insight is like I know that I know but then I uncover it. > > e.g Reflection is in the past I have been angry and have justified the cause of my anger , but know I reflect that upon thought that will I behave the same way now after wisdom? > > e.g Insight is I know that everything is impermanent or anicca but I am not able to grasp it and then one fine day it dawns upon me that yes! everything is anicca. > > Correct me if I am wrong > > metta > > Venky > > > > "Dan D." wrote: > Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. > > You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you > see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? > > <...> 46620 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding > of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly > different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new > heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a > clearer picture of what I was talking about. > > ------------------------------------------------ > J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know > it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first > precept. > ----------------------------------------------- > > That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen > so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the > farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, > to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, > move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, > eventually, not even have my own kitchen. > > There is the obvious objection, "Who is going to do the dirty work? > Someone has to grow the crops and remove vermin from the restaurants > etc." The equally obvious answer has been, "There is no shortage of > people who are only too willing to do those jobs." > > I'm not sure that answer is entirely satisfactory. It hints at a them- > and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators > (for example) can't be as good as other people. But I think the > suttas tell us about hunters, soldiers and even an executioner who > attained the final goal. Are we to assume that they followed those > careers only before hearing the Dhamma? Even so, they must have had > extraordinary accumulations of sila and panna at the time. > > In at least one of those cases (quoted in Sarah's musings thread) the > hunters were the husband and sons of a sotapanna. Surely they > would have heard the Dhamma from her. If so, that would suggest they > were good Buddhists even while carrying on their 'wrong' livelihoods. > (I realise, BTW, they couldn't continue in wrong livelihood after > Stream-entry.) Hi Ken H (and all) Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in attachment, for what can one man do for another?" You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. What do you think? Best wishes Andrew T 46621 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? philofillet Hi Dan, Venky and all > I do think that many people would put "insight" into > the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) > and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from > reasoning). I don't have time to post about this right now - or anything to add for that matter - but I just want to note that I'd put myself in with the people above - so I appreciate having a chance to reflect on it! Hopefully will remember to come back on it later. (Oops....I shouldn't say "hopefully." Oops I shouldn't say "shouldn't"...I should aaargghh. haha. Metta, Phil 46622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Lisa - I had no idea that by quoting just one paragraph from your selected sutta [II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi] in order to show my appreciation of your answer to my 'Quiz', I would be questioned back a whole lot like this! Lisa: the Forest Dwellers were not part of the monastic community they come in from the wild places to listen to the Teachings? They are renunciates? Could this also apply to a city dweller like me who isn't a Nun but listens to Buddha's teachings and reads the doctrine? Do you have to go to the forest to be a renunciate? Can't one practice renunciation anywhere because where ever you are? you cannot avoid what's going on in the head and body the body and mind are always there whether in the forest or in the city with company or without company. Can't the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytime or do you have to be physically secluded to do this? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? etc. Tep: I only know why I posted that paragraph, Lisa. It is interesting to me because the Buddha also talked about seclusion in several other suttas. In your sutta the Buddha told Udayi that he should revere and honor those disciples for their seclusion -- i.e. not abiding "surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths". It tells us that there are two types of bhikkhus : those who sought seclusion and those who did not. Maybe you can find some answers to your own questions from the following three suttas. 1. Seclusion and the Holy-life (Note: in another translation 'holy life' is replaced by 'moral life'.) "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? ... ... ... "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [the Teacher or the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... .... [AN VIII.2 Pañña Sutta] 2. Duties of a Recluse MN39, Mahaassapurasutta.m http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/039-mahaassapura-sutta-e1.htm 3. Patimokkha Sila, Calm, Jhana, Insight and Empty Dwelling Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 Nibbedhika (Pariyeya) Sutta Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr12no3/majjhima75-101.html > > Tep: > Hi, Lisa - > > I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly > about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". > > "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising > it,you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due > honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, > leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. > They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every > fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand > abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and > female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other > faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and > receive the due honour for it." > 46623 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:54pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for continuing our unfinished discussion -- hopefully, it is converging to a single-point conclusion. :->)) In the last message we were talking about special activities in the Satipatthana Sutta versus the "non-directed" contemplation. >T: The choice of dhatus as the object of >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > Jon: Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture is called for. As regards whether the Buddha is suggesting that dhatus can or should be *chosen*, I think we should not rule out the possibility of reflection occurring at times other than times we might designate as 'dhatu reflection' time. T: It does not fit any good purpose to "designate" a special time for dhatus reflection, Jon. Since the Great Teacher did not specify a "particular bodily action or posture" for the dhatus meditation, then it is up to us. -------------------------- Jon: But I do not see that as meaning that mundane samatha must be developed first (and separately) in order for the development of insight to begin. My understanding is that as insight is developed and is accumulated, so is the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment. T: When there is sati, there is also sampajanna. There is no sampajanna if there is no sati. When I contemplate on the arising and passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". Jon: ...the primary conditions for the arising of mindfulness (apart from our past accumulations of mindfulness) are hearing the teachings explained in a way that is suitable for us, reflecting on what has been learnt and understood, and appreciating the importance of the development of insight as the only way of escape from samsara (i.e., having a sense of urgency). T: Do you believe that the mindfulness that is conditioned by such "hearing the teachings", "reflecting.." and "appreciating..." is strong enough to be called samma-sati that can further condition "the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment"? [All the quoted words are yours.] >T: What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, > etc." case? Jon: ... the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa while walking, this would be something that is described in the section on the modes of deportment. T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and > >exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or > >contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of > >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > > > > > > Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental > activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are > also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' > section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture > is called for. ]. 46624 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thank you (and Nina) for settling the question, "Do cetasikas, as well as cittas, experience an object?" ------------------------ S: > Yes. Atthasalini: "..the term `mind' (naama) is applied to mental properties, because `names' once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. `Matter' is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." ------------------------------------ When the Atthasalini analyses terms by giving a long list of explanations, it is often tempting to ask, "Well, which is it?" :-) I hope that doesn't sound too disrespectful. Obviously the fault is with me, not with the texts, but (for example) the explanation, "because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves," seems to add nothing. Wouldn't that apply equally to rupas? I am also mystified by, "`Matter' is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." But, again, that is due to my ignorance, not to any fault in the texts. ----------------------- S: > Back to Htoo's comment and the role of panna as forerunner in various suttas, let me add this quote from the Atthasalini too as clearly you've had some discussion on this point and I'd like to make it very clear. ----------------------- We didn't have much discussion on that, but I can see now that there was a lot we could have discussed. I can almost, but not quite, see the relevance in knowing which dhamma - citta or panna - is the forerunner and when. I can see that panna must run ahead of viriya and samadhi etc., but I'm not so sure about 'ahead of citta.' I suppose it will be more meaningful when, eventually, I study the Paccaya. The term 'transcendental phenomena' (lokuttara.m dhamma.m) is a new one to me. In the quote, it seems broad enough to include cittas and cetasikas of the *mundane* fivefold path. With that reading, panna would be the forerunner in moments of satipatthana, which, I think you agree, is the case. Ken H > Atthasalini, Analysis of Terms: > > "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, `the king has > arrived,' it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, > but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be > understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena > (pa.n.naasakusaladhammehi). But it may be said that consciousness has > arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba"ngama.m). For in worldly > phenomena consciousness (lokiya dhamma.m) is the chief, consciousness is > the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. > > In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, understanding > is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the > forerunner." > > 46625 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / Paramattha dhamma buddhistmedi... Venerable Dhammanando - Thank you for going one step further to respond to my concern about the "ultimate realities" issue that is hidden behind 'saccato thetato'. Venerable Dhammanando: saccato thetato, leading to .....propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to .....sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. Tep: In the simplest possible way may I understand "sabhaava- possessing existents" as "beings" ? [Pali Text Society: Sabhava [sa+bhava] 1. state (of mind), nature, condition 2. character, disposition, behaviour 3. truth, reality, sincerity.] VD: ... according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. Tep: Do "things possessed of sabhaava" mean "beings with citta"? I don't understand why the commentaries assign the label 'paramattha dhammas' to them. VD: And so the most traditional of commentary-following Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Tep: What about most sutta-following, practical-minded Buddhist monks? What do they think of the paramattha dhammas in terms of practicality, or usefulness, for penetrating the Four Noble Truths? With appreciation and respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Thep, > > > I can see that it has nothing to do with > > "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). > > For modern academic buddhologists saccato thetato marks the > first stage in a doctrinal evolution that eventually culminates in > the notion of paramattha dhammas: > > saccato thetato, leading to ..... > propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to ..... > sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. > > They then voice various opinions on how much the later > conception was/was not implied by the earlier one. > > For commentary-following Theravaadins, on the other hand, > the difference is viewed as only one of phrasing, not > meaning. The only things that are real are things that exist > saccato thetato, and according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta > we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato > thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things > the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. > > And so the most traditional of commentary-following > Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic > scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* > connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and > the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Their > disagreement only concerns the nature of this connection. > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando 46626 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Oops, now that you mention it, I remember that you have already explained 'pajaanaati' in great detail. :-) Thanks for going over it again. --------------------------- S: I pointed out that the term, `pajaanaati' (which he was referring to) was given in the Vibhanga as a synonym for panna. Remember the analogies of the way that the child, the old woman and the money-changer view the coins for the ways in which sanna, citta and panna experience dhammas? Perhaps we can say `knows clearly'. ------------------------------ Does that prove, once and for all, that the Satipatthana Sutta is referring to dhammas, and not to concepts, when it says, "When he is walking, he knows, clearly, he is walking?" In other words, does pajaanaati always refer exclusively to dhammas, and does pajaanaa always refer exclusively to concepts? Or is it not so simple? ------------------------------------------------- S: > As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . ---------------------------------------------------- Yes, that is the understanding many of us have had for a long time. (Many others have understood the opposite.) But, to repeat my question, does the addition of "ati" in the word, pajaanaati settle the issue? Does 'pajaanaati' tell us that the particular (and not the general) sense of "going" is intended, or is it the other way around? In other words, "or does the right interpretation of "going" tell us that pajaanaati is referring to characteristics and not to ideas about walking?" Ken H 46627 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; still on about those ### termites! kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I was saying, in my dubious wisdom: ------------------ > > . . . if a house has termites its owner should have it > > fumigated - because that's what householders do. ......................... S: > I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. ------------------ Point taken. Normally I would be happy to leave it at that - it is, after all, a description of conditioned reality. But, for the sake of argument, let's consider the case where the householder, wishing to keep the precepts, leaves the termites where they are (even though they will completely destroy his house). I think he is like a meditator who, unwilling to know the dhammas that are arising now, tries to make other, more desirable, dhammas arise. A monk has no house. He wouldn't deliberately hurt a termite, and he wouldn't run the risk of accidentally hurting one - except while performing the basic necessities of a monk's life. But a householder is not a monk. He can't have his cake and eat it too: he has to look after his house wherever reasonably possible. -------------------------- S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't this just speculation about various situations, rather than any understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. --------------------------- Thanks for that sound advice, but I will continue. :-) Isn't my example of the householder like the example of the bombardier you discussed with KS? He was ordered to press the bomb-release button. I think my householder is in the same position. And isn't it theoretically possible to spray poisonous chemicals and lay poisonous baits, hoping that, miraculously, no termites will be hurt? Both he and the bombardier will have done what had to be done. The rest will be up to kamma and vipaka. Ken H 46628 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Supreme Stream of Essence ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Kinds of Sublime Quintessence: The cream of Teachings: The 4 Noble Truths & the 37 producers of Enlightenment. The cream of Recipients: The disciples capable of understanding & practicing these. The cream of Holy Lives: That lived while developing the Noble 8-fold Path. Source: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga by Sariputta... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46629 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 0:19am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 222 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Buddha, when he was still a bodhisatta, considered the satisfaction in life, the misery and also the escape therefrom. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Threes, Chapter XI, §101, Before): * "Before my enlightenment, monks, when I was yet but a Bodhisat, this occurred to me: What, I wonder, is the satisfaction in the world, what is the misery in the world, what is the escape therefrom? Then, monks, this occurred to me: That condition in the world owing to which pleasure arises, owing to which arises happiness,— that is the satisfaction in the world. That impermanence, that suffering, that changeability in the world,— that is the misery in the world. That restraint, that riddance of desire and passion in the world,— that is the escape therefrom…" * The “escape” can be realized through the development of insight. Right understanding of realities eventually leads to freedom from all akusala, to the end of all sorrow. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46630 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; still on about those ### termites! sarahprocter... Hi KenH, --- kenhowardau wrote: > S: > I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders > would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. > ------------------ S: Just to elaborate a little more – a householder may, for example, go to some extra trouble like in Howard’s example before, to look at different options. I don’t intend to be the one reporting any more on stagnant ponds and mosquitoes to my management, for example, but will be sure to cover up more when I go down to Tai Chi if we continue in the same area when the problem recurs as it probably will. ..... > Point taken. Normally I would be happy to leave it at that - it is, > after all, a description of conditioned reality. But, for the sake > of argument, let's consider the case where the householder, wishing > to keep the precepts, leaves the termites where they are (even though > they will completely destroy his house). I think he is like a > meditator who, unwilling to know the dhammas that are arising now, > tries to make other, more desirable, dhammas arise. .... S:-/ Maybe a little unfair on the householder and the meditator?? All we can say is that how the householder will act will depend on his/her accumulations at the time when the pereceived problem arises. This may or may not be in accordance with intentions and speculations now. ..... > A monk has no house. He wouldn't deliberately hurt a termite, and he > wouldn't run the risk of accidentally hurting one - except while > performing the basic necessities of a monk's life. But a householder > is not a monk. He can't have his cake and eat it too: he has to look > after his house wherever reasonably possible. .... S: Even monks have duties to sweep and keep the temple accommodation clean, rules about not scattering rice grains and so on (if I recall correctly) presumably not to attract vermin. And yes, he will not deliberately hurt a termite. I'm sure all the same issues arise in the taking care of the temple which may be a large forest temple. In one flat we had, I seem to recall there were some termites in the wood under the bedroom window. We had it all removed and replaced (rather than treated) with a marble cover which like Howard’s example, was a rather expensive work-around, but seemed the simplest solution at the time. .... > S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't > this just speculation about various situations, rather than any > understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is > done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better > to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. > --------------------------- > > Thanks for that sound advice, but I will continue. :-) Isn't my > example of the householder like the example of the bombardier you > discussed with KS? ... S: Actually I didn’t discuss that example. I just heard it and quoted from the India 01 recordings. (I wasn’t on the trip). I did pass on some of Ken O’s questions about livelihood etc recently and used both sets of examples in the Musings. I can't say I find any of these issues to be problems as such -- there can be awareness anytime, whatever action one takes. The rest is just a set of concepts. .... >He was ordered to press the bomb-release button. I > think my householder is in the same position. And isn't it > theoretically possible to spray poisonous chemicals and lay poisonous > baits, hoping that, miraculously, no termites will be hurt? Both he > and the bombardier will have done what had to be done. The rest will > be up to kamma and vipaka. .... S: Yes, it all just depends on the cittas....it’ll be different for each of us when we spray the chemicals and different from moment to moment. As you say, it’ll depend on the kamma and vipaka of the termites at the time what the result will be. No rule or shoulds either way, as I see it!! How are we doing here? What do Steve, Chris and AndrewT think too? Any disagreements? Metta, Sarah ======= 46631 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Joop, Sarah and everyone, > > I had to be careful for another reason too, language makes very quick > an objective impression, has easily a (implicit) ontological > structure. > When one for example states "there are just 5 khandhas", the > word 'ARE' gives big philosophical problems (to me): where in the > universe to they be? I can EXPERIENCE myself as "just 5 khandhas" > (and I try to do) but that is something else than that that > khandhas 'BE'. > I couldn't agree more with Joop about language easily giving objective impressions. The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they understand it to mean. For me, khandas are categories. Categories are analytical tools, the building blocks of thought. Only to the extent that they are thought, do they exist. Categories are not experienced. Experience is always specific, never general. Categories are always general, never specific. There is no experience that properly is a member of any category. Categories are arbitrary. Categories are applied after experience. Categorisation is dependent on memory. It is clear to me that the Buddhism of the early Suttas is aimed at cessation, which includes a cessation of thinking. This requires a cessation of all categorising activity. It is also clear to me that later Buddhism does the exact opposite, namely it proliferates categorisation and thinking. When you stop thinking, it doesn't matter if there was a you in there who ceased thinking. With the cessation of thinking, there is no you who is not thinking. Not thinking is not an act. Thinking is. Pretty straightforward really, what do you reckon? Cheers Herman 46632 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi Evan, You make some good points and I follow any of your posts with interest. --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I would like to point out that the suttas do make it clear that a > particular lifestyle is better for developing satipatthana. .... S: Let me ask you (and anyone else) a question. When there is awareness of attachment, for example, is there any idea of 'forest' or 'bhikkhu' or 'city householder'? The same question applies to the understanding of other realities. ... >In many > suttas, when a bhikkhu attains nibbana, the following stock phrase is > used: > > "He in no long time entered and remained in the supreme goal of the holy > life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness." > > So they are right to go forth from home life into homelessness. ... S: Yes, it is certainly like 'heaven' compared to 'earth' and we should pay our respects to those who follow this course. Should everyone 'go forth' if they can and furthermore, live in solitude in a forest if they can? No, I don't think so. It was certainly not recommended for everyone by any means. For example, we read in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta (Bodhi transl): "Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline...he resorts to a secluded dwelling." The commentary elaborates: "What does the Buddha show by this? He shows the achievement of the requisites for living in the forest. For one who lacks these four requisites* does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as animals or forest wanderers. The deities residing in the forest would think, 'What is the use of living in the forest for such an evil bhikkhu?' They would make frightful sounds, strike him on the head with their hands, and make him flee. A bad reputation would also spread about concerning him: 'Such and such a bhikkhu, having entered the forest, did this and that evil deed.' But one who has achieved these four requisites succeeds in his forest life...." *4 requisites: Moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment. .... S: Is there restraint over what is seen and heard now? Is there sati and panna of dhammas arising now? Is there contentment with whatever dhamma is conditioned now? If not, why should they suddently arise in the forest? ..... > Also, it is said of the home life that it is "dusty" as is shown below - > in this case the Buddha's own thoughts while he was still a Boddhisatta > (MN36). > > "The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the > open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is > totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell." > > This stock phrase is also used to refer to a "householder or a > householder's son" as is MN38. ... S: Yes, there's no denying the dusty life of the householder. The 'holy life' refers to 'the entire dispensation comprised in the threefold training (moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom)'. 'It is perfectly purified because it is to be accomplished up to the last moment of consciousness, making it untainted by the taint of defilements even for a single day.'. No, it's not easy 'living in a home' and not easy for those who go forth now towards the end of the Buddha sasana. .... > As I see it, the Buddha makes it clear that the homeless life makes it > easier to lead the holy life. ... S: I'd like to ask again, easier for whom? For everyone or just for those who have the accumulations to do so? Metta, Sarah ====== 46633 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I distinctly remember things seeming > more real during my good meditation days, but now with the quality of > my meditation having waned, and slowly beginning to engage in vain > talk and lose concentration into sensuality, my view of it is less so. ... S: I think the problem is the expectations again. When there are fewer expectations, it's easier to live happily with whatever is conditioned now. After all, we have no choice but to live with our presently arising accumulations or tendencies. Wishing they were another way at this moment or hankering after past 'good' days just leads to discouragement and unhappiness. You've mentioned a couple of times that your 'problems' only started after you became interested in Buddhism and started your meditation practice. I would suggest that when there's an idea that we can make a particular effort arise and bring about certain results, there's bound to be disappointment and difficulty when this doesn't happen. Effort and bhavana are anatta too. Pls ignore this comment if it's out of line. .... > Please let me know how you feel about my overall approach before we > begin anything. ... S: I see no problem with your approach -- whether you're reading, meditating or meeting your friend and having frivous talk at Dunkin' Donuts. The accumulations are conditioned at all these times and can never be changed by wishing or forcing. When there's understanding of dhammas, it is 'detached' from what is its object, whether that be 'good' or 'bad'. Wishing it another way is just more lobha. ... > Yah I have to stay awake and aware to be decent to them, harmless, > good, and to speak with non-aversion. I want for their welfare so > much, yes I still don't act for its benefit correspondingly. I see it > in other people, too, that they should be treated well by both > themselves and others in life. Now if only I could turn this around > into harmlessness and polite speech. Establishing my parents in > morality is a task that I want to do but it is difficult and I myself > am more crooked than I have been in times past, so first things first. ... S: Yes, I think first things are to develop more understanding and to see wrong views more and more for what they are. Don't be too tough on yourself -- few of us speak politely all the time. It's great that you are so concerned for your parents' welfare however and wish them very well. .... > > S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and > other more > > common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we > > think attachment arises in. > > Fair enough, but don't you think there are /some/ circumstances where > this is OK? Eg the monkhood are to avoid being in close proximity to > the opposite sex in certain situations, and certainly the Buddha > forbid his monks to only enter town for alms at times that the > surroundings would be conducive to increasing sensual desire or > frivolous talk. ... S: The monks follow particular rules for the preservation of the Sangha and the teachings. We cannot avoid atttachment just by avoiding certain situations. What about now? ... > I still wonder how talking on this group will affect my course, that > is, my wanting to practise on the streets. Now that I am free to stay > out later than 7:30pm, (its a medium length story.), I can practise > outside at nights when I am ready, whether it's Sayadaw U Pandita's > method, or the four foundations of mindfulness with knowledge of nama > and rupa, including mental factors. Just have to get ready first. ... S: It sounds like you've passed a test with your 'keepers'. Well done! Hope things continue to improve. ... > > > Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? > > Well last time weren't we doing Abhidhamma in daily life using CMA > heavily as a reference manual? I do know there is a lot of material > in the later chapters of CMA that would be difficult for one to > understand without consulting others. Perhaps we should start with > that then. ... S: Anything you like. We could start from the back for a change if you like? I like the way you relate your study of dhammas to your daily activities and outings. yes, there is only nama and rupa whether you're at Dunkin' Donuts, out in the evening or at home with your parents. There can never be kusala all the time -- better to develop good understanding of any dhamma arising, rather than trying to create or 'force' special experiences which will lead to more and more difficulty as I see it. Sorry if I sound a bit 'over the top' or 'preachy' when I write, Al. I find our discussions useful and enjoy your reflections a lot. I also care a lot about your general well-being. Metta, Sarah ====== 46634 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is how you start over. First, you erase the completely irrelevant > subject heading and put a more appropriate one in its place. Then, ask a > question: ... S: Hmm....but did you read my other comments:-/? .... > > When ignorance experiences an object, it gets it wrong somehow. Isn't > that mistake what is the object of desire? ... S: Wrong view gets it wrong. Ignorance just doesn't know. Desire just desires. When wrong view arises, desire is there as well, desiring the same object which is experienced wrongly and ignorance is there not knowing that such 'perversion' is taking place. .... > > Do you desire paramattha dhammas, dhammas that are impermanent, painful, > and empty? Examples? ... S: Only desire desires, not you or me. Desire can desire anything -- concepts or realities (except lokuttara dhammas). Taste is a paramattha dhamma. Isn't there desire for certain tastes when we eat? ... > When you knowingly experience a paramattha dhamma, do you do so with > desire or aversion? ... S: If there is knowledge when paramattha dhammas are experienced, there is no desire or aversion at that moment. Afterwards, there may be desire or aversion, but then it's to the concept of that dhamma. That's my best effort in haste. Please feel free to disagree or clarify. Metta, Sarah ======== 46635 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > You didn't speak too much about the temple itself. If there was an > arahant monk leading that Sri Lankan forest temple, do you think you > still would have left? ... S: Oooh....no idea:-/... ... >Granted, one can follow the Buddha's teachings > as a householder, but it is much more difficult (as the Buddha taught > and as you experienced upon your return home). It is a very nice > sutta though and it reminds people that living like a monk is no > guarantee for happiness. Happiness comes from defeating Mara who is > with us all the time- in the forest temple and in family home. ... S: I agree with your comments. Well expressed. In my case, I preferred to face difficulties, confident about the path of satipatthana, than to follow what I saw as the wrong path (for me) in a more tranquil setting. ....> > It was nice for you to share the sutta you believe best meets Tep's > requirements: <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to > undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough > for Stream-entry">. I have also picked a sutta, "The Great Lion's > Roar" DN8, which I will post about later as I am busy packing (getting > ready to move and travel). Take care. ... S: Good choice and I'll look forward to your post very much. Meanwhile, very best wishes for your move and trip back to the States. I'm sure you're ready for a good break from Egypt and school-life. Metta, Sarah ============ 46636 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Howard, Tep & all, Ven D: >attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane(MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) <..> ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..."< .... S: Tep asked about the use of paramattha in this context. I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think). Let me quote from the very first section of the text (Kathavatthu) in the meantime as it addresses the question of whether 'the person' is known 'in the sense of a real and ultimate Fact'(puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati). The following sections use these terms as well. ***** Kathaavatthu transl as 'Points of Controversy' by Shwe Zan Aung & Mrs Rhys Davids (PTS) .... The First Refutation, 1) The fivefold Affirmative Presentation. "Theravadin - Is 'the person' known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact? (puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati) Puggalavadin - Yes Th - Is the person known 'in the same way' as a real and ultimate fact is known? (Yo saccika.t.tho paramattho, tato so puggalo upalabbhati) P- Nay, that cannot truly be said. Th - Acknowledge your refutation: i) If the person be known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, then indeed, good sir, you should also say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact[is known]. (Ha~nci puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthena, tena vata re vattabbe yo saccika.t.tho paramattho, tato so puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.thaparamatthenaa ti.) ii) That which you say here is wrong, namely, 1) that we ought to say, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact,' but 2) we ought not to say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. iii) If the latter statement 2) cannot be admitted, then indeed the former statement 1) should not be admitted. iv) In affirming the former statement 1), while v) denying the latter 2), you are wrong (micchaa)." ***** S:Here's another early section too: 3.From the Kathavatthu above,Bk1, 111, Derivatives: ..... "Theravadin - Is the concept of soul (puggala) derived from the corporeal qualities (Puggalo rupalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati)? Puggalavadin- Yes . T: But has a soul also any or all of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Or is the concept of soul derived from feeling, from perception, from mental coefficients, from consciousness? P: Yes (to each aggregate in succession). T: Is any mental aggregate impermanent, conditioned? Does it happen through a cause? Is it liable to perish, to pass away, to become passionless, to cease, to change? P: Yes. T: But has soul also any of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.....¨ ..... [S:The same argument applies to table, chair, tree and so on....] ... S: Tep, I think you'll find the same meaning of paramattha and pa~n~natti expressed throughout the Suttanta in different terminology which, as we agreed, is not important. The ti-lakkahna refer just to the former: A short example of lines from a sutta which convey the same meaning to me as this last extract: SN1:76 (6) Does Not Decay: "What decays, what does not decay? ...... "The physical form (rupa) of mortals decays (jaarati), Their name and clan does not decay." Metta, Sarah ======= 46637 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:13am Subject: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hello all This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama. It can feel like a cold shower, Nina says - maybe we are not ready yet for that kind of understanding. "But it's the truth," Kh Sujin says. "It's the truth." I can feel her confidence when she says that, very infectious. (It's probably my favourite single moment of the 30 hours or so of talks I've listened to so far.) And I must say that it *did* feel like the truth to me the last couple of days, and more like a warm shower than a cold shower. Is this just another demonstration of something I have been well known for amoungst close friends and loved ones in the past - a tendency to keep a certain distance from loved ones even while I rhapsodize about helping strangers? Perhaps. But in any case I was grateful the last few days to be aware of my sad feelings as sad feelings, as nama. I didn't get swept up by the sadness of the story like I would have in the past. Grateful to the Buddha and my Dhamma friends for that. As for the Alzheimer's, it has me feeling grateful for mental clarity and makes me feel eager to continue to begin to eradicate unwholesome roots and cultivate wholesome roots. That may be fear doing the conditioning, but so be it. We know that akusala can condition kusala at times. Also this feels like a good way to feel gratitude to my mother, for developing the mind is probably the best use we can make of the body given to us by our parents and kamma and so on. Metta, Phil 46638 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Dear Phil - In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. ============================ Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! My unrequested advice to you, and I mean it very, very sincerely and emphatically, is to please spend as much time with your mother now while a degree of clarity remains in her, and permit yourself to love both your folks with all your heart and soul and to unmistakenly express your love to them. The Buddha said that what we owe to our parents is beyond measure. You will be very, very happy that you have not missed this opportunity to be with them and to show your love to them. I'm very sorry for the upset that this must cause for your folks and for yourself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46639 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? Katthavatthu Quote For Sarah abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Sayadaw Dhammanando, Nina and all How are you? Sarah wrote: "I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think)." The qoute can be found in the last sub-heading (21. saccika.t.thasabhaagaanuyoga) within Puggalakathaa. The exact Section number is 235. Mahaa Moggalipuuta Tissa Thera quoted the same Suttam passage under discussion. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Ven Dhammanando, Howard, Tep & all, Ven D: >attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane(MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) <..> ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..."< .... S: Tep asked about the use of paramattha in this context. I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think). Metta, Sarah ======= 46640 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth foamflowers Dear Phil, Knowing this truth it will be much easier to be very close to your Mom and Dad right now as you see things come and go. You'll know this pain will not last forever. Even knowing this on an intellectual level has helped me during some really tough times. We as a family went through this with my Mom's Father my Grandma Dorothy's Husband. With Metta, Lisa 46641 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Sarah, > I had trouble finding what Kvu. 68 refers to (Ven > Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering > I looked at is different, I think). Kvu. 68 is the page number of the PTS Pali text. It's on page 62, paragraph 242 in _Points of Controversy_. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46642 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Hi Lisa, Your post resonated with me. I would like to expand on it. I hope I don't ruin what you are saying in the process :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear DSGers, > > During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual > understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending lectures, > discussing issues between themselves and or having a talk with a teacher. But during > that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed > in a different way? > > I also read books have ruinded our memory (Okay I read to much) we no longer have > to really understand something we just get a book and it already knows and > remembers for use. I use my phone and computer to help me remember dates and > times. But to understand something through theory has never been my strong point. > I have to do it hands on to really know and understand. > > That's just me though I have seen many types of learning patterns. <==book worm > There are a number of different kinds of knowing. There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. Which leads me to "knowing how". This is procedural knowledge. Knowing that one holds on to a rope behind a moving boat in order to water ski is very very different to co-ordinating all the fine and gross muscles to end up gliding on top of the water. No amount of "knowing that" will lead to "knowing how". To learn to "know how" one must do it. Also, "knowing that" is not, in fact cannot be, a prerequisite for coming to "know how". (Knowing how is a prerequisite for knowing that) There is also a "knowing to". One may think themselves to be a very proficient water skier, whilst reading up on the latest trends in the sport for example, or having a few beers on the jetty, but a proficient water skier is only that while actually water skiing proficiently. Amongst all the acts that one is capable of doing, having learnt how to do them, we are doing only one or a few. Now to Buddhism. Buddhism is a "knowing to". It is how one lives. It is the ongoing act of doing those things that lead to cessation, thereby discarding those acts that lead to becoming. Many people convince themselves that they need to acquire more "knowing that" before they can "know how" or "know to". This is a complete inversion of the Buddha's program. The Buddha taught noone to read and write, to notate all that he ever said, to categorise and systematise his opus, to "know that". One can know everything the Buddha ever said, and be completely oblivious to how the search for "knowing that" is the craving for existence. The Buddha taught cessation of suffering. He taught "knowing how" by doing it, and once knowing how to do it "just do it!" There is no vicarious knowing how, no vicarious knowing to. One may well write a compendium full of "knowing that", but only after one is well established in knowing how and knowing to. And only if one ensures it doesn't get into the wrong hands :-) Cheers Herman 46643 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Sarah: "Desire can desire anything -- concepts or realities (except lokuttara dhammas). Taste is a paramattha dhamma. Isn't there desire for certain tastes when we eat?" Hi Sarah, Good question. What are we desiring when we desire a taste? It isn't the neutral feeling that arises with taste. It occurred to me today that satipatthana can't figure out what desire desires. That is a job for psychoanalysis. Larry 46644 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Phil, In a framework of daily life, that daily life is the reality of dukkha. In a framework where everything is only nama, that nama is the reality of dukkha. Whether it is daily life, or nama, the reality is the same. The Buddha taught the end of suffering. It is a highly unappealing message for those attached to daily life, or nama. I am truly sorry to hear about your mother. Kind Regards Herman 46645 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Review of Sections i - iii.. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the Anapanasati bhavana. This third treatise of 'The Path of Discrimination' is not easy to understand, partly because of the difficult material itself, partly because of the terseness, and partly because of the flow of the book presentation. The best we can do to make the material easier to understand is by providing more background Pali words (thanks to Han Tun) and by discussion (brainstorming). We can add more details to the treatise by referencing appropriate materials (e.g. commentaries and related suttas). As to the third difficulty, perhaps the flow may be easier to follow if we have some kind of a "word map". This map, which is presented below, shows the connectedness of the contents of the three sections, according to my understanding. Please let me know if you have some ideas for improvement, a criticism, or any thought. Section i consists of paragraphs 3 - 5. The 8 knowledges of imperfection (obstacles to concentration) and the 8 knowledges of aids to concentration are given in the paragraph 3. There are two groups of unities(ekatta), the first group that is shown in the paragraph 4 includes renunciation, non-ill-will, perception of light, non-distraction, definition-of-ideas, knowledge, gladness, and all profitable ideas. Paragraph 5 describes hindrances which block the outlets (equivalently, unities) for noble ones. Section ii consists of paragraphs 6 - 14. The 18 knowledges of concentration imperfections, that may arise (in momentary combinations) during a mindfulness of breathing which employs the 16 grounds, are given in these paragraphs. Section iii consists of paragraphs 15 - 182. The second group of unities is given along with the 13 knowledges of cleansing. There are 4 unities in this group (corresponding to the knowledges # 7 - #10): those consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift, the sign of serenity, the characteristics of fall (vaya lakkhana), and cessation. In these four instances cognizance arrived at unity enters into purification of the way (knowledge #11), is intensified in equanimity (knowledge #12), and is satisfied by knowledge (knowledge #13). It should be noted that the last 3 knowledges of cleansing are the common characteristics of any of the 4 jhanas, the four immaterial jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and the four ariya-maggas. Paragraphs 19 - 168 cover the jhanas through the maggas cases; they indicate that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful method for developing the ariya-maggas. The paragraphs 168 through 182 are a preview of the 32 knowledges in Anapanasati bhavana of Section iv. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Last week the post stopped at the middle of paragraph 174. This week > we complete the long Section iii which ends at paragraph #182. For the > next 7 days we should have a discussion on the 3 sections we have > studied so far, so that we may all have a clearer understanding of the > various knowledges (naana) to be gained by breathing meditation. > > The next presentation on Friday 17th will be Section iv 's introductory > paragraph #183 on the "thirty-two knowledges in mindful workers" > (who mindfully breathe in and breathe out by the 16 grounds: 16x2 = > 32 modes of naana). > > ( 174. continued...) > 46646 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Dan, Another thought which comes across is whether insight gained or acquired is permanent or is it anicca - impermanent. For Buddha it would have been convenient to "maintain" the insight gained as he was always with the Sangha or Sangha was with him but is it so with laity. Can you please reflect upon and throw some light! metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand what you were saying. And the distinction you make between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I look at them too. I do think that many people would put "insight" into the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from reasoning). Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much sitting on a cushion with no development. <....> 46647 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:17pm Subject: The Monkey passing the Bananas ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Repeatedly Lost Opportunity: Having laid it out three ripe bananas to the monkeys, I was quite a baffled after seeing an adult macaque pass by them unnoticed, even though they were within reach and less than ½m away ... !!! Then it appeared to me: Oohh so is it indeed also with sentient beings in this world: They pass by the Buddha-Dhamma again and again, life after life, never picking it up, even though it is perfectly formulated, completely releasing, and safely saving one from all that is suffering... Even though this Dhamma leads to the Deathless state, beings miss the opportunity & flutter on in Samsara... Obsessed with empty and decaying constructions... It is said that teaching the Dhamma in these ages, where the average human life length is less than 100 years, is like drawing in water with a stick... Highly impermanent if not impossible ... Therefore: Thanks to that monkey for telling it to me so clearly: No more 'bananas', neither here nor there nor evermore.... It is time to let go of all the 'bananas'! It is time to go .... Let there be Peace ... Let there be Happiness ... Let there be Freedom ... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46648 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only kelvin_lwin Hi Tep and Lisa, http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm These five went accordingly to the Buddha and asked for the imposition of five rules on all members of the Sangha: (1) that monks should dwell all their lives in the forest, (2) that they should accept no invitations to meals, but live entirely on alms obtained by begging, (3) that they should wear only robes made of discarded rags and accept no robes from the laity, (4) that they should dwell at the foot of a tree and not under a roof, (5) that they should abstain completely from fish and flesh. The Buddha's reply was that those who felt so inclined could follow these rules - except that of sleeping under a tree during the rainy season - but he refused to make the rules obligatory. This refusal delighted Devadatta, who went about with his party, declaring that the Buddha was prone to luxury and abundance. He was believed by the foolish, and in spite of the Buddha's warning against the dire sin of causing schism in the Order, Devadatta informed Ananda of his intention of holding an uposatha meeting without the Buddha, and, having persuaded five hundred newly ordained monks from Vesáli to join him, he went out to Gayásísa. On this occasion he tried to imitate the Buddha, keeping two chief disciples beside him (DhA.i.122). Three suttas, the two Devadatta, and the Mahásáropama, were preached after this event. - kel 46649 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:45pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Herman, Howard, Lisa and all Thanks for your support. Though I didn't ask for sympathy, of course I appreciate it nonetheless. (Kind of like people saying that they don't want presents before a birthday party...) > Herman: In a framework of daily life, that daily life is the reality of > dukkha. In a framework where everything is only nama, that nama is the > reality of dukkha. Whether it is daily life, or nama, the reality is > the same. Well, there is no separating nama from daily life...nama and rupa are all the time. (One can call them khandas if one prefers.) > The Buddha taught the end of suffering. It is a highly unappealing > message for those attached to daily life, or nama. Yes, I sometimes forget that we have to seek deteachment not only from concepts but from the underlying realities as well. There is dukkha with the falling away of each citta. I only know that in theory, of course. Here is something from Kh Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" that kind of gets at the way I am feeling about feelings these days: "If sati can begin to be aware of the characteristic of citta or of feeling, supporting conditions are accumulated for being less forgetful of realities when we have indifferent feeling, happy feeling, bodily pleasant feeling, painful feeling or unhappy feeling. We may be sad, but instead of giving in to unhappy feeling, there can be sati which is aware of it and then it can be known as only feeling cetasika arising because of conditions. Thus we see that satipaììhåna is beneficial, that right understanding can relieve suffering when one is distressed and feels unhappy." Of course there is only thinking about satipatthana now, not real satipatthana, but even the former is helpful for me today. Just as reading that lovely sutta about the passing clouds, the feelings coming and going, would be. Metta, Phil 46650 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 223 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Abhidhamma teaches us in detail about all akusala dhammas. They are not listed just to be read and memorized, they are realities of daily life and they can be known as they are by being mindful of them. If we consider akusala dhammas when they appear and begin to be mindful of them, we will come to know also defilements which are more subtle. We will learn that behaviour and speech we thought to be agreeable and pleasant are often motivated by selfishness; this happens for example when we want to endear ourselves to others in the expectation of some gain or favour from them. Our actions and speech are more often motivated by akusala cittas than by kusala cittas. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn about many types of defilements which arise time and again in our daily life. We learn about our tendencies and inclinations to akusala which we did not know before. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46651 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Thank you for sharing your wise reflections and appreciation of ‘cold showers’ at this time with us. --- Philip wrote: > Here is something from Kh Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" that > kind of gets at the way I am feeling about feelings these days: > > "If sati can begin to be aware of the characteristic of citta or of > feeling, supporting conditions are accumulated for being less forgetful > of realities when we have indifferent feeling, happy feeling, bodily > pleasant feeling, painful feeling or unhappy feeling. We may be sad, > but instead of giving in to unhappy feeling, there can be sati which is > aware of it and then it can be known as only feeling cetasika arising > because of conditions. Thus we see that satipaììhåna is beneficial, > that right understanding can relieve suffering when one is distressed > and feels unhappy." <....> .... S: Yes, I’m also reminded of the eight winds which so often we’re carried away by: the winds of gain, loss, fame, disrepute, praise, blame, happiness and unhappiness. I recently quoted from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas and AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta)], about how “It is in adversities, ...that a person’s fortitude is to be known". Nina found it helpful, so let me repeat it: Isn't it true that we learn about courage at such times? “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness, <...> "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of Relatives, loss of wealth or the, misfortune of sickness,.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and and unhappiness. "He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......” ***** And from the Ratana Sutta, while I'm reflecting on winds: "Just as a city gate post fixed in the earth is not shaken by the winds from the four directions, even so, do I declare to be a good man he who thoroughly perceives the noble truths." ***** And finally the verses from wonderful sutta I think you have in mind when you refer to the passing clouds? From SN36:12, The Sky, Bodhi transl), which I also like to reflect on a lot: “Just as many diverse winds Blow back and forth across the sky, Easterly winds and westerly winds, Northerly winds and dustless winds, Sometimes cold, sometimes hot, Those that ares strong and others mild – Winds of many kinds that blow; (yathapi vata akase, vayanti vividha puthu; puratthima pacchima capi, uttara atha dakkhina. Saraja araja capi, sita unha ca ekada; adhimatta paritta ca, puthu vayanti maluta) So in this very body here Various kinds of feelings arise, Pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant. (Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya.) But when a bhikkhu who is ardent Does not neglect clear comprehension, Then that wise man fully understands Feelings in their entirety. (Yato ca bhikkhu atapi, sampajannam na rincati; tato so vedana sabba, parijanati pandito) Having fully understood feelings, He is taintless in this very life. Standing in the Dhamma, with the body’s breakup, The knowledge-master cannot be reckoned.” (So vedana parinnaya, ditthe dhamme anasavo; kayassa bheda dhammattho, sankhyam nopeti vedagu'ti.) ***** K.Sujin has also reminded me how those we meet in this life, become attached to and form bonds with, are like winds passing by. We are born just to see and hear and form more attachments and then in the next life, we start again, making new bonds with a new family and new friends. May we all learn to develop satipatthana while we have the chance and help those we care for and are so indebted to as best we can in our own ways. With metta and very best wishes to you and your family as you learn to live with the various winds in samsara. Sarah ======= 46652 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, ----------------- AT: > Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). ------------------ I am trying to describe the Middle Way - in which there are only conditioned dhammas - in terms of conventional reality - in which there are householders and termites. It can't be done, and it is getting me into all sorts of trouble. I don't know if it has gone as far as "evil thoughts" but you could be right. -------------------------------- AT: > Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in attachment, for what can one man do for another?" -------------------------------- I'm not sure how that is equivalent to what I'm doing. But I think I can see how Lohica's thought was evil. He was thinking there was no benefit from kusala and no harm from akusala. The right, non-evil, way of thinking would have been; "Having done so, he ought to declare it to someone else." What should Lohica have done then? Should he have *tried* to put his right understanding into practice (as if he had control over reality)? No, he should just have continued with his normal daily- life. That would have included formal Dhamma discussions and, because he was a worldling, there would have been a lot of attachment and wrong view involved. But, occasionally, he would have "declared the Dhamma to someone" within the [kusala] meaning of the sutta - because it would have been conditioned by his right understanding. ----------------------------------- AT: > You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. ----------------------------------- No, I am not saying we shouldn't behave in accordance with the Dhamma (and the precepts). I am saying we shouldn't *try* to behave in accordance with the Dhamma (in the sense of believing we have control). If, in an effort to keep the precepts, we make normal daily life impossible (in my example, we let our house be destroyed by termites) then . . .. Well, you know what I have been saying. I think it was a mistake to get into this. I should take Sarah's advice and learn about the dhammas that are arising now. That way, the answers become clear. Agonising over hypothetical situations is not the way. --------------------- AT: > The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. What do you think? ---------------------- As I said, my sins are not as bad as Lohica's because I believe the Dhamma should be taught to others, and I believe the precepts should be kept - scrupulously. But there is no control over dhammas - when we realise that, we will be on the road to "right" Dhamma discussion and "right" precept keeping. Ken H 46653 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context (Categories) sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Joop & all), --- Egbert wrote: > The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know > Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he > understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. > But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they > understand it to mean. > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> .... S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short sutta I think you'll appreciate: Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is misery. This is called misery. "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." Good to see you back! Metta, Sarah ======== 46654 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? Katthavatthu Quote For Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando & Suan. --- abhidhammika wrote: > "I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be > grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I > think)." > > The qoute can be found in the last sub-heading (21. > saccika.t.thasabhaagaanuyoga) within Puggalakathaa. The exact > Section number is 235. Mahaa Moggalipuuta Tissa Thera quoted the > same Suttam passage under discussion. ... S: Thank you both for your help. I have the English and Pali passage now thanks to using both your messages. Good to read you, Suan. Metta, Sarah ===== 46655 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: Thanks for the feedback as usual. .... > S: > > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > > > AN10:121 > > > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of > the > > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > > wholesome states. ... S: Note that right view here is sammaadi.t.thi ... > > > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one > of > > right intention, right speech....right action....right > > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right > concentration. > > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > > deliverance springs up." .... S: Again right view is sammaa di.t.thi. Right knowledge is sammaa~naa.na.m .... > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon > > that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and > that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. ... S: I think I was just stressing that it is sammaditthi from than samma samadhi which is the forerunner or leader of the eightfold path factors. The development of the path leads to the various ~naa.nas and to englightenment. .... >You > should consult MN 117 too. ... S: Yes, it's the same. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first*. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." (see more under 'Mahaacataariisaka Sutta' in U.P.) *Nanamoli/Bodhi footnote: "Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." Anything further to discuss here? Metta, Sarah ======== 46656 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! sarahprocter... Hi Venky, --- V V Kulkarni wrote: > .V-. Thanks! for your response. I live in Mumbai with my parents, wife > Hema nad two kids- my daughter Vibha (12 yrs) and son Varun (8 yrs). > Well my family are habituated with rituals and I do not try to reason > out with them as I feel self realisation is the best realisation. I do > express my ideas when asked but I am happy that they have accepted what > I am now because especially my parents, who are orthodox , it was > difficult for me intially to explain the change in my lifestyle > pertaining to the rituals. ... S: I think your approach is very sensible and it sounds like a good family. .... > > Well the major change came to me when I did Vipasanna at Igatpuri Centre > of Shri.Goenka . It was 10 days residential course in Nov.'04 following > the Noble Eightfold Path of Sila , Samadhi and Panna . .... S: Many others here have also followed Shri Goenka courses too. .... > How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? > The basic need was calming of the mind which is still bit difficult but > with regular meditation in the morning and evening , am able to maintain > the calmness for sometime. I understand by Vipasanna is to view things > in their dhamma nature e.g the dhamma of fire has been ,is and will be > to burn. It is the perceptions which create differences and differences > disturbs harmony . > > Well thats again my perception isn'i it? ... S: Thank you. A good definition. .... > Do you have a pic for the album too? > > I will scan and add it ... Still waiting....:) I'm very glad to read your discussions with others. Metta, Sarah ====== 46657 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I think the material is so difficult, largely because of the translation. I'd suggest shorter installments with as many of your comments from the Thai version as possible (these are easier to follow!!). I really hope there is a new and improved translation of this text with Pali terms inserted in my lifetime! A few brief comments: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > {Tep's note: The Thai version's for "his mindfulness has parallel turn- > over with whatever he guides his cognizance by" is: however the citta > is directed, his mindfulness always accompanies it in the same > direction.} .... S: I have no idea of the pali here - but the meaning of anupassana is something like following and being aware. So visible object is experienced in the sense door process and awareness arises, usually in the following mind door process, to be aware of that object. 'However the citta is directed', awareness follows. .... > 'Brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa); there are four kinds of > bringing to very sameness: bringing to very sameness in the sense of > nonexcess(anativattana) of ideas arisen therein, bringing to very > sameness in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties, > bringing > to very sameness in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy, > bringing to very sameness owing to verisimilar abolition > (susamugghaatattaa) of defilements opposed thereto. ... S: this didn't mean much to me. I just checked 'susamaaraddhaa' in Buddhadatta dict and he gives 'thoroughly undertaken' So is it something like: 'thoroughly undertaken: there are four kinds of thorough undertaking: a)non-excess of dhammas(?), undertaking/restraint of the faculties, undertaking of right effort, undertaking by eradicating defilements ???? Really, I don't know....I think for these passages we need a new translation from the Pali or Thai. .... > > 'Very sameness' (susamam):[The pun on the word samma (same) > connecting it with sammati(pp. santo calmed) and here also with the > prefix sam (= con-), occurs a number of times in this work. See refs for > > 'same' in index.] There is sameness(samam) and very sameness. > > What is sameness? Ideas there arisen that are blameless and partake > of enlightenment: this is sameness. What is very sameness? The > supporting object for such ideas, namely, cessation, nibbana: this is > very sameness. This sameness and this very sameness are known, > seen, recognized, realized, sounded with understanding; tireless > energy is brought to bear(aaraddha), established (founded) > mindfulness is unremitting, the tranquillized body brings no trouble > (asaaraddho), concentrated cognizance is unified. Hence 'brought to > very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa) was said. ... S: Sorry, I'm quite lost. 'susamaahita'= pp well-grounded, well-restrained. I don't know if it's relevant. ... > > 175. 'Gradually brought to growth': <...> > {Tep's note: the Pali Text Society says that anu + pubba = following in > one's turn, successive, gradual, and 'paricita' = gathered, > accumulated, collected, increased. Hence, 'gradually brought to > growth' = successively accumulated (from the first to the last ground). > The Pali 'paricita' is translated as "ob-rom" in Thai, i.e. to train so > as to > establish a certain quality or ability.} ... S: yes, like gradual teachings, ... > {Tep's note: The Pali Text Society says that Damatha = taming, > subduing, mastery, restraint, control. Hence, attadamatha is self > control. However, for comparison purpose, the Thai version for this > term is " self training". The Thai word for 'direct knowledge' is > 'roo-ying' > (abhi = ying, nana = roo), and 'kamnod-roo' is 'full understanding'. > But 'kamnod' does not mean 'full', it means mindfully aware.} ... S: I like all your notes and research. We had 'taming' and damatha in a sutta which Jon and Nina discussed. See 'Taming' in U.P. ... > > 177. 'Buddha' (Enlightened One): he who is the Blessed One, who is > what he is of himself, without teacher in ideas not heard before, [Read > anaacariyako pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu.] who discovered > (abhisambujjhati) the actualities by himself, reached omniscient > knowledge therein and the powers and mastery. ... S: I remember we have this same Pali phrase repeated a lot in the Dhammacakkhapavattana (sp?) Sutta which we were reciting on the bus in India. ... S: Tep, I hope you don't mind my indicating some of the difficulties I have when I look at these extracts. I'm sure others must find the same, so maybe just a paragraph or two at a time might encourage others to join in more. Many thanks for all your work...I especially enjoy it when you help with the Pali terms and add comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 46658 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS sarahprocter... Hi Alice, You told me (off-list) that you were busy moving office and so it's difficult for you to shorten the extracts or introduce yourself. I hope we have a chance to get to know you better when you're more settled. Are you in England or Sri Lanka I wonder? Please tell us about the course you are sharing around and your interest in it. You asked a question at the end: A:> What do you understand of this: > "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." > When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads > from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor > takes away the life of the man. ... S: I agree with it. It's just how I see the danger of drink. It's habit forming and makes it more likely that all kinds of akusala (unwholesome deeds) will occur. Liquor really took away my father's life in this way. How about you? What are your comments? ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center > > www.mahindarama.com > > With Metta > Alice .... S: Have you been to this centre...please tell us about your contact. Metta, Sarah ======= 46659 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:30am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Kel (and Lisa) - I appreciate the important reference that you provided. It reminded me of the Middle Path view in the Buddha's first discourse to the five ascetics. It also showed how easy it was for even monks to jump to a seriously-wrong conclusion, despite hearing the dhamma directly from the Buddha. Thanks, Kel. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep and Lisa, > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm > > These five went accordingly to the Buddha and asked for the > imposition of five rules on all members of the Sangha: > > (1) that monks should dwell all their lives in the forest, > (2) that they should accept no invitations to meals, but live > entirely on alms obtained by begging, > (3) that they should wear only robes made of discarded rags and > accept no robes from the laity, > (4) that they should dwell at the foot of a tree and not under a > roof, > (5) that they should abstain completely from fish and flesh. > > The Buddha's reply was that those who felt so inclined could follow > these rules - except that of sleeping under a tree during the rainy > season - but he refused to make the rules obligatory. This refusal > delighted Devadatta, who went about with his party, declaring that > the Buddha was prone to luxury and abundance. He was believed by the > foolish, and in spite of the Buddha's warning against the dire sin > of causing schism in the Order, Devadatta informed Ananda of his > intention of holding an uposatha meeting without the Buddha, and, > having persuaded five hundred newly ordained monks from Vesáli to > join him, he went out to Gayásísa. On this occasion he tried to > imitate the Buddha, keeping two chief disciples beside him > (DhA.i.122). Three suttas, the two Devadatta, and the Mahásáropama, > were preached after this event. > > - kel 46660 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Herman, and all Thanks for your Sutta-quote. When I read this sutta (Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery) I do it in my soteriological way. (I think that's more or less the same as Howard many times calls the phenomenological way of reading texts): "... And what, bhikkhus, is my misery? The by me (Joop) this moment experienced form is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced feeling is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced perception is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced volitional formations are misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced consciousness ismisery. This is called my misery. "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of my (Joop's) experienced misery? It is my craving that leads to my renewed existence, accompanied by my delight and my lust, seeking my delight here and there; that is, my craving for sensual pleasures, my craving for existence, my craving for extermination. This is called the root of my experienced misery." My message had many themes, I can imagine you have not (yet) reacted on all of them. I repeat the one that is for a DSG-discussion the most interesting in my eyes: The term 'The Middle Way is used in two (connected) ways in the Suttas: - as a behavior descriptive way; for example: avoiding the two extremes of sensual lust and self-torment (and livingaccording the Noble Eightfold Path); - as a philosophical principle; for example: transcending the duality annihilism vs eternalism, as explained by the Buddha in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' and in 'The Cosmologist'. I propose another example of the philosophical principle: On the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' ànd I see that person as 'a suffering being' (not a concept). To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The middle way is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment. Sarah, you already reacted on a part of this statement of me: Sarah: In truth, there are just 5 khandhas. Understanding this truth and the ignorance which keeps samsara spinning, leads to more compassion, not less as I see it. Joop: Now you are talking about 'just 5 khandhas' giving the illusions of 'me', not about those of the other (suffering) person. So to make the analysis of 'somebody suffering and me having compassion for that person' complete, we need the other part of the soteriological Middle-way-truth. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman (Joop & all), > > --- Egbert wrote: > > > The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know > > Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he > > understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. > > But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they > > understand it to mean. > > > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> > .... > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > sutta I think you'll appreciate: > > Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) > > "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in > the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... > > "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; > perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is > misery. This is called misery. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads > to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight > here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for > existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." > > Good to see you back! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 46661 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only jwromeijn Hallo tep A little bit hidden in my message #46587 I put 'my' Sutta: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) Metta Joop 46662 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth onco111 Hi Phil, I'm sorry to hear about your mother's ill health. It must be very difficult for her (as well as for you and your father) to see such profound changes and have so little control over them. Just last night I was reading about Lou Gehrig's fight with ALS (a.k.a. "Lou Gehrig's disease"), a disease in which the nerves that control the muscles waste away until the person dies within a few years. The mind stays clear, but the body just stops working. Gehrig was one of the greatest Major League Baseball players in history, and he got the disease while he was still playing ball. After the diagnosis, the Yankees held a special "Lou Gehrig Appreciation Day". Lou stumbled up a microphone in front of crowd of 60,000+ in Yankee stadium and said: "Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about the bad break I got. Yet today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth." [Thunderous applause.] "I have been in ballparks for seventeen years and have never received anything but kindness and encouragement from you fans. Look at these grand men. Which of you wouldn't consider it the highlight of his career just to associate with them for even one day? Sure, I'm lucky...I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for. Thank you." I do wish you and your mother and father well in these tough times. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > > Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama. > It can feel like a cold shower, Nina says - maybe we are not ready > yet for that kind of understanding. "But it's the truth," Kh Sujin > says. "It's the truth." I can feel her confidence when she says > that, very infectious. (It's probably my favourite single moment of > the 30 hours or so of talks I've listened to so far.) And I must say > that it *did* feel like the truth to me the last couple of days, and > more like a warm shower than a cold shower. > > Is this just another demonstration of something I have been well > known for amoungst close friends and loved ones in the past - a > tendency to keep a certain distance from loved ones even while I > rhapsodize about helping strangers? Perhaps. But in any case I was > grateful the last few days to be aware of my sad feelings as sad > feelings, as nama. I didn't get swept up by the sadness of the story > like I would have in the past. Grateful to the Buddha and my Dhamma > friends for that. > > As for the Alzheimer's, it has me feeling grateful for mental > clarity and makes me feel eager to continue to begin to eradicate > unwholesome roots and cultivate wholesome roots. That may be fear > doing the conditioning, but so be it. We know that akusala can > condition kusala at times. > > Also this feels like a good way to feel gratitude to my mother, > for developing the mind is probably the best use we can make of the > body given to us by our parents and kamma and so on. > > Metta, > Phil 46663 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - It was a pleasure to read your sincere and thoughtful comments on this presentation series. Yes indeed, Patisambhidamagga is very difficult. I have quietly complained to myself over the several years of study of this extremely important work originated by the Great Arahant Sariputta. My first study was the Thai translation (with no commentaries) and many times I thought the Thai translator had not done a good job. Lately I bought the English version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and carefully linked the Thai version to the English verson word by word, sentence by sentence. Then I began to appreciate the Thai version more than before. The more Pali words added by Han Tun from his original Pali text of the Patisambhidamagga book are like magic ingredients that make good foods taste great. Now, I am putting the three components (Thai, English and Pali) together, like assembling three legs to the top to make my "tripod of understanding" complete. > S: Tep, I hope you don't mind my indicating some of the difficulties I > have when I look at these extracts. I'm sure others must find the same, so maybe just a paragraph or two at a time might encourage others to join in more. > Tep: Comments and suggestions for improvement from studious members like you will make this series 10 tiimes better. Thank you a whole lot, Sarah. >S: Many thanks for all your work...I especially enjoy it when you help with the Pali terms and add comments. > Tep: You're warmly welcome! I'll try to do research of this kind as much as necessary. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I think the material is so difficult, largely because of the translation. > I'd suggest shorter installments with as many of your comments from the Thai version as possible (these are easier to follow!!). I really hope > there is a new and improved translation of this text with Pali terms > inserted in my lifetime! > > A few brief comments: > 46664 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Great question, Venky. There is no Self that "gains" an insight and no Self in which to store it once it arises. It simply arises and passes away in a moment. However, there will be memory of insight. The memory may be very weak. It might not even strong enough to evoke conceptualization about it or a description of it -- beneath the radar, so to speak. Or the insight may be so strong and so deep as to eradicate all tendency for future defilements. In that case too, the moment of insight is gone in a flash, but its effect is strong enough that all future consciousness is affected because there are no longer any conditions for taints to arise. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, V V Kulkarni wrote: > Dan, > Another thought which comes across is whether insight gained or acquired is permanent or is it anicca - impermanent. For Buddha it would have been convenient to "maintain" the insight gained as he was always with the Sangha or Sangha was with him but is it so with laity. > > Can you please reflect upon and throw some light! > > metta > > Venky > > "Dan D." wrote: > Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand > what you were saying. And the distinction you make > between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I > look at them too. > > I do think that many people would put "insight" into > the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) > and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from > reasoning). > > Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a > different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg > folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can > be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much > sitting on a cushion with no development. > <....> 46665 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 6/16/05 8:49:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwromeijn@... writes: (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) =================== Not for me! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46666 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Howard among many other members..)- You were right that I did not notice your sutta answer to the "Quiz question" because it was "hidden" in the message #46587. Joop (message #46587) : I thought: the Middle Way principle and Abhidhamma don't fit together very good, because Abhidhamma (or the way it's used most times here) is very absolutistic: something is kusala or akusala, something is a concept or it's ultimate truth. Joop (in another message): "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" Tep: The balancing approach above does not work when the two views are both extreme : "Is there a self(atta)?" (eternalism) "Is there no self?"(annihilationism) [SN XLIV.10: Ananda SUtta] Whenever the balanced answer does not make sense, we need to look for a right view that does not depend on the wrong extreme views. Tep: Seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view -- it is a right view based on non-detachment of the five aggregates, seeing them individually or as the "heap" as anatta. To see that person who is suffering right now as 'a suffering being' and be kind enough to offer helps is a right view (clearly understanding a kusala dhamma) that must be supported by detachment (no clinging) in the sense that the being who exists now is not the same before or after this moment (impermanence implies not-self, and hence should not be your object of clinging). Joop: Another meaning of the term "Middle Way" is of a philosophical kind. It's the way I used the term in my message. It's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes. The extremes of The annihilationist view and the eternalist view in the most important (I think) example of it: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ... ... This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra). Tep: I like the term "trancending the dichotomy of the extremes" and agree with your sutta choice which defines the middle path as right view ["Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle"]. Thanks. On the other hand, although my highly- respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo tep > > A little bit hidden in my message #46587 I put 'my' Sutta: > > Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of > Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > (snipped) > > This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the > favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm > afraid: The Heart Sutra) > > Metta > > Joop 46667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I wrote another post about this, explaining that I found your remark useful. You may not have gotten it. I also went away. I copy it: There is a reason when it is not clear in the English translation. knowing knows, feeling feels, it feels. Very deep. There is no person who knows and feels. Nina. op 09-06-2005 13:34 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I'm just kidding around! I simply find the > sort of language use that adds nothing to one's understanding a bit amusing. > It occurs noticeably, it seems, in the Abhidhamma and in the commentaries in > particular. (But the Buddha himself on occasion in the suttas said such things > as, to paraphrase, "knowing knows, and that is why it is called knowing" (with > regard to vi~n~nana). 46668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. nilovg Hi Tep and Sarah, Tep: As soon as I have time I shall answer your interesting points I discussed with Lodewijk when we were away and give you the quiz sutta. Sarah: some years ago Num posted about this subject as it was treated at the Foundation and I also added some of my Thai commentary. Also about the mindful workers that is coming up soon. This was shortly before Num left the list. In what way can I google this up? Under the name Num? Thank you, Nina. op 16-06-2005 07:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the > Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have > learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section > iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the > Anapanasati bhavana. 46669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil, Being just back I read your post. I really appreciate your attitude. Also the part about gratitude towards your mother. op 15-06-2005 15:13 schreef Philip op philco777@...: Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama..... And when we are near to that person the situation changes again. We have to think how to act that there is little time for worry. So nama changes from moment to moment. What helps me when I am sad or have a problem or worry is the well known quote from Vis. what is part of the Mahaaniddesa. Visuddhimagga, XX, 72: Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by... No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky...> Nina. 46670 From: "balancing_life" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS balancing_life Hi Sarah & EveryOne Here Well, i have just settled into the new office on Monday, but as Admin & Purchasing Manager, i have lots of work to do, ie, my job is to make sure the office runs smoothly, without a hitch or when hitches comes, then it's my job to find solutions to the problems. We moved 2 levels of offices from 9 am to 8 pm on Sunday, then on Monday, after getting the telephone keyphone system to install all the new lines, extensions and also the internet, i went to the old office to supervise the cleaning of the 3 levels of offices and the removal of all the rubbish & debris. The reason that we have to move, is that we got a government status for our software firm, called the MSC or MultiSuperCorridor and one of their stipulations is that we have to have an office, either in CyberJaya, KL (Capital of Malaysia) or in their PDC (Penang Development Corporation) building or else they will retract our status. We had already opened an office in KL, but our staff are reluctant to work there, as it is quite far from anywhere, as it's very near to our KL International Airport. Then on Tuesday, i had to go over to the mainland (as i live in an island, called Penang or as foreignors would call it "Pearl of the Orient" - years ago) to terminate the Electricity of another of our office, as the landlord wanted to sell the building and we had to vacate it, as we had to hand back the keys to him by Wednesday. So, today is the only day, i had time to unpack my office stuff...we still do not have internet access, although it has been installed, but it has been installed in our server and only our software engineer or architect, would be able to map it out, to each of our desktops or laptops and currently, they are not free to do so. Changing office, consumes lots of time, time to pack, time to move, time to unpack and loads of other stuff like terminating the old telephone lines and other utilities, making new letterheads, making new rubber chops, making new printed envelopes, changing all our staff's calling/name cards, faxing or informing our suppliers/vendors and clients of our new office address, telephone numbers, fax number, etc...sighhhh. Worst of all, last time, it took me about 30 minutes to reach the office, but now it takes me about 45 minutes to one hour to do so (depending on the traffic jams), roughly to & fro office, it takes about 12 hours, as i leave home around 7.30 am and reach home, around 7.30 pm. Enough of my working woes for the moment, so i will start to answer your questions. When i registered my yahoo id, when they asked me whether i wanted it to be American English or British English, i chose British, cos we were taught British English at school,years & years ago, so after when i finished signing up, to my surprise, it ended up an UK address...lol. But this course that i am taking is from a Sri Lankan Temple, a temple i go to worship Buddha and also to seek solace there. U See, (i hope it doesn't offends anyone), since i was very young, i was very fortunate and always thought that those who seek religions (except for those Muslims who have no choice but to have Islam as a religion as we are an Islamic country) must be those who are in trouble or seeking solutions to their problems. I have had about more than 10 Bibles, given freely to me by friends, but i never went to their churches, although i did read the Bible as i am a voracious reader, laying my hands on anything interesting, due to my inquenchable quest for knowledge and i am very broad-minded. So, the question is how i got into Buddhism? (i am in about 30 Yahoo- Buddhism Groups). Very long story & too private & personal to tell, and nobody would even believe me. Well, guess that all my Good Karma has been used up and now is reaping my Bad Karma, is the reason i got into Buddhism...my life is in a terrible turmoil, rite now, and again it is too p&c, to tell you guys about it. How i got into 30 yahoo-buddhism groups...well, my brother's daughter committed suicide after a childish prank, played by her so called best friends at school...she was 12 (July 9th will be the 3rd anniversary of her death), when she jumped 8 floors down to her death and her head struck the railings of the metal, on the entrance of the car park of her apartment. The story is that, 2 of her best friends, lured her to the toilet and whilst she was there, another so called friend, put something which did not belong to her, into her school bag. When the teacher searched all bags, they found it in her school bag, and it seems that the teacher scolded her so loudly and so harshly that the whole school heard it...imagine that. After the incident, it seemed that she hid in the toilet until school was over and waited for her mum to fetch her and her sister back home...that very nite, after her dinner, and after watching a Chinese Serial Drama, she and her sis went into their room at about 9pm to sleep and suddenly, her sis noticed that she was not in their room and went into their mum's room to see whether she was there or not, but she could not be found and horor of horors found her lying face up, dead on the floor, after her mum remembered hearing a big thud,a few minutes before her younger daughter, came in to find her. Well, i felt very guilty conscious & depressed after that, as after her parents were divorced,i would on alternate weeks, send them to their grandpa's place and after having lunch and after some shopping in the supermarkets, i would quickly send them back home to their grandpa's home (their father would fetch them back on Sunday evenings) and then i would go back to my office and then start chatting on my yahoo messenger, icq messenger and msn messenger or surf the net, as i was and still am an internet addict...but eversince her death, i have uninstalled, all my chatting software. My regret was that i never took the time or trouble, to really got to know my nieces well, and if i had done so, maybe whenever they have problems or troubles, perhaps they would have given me a call or just call me up to chat with me...although, i just know bits & pieces about their schooling, tuition, etc...my niece was in an English Kindy, but when she reached the age of 7 for primary/standard one, she was enrolled in a Chinese (Mandarin) School and she had a hard time catching up, as i heard she told me or rather her sister told me she was at the bottom of her class, but when she reached standard/primary 3 (or 9 years old), she excelled and always got either in the top 3 or top 5, of the worst, top 10 of her class. When my ex-boss, who is still in contact with me, saw the drastic change in me,(i was a happy smiling happy-go-lucky sorta person) he sent me an url for buddhism_depression, and from there, i ventured into other groups and some other groups also invited me to join them...so now, i have nearly 18,000 buddhism yahoo messages, which i think i do not even have the time, to read in this lifetime. So, at that time, when i was so depressed that i was almost a zombie, that i was unable to work for 2 months, and during that time, i went to the Mahindarama Temple there, and went to join them for their daily Puja Prayers which started at 11.15 am, and as the monks there must finish their meals before 12 noon, as they are only allowed to eat only one main per day, but are allowed beverages of Milo, Horlicks, Ovaltine, Cereals or whatever that is donated by their devotees, for the rest of the day. FYI, they are not vegetarians like the Mahayanas, as they depend on the Dana, by their devotees and in one of the books, i read that Lord Buddha was not a vegetarian either, as he would go out with his alms bowls and eat whatever is given...in fact, if i am not mistaken, he forsaw that he would die from poisoned pork and in order not to offend this person who especially invited him for the feast...he ate it, eventhough he knew it would eventually cause his death. U see, whilst i was there at the Mahindarama Temple, whose motto is "Do Good & Be Good", they had a lot of free Buddhism books at their counters, where you can help yourself to them...so, i took many home, as i was not working and started reading the basics. In fact, when i first ventured into the temple, i did not even know Lord Buddha's real name nor his story nor even know what sadhu! sadhu! sadhu! meant when i gave donation, nor even know what Dana meant. In the Mahindarama Temple, they have a Bodhi tree which originally came from a sapling or seed of the original Bodhi where Lord Buddha gained Enlightenment and also in the temple, there is a special room where his real "relics" are kept, which also has been brought there from India. Sarah, i am sorry, but i have to stop here for now as it's nearly 12.00 am and i have to get up at 6.30 am the next morning to get ready for work, so i will answer the remainder of questions tomorrow. With Metta :} AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land Hi Alice, You told me (off-list) that you were busy moving office and so it's difficult for you to shorten the extracts or introduce yourself. I hope we have a chance to get to know you better when you're more settled. Are you in England or Sri Lanka I wonder? Please tell us about the course you are sharing around and your interest in it. <....> 46671 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth ksheri3 Hi Phil and Howard, I can say that Howard has the right view by spending time with your mom. For fact I lost my mom almost immediately after I went out into this world on my own thru the USN. I even predicted her death in a chit, formal naval request, in that my request for emergency leave was because "my mom's gonna die", which she did a wk. later. This is back in 1980-1 som please don't simpithize me, I understand. What I'm getting at is that the sense of loss you will suffer will be astounding so by all means spend as much time with her as possible. In the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha it speaks of the re-birth process and the the thoughts at the time of death. This is a strange situation since the physical death may take years however the psychological death will be manifested before your very eyes and in a slow methodical way, no less. Based on what I've read so far in the Sangaha I'd have to say that you should try to have her realize her happiest moments as best as possible, as best you can as the process deepens. The object being that you want her re-birth to be as pleasant as possible so you wouldn't want her to feel remorse or sorrow for things she did not do or mistakes she had made throughout life. Let those illusions pass as non-attachment. Best of luck. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > ============================ > Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I > want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! <....> 46672 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Good to see you back! Briefly (it's 3.30am here -up early!): --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sarah: some years ago Num posted about this subject as it was treated at > the > Foundation and I also added some of my Thai commentary. Also about the > mindful workers that is coming up soon. This was shortly before Num left > the > list. In what way can I google this up? Under the name Num? Thank you, ... S: Try these posts in U.P. under patisambhidha and Patisambhida Magga. I don't think the ones after these are relevant to yr queery. At the ends of the posts, if you follow the links, they should take you to others in the threads not saved. 14156, 14178, 15064, 16306, 17540 google - if you try this, I'd suggest 'Num dhammastudygroup'. Or in dhammastudygroup.org, try 'Num patisambhida' or patisambhidaa?? .... Metta, Sarah ======= 46673 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/16/05 12:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: On the other hand, although my highly- respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. ======================= No, no. I didn't make myself clear! I intended just the opposite. My reply to Joop included the following: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) =================== Not for me! ;-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When I said "Not for me," I meant that, for me, the Heart Sutra is NOT out of the competition!! Actually, it is a Mahayana Sutta that I value very highly!! ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46674 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - Thank you for the clarification and sorry for my misunderstanding. Now I can look forward to hear more from Joop and you about the Heart Sutra (with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path). Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 6/16/05 12:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > On the other hand, although my highly- > respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your > thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the > Middle Path. > ======================= > No, no. I didn't make myself clear! I intended just the opposite. My > reply to Joop included the following: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm > afraid: The Heart Sutra) > =================== > Not for me! ;-) > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > When I said "Not for me," I meant that, for me, the Heart Sutra is NOT > out of the competition!! Actually, it is a Mahayana Sutta that I value very > highly!! > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 46675 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:09pm Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (and Jon) - The last sentense of your message (#46655) you asked, "Anything further to discuss here? Yes, Sarah. One more thing to go before I can rest. >S: Yes, it's the same. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first*. And >how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as >wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." (see >more under 'Mahaacataariisaka Sutta' in U.P.) >*Nanamoli/Bodhi footnote: >"Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right >view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates >formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view >of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the >radical destruction of defilements." T: You only touched upon the first part of MN 117 (Mahacatarisaka Sutta), I believed. The missing parts from your discussion are the following. (I) Circling of three path factors - the non-sequential behavior: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. [ Tep: The circling, the non-sequential nature of the citta development , repeats for right speech, right action, and right livelihood. .] Tep: Beyond the eightfold path factors, there are two more factors for the Arahant, and they are built upon samma-samadhi . (II) ".... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". Tep: So, right view is not the same as right knowledge, which is developed only after one has right concentration that are supported by the previous 7 path factors. Then right release(samma-vimutti) in the Arahant is built upon right knowledge(samma-nana). I have no further discussion. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback as usual. > .... (snipped) > ... > S: Note that right view here is sammaadi.t.thi > ... > > > > > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one > > of > > > right intention, right speech....right action....right > > > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right > > concentration. > > > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > > > deliverance springs up." > .... > S: Again right view is sammaa di.t.thi. Right knowledge is sammaa~naa.na.m > .... > > > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. > ... > S: I think I was just stressing that it is sammaditthi from than samma > samadhi which is the forerunner or leader of the eightfold path factors. > The development of the path leads to the various ~naa.nas and to > englightenment. > .... > >You should consult MN 117 too. > ... 46676 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/16/05 2:35:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I wrote another post about this, explaining that I found your remark useful. You may not have gotten it. I also went away. I copy it: ======================== Thank you! Actually, I recall having seen your original post, but I think I had no further comment to make. I do appreciate your following up. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46677 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew T, > > ----------------- > AT: > Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that > plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the > Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). > ------------------ > > I am trying to describe the Middle Way - in which there are only > conditioned dhammas - in terms of conventional reality - in which > there are householders and termites. It can't be done, and it is > getting me into all sorts of trouble. I don't know if it has gone as > far as "evil thoughts" but you could be right. > > -------------------------------- > AT: > Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin > were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to > declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It > is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a > new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in > attachment, for what can one man do for another?" > -------------------------------- > > I'm not sure how that is equivalent to what I'm doing. But I think I > can see how Lohica's thought was evil. He was thinking there was no > benefit from kusala and no harm from akusala. The right, non-evil, > way of thinking would have been; "Having done so, he ought to declare > it to someone else." > > What should Lohica have done then? Should he have *tried* to put his > right understanding into practice (as if he had control over > reality)? No, he should just have continued with his normal daily- > life. That would have included formal Dhamma discussions and, because > he was a worldling, there would have been a lot of attachment and > wrong view involved. But, occasionally, he would have "declared the > Dhamma to someone" within the [kusala] meaning of the sutta - because > it would have been conditioned by his right understanding. > > ----------------------------------- > AT: > You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except > emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good > doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. > ----------------------------------- > > No, I am not saying we shouldn't behave in accordance with the Dhamma > (and the precepts). I am saying we shouldn't *try* to behave in > accordance with the Dhamma (in the sense of believing we have > control). If, in an effort to keep the precepts, we make normal daily > life impossible (in my example, we let our house be destroyed by > termites) then . . .. Well, you know what I have been saying. > > I think it was a mistake to get into this. I should take Sarah's > advice and learn about the dhammas that are arising now. That way, > the answers become clear. Agonising over hypothetical situations is > not the way. > > --------------------- > AT: > The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full > of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. > > What do you think? > > ---------------------- > > As I said, my sins are not as bad as Lohica's because I believe the > Dhamma should be taught to others, and I believe the precepts should > be kept - scrupulously. But there is no control over dhammas - when > we realise that, we will be on the road to "right" Dhamma discussion > and "right" precept keeping. Ken H Quite nicely put. I had only penciled you into my "evil" book, but I think I might erase you now. Okay? (-: Best wishes Andrew T 46678 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers Hi Joop, hallo everyone... ==>Lisa cut out some of Joops post that was very nice but I don't want to post to much and the quotes I found from my old notes are about the "Middle Way." Joop: The term 'The Middle Way is used in two (connected) ways in the Suttas:- as a behavior descriptive way; for example: avoiding the two extremes of sensual lust and self-torment (and livingaccording the Noble Eightfold Path); - as a philosophical principle; for example: transcending the duality annihilism vs eternalism, as explained by the Buddha in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' and in 'The Cosmologist'. L: thought I knew what the middle way was...I looked at some of my old notes and found this. "There is a Middle Way (majjhima patipada) for the abandoning of greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), giving vision (cakkhukarani), giving knowledge (ñanakarani), which leads to tranquility (upasamaya), to direct knowledge (abhiññaya), to enlightenment (sambodhaya), to Nibbana (nibbanaya samvattati). And what is that Middle Way? It is just this Noble 8-Fold path (ariyo atthangiko maggo). (MN 1.1) "The Middle Way discovered by the Tathagata avoids both these extremes (self- mortification / pursue of sensual-pleasures), giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to bliss, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. It is just this Noble 8- Fold path." (MN 3.231) "The Tathagata has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, to knowledge; leading to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." SN 4.331) My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of non-duality, gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you think what ever your thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped off....ouch....;) With Metta, Lisa 46679 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution foamflowers Dear Tep, I woud like to thank you and Sarah and the rest of the hardy DSG folks for reaching out and really trying to communicate with me. You are show the hardiness factor! I want to tell both of you again how much I am amazed by your knowing and understanding. I do not bow to the heap or to the thought but to the light in your hearts. With Metta, Lisa ........Kel I went to my favorite book when I read your post (hahahaha), I will post a comment on it in a minute. > > Hi, Kel (and Lisa) - > > I appreciate the important reference that you provided. It reminded me > of the Middle Path view in the Buddha's first discourse to the five > ascetics. It also showed how easy it was for even monks to jump to a > seriously-wrong conclusion, despite hearing the dhamma directly from > the Buddha. Thanks, Kel. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > 46680 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Lisa, > H: Your post resonated with me. I would like to expand on it. I hope I don't ruin what you are saying in the process :-) L: Sometimes I just don't know what to say to some things here on this board, so I don't say anything which can seem rude I am sure. Most of the time I stop commenting because I'm confused and I let go of it for a bit and wait to see if anything comes up. Most of the time nothing comes up and I just let it go and have to wait. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > Dear DSGers, During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending teacher. But during that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed in a different way? ^^^^^^^^^ I cut some of my scribble out of the above post.....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >H: There are a number of different kinds of knowing. > > There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a > very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire > knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. > L: Cut a little bit out but you don't scribble, you write very well and I kept my favorite parts, hope you don't mind. > > H: The Buddha taught cessation of suffering. He taught "knowing how" by > doing it, and once knowing how to do it "just do it!" There is no > vicarious knowing how, no vicarious knowing to. One may well write a > compendium full of "knowing that", but only after one is well > established in knowing how and knowing to. And only if one ensures it > doesn't get into the wrong hands :-) > > Cheers > > Herman L: Dear Herman, My mind hummed along a happy tune when I read your twist and turns on "knowing that" and "knowing how" I really like reading that kind of writing and I thought of some of my early study with a cool guy that is very intellectual and could right a with a philosophical twist too. I had to laugh at the heap that I call me as I ran for my book on Early Buddhist Theory on Knowledge.....;) I looked up knowledge in one of my reference books, "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge" by K.N. Jayatilleke. Well I must say that every civilization that I've read about has sooo many theories on knowledge, who knows it, how it is known, what it is and so on....wow Absolute, authoritative, cogitative, intuitive, higher, lower, three-fold, five-fold, more development and salvation, indirect, inductive and inferential as well, there is infinite, and insight and also the instrument of intuiting ultimate reality, now that looks interesting. 417....goes to that page[] Chapter IX "The Means and Limits of Knowledge." Let me see if I find anything that picks up the first interest I saw that stirred when I was going through the index ( I just love a well done index; don't you?). When Buddha lectured to the Kaalaamas and to Bhaddiya Licchavi, where he criticizes six ways of knowing based on authority or reason may turn out to be true or false, and he ends the lecture by stating that one should accept a proposition as true only when one has 'personal knowledge' (attanaa va jaaneyyaatha, I. II. 191) of it, taking into account the views of the wise of course. My question is if you're not wise how will you know wisdom when you met it in self or other? For me it doesn't hurt as badly as ignorance lol, that is wisdom when I see it does not bring the pain that ignorance does. (hahahah) Personal and direct knowledge is what attracted me to the teachings of Gotama, "Come and see for yourself." Gotama was not a closed fisted teacher and that is why I have stayed sitting as quietly as I can staying aware and mindful just incase Buddha decides to visit my town or even my heart. I would like to be able to see him like the guy in my favorite Sutta MN 77. But as soon as I go down the knowledge street I find the house of truth and there are many houses built from truth all of different shapes and sizes. The many theories of truth really do give me a headache... I think I will stick with knowledge for a moment and look at duality when I look at something even myself I see an object how can I truly know myself if I see me as an object. How can something be a subject and an object at the same time? There I am back to reality as being of itself and no other and having this knowledge of reality I get really mixed up! How can I have knowledge of reality and and also be the subject of that knowledge, which I've been told can never be known since it is never the object and I can't know the knower of the knowing (na jijnatervij~naataaram vijaaniiyaah). Logic and reason can be used to tell the truth or tell a lie but I know that truth on a relative level is always dependent on something else to be and can never be in and of itself and is not truth as it is. Well I guess I could go on writing about knowledge (and drift of into what truth is as well) for the rest of my life but I haveto build an excel file for my bosses billing system...formula's are so fun! And to think some people believe that mathmatical formulas can express reality as it isl....of course I may sound a bitter because math isn't my strong point...lol...I am very spatial...lol With metta, Lisa 46681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 183 - 194. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - We begin Section iv today; it is even longer than Section iii, but it is much better organized. Tep's Note: This new section consists of paragraphs 183 to 597; these are relatively short or very short paragraphs that deal with the four tetrads of the Anapanasati. Corresponding to each of the 16 grounds (4 grounds per tetrad), you will see analysis of the object of meditation (or contemplation), a brief description of establishment of mindfulness and training, a statement on excercise of sati and sampajanna, and combining the faculties(indriya). [Section iv] 183. What are the thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers? [Sutta Summary: 4 tetrads, 16 bases, 32 modes ] Here a bhikkhu , gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever midful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (1) Breathing long, he knows 'I breathe in long'; (2) or breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'. (3) Breathing in short, he knows 'I breathe in short'. (5) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in accquainted with the whole body [of breaths]' (6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out accquainted with the whole body [of breaths]'. (7) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the body formation', (8) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the body formation'. (9) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with happiness'; (10) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with happiness'. (11) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with pleasure'; (12) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with pleasure'. (13) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the cognizance formation'; (14) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the cognizance formation'. (15) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the cognizance formation'; (16) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the cognizance formation'. (17) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with cognizance'; (18) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with cognizance'. (19) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in gladdening cognizance'; (20) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out gladdening cognizance'. (21) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in concentrating cognizance'; (22) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out concentrating cognizance'. (23) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in liberating cognizance'; (24) He trains thus 'I shall breathe out liberating cognizance'. (25) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence'; (26) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence'. (27) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating fading away'; (28) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating fading away'. (29) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating cessation'; (30) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating cessation'. (31) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment'; (32) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment'. (Vin iii 70f; M iii 83; S v 311f; A v 111) * [Commentary on Introductory Paragraph] 184. 'Here': in this view, in this choice, in this preference, in this selection, in this True Idea, in this Discipline (vinaya), in this field of True Idea and Discipline, in this doctrine, in this Good Life, in this Master's Dispensation. Hence 'here' is said. 185. 'A bhikkhu': a bhikkhu is a magnanimous ordinary man or an Initiate or an Arahant who has reached the unassailable idea. 186. 'Forest': having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. 187. 'Root of a tree': where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or stands or sits or lies down. 188. 'Empty': unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness. 189. 'Place': dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave. 190. 'Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise': he is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. 191. 'Set his body erect': his body is erect, [firmly] placed , properly disposed. 192. 'Established mindfulness in front of him (parimukham satim upatthapetvaa)': 'pari' has the sense of embracing; 'mukham' (lit. mouth) has the sense of outlet; 'sati' (mindfulness) has the sense of establishment(foundation). Hence 'parimukham satim upatthapetvaa (established mindfulness in front of him)' is said. ['Has the sense of embracing' is in the sense of being embraced. What is embraced? The outlet(niyyaana). What outlet? Concentration based on mindfulness of breathing is itself the outlet, right up to the Arahant path. Hence, 'has the sense of outlet' is said. The meaning of 'outlet from the round of rebirths' is expressed by the meaning of the word 'mukha'(mouth) as foremost (front). 'Has the sense of establishing' is in the sense of individual essence. The meaning expressed by all these words is: Having made mindfulness an embraced outlet. But some say that 'has the sense of embracing' stands for 'embracing as the meaning of mindfulness', and that 'has the sense of outlet' stands for 'door of entry and exit as the meaning of in- breaths and out-breaths'. Then what is meant is: Having established mindfulness as the embraced outlet of the in-breaths and out-breaths' (PsA 30-1)] 193. 'Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out': he is a mindful worker in thirty-two aspects: (1) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in long, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. (2) When he knows unification of cognizance and non- distraction through breathing out long, ... (32) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing out contemplating relinquishiment, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. *** (i) <--- Tep's note: this corresponds to the first ground of Tetrad # 1. 194. How is it that (1) breathing in long, he knows 'I breathe in long', (2) breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'? [Analysis of Knowledge of the Object of Contemplation] 195. (a) He breathes in a long in-breath reckoned by extent. (b) He breathes out a long in-breath reckoned by extent. [... to be continued next Friday 6/23/05. Tep.] Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the > Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have > learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section > iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the > Anapanasati bhavana. > 46682 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:28pm Subject: our program nilovg Hi Larry, I am ready for XIV, 166. The Tiika has only one sentence, but I want to add something and review the notion of being prompted. 167 is very long. Nina. 46683 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Vism.XIV,166 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 166. The remaining formations here should be understood as already stated under the profitable. For it is only the unprofitableness that differentiates them as bad. So these are the seventeen formations that should be understood to come into association with the first unprofitable consciousness (22). (23) And as with the first, so with the second (23), but here the difference is promptedness and inconstant [occurrence] of (xliii) stiffening and torpor. 46684 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 224 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Among the cetasikas which can accompany akusala cittas, there are three which are unwholesome roots, akusala hetus(1). These hetus are the foundation of the akusala citta. They are: attachment or greed, in Påli: lobha aversion or anger, in Påli: dosa ignorance, in Påli: moha Besides these roots there are other akusala cetasikas which can accompany akusala citta, and each of these has its own characteristic and function. There are twelve types of akusala cittas and they are classified according to their roots. They are: 8 types of citta rooted in attachment, lobha-múla-citta 2 types of citta rooted in aversion, dosa-múla-citta 2 types of citta rooted in ignorance, moha-múla-citta (2) The cittas rooted in attachment have ignorance, moha, and attachment, lobha, as their roots; the cittas rooted in aversion have moha and aversion, dosa, as their roots; the cittas rooted in moha have moha as their only root. There is ignorance with each akusala citta. *** 1) There are three akusala hetus and three sobhana (beautiful) hetus which are the opposites of the akusala hetus. A root or hetu is the foundation of the akusala citta or the sobhana citta, just as the roots are the foundation of a tree. ... 2) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4, 6 and 7. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46685 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Lisa, I’d like to join in your discussion of the excellent Mahaasakuludaayi Sutta, MN77, selected by Lisa. I’d also like to pick up on Tep’s quote and comment here: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly > about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". > > "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it, > you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due > honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf > huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. <...> .... S: I thought Lisa raised very good points and questions, especially the ones about the sky scrapers and trees and the qu:: ‘Can’t the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytie or do you have to be physically secluded to do this?’ :-)) Also I find it all a little easier to follow in the ~Naan.namoli/Bodhi translation. First, the Buddha asks Udayin which qualities he is respected, honoured and venerated for by his disciples. Udayin mentions (wrongly) that it is on account of a) eating little, b) being content with any robe, c) being content with any almsfood, d) being content with any resting place, e) being secluded and commending seclusion. The Buddha then goes through the list showing that they are not the reasons he is respected and so on (as Kel also pointed out in another passage on Devadatta), ending with the last one you quoted. Let me add it here in full: “Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered, and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: ‘The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion.’ Now there are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, dwellers in remote resting places, who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Paatimokkha. But I sometimes live surrounded by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, by men and women, by other sectarians and their disciples. So if my disciples honoured me....with the thought: ‘The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion,’ then those disciples of mind who are forest dwellers....should not honour, respect, revere, and venerate me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. “Thus, Udaayin, it is not because of these five qualities that my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me.” ***** S: The last line is important. To stress, ‘it is not because of these five qualities...’. The Buddha then continues to give the five qualities on account of which he is respected and so on by his disciples, i.e: a) Higher virtue, b) Knowledge and vision, c) Higher wisdom, d) The Four Noble Truths, e) The way to develop wholesome states starting with the 4 foundations of mindfulness. Tep, you gave a good summary of these. So when the Buddha stresses that the path is one of seclusion (viveka) or learning to live alone and detached, it is usually to citta-viveka and upadhi-viveka that he is referring, rather than simply kaaya-viveka, which other teachers were praised and revered for. ..... > Lisa: >When I did my first retreats years ago > the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole > vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see > the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. .... S: I’m not quite sure if this is related to a passage in the sutta? When the eyes are closed, there’s no visible object or colour appearing (if it’s dark). I’d suggest the blossoms of colour are like dreams – fantasies of the mind. I liked the advice of your teacher not to become attached to them. Best to let it go and not cling. Khandhasa.myutta 22:100, ‘The Leash’ (Bodhi transl): “Even the picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On’. <....> “Bhikkhus, I do not see any other order of living beings so diversified as those in the animal realm. Even those beings in the animal realm have been diversified by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than those beings in the animal realm.” <.....> “Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or tumeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling.....only perception...only volitional formations....only consciousness that he produces.” <....> ***** L: >Question: There are some words and passages I just don't > understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's > past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me > understand it better? .... S: I’d be very glad if you’d care to share the passages in question with us all here for further reflection. I hope Tep and others will also give their suggestions or comments too. Metta, Sarah ======== 46686 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 165 and Tiika sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Larry, I kept a few comments for your return. Just to say here how much I appreciate all the similes and descriptions for uddhacca (restlessness or agitation), such as: --- nina wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 165. Agitation. > ******* > Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. > Thus, uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. <...> > Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by > the > wind. <...> > Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped > by > the wind. > ---------- <...> > Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with > stones. > --------- > N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in the > way > of reeling about. .... S: And we forget that while we're enjoying the walk through the trees or the sunset or the soothing music that such enjoyment is with 'disquiet'. It's quite different from the calm arising with moments of kusala when there's dana, sila or bhavana. .... <...> > N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of all > kinds of akusala. > The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that is > experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. ... S: But a moment later, whilst enjoying the sunset or music, awareness can arise of visible object, sound or any reality appearing and then the citta is 'quiet' or calm. .... <...> > The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of > uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady as > water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting with > stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. <...> > When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then there > is > uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent feeling. ... S: And here you say it. It's not a matter of trying to remove the disquiet or agitation of course, but when panna arises, the spotlight is on whatever appears and this may be the disquiet too. In appreciation for the work you both do. Metta, Sarah p.s I enjoyed the analysis of the terms related to uddhacca that Howard's comment prompted too:). ====== 46687 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Dan), These are difficult passages. I don't pretend to have any answers, but just a few comments for your consideration or feedback. --- nina wrote: > Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding > regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as > Dispeller > of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). > This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the > benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. > Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone > else. > ------ S: I mentioned these examples of worldly knowledge and spheres of work with K.Sujin and she suggested that they were given as metaphors....’like someone with worldly wisdom invents and so on......’ to differentiate between following another and reasoning on ones own. I don't think it's to suggest there is necessarily any panna involved in the spheres of science and so on, but to give the different kinds of work as examples for comparison. ..... > The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and > other > aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma > is > not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, > beginning with the first stage of tender insight. > ------- > Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of > ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². > As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this > is > insight knowledge. > That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the > penetration of the truth. <...> > Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. > For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres > of > work and so on, which were explained above.** > Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour > beneficial to > beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, > namely nibbana. .... S: I think we can also refer to cinta maya panna and scca ~nana as firm reflection or reasoning, unshaken reasoning in conformity with the Truths. .... > ----------- > * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is > of > such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² > ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity>. > The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for > people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of > science, > etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is > wisdom in > behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, > namely: > understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. .... S: Yes, but I don’t think we should equate worldly wisdom with panna. Of course there can be panna at such times along with the kusala when one is concerned for others’ well-being. ..... > As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this > means > that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s > words > of instruction. > The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding > consisting > of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). > But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. > And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two > kinds > of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. ... S: I take this to mean the particular reasoning and insight that arises without first hearing it from another. For us there may be cinta maya panna, but only if there has been suta maya panna, hearing from another first. Otherwise it doesn’t quite make sense. On your other post to Dan, #46546, briefly: 1. You referred again to Jotipala and sankharupekkha nana, but as I wrote in a Musings, we had long discussions on this in Bkk and K.Sujin had another understanding which made good sense to me. I know you'll find the recordings interesting when we eventually finish editing and download them. 2. On tender insight and so on. As you mentioned, of course there is thinking in between the arising of panna. When the insights are no longer ‘tender’, there is still thinking in between, but no doubt about it being thinking and understanding of it as nama. The wisdom is firm. We can take up any of these points in India if they are not clear or if there is any difference in understanding. I appreciated all the quotes in your messages and research and also Dan's comments and reflections too. Metta, Sarah ======= 46688 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, I think the passage which Lisa has quoted on the Middle Way being the Eightfold Path really says it all. --- Joop wrote: > S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue > to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take > for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these > dhammas are 'universal truths'. > > Joop (now): I'm glad you formulate this so clear because now I can > say that I don't agree with it. I know I (still) cling to an idea of > MY self. But on the same moment I'm agnostic about the question > if 'universal truths' do exist. .... S: At moments of clinging to 'my' feelings, 'my' body and so on, it's true there can't be any understanding of khandhas or 'truths', because these are merely namas and rupas arising and passing away that don't belong to anyone. .... >But I have to reflect a longer time > about this, especially how the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12:15) > combined with 'A Cosmologist' (SN 12:48) had to be applied to the > statement 'these dhammas are universal truths' > > > My 'concern' ? That the social dimension of Abhidhamma - on the > paramatthic level - is poorly developed. And that the way the > soteriological truth of the anatta-doctrine has been made a > ontological one is the reason for that stagnation. > The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the > list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not > exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas (I realize that > that's hard to proof) .... S: I haven't seen any difference in any of them, but often factors are overlooked. For example, often there's a suggestion there are different cetasikas mentioned in the commentaries from the Dhammasangani, but I don't believe this is correct. (see U.P. 'Dhammasangani'). yes, there is more detail given in the commentaries than in the suttas, but that's the purpose of the commentaries - to elaborate as needed. It occurs in the suttas themselves when disciples elaborated on the Buddha's words for those who needed more. ... > I define this 'social citta' as "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, > AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING". ... S: To me this is a kind of thinking, often without words. There is the seeing of the visible object and then immediately the idea of another 'presence'. Even babies have such an idea very quickly, don't they? ... > Of course you will say: we don't need this citta, that's no problem. > Do I want to improve the Abhidhamma? No, I'm modest, I'm just > formulating my subjective buddhist truth. ... S: It's good to hear your reflections always, Joop. .... > Stephen Batchelor - Living with the devil, p135/136. Note that the > Buddha did not say (and in my opinion even did not think) about the > sick monk that he was just five khandhas; like nowhere in the > Tipitaka the expression can be found (I guess): "This is not HIS, > this HE is not, this is not HIS self." .... S: For the Buddha there was no question but that the sick monk was just five khandhas 'dukkha....in short are these five khandhas'. Understanding that what we take for a sick man are the various khandhas does not mean we don't help, assist and develop metta and compassion when there is an opportunity. The khandhas don't belong to any self at all. There is no 'me' or 'him'. .... > If you react again (whenever in the future) please connect this > message of me with that about The Middle Ways (pural) in general in > #46487 en 46588 (the difference is one typo). > And that you react on my differentiation between soteriological and > the ontological interpretation of the Teachings of the Buddha. .... S: Thank you for checking out U.P. on this area. In your other post, I didn't agree with Olendski's comments but thought yours were much better:). You wrote: 'it's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes.' So the middle way is the development of right understanding as I see it. So back to your great choice of sutta, Kaccayana gotta Sutta, it emphasises this right understanding/discernment. When it develops, the extreme views do not occur to one. Then we learn about conditions and dependent origination. No self or other selves involved. Did you also see "Kaccayanagotta' in U.P.? Any further comments or disagreements? Please keep pursuing your social concerns and other points. We all learn from them and I missed you when you took your break. Metta, Sarah ========= " 46689 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Joop, hallo everyone... > > ==>Lisa cut out some of Joops post that was very nice but I don't > want to post to > much and the quotes I found from my old notes are about the "Middle > Way." Hallo Lisa I postpone answering Tep about The Middle Way (and emptiness), to give first a reaction to the nice words of you. You are of course right in your Sutta-quotes. But there are many more. To give a spatial metaphore: the Middle Way is situated in a universe with more dimensions. The Middle way in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' describes another aspect. And I added another aspect too because I think the Buddha did not mean we should have compassion for 'a concept', I can only have compassion for living (and thus suffering) beings. Of course it's the question if it's permitted to add something to the Pali Canon; I think it is, of course it should be discussed before it's added on a more definite way but it is permitted. A question, because english is not my native language: what do you mean with "you might get your tail nipped off"? I first readed "your nails cut" ('cut' is 'knipped' in dutch) which sounds as a nice - but strange - wish. Metta Joop BTW Today I found a site with three enormous texts about The Middle Way in Sutta Pittaka (together more than 500 pages): http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Part_1.txt http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Part_2.txt http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Topics.txt ..... > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of > non-duality, > gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you > think what ever your > thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped > off....ouch....;) > > With Metta, > Lisa 46690 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Howard, Colette & all), A few more reflections - no need to respond unless it's helpful for you to do so. --- Philip wrote: > As for the Alzheimer's, .... S: I once asked K.Sujin about the development of awareness if one has such a condition and her response was along the lines of 'it's not Alzheimer's all the time'. Different moments again. I also think of her comments when someone mentions a diagnosis of 'cancer' or something else and she says 'it's just a word or a label'. Again it sounds like a cold shower and can even seem shocking in the circumstances. But isn't it true that we hear a diagnosis and then have such long, long stories about it when we really have no idea what is in store for us at any moment? Sometimes it is the anguish on account of the diagnosis that causes the main problems as we've all discussed. Having written my other post and made these comments, I am keenly aware of the difficulties that usually arise in families with Alzheimers's. Few families are spared and I remember my grandmother's rapid decline and the household difficulties only too well. Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's commitments to be with one's parents physically. During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the same extent. When I spoke to her the day before she died, she talked with so much joy about how he'd been the greatest support and given the best assistance imaginable over her last difficult years after her husband had died and she became rather confused, emotional and very sick. He did visit for her last birthday, but most the time she had to rest anyway. Then he got to her bedside only just before she died, but there was no suggestion that he'd arrived too late to help. The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. I know Jon would like to add more and he may do so at the weekend when he has a little free time, Phil. He's lived abroad for almost his entire adult life and discussed these points often with K.Sujin who never suggests any particular action (as you heard in the discussion with the Burmese man with the dying mother in Myanmar). Metta, Sarah p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) =========== 46691 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Arouse yourself: Get Up and Going ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Enthusiastic Energetic Effort produces every Success: Buddha once said: Friends, the lazy person dwells in misery, soiled by evil detrimental states. Great is the personal advantage, that one thus neglects. But the energetic & enthusiastic person lives happily, secluded from evil detrimental states, and great is the personal advantage, that one thereby wins. It is not by the inferior that the supreme is attained. Rather, it is only by the supreme effort, that the supreme state is attained. Friends, this Noble Life is a sublime juice! Therefore, friends, while this Teaching is present, arouse your energy for the attainment of the yet unattained, for the achievement of the yet unachieved, for the realization of the yet unrealized... Considering your own future, friends, is enough to make every effort for reaching this goal; considering the good future of others, is enough to do your best; considering the best of both, it is enough to strive for the supreme goal with thoroughness! Thus, friends, should you train yourselves. Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 29 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46692 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, Good to hear from you too. You are quite right, I did appreciate that sutta you posted. Thank you :-) > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> > .... > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > sutta I think you'll appreciate: It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going pretty much the way they have been :-) from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), established on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), established on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), established on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible. "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) Cheers Herman > > Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) > > "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in > the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... > > "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; > perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is > misery. This is called misery. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads > to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight > here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for > existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." > > Good to see you back! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 46693 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:13am Subject: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 (was:Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 ...) sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you very much for your introduction and answers to my questions. I'll look forward to the second installment. I'm very sorry to hear about the tragedy of your niece. Thank you for sharing with us. There are other members here who have also lost siblings and children to suicide. It's very, very tough for families. My sister-in-law lost her sister last year who jumped from the white cliffs at Dover, England. I've been very concerned about my sister-in-law who has also been extremely depressed and off sick from work for months. At one point she left her family because she wanted to be on her own...I talked to her when I could and now she's moved back and seems to be doing better. How fortunate you are to seek guidance and solace in the Dhamma and to be able to discuss problems in this light. It makes a huge difference, I think. Please ask any questions here and join in any threads. --- balancing_life wrote: > In the Mahindarama Temple, they have a Bodhi tree which originally > came from a sapling or seed of the original Bodhi where Lord Buddha > gained Enlightenment and also in the temple, there is a special room > where his real "relics" are kept, which also has been brought there > from India. ... S: It sounds like a wonderful place and you sound as though you're doing well. Guilt and regrets are so totally useless....one has to let it all go- "For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state." (MN131) .... Sometimes it just takes patience and courage. As I also reminded my sister-in-law recently, when one's helping and concerned about others, one forgets about one's own grief or difficulties ..... > With Metta > :} > AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land ... S: This is so cute:). I look f/w to more AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land:). I'll look forward to any of your reflections on how your course and studies have helped you through this difficult time too. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon used to have lots of contact with Buddhist friends in Penang when he lived in Thailand and used to send boxes and boxes on Nina's early books to them -- 'Buddhism in Daily Life' and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. You may have come across the books, but now I think of it, it was nearly 30 yrs ago that I'm talking about!! =============================== 46694 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Nina, Sarah, Colette, Dan and all.. (especially Sarah for your two very long and thoughtful posts. They will be read and rearead many times, I'm sure, as your response to the "Dear Abbydhamma" post was...) There isn't really need to think about what to do now - that time will come. I was just curious about the way I responded to the bad news, without too much grief. In the past I would have taken this as coldness - and there may be an element of that - but now I feel that the Buddha's teaching has helped me a lot in having the response I did. (Others might say it is self using a pseudo understanding of the Buddha's teaching in order to find comfort...that may be true too.) In any case... > Ph: Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama..... > > N: And when we are near to that person the situation changes again. We have to > think how to act that there is little time for worry. So nama changes from > moment to moment. Ph: Yes, this is what I've been feeling. It's like the precepts. Thinking about keeping the precepts is pretty meaningless compared to a moment of abstaining from an unwholesome deed when the opportunity presents itself. And thinking about wholesome service to my mother is pretty meaningless compared to the actual performance of wholesome service to her. It's like looking at a picture postcard of Paris as compared to actually going to Paris. (Why Paris? Ooh la la...if you must ask, you have not been to Paree...) Looking at the picture postcard might be a condition in some vague way to actually going, and thinking of wholesome service might be a condition in some way to actually performing it, yes, that's true. I heard a very, very helpful passage from Kh Sujin today. Really great. I'm understanding more and more about why people go all the way to Bangkok to sit and talk with her. It's in the Savatthi talk. Chris had been asking about her sad feelings about whether to put Rusty to sleep or not: Kh Sujin: "And the others too...people in the hospital...to do one's best, that's all. Because you see that even crying, being disturbed by those situations, are not the Buddha's teaching at all. He saved (saves?) us from all akusala, with panna which understands the situation. What is the use of crying and happy? Happy is all right, but not crying. Chris (or someone): But it comes. Kh Sujin: So one knows one's accumulations. To understand the world, your own world. Because usually we mix all worlds together, but actually there is only one moment of citta. And it keeps on thinking about people and things and world and when there is understanding one can see at that moment whether it thinks with kusala or akusala. Just know or understand reality is the Buddha's teaching. (There follows more quesstions/comments from Chris about her feelings about seeing the suffering of animals when she goes to India and other Asian countries. Sorry for the loose paraphrase, Chris.) Kh Sujin: I think we don't know at that moment what kind of citta is thinking. Because if there is no citta which thinks there is no such and such story at all. We are lost again in the world of thinking. It cannot help one to see the anattaness of citta, which change from seeing to thinking, hearing to thinking, so we always live in the world of concept.So Buddha helps us to understand that actually it's only a moment of thinking. And it depends on kusala citta or akusala citta which thinks right then, which type of citta will arise. So it doesn't matter what will we do, but when there are conditions for doing a certain thing, you understand that it's conditioned that way, and you are released from crying because it's by conditions. Otherwise there must be idea, and theory to follow. Anything which will come closer and closer to anattaness, there should be more attention to that point. To really understand realities. And where's the dog? Phil's comment: Well, sadly, as we know, Rusty died, and my mother will probably slide into oblivion quite soon. So the concepts involved here are powerfully personal and involve a lot of intense clinging. (a.k.a love) So what Kh Sujin teaches above is not going to always help us when our level of understanding is so shallow. But *it is the truth*, it is the Buddha's teaching, and as Azita said a little later on this tape, we will benefit from understanding it, accepting it at least intellectually as soon as possible. On screen it might sound cold, but if you listen to Kh Sujin's voice there is real warmth. I really feel it like a warm shower, not a cold one. But, again, this is a bit suspect, because there is no way understanding could be arising through me to allow such detachment at this stage. So there might be some kind of coping mechanism at work, or, as friends have told me, I'm just a bit of a cold lad when it comes to family and old friends. (The folks are lovely people, and my brother and sister are as well - no dysfunctionalities as far as I can tell - but since I became an adult I've tended to fall out of touch. When we're together, we're together and it's great, very warm. Last summer we celebrated my mother's 80th, and the siblings performed, it was great. But when I'm on the other side of an ocean, I'm on the other side of an ocean...whereas with you Dhamma friends whom I wouldn't recognize if I passed on the street, I hang out and bare my soul...hmmm) Anyways, the next part of this talk is very interesting. Nina brings up Lodewijk's feeling that Dhamma should not be presented in such stark terms, that he cannot accept "there is no Nina." An interesting exchange follows. I think I will transcribe it next time. Metta, Phil 46695 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Howard among many other members..)- > ... Hallo Tep Tep: Seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view Joop: Thanks Tep. If you don't mind, I will react to your remarks when I also try to respond to Sarah's message #46688. Tep: … curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. Joop: That a difficult one. I'm not so much an expert, but I think that what the Heart Sutra and the Kaccayanagotta Sutta have in common is that they both about EMPTINESS. And it's the idea of emptiness that resonates deep in me, that I connect with the principle of anicca and that brings me again and again to the conclusion: I'm a buddhist. (Some month ago I already said, a little bit teasing Sarah: who is fighting his of her strong ego, is most interested in the anatta principle; and who is fighting a strong ontological need (like me), is most interested in anicca. That the Heart Sutra is about emptiness, is evident. And the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is (according David Kalupahana, who states that Nagarjuna is not a Mahayanist) the sutta that inspired Nagarjuna to write his famous Philosophy of the Middle Way (Mulamadhyamakakarika). The Heart Sutra is a hundred percent Mahayana text with some Sariputta-bashing in it, that's the reason I doubted to talk about it in DSG. Because your are curious and because of Howard's support I quote it here in the translation used by Thich Nath Hanh. THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA "Heart Sutra" The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. "Hear, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are neither produced nor destroyed, neither defiled nor immaculate, neither increasing nor decreasing. Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion and realizing perfect Nirvana. All Buddhas in the past, present, and future, thanks to this Perfect Understanding, arrive at full, right, and universal Enlightenment. "Therefore, one should know that Perfect Understanding is a great mantra, is the highest mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of all suffering, the incorruptible truth. A mantra of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed. This is the mantra: "Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha." Metta Joop 46696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I shall try these numbers. I was startled by the hour, up at threethirty, and hope that you get enough sleep. I realize that editing the tapes is a lot of work, but many people can profit of it. I am also busy copying them for myself. With appreciation, Nina. op 16-06-2005 21:25 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > 14156, 14178, 15064, 16306, 17540 > > google - if you try this, I'd suggest 'Num dhammastudygroup'. Or in > dhammastudygroup.org, try 'Num patisambhida' or patisambhidaa?? 46697 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Tep) - Sarah and Jon, I hope that this brief discussion of a Mahayana sutra is not too objectionable. I interpose my understanding below, in context: THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA "Heart Sutra" The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. --------------------------------------- Howard: I take the foregoing to mean that all conditioned dhammas are empty, that by the very fact of their conditioned, contingent status, they are empty of own-being, lacking a core of self-existence. They arise, but contingently, and are not self-existent. Likewise, emptiness is not a "thing" of its own; emptiness is never found except as the empty nature of dhammas. --------------------------------------- "Hear, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are neither produced nor destroyed, neither defiled nor immaculate, neither increasing nor decreasing. ----------------------------------- Howard: The meaning here, I believe, is that when dhammas arise and cease, there are no self-existent entities that are arising and ceasing. No dhammas have separate, independent existence even for a moment. (The formulation, of course, is confusing and a bit off-putting.) ---------------------------------- Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. ------------------------------------------- Howard: From the perspective of emptiness none of these exist as separate, independent entities or events. ------------------------------------------ "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion and realizing perfect Nirvana. All Buddhas in the past, present, and future, thanks to this Perfect Understanding, arrive at full, right, and universal Enlightenment. "Therefore, one should know that Perfect Understanding is a great mantra, is the highest mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of all suffering, the incorruptible truth. A mantra of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed. This is the mantra: "Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha." --------------------------------------------- Howard: "Gone, gone beyond, gone fully beyond: Hail awakening!" ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46698 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa - I appreciate your nice comment very much. I think all of the "hardy DSG folks" are also pleased. But the light in my heart is one of the most unreliable things I've ever known. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I woud like to thank you and Sarah and the rest of the hardy DSG folks for reaching > out and really trying to communicate with me. You are show the hardiness factor! I > want to tell both of you again how much I am amazed by your knowing and > understanding. I do not bow to the heap or to the thought but to the light in your > hearts. > 46699 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Sarah, Tep, Lisa, and all Tep and Lisa already got a partial answer of me, so this messages primarly is about Sarah's # 46688 I think … questions are central now: (1) CAN DE LIST OF DHAMMAS BE EXTENDED? Joop: > The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the > list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not > exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas. S: I haven't seen any difference in any of them, but often factors are overlooked. For example, often there's a suggestion there are different cetasikas mentioned in the commentaries from the Dhammasangani, but I don't believe this is correct. (see U.P. 'Dhammasangani'). yes, there is more detail given in the commentaries than in the suttas, but that's the purpose of the commentaries - to elaborate as needed. Joop (now) I don't discuss about the authority of the 'commentaries' because I promised myself to be careful in posting again a week ago. But about the difference some words. Motto: "There is no reason why the Abhidhamma philosophy of the Southern or Theravada tradition should stagnate today or why its further development should not beresumed." (Nyanaponika Thera, Preface to 'Abhidhamma Studies') Three examples: (a) In the Dhamma-Sangani 56 'states of consciousness' are listed, followed by "Now these - or whatever incorporeal, causally induced states …"The translator C.A.F. Rhys Davids informs us that "Nine other staes, according to the Cy, are here implied as factors in this psychosis, viz. desire, … resolve, …attention, …equanimity,…, pity, … sympathy, … abstinence…" (p 4/5) This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. (b) One of the Rupas in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is heart-base (hadayavatthu) In the list of rupas in the Dhamma-Sangani this base doesn't occur! I have read BB's defense that it occurs in a very vague way in the Patthana (CMA, p 144/145) but I think most scholars agree that's hadayavatthu is a real addition to the list of rupas. (c) My 'social citta' (2) MUST IT BE EXTENTED WITH A 'SOCIAL CITTA' ? In my buddhism (that is not 100% Theravada) I add: Joop: > I define this 'social citta' as "the intuitive, so immediate, > awareness of the presence of another being". ... Sarah: To me this is a kind of thinking, often without words. There is the seeing of the visible object and then immediately the idea of another 'presence'. Even babies have such an idea very quickly, don't they? Joop (now): yes, even babies, that's a 'proof' that it's not 'thinking' because babies (for exemple according Piaget) cannot think in this way. (3) IS 'ONLY FIVE KHANDHAS' AN EXTREME VIEW? Tep states that's not the case, but that 'only five khandhas' in a right view. Joop: Yes, that right, it's a right view in a soteriological and not in a ontological way. It's a right view when I contemplate about myself, when Tep contemplates about himself etc. But not about living beings in general. Perhaps I can better reformulate my statement: 'only five khandhas' an extreme view, BUT NOT TOO EXTREME. We had to combine it with another view (that is my eyes right too): a suffering being is not a concept; proof: I don't feel compassion for concepts. I realize this can be seen as a paradox or as a inconstistency (I am five khandhas but He is not five khandhas); but that is only the case in a ontological way of thinking And, as Ven. Nyanaponika Thera has explained, that's not a correct way (p 19/20). Sarah: So back to your great choice of sutta, Kaccayana gotta Sutta, it emphasises this right understanding/discernment. When it develops, the extreme views do not occur to one. Then we learn about conditions and dependent origination. No self or other selves involved. Joop: I agree, but I don't say a suffering being has a 'self', I say: a suffering being is not a 'IT' (cf Martin Buber: I and Thou). Metta Joop 46700 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:48am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Howard - I thank you, Joop, for presenting enough of the Sutra's main points just to give me some ideas. Thanks, Howard, for giving me a perspective from where you stand -- I agree with you that the "formulation" is confusing. Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear? Or does emptiness exist everywhere, internally and externally? Not only that the Sutra is confusing, I have also found some contradiction and exaggeration. Contradiction ------------------- The Sutra states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, no citta (mind); no dhammas (e.g. paticcasamuppada); no dukkha (sufferings); no nirodha(extinction of suffering); no path, no understanding, no attainment. Then later on, it states as follows: "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion ..." It is a contradiction to itself because Perfection of Understanding is also an understanding, therefore it does not exist. Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? Exaggeration -------------------- Nirvana is already the ultimate - you can't go beyond it. Therefore, "perfect Nirvana" is nothing but an exaggeration. Another exaggeration is the "full, right, and universal Enlightenment". If Enlightenment is not final, then "full Enlightenment" can be superseded by fullest Enlightenment ! Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Joop (and Tep) - > > Sarah and Jon, I hope that this brief discussion of a Mahayana sutra is > not too objectionable. I interpose my understanding below, in context: > > THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA > "Heart Sutra" > The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. > "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does > not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The > same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and > consciousness. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I take the foregoing to mean that all conditioned dhammas are empty, that by the very fact of their conditioned, contingent status, they are empty of own-being, lacking a core of self-existence. They arise, but contingently, and are not self-existent. Likewise, emptiness is not a "thing" of its own; emptiness is never found except as the empty nature of dhammas. > --------------------------------------- 46701 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 12:50:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Joop and Howard - I thank you, Joop, for presenting enough of the Sutra's main points just to give me some ideas. Thanks, Howard, for giving me a perspective from where you stand -- I agree with you that the "formulation" is confusing. Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear? Or does emptiness exist everywhere, internally and externally? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, there is no "emptiness" to enter. There is no such dhamma. There is what there is, and it is all empty (anatta). With the onset of full awakening, the empty nature of all dhammas is evident. All conditioned dhammas arise, not as separate, self-existent entities, however, but as contingent, dependent, and fleeting conditions that are momentary facets of an indescribable but quite real, diamond suchness called 'nibbana dhatu'. -------------------------------------------- Not only that the Sutra is confusing, I have also found some contradiction and exaggeration. Contradiction ------------------- The Sutra states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, no citta (mind); no dhammas (e.g. paticcasamuppada); no dukkha (sufferings); no nirodha(extinction of suffering); no path, no understanding, no attainment. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. These do not exist as real, separate, self-existent entities. The Perfection of Wisdom suttas use 'existence' to mean "substantial, independent existence", and they use 'nonexistence' to mean "nihilistic nonexistence " or "complete nothingness". These are extremes. What these suttas countenance as real is the middle-way sort of existence offered by the Buddha in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. ---------------------------------------------- Then later on, it states as follows: "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion ..." It is a contradiction to itself because Perfection of Understanding is also an understanding, therefore it does not exist. Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. ----------------------------------------- Exaggeration -------------------- Nirvana is already the ultimate - you can't go beyond it. Therefore, "perfect Nirvana" is nothing but an exaggeration. Another exaggeration is the "full, right, and universal Enlightenment". If Enlightenment is not final, then "full Enlightenment" can be superseded by fullest Enlightenment ! ---------------------------------------- Howard: The term 'perfect realization' would be better than 'perfect Nibbana'. I don't know what the original Sanskrit says. There are, of course, stages to realization. ------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 1. nilovg Dear Friends, The Commentary has included many passages we also find in the Co to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta, translated as 'The Way of Mindfulness' by Soma Thera. I shall abbreviate this as W.M. > [Section iv] The Knowledge of Mindfulness workers: satokari ñaa.na. 'Here a bhikkhu..': Tep gives the following explanation: 184. < 'Here': in this view, in this choice, in this preference, in this selection, in this True Idea, in this Discipline (vinaya), in this field of True Idea and Discipline, in this doctrine, in this Good Life, in this Master's Dispensation. Hence 'here' is said.> The Thai Co explains : a bhikkhu in this dispensation: here: in this dispensation. It states that this is different from other religions. The sectarians of other religions do not have recluses who have complete knowledge. ---------- Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. Co: then as in W.M. it is explained that a quiet place is suitable because the bhikkhu will not be distracted by the sense objects. The bhikkhu who should tame the wild mind is compared to a cowherd who ties a wild calf to a pole. We read: We read in the Co to the Path of Discrimination the words: We read in both commentaries, P.D. and W.M.: ... N: Vision is a translation of vipassanaa. He, endowed with energy, develops vipassanaa and then reaches the highest fruit. *** Remarks: also before the Buddha's teaching people developed anapanasati and attained jhana. The Buddha taught anapanasati in an unique way: he taught it as part of mindfulness of the body so that the truth of anatta could be realized. The bhikkhu should be mindful of whatever reality appears also when applying himself to anapanasati. When he attains jhana he should be mindful of nama and rupa and develop insight so that he can reach arahatship. Nina. 46703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Sarah, op 17-06-2005 10:35 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > On tender insight and so on. As you mentioned, of course there is > thinking in between the arising of panna. When the insights are no longer > ‘tender’, there is still thinking in between, but no doubt about it being > thinking and understanding of it as nama. N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt that thinking about realities is a nama-element. I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the Sammaa-ditthi sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): Nina. 46704 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Joop) - Howard: As I see it, there is no "emptiness" to enter. There is no such dhamma. There is what there is, and it is all empty (anatta). With the onset of full awakening, the empty nature of all dhammas is evident. All conditioned dhammas arise, not as separate, self-existent entities, however, but as contingent, dependent, and fleeting conditions that are momentary facets of an indescribable but quite real, diamond suchness called 'nibbana dhatu'. Tep: I remember having discussed several times what existence means with you. When I talk about 'existence' I always use the conventional language. Existing things can be sensed or identified; emptiness is the opposite to existence. Using such a simple description, the term 'existence' is not complicated to me. However, when you describe it to me, suddenly it becomes a "higher level" philosophy and the meaning you are trying to convey eludes me. BTW: Does anatta mean empty? ------------------------------------- Howard (referring to the Sutra which states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, ...) : Yes. These do not exist as real, separate, self-existent entities. The Perfection of Wisdom suttas use 'existence' to mean "substantial, independent existence", and they use 'nonexistence' to mean "nihilistic nonexistence " or "complete nothingness". These are extremes. What these suttas countenance as real is the middle-way sort of existence offered by the Buddha in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. Tep: When I said : "Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear?", I was talking about the impermanent states of mind and of other dhammas -- they are impermanent because they are caused by conditions (paccayas) that are, by their very nature, inconstant and impermanent. Of course all dhammas (including mind) are anatta - in the sense of the Anattalakkhana Sutta. And we also recall from other suttas that the views on existence of self (atta) and non-existence of self are two extremes and must be avoided. The anatta principle is the right view, the middle way that avoids the extremes (Note: non-existence of self is not anatta). ----------------------------------------------- >Tep: Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how >could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. Tep: Do you mean that all conditioned, contingent, dependent dhammas exist? Do you define "existence" dependently on self (atta)? It is good for us to sort things out once and for all. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > 46705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. nilovg Hi Howard and Joop, I became very curious about this sutta and I am glad to have read it. I am grateful for Howard's explanations. I sense that when reading it, it is so easy to misunderstand the text. When I hear the word emptiness I tend to think of anattaa. Howard, you said this sutta means a lot to you. In what way do you find it helpful? Nina. op 17-06-2005 16:54 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA > "Heart Sutra" > The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect > Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally > empty. 46706 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I remember having discussed several times what existence means with you. When I talk about 'existence' I always use the conventional language. Existing things can be sensed or identified; emptiness is the opposite to existence. Using such a simple description, the term 'existence' is not complicated to me. However, when you describe it to me, suddenly it becomes a "higher level" philosophy and the meaning you are trying to convey eludes me. BTW: Does anatta mean empty? ======================== No, as I understand it, emptiness is not the opposite of existence - nonexistence is. Emptiness is the absence of self or own-being or independent being, and that is the nature of all conditioned dhammas. Anatta = su~n~na = "empty of a core of self-sufficiency or separate, independent existence." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46707 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi again, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. Tep: Do you mean that all conditioned, contingent, dependent dhammas exist? Do you define "existence" dependently on self (atta)? ===================== I don't understand what you are asking here. All sankhata dhammas exist momentarily, but their existence is a dependent, contingent existence, not an absolute, independent self-existence. As regards the question of whether I define existence as dependent on self, I'm not at all sure I get what you are asking. The sort of existence that is a substantial, independent self-existence is a fiction. It is a false extreme. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46708 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Joop) - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:10:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Joop, I became very curious about this sutta and I am glad to have read it. I am grateful for Howard's explanations. I sense that when reading it, it is so easy to misunderstand the text. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It certainly is. Maybe that's why the Zen folks like it so much!! ;-)) I think that this sutta is impossible to understand unless there is the realization that the existence and nonexistence referred to are extremes and are fictions to be refuted. ----------------------------------------- When I hear the word emptiness I tend to think of anattaa. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is exactly correct. The Mahayanists, however, put particular emphasis on the intimate relationship between not-self/no-self and dependent origination. --------------------------------------- Howard, you said this sutta means a lot to you. In what way do you find it helpful? -------------------------------------- Howard: It enables me to more clearly grasp the special way in which phenomena actually exist. This sutta presents, in a different manner, the same teaching as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, a favorite of mine, which says that "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence." And it also states "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle ...," and then goes on to give the standard formulation of dependent origination. ------------------------------------------------ Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46709 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers Hallo Joop, I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, Sun Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe I can include the Eightfold Path as well?] I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to behave if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of information here. Just a thought...Letting go of concepts hurts they are held by me to be so dear as to be self and to let go of them would seem as if I am dying. To die this death would be to die throughly I think. That's what it felt like sometimes walking away from old habits and long held beliefs while sitting in meditation and also working in daily life. "Door in the Sky: Coomarswamy on Myth and Meaning by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy (ISBN: 0691017476. I study Myth, it helps my paintings and also helps me understand what the old masters are talking about sometimes in the old Buddhist text. The Golden door has many different symbols usually it is linked with the World-tree in which the trunk, which is also the Sunpillar, sacrificial post, and axis mundi, rising from the altar at the navel of the earth, penetrates the World-door and the branches out above the roof of the world (ti.s.thaty uttra.m diva.h, as the "nonexistent, unmanifested branch that younder kin dreds know as the supernal" (Jama's supalaa`sa, the a`svattha of). This conception is directly reflected in the form of the hypaethral tree-temples which in India were originally Yak.sa holy steads and subsequently Buddhist temples; in all these rukkha-cetiyas and bodhi-gharas the sacred tree rises through the open temple roof and branches above it, an arrangement that is not in any way uniquely Indian. "One should stand aloof from intention, from concepts, and from the conceit of 'self.' This is the mark of liberation (moksa). This is the track, here and now, the leads to Brahman, This is the 'opening of the door.' Here and now. By it one reaches the farther shore of this darkness. Here, indeed, is the 'consummation of all desires.'. . . There is no attainment of the goal by a bypath here in this world. This is the road to Brahman here and now. Breaking through the "Whosoever is uttering 'I' and 'we' at the door, he is turned back from the door and is continuing in not. By Rumi: A certain man came and knocked at the friend's door: his friend asked him, 'Who art though, O trusty one?' He answered, 'I.' The friend said 'Begone,' Save the fire of absence and separation, who will cook that raw one? The wretched man went away, and for a year in travel and separation he was burned with sparks of fire. That burned one was cooked…He knocked at the door….His friend called to him, 'Who is at the door?' He answered, 'Tis though art at the door, O charmer of hearts.' 'Now,' said the friend, 'since though art I, come in, O myself: There is not room in the hourse for two "I"s. The double end of the thread is not for the needle: inasmuch as though art single, come into (the eye of) this needle. . . . Tis the thread that is connected with the needle: the eye of the needle is not suitable for the camel.' (To me 'cooking' means truly understanding and letting go of 'I', mine and other the letting go can burn if I can go by my own experience and I am guessing the camel is the thought that this is me, I, mine) Mysterium magnum, that is cannot be communicated, but only realized: All that can be communicated are its external supports or symbolic expressions; the Great Work must be done by everyone for himself. The principle of the open hand (varada mudraa) or expository hand (vyaakhyaana mudraa). The Buddha is never ineloquent: the solar gates are not there to exclude, but to admit; no one can be excluded by anyone but himself. The way has been charted in detail by every Forerunner, who is the Way; what lies at the end of the road is not revealed, even by those who have reached it, because it cannot be told and does not appear: The principle is not in any likeness. (there are citations given in the book on where exactly A.K.C gets this information he does not stick to the Nikaya text as you can see) As the Buddha said, quoted by Coomaraswamy: I teach as does the master painter or his pupil who disposes his colors for the sake of a picture, which picture is not to be found in colors, nor in the ground, nor in the environment. It is only to make it attractive to creatures that the picture is contrived in color; what is literally taught is impertinent; the Principle eludes the letter. In taking up a stand amongst things, what I really teach is the Principle as understood by the Contemplatives: a spiritual reversion evading every form of thought. What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be taught cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra II.112- 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from the Lankavatara Sutra. With metta, Lisa >A question, because english is not my native >language: what do you mean with "you might >get your tail nipped off"? I first readed >"your nails cut" ('cut' is 'knipped' in dutch) >which sounds as a nice - but strange - wish. > > Metta > Joop > > ..... > > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" > >was through the door of non-duality, gotta be quick > >going through that door it will close on you if you > > think what ever your thinking is reality as it is > >and you might get your tail nipped > > off....ouch....;) > > > > With Metta, > > Lisa 46710 From: "frank" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:25pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, I like your commentary. However, I think this section could use some more clarification: ---------------------------------- [excerpt from heart sutra] Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. ------------------------------------------- Howard: From the perspective of emptiness none of these exist as separate, independent entities or events. ------------------------------------------ Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... -fk 46711 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. lbidd2 Hi Howard, This sutra would make perfect sense to a Theravadin if it were talking about concepts. Larry 46712 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Heart Sutra, a better trans. lbidd2 Hi all, Here's a better translation of the Heart Sutra: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html Larry 46713 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 balancing_life Hi Sarah & All I am sorry to hear of the suicide of your sister-in-law's, sister...well, it takes one to know one...its the living who is suffering, the effects or the aftermath. Actually, i was quite deep into depression, until somebody, told me that maybe she is better off dead (considering best friends do not play a prank on you) or off to a better reincarnation...whilst we are now living in this Samsara Land...well, that comforted me a lot, cos if not for her misery, she wouldn't have jumped. The one i pity most is her father, who loves her the most, as she is intectually able to communicate with him as an adult, and not a child and he only can be himself, with her around...no pretences. He loved her so much, that he gave her everything she asked for and her hobby is reading and listening to S Club 7 (i get depressed, when i hear their songs on the radio) In fact, her father asked me to go to the furniture shop to buy a bookshelf, just to keep all her reading books...like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc, and many others until the whole bookshelf is full...now it's gathering dust, cos her sister taste/hobbies, are entirely different from hers. But, all the while that i took her & my father shopping, both of them never asked me to buy anything for them...they were both very well behaved and both of them helped both my father and auntie (as my father remarried after my mums death when i was 19 years old and she is quite blind in one eye) around, when going shopping, as my father is in his 80's and quite doddering now, with his walking stick. Last time, when they used to stay with me during the Friday nites, they insisted on sharing my king-sized bed and the eldest would tell me ghost stories, while the youngest would sing Mandarin songs for me to hear before sleeping...then on Saturday mornings, i would take them to McDonalds to have the Big Breakfast, before taking them to see their grandparents. Later on, when she reached primary/standard six, there were a special exam, which determines which secondary school the eldest would go to and so the school had special tution on Saturday mornings, so instead of taking them from their mum's home on Friday nites, i would take the youngest one with me to the school on Saturday morning and wait until the tuition was over and when i suggested taking them to the McDonalds or KFC, they said they would prefer to have lunch with their grandparents...see how filial they are? Once safely, inside my car, both of them will be soothed to sleep, by the soothing voice of The Carpenters, or sometimes singing along, as it takes almost an hour to drive to my father's home. Then unfortunately, i read in a Mahayana's book, that those who died in accidents or those who committed suicide cannot be reincarnated until someone else takes their place...but then again, who knows, as Lord Buddha has told us, that not to believe anything that anybody said. Yes, Lord Buddha's teachings have taught me a lot...that suffering is envitable...that nothing is permanent and everything is only temporary...so we have to live in the NOW, as Ekhart Tolle has found out for himself. (or in other words, to be mindful or live in that moment only, for tomorrow may never come.) Well, her death has taught me never to take anything or anyone for granted...i thought i would one day wind up in the old folks home and she and her sister with their families would bring me "goodies", when they come to visit me, but unfortunately, that dream is gone...as Chinese proverb says, "The coffin only contains dead people, not old people". Oh, don't worry about me not having any Buddhism books to read, as i go to collect from each Temple, every Wesak Day, (except for this year) and i have more than 50 books, still unread. :} The reason i am more into Theraveda than in Mahayana, (although to me, whatever the sects are, they are the same, except maybe in diffent customs and traditions and all i am doing is only following Lord Buddha's teachings), is because i am English educated, whereas the Mahayana books are mostly printed in Mandarin here. You are rite, Sarah, i have learnt to let go, but as i have said before yesterday, i am into a real turmoil now, which is beyond my control and i can only solace myself, that i have used up all my good Karma and is now reaping the bad. Well, i can't control my past lives, but i can at least hopefully do some good in this life, so that is one of the reason, why i am sharing this e-correspondence with all of you...as i do not have much money to donate and do not have the time to do charity...as i am a home person and except for during working days, i prefer the silence of my home, whom i named my "Sanctuary", although eventually i know i have to move from here, sooner or later. I apologise for rambling here, as Lord Buddha taught us that there is "no self", "no body", "no I/myself" and "no ego", but i was just so sad that my niece had passed away, and i always thought, being so intelligent as she was, it was such a waste, and i always thought, she would succeed in my brother's business...i would have gladly traded my life for us, if only i could do so. Gotto go... :} AliceStillUnfortunatelyInRegretsLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Alice, Thank you very much for your introduction and answers to my questions. I'll look forward to the second installment. I'm very sorry to hear about the tragedy of your niece. Thank you for sharing with us. <.....> 46714 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:04am Subject: THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol balancing_life Yes, when at first a man takes alcohol/liquor, either for social or otherwise (some to escape from their sufferings or problems), he will at first lose his inhibitions and become someone else and not being his usual self, perhaps being more daring and braver...also he will lose his concentration and also his awareness and surroundings. It's like smoking a cigarette and you get high...or in my case, at one time when i couldn't go to sleep after my niece's death, i took Shandy instead of Beer, cos beer would make my head spin and also my face all red and i dislike the taste also...very sensitive to that stuff...anyway, it helped me to sleep and later on, i realised, that i shouldn't be doing this and so i stopped, but it was too late...i gained several pounds or sorta beer belly after that...lol. After taking alcohol or liquor, many drivers either drove themselves to death or hurt other innocent bystanders or other motorists by knocking them down, although not intentionally, but it's b'cos they are drunk and have lost consciousness. There was another case in our country in KL, whereby, a man who was drunk was angry (road rage) at a motorist in front of him (maybe just for driving too slow) and shot her to death, without any notice. Actually, guns are not legalized in Malaysia, but some VIPs or someone who are in the high position, can get them. And the irony of that incident was that women who got shot, usually did not travel that road as she will use another road to shuttle her friend home, but unfortunately, on that day, her friend fell sick, and so she headed straight for home. Well, i guess that is fated, and there is no escape from certain death. I had an internet friend from the USA, from another yahoo-group (not Buddhism) and he told me that he felt so hopeless, after a drunk driver crashed into him and rendered him useless, as now he cannot use his legs, and have to move along in a wheel-chair. As we know, medically, alcohol/liquor will eventually harden your liver and perhaps will eventually lead to liver cancer, as well. Also, i have had friends who sent me pictures/photos of people who are drunk and had being "decorated" with grafitti on their faces and bodies by their buddies, some sprawled away in the bathrooms or sofas, naked and they are not even aware of it and also of women being raped after getting drunk, as they were slept so soundly, that nothing could wake them up. And the worst is getting a hangover, after having too many drinks. In Malaysia, (maybe it originated from India as most Indians drink them), there is a locally made alcohol/liquor called "Toddy/Toddi" and it's very popular with the poor as it is very much cheaper than the usual liquor, which they could not afford, as most of them who drink them are labourers, but i heard it's very addictive and even more powerful that the normal liquor. Usually, i stay away from smokers (as i can't even breathe when a smoker is around and i could even smell them first, even before i see them or i could still smell the cigarette smoke on their bodies, even if they are not smoking at the moment) and also drinkers...it is a no- no to me. BTW, second hand smoke is even more cancerous to the lungs, than the person smoking it. Sarah, if you do not mind, could you tell us, how liquor took away your father's life? :} AliceInCuriosityWillKillTheCatLand A:> What do you understand of this: > "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." > When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads > from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor > takes away the life of the man. ... S: I agree with it. It's just how I see the danger of drink. It's habit forming and makes it more likely that all kinds of akusala (unwholesome deeds) will occur. Liquor really took away my father's life in this way. How about you? What are your comments? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- THE 5TH PRECEPT: "I undertake to observe the precept to refrain from taking intoxicants and liquor that causes heedlessness." REFRAINING FROM INTOXICANTS Intoxicants here refer to all types of liquors, spirits and drugs, including fermented liquors from flour, cakes, cooked rice, yeast and fruits (e.g. grapes); spirits taken from flowers, fruits, honey, sugar and mixed ingredients and drugs like opium, marijuana, heroin, LSD, etc. This precept is broken when all the following 4 conditions are present: i) that which is either liquor, spirit or drug; ii) have the wish to take it; iii) the act of taking it; iv) being intoxicated. Breaking this precept, if heavy and done frequently, leads to the Woeful states after death; if only lightly, it may lead to madness. a) The Social Drinker If we look over the conditions of breaking the precept carefully, we will notice that the fourth condition of being intoxicated or drunk must also be present. This clearly shows that the precept is not that rigid, as it appears to sound like. Only we ourselves can really know our own limits when it comes to drinking. It is solely our responsibility to decide when enough is enough - nobody else can really force us to postpone our limit to another's limit. Thus the social drinker who drinks only on social occasions and who is not addicted nor particularly drawn to liquors and spirits does not break the precept so long as he does not get himself tipsy or intoxicated. However it is always wise to keep away from such drinks as far as we can - for who knows if we can or will not get addicted to or develop a liking for them? One should especially be wary of the company that one keeps on such social occasions because more often than not, it is the company that exercise the greatest influence on one's attitude towards drinks, and unless one is a strong-willed person, one is likely to succumb to the challenges, teases and mocking which follow one's refusal to drink. b) The Boozer Every occasion that the boozer takes to drinks and gets himself tipsy or drunk, he is breaking the precept. If he is only slightly tipsy, the precept is lightly broken; if he is violently drunk, or is intoxicated to such an extent that he verbally abuses or causes inconvenience and much trouble to others the precept has been heavily broken. If the addicted boozer does not put a stop to his alcoholic cravings he is surely bound for the woeful states even in this very life, not to mention the next. c) The Sick Sometimes alcohol, spirits and liquors may have to be used in mixtures as medicines for certain kinds of ailments. In such cases, even if the sick person becomes intoxicated by taking the medicine, it cannot be helped, if it is believed that the medicine will help to cure the illness. But strictly speaking, if the sick person wishes to drink it (or take it, as the case may be), and gets intoxicated by taking it, he is breaking the precept. In such a case, since it is through necessity rather than craving, the precepts is only lightly broken and the person will not be led to the Woeful States as a result of this action. The same principle should also be understood to apply to the use of drugs as medicines for the curing or for the relief of the sick. d) The Drug Taker All types of drugs, stimulants, depresses and sedative should not be misused, i.e. taken not out of necessity, but for fun of for `kick'. As far as possible, even when confronted with such problems like insomnia, or depression and other emotional or psychological problems, one should try ones best to refrain from resorting to any kind of drugs. If we are strong enough we should be able to endure. If not accept them for what they are: temporary states of mind, which have arisen, and which, eventually, MUST fall away. But if we are not, more often than not a sympathetic pair of ears can give a great deal of help - so seek out a good friend who is also a good and sympathetic listener and let him help us lessen the load on our shoulders. Special Importance of the 5th Precept Usually, when this precept is broken, all the other precepts are also bound to be broken. This is because when a person breaks the 5th precept, i.e. he becomes intoxicated (drunk or high as the case may be), and there is no telling what he can do. His inhibitions have all been shed, he is no longer in control of his senses, and, not being able to discern between what is beneficial and what is harmful, he is liable to be given to violence, even to kill; to steal, or to destroy others' property; to become sexually aggressive and dangerous; and to lie, slander, and be given to abusive behaviour - thus tremendously increasing the likelihood of breaking the rest of the other 4 precepts. It is therefore important to appreciate the special significance of the precept, which has been so aptly phrased: "To refrain from distilled and fermented intoxicants WHICH ARE THE OCCASION FOR CARELESSNESS" 46715 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways ksheri3 Hi Lisa, Okay, let me put my RIGHT TO BE WRONG, my IGNORANCE, out there as a predetermining factor here about the Middle Path, Way, Pillar, etc. From what I've read on my first reading of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha I have an inkling that this middle path is folly, just as ignorant and self-centered as either the dreaded Left Hand Path (possibly in this case the Vajrana) or the Right Hand Path (probably the Theravadan view, model) As you say the door opens for a second and it's either through the door in a heart beat or it's indecision time, second guessing, waffling, flip-flopping, while the door closes. This, friends, is a healthy way to view the situation of Nibbana but it comes on the Left, the Right, the Middle. Nibbana is a culmination similar to the Crown Chakra of the Hindu and their Kamma Sutta or is it Sutra? Nevertheless, I know, since I've practiced this since 1980 although not using the hindu or tibetan terminology and definitions. Now that I can define it better, speak of it easier, concentrate better, attempt what other's have attempted as a means to an end, etc, I am in a better position. The Kamma Sutta I feel is designed for the aspirant that has perfected the uniting of the Shiva & Shakti or in our terminology the middle path is designed for the aspirant that will not committ to either the Left or the Right seeking to RAISE CONSCIOUSNESS in upekkha, equinimity,indifference, calm. I don't see how that can possibly be accomplished with all of the termoils which will confront the aspirant thus taking the aspirant out of upekkha, equinimity. The concentration required would be tremendous and I don't think it's possible, yet I can be wrong and make incorrect choices. I do not believe the "DOOR" is non-duality I think the door would be a javana (consciousness) or jhana,(?). I don't have all the definitions with me right now at the library. Once going thru the door however I know that the proper environment is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT since, for myself, the flash of illumination is so intense and quick that I like my room, door closed, window open, low light, laying on my bed where I can freely allow my meditation to flow without hinderance(s). After the meditation then it's consideration of the realizations I've made where they are right and wrong, etc. Oh, it takes me several hours every nite and I do not like being disturbed however with my roommates they know that there's so much they can impose upon me at one time. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Joop, hallo everyone... >>snip>> > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of > non-duality, > gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you > think what ever your > thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped > off....ouch....;) colette: no question. Sorry ya can't sit on the fence and play Mr. In- Between. I would imagine that there's a built in defense mechanism where if ya keep knocking on the door of Nibbana and never entering then the aspirant would be manifesting their own negation of self by their own False Aspiration. That may be worse then getting the ole tail nipped off huh? toodles, colette 46716 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... ========================= They are no different from all the rest of those things that are real, but not substantially and independently existing. They are all empty, but not nonexistent. Nagarjuna went so far as to teach the emptiness of emptiness! Of course, all this sort of talk is a kind of "shock therapy" I think. In part, it is like a Zen koan whose purpose is, I believe, to force one to give up on conceptualization, and just "look". (As the Zen folks say with regard to nirvana: "Look! Look!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46717 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:30:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, This sutra would make perfect sense to a Theravadin if it were talking about concepts. Larry ========================== Yes, indeed it would. It also makes sense to *this* Theravadin even with respect to paramattha dhammas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46718 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Dear Lisa, Again, I enjoyed reading your post very much. I have just interspersed a few snippets here and there, and snipped a bit :-) > L: Sometimes I just don't know what to say to some things here on this > board, so I don't say anything which can seem rude I am sure. == Oh, well, I'm sure whoever thinks that will eventually get over it :-) == > Most of the time I stop commenting because I'm confused and I let go > of it for a bit and wait to see if anything comes up. Most of the > time nothing comes up and I just let it go and have to wait. == Yeah, I do the same. And if I am reading a post and something comes up immediately, I tend to wait as well. There's nothing quite as deceptive as my own brilliant powers of reasoning :-) == > >H: There are a number of different kinds of knowing. > > > > There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a > > very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire > > knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. > > > L: Cut a little bit out but you don't scribble, you write very > well and I kept my favorite parts, hope you don't mind. > > == Not at all. And thanks for the compliment. == > > I looked up knowledge in one of my reference books, > "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge" by K.N. Jayatilleke. > Well I must say that every civilization that I've read > about has sooo many theories on knowledge, who knows it, how it is > known, what it is and so on....wow > > Absolute, authoritative, cogitative, intuitive, higher, lower, > three-fold, five-fold, more development and salvation, indirect, > inductive and inferential as well, there is infinite, and insight > and also the instrument of intuiting ultimate reality, now that > looks interesting. 417....goes to that page[] > Chapter IX "The Means and Limits of Knowledge." Let me see if I > find anything that picks up the first interest I saw that stirred when > I was going through the index ( I just love a well done index; don't > you?). == One day I'd like to do an index to an index :-) == > My question is if you're not wise how will you know wisdom > when you met it in self or other? For me it doesn't hurt as > badly as ignorance lol, that is wisdom when I see it does not bring > the pain that ignorance does. (hahahah) == Makes sense to me. == > > Personal and direct knowledge is what attracted me to the teachings > of Gotama, "Come and see for yourself." Gotama was not a closed > fisted teacher and that is why I have stayed sitting as quietly as > I can staying aware and mindful just incase Buddha decides to visit > my town or even my heart. I would like to be able to see him like > the guy in my favorite Sutta MN 77. But as soon as I go down > the knowledge street I find the house of truth and there are > many houses built from truth all of different shapes and sizes. > The many theories of truth really do give me a headache... == There is just no end to it, trying to think one's way out of trouble. Of course, there's also the option of not thinking. Which is my favoured method of coping. I'm going to be really pissed off if I don't eventually fade away remainderlessly and be done with it all :-) == > > I think I will stick with knowledge for a moment and look at duality > when I look at something even myself I see an object how > can I truly know myself if I see me as an object. How can > something be a subject and an object at the same time? There I am > back to reality as being of itself and no other and having this > knowledge of reality I get really mixed up! How can I have > knowledge of reality and and also be the subject of that > knowledge, which I've been told can never be known since it > is never the object and I can't know the knower of the knowing > (na jijnatervij~naataaram vijaaniiyaah). Logic and reason can be > used to tell the truth or tell a lie but I know that truth on a > relative level is always dependent on something else to be and > can never be in and of itself and is not truth as it is. == I agree. I like to differentiate between what is real and what is true/false/meaningless. Like you say, the latter is relational and knowing what is true/false/meaningless is of no salvatory value in the long run, even though it's an improvement on being mistaken or ignorant about stuff. Logic and codependent origination cannot determine the validity of individual premises that are related together. It's the same algorithm as with computers, if rubbish in, then rubbish out. It is my hunch that reality is what the world looks like when nothing is related to nothing. == > > Well I guess I could go on writing about knowledge (and drift of into > what truth is as well) for the rest of my life but I haveto build an > excel file for my bosses billing system...formula's are > so fun! And to think some people believe that mathmatical formulas > can express reality as it isl....of course I may sound a bitter > because math isn't my strong point...lol...I am very spatial...lol > == Thanks for your very nice post and all the best to you Herman > With metta, > Lisa 46719 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi all I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for sure in which way he meant that. Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also anything from the commentaries on this? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46720 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Thanks! Dan "Dan D." wrote:Great question, Venky. There is no Self that "gains" an insight and no Self in which to store it once it arises. It simply arises and passes away in a moment. However, there will be memory of insight. The memory may be very weak. It might not even strong enough to evoke conceptualization about it or a description of it -- beneath the radar, so to speak. Or the insight may be so strong and so deep as to eradicate all tendency for future defilements. In that case too, the moment of insight is gone in a flash, but its effect is strong enough that all future consciousness is affected because there are no longer any conditions for taints to arise. Dan <...> 46721 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Not Yours ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Ownerless & Transient Effects of prior Conditions: This body is neither yours, nor anybody else's. These feelings are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These perceptions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These mental constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These verbal constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These bodily constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. This consciousness is neither yours, nor anybody else's. They are results of old kamma, prior actions, something to be seen as generated and shaped by accumulations of past intention, emerging to be sensed now... When this exists, that comes to be! With the arising of this, that arises! When this does not exist, that does not come to be! When this ceases, that ceases too! That is: The fading away of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to cease. The fading away of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to cease. The fading away of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to cease. The fading away of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to cease. The fading away of The 6 Senses causes Contact to cease. The fading away of Contact causes Feeling to cease. The fading away of Feeling causes Craving to cease. The fading away of Craving causes Clinging to cease. The fading away of Clinging causes Becoming to cease. The fading away of Becoming causes Birth to cease. The fading away of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to cease. The fading away of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to cease... Such is the ceasing of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 65 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46722 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > ============================ > Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I > want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! My unrequested advice > to you, and I mean it very, very sincerely and emphatically, is to please spend > as much time with your mother now while a degree of clarity remains in her, > and permit yourself to love both your folks with all your heart and soul and to > unmistakenly express your love to them. The Buddha said that what we owe to > our parents is beyond measure. I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding loving your parents with all your heart and expressing that love unmistakenly. I do have a problem with the Buddha's statement regarding our debt to our parents. My position is nicely captured in the following ditty by Philip Larkin They f&$k you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were f&$cked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don't have any kids yourself. For me, the act with the most far-reaching consequences any being is capable of is to reproduce. But realistically, by launching their progeny into the unknown, parents hand onto their offspring a poisoned chalice the nature of which they are ignorant. I also have a more than slight problem with the Buddha's version of parenting. Like Sangamaji (Udana 1.8), he was a psychologically absent parent. The psychologically absent parent/carer sets up their infant for a life of depression and premature and psychologically tortured death. If in doubt, research what happens to orphaned babies who do not receive the milk of human kindness. It is not exactly a stroke of penetrating insight to pretend that the consequences of one's actions and responsibilities extend only to oneself. No child is born without the actions of at least two beings. Walking away from your progeny sometime after coitus merely expands the cycle of samsara, regardless of just how blissful personal ignorance of it appears. An infant with a psychologically absent parent/carer learns very quickly that there is no agency i.e. they are powerless to influence the course of events, and act accordingly. In Buddhist terms, they would be arahants. In human terms, they are dysfunctional, tortured wrecks. In closing, those beings who consciously choose to not reproduce show enormous insight and wisdom, in my books. My gratitude and respect goes out to them. Not to say that I am judgemental of those who have children, be that by choice or by accident. After all, I am amongst them. Kind Regards Herman You will be very, very happy that you have not > missed this opportunity to be with them and to show your love to them. I'm very > sorry for the upset that this must cause for your folks and for yourself. > > With metta, > Howard > 46723 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I was startled by the hour, up at threethirty, and hope that you get > enough > sleep. ... S: Sorry for startling you ....I was woken early by a fierce storm outside, so checked the list as I got up for a short while and then went back to bed. Plenty of sleep now I'm not teaching:)). ... > I realize that editing the tapes is a lot of work, but many people can > profit of it. I am also busy copying them for myself. > With appreciation, ... S: Thank you for this. It's no trouble at all -- a pleasure. It fits in just when we have bits of free time. Much of the work is getting used to the technical side (we're real learners)...all v.experimental at the moment. Yes, I think many ppl can benefit. Nina, no need for you to copy by yourself. We'll send you an mp3 this week as it's difficult for you to download. The edited Sri Lanka 02 is about to be put on dhammastudygroup.org too, so I'll send this as well. I think we sent India 01 already. If anyone else has trouble downloading and would like an mp3, pls let me know (off-list with yr address in a 'cut and paste' form and indication of which recording you want -- I forget who I've sent what to). Metta, Sarah ========= 46724 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:44am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 225 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Akusala cittas are accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars”, but not all particulars accompany every akusala citta. When the universals and the particulars accompany akusala citta they are also akusala. There are fourteen akusala cetasikas which can accompany only akusala citta, but not all akusala cetasikas accompany each akusala citta. Some akusala cetasikas accompany only certain types of akusala cittas. There are twelve types of akusala citta, but there are many more varieties of them since they are, at one time or other, accompanied by different cetasikas. Moreover, akusala cittas can have many different degrees of akusala. Akusala citta may or may not have the intensity to motivate an unwholesome deed, akusala kamma patha. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46725 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Dear Sarah, I am very happy to see that you remain capable of putting a human story together. There is hope for us all :-) Cheers Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil, (Howard, Colette & all), > > A few more reflections - no need to respond unless it's helpful for you to > do so. > > --- Philip wrote: > > > As for the Alzheimer's, > .... > S: I once asked K.Sujin about the development of awareness if one has such > a condition and her response was along the lines of 'it's not Alzheimer's > all the time'. Different moments again. I also think of her comments when > someone mentions a diagnosis of 'cancer' or something else and she says > 'it's just a word or a label'. > > Again it sounds like a cold shower and can even seem shocking in the > circumstances. But isn't it true that we hear a diagnosis and then have > such long, long stories about it when we really have no idea what is in > store for us at any moment? Sometimes it is the anguish on account of the > diagnosis that causes the main problems as we've all discussed. > > Having written my other post and made these comments, I am keenly aware of > the difficulties that usually arise in families with Alzheimers's. Few > families are spared and I remember my grandmother's rapid decline and the > household difficulties only too well. > > Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with > your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, > when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's > commitments to be with one's parents physically. > > During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for > him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept > in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving > helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the > same extent. > > When I spoke to her the day before she died, she talked with so much joy > about how he'd been the greatest support and given the best assistance > imaginable over her last difficult years after her husband had died and > she became rather confused, emotional and very sick. He did visit for her > last birthday, but most the time she had to rest anyway. Then he got to > her bedside only just before she died, but there was no suggestion that > he'd arrived too late to help. > > The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how > she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional > worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in > your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. > I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good > guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it > goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. > > I know Jon would like to add more and he may do so at the weekend when he > has a little free time, Phil. He's lived abroad for almost his entire > adult life and discussed these points often with K.Sujin who never > suggests any particular action (as you heard in the discussion with the > Burmese man with the dying mother in Myanmar). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments > and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much > earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... > I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned > by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great > to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) > =========== 46726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, Tep, James, and others, op 18-06-2005 02:20 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for > sure in which way he meant that. > Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also > anything from the commentaries on this? ----------- N: Kindred Sayings I, 6, BrahmaSamyutta, i, Brahma's request. (In the B.B. edition, p. 231,232). I prefer here the PTS, that is just personal. The Brahma Sahampati entreats the Buddha to teach. The Buddha said about the Dhamma: We read that the Buddha was for a moment disinclined to teach Dhamma. The Co. adds it goes against the stream in its teaching of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa and non-beauty. I thought of your quote from the tape I read last night. I am not always ready to hear the truth of anatta, I had aversion. The reason is, that intellectually I follow it, but since it is not realized by insight, sometimes the wrong button is pushed. You spoke about Christine's loss of Rusty. We are not yet over the loss of my father, and I know that sadness is only a passing nama, but no insight that directly realizes it. Just thinking about it and this is not always helpful. Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like to hear that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. I was discussing with Lodewijk Tep's remark about Dhamma for beginners. Tep thinks that the difference between realities and concepts need not be stressed. It may be discouraging for beginners. Lodewijk said:'This difference is not immediately obvious, but gradually stage by stage one will understand. I found it difficult, but after reading Kh. Sujin's Realities and concepts (Survey of Paramattha Dhammas) it became clearer. It took a long time to sink in... The beginners should have patience, they should be humble and realize that they do not know much yet.' One should be humble and meek in order to appreciate the Truth of Dhamma, but there are not always conditions for humility and meekness. I would like James' opinion about the sutta of the Entreaty. He used to be active with a sutta thread and had good remarks. Now he is packing and going away, not sure he has time. Nina. 46727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you, you helped me to have more understanding of this sutta. Suan could also advise us if he has time. He moderates a Mahayana list. Nina. op 18-06-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: I think that this sutta is impossible to understand unless there is the > realization that the existence and nonexistence referred to are extremes and > are fictions to be refuted. 46728 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:01am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.5 : THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: Basic Paper 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODULE 2.5 : THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH The Noble Eightfold Path (Ariya Atthangika Magga), discovered by the Buddha Himself, is the only way to Nibbana. It avoids the extreme of self-mortification that weakens one's intellect, and the extreme of self-indulgence that retards one's spiritual progress. It consists of the following eight factors: - Right Understanding - Samma Ditthi Right Thoughts - Samma Sankappa Right Speech - Samma Vaca Right Action - Samma Kammanta Right Livelihood - Samma Ajiva Right Effort - Samma Vayama Right Mindfulness - Samma Sati Right Concentration - Samma Samadhi 1. Right Understanding is the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. Knowledge with regard to un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the origination of un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the stopping of un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of un-satisfactoriness. In other words it is the understanding of oneself as one really is. The keynote of Buddhism is this Right Understanding. Buddhism as such is based on knowledge and not on unreasonable belief. 2. Right thoughts are threefold. They are the Thoughts of Renunciation (Nekkhamma Sankappa), which are opposed to lustful desires. Benevolent Thoughts (Avyapada Sankappa), which are opposed to ill will, and Thoughts of Harmlessness (Avihimsa Sankappa), which are opposed to cruelty. These tend to purify the mind. 3. Right speech deals with refraining from falsehood, slandering, harsh words; and frivolous talks. Right speech is filled with the elements of Truth, Beneficial, Pleasant, Timely and Kind Heartedly. 4. Right Action deals with refraining from taking life, abstaining from stealing and abstaining from sexual intercourse (including abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness). The cultivation of Loving-kindness, Compassion, Generosity and Sense- restraint are in line with Right Action. 5. Right livelihood is how one keeps his life going with right living and abandoned dishonest livelihood. It deals with the five kinds of trades, which should be avoided by a lay disciple. They are trading in arms, trading of living beings (human beings or animals), trading in meat (including breeding animals for slaughter), trading intoxicants (drugs and liquor), and trading in poison. Hypocritical conduct is cited as wrong livelihood for monks. For the contemplatives such as the monks, Wrong livelihood also includes reading marks on the limbs [e.g., palmistry], placing spells on spirits, reciting house-protection charms, fortune telling based on visions and giving protective charms. 6. Right Effort is fourfold - namely, i. the endeavour to discard evil or un-skilful qualities that has already arisen, ii the endeavour to prevent the arising of un-risen evil or un- skilful qualities, iii the endeavour to develop un-risen good or skilful qualities, and iv the endeavour to promote that good or skilful qualities which has already arisen. 7. Right Mindfulness is also fourfold. It is the mindfulness or remains focused with regard to a. body, b. feelings / sensations, c. mind, and d. mental qualities, With ardent, aware, & mindful, one put away greed & distress with reference to the world. The above four is also named as the four great frames of reference - when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. The seven factors of awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. 8. Right Concentration is the one-pointedness of the mind. When one withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskilful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the jhana (a meditative state of deep sensitivity and stillness of mind, "absorption,"), one experienced rapture & pleasure (1st jhana), rapture & pleasure born of composure (2nd jhana), equanimity, mindful & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure (3rd jhana) and purely equanimity & mindfulness (4th jhana). <....> Questions Why Right Understanding is placed first among the others when in the order of development one begin with the sequence of Sila? One important point to note as compare to the teachings of other religion is the Buddha recommended beside avoiding evils and doing good, one need to purify one's mind. Why? Answers (Module 2.4) What do you learn from the Rohitassa Sutta? What is in this very one-fathom long body? The answer to the question of unsatisfactoriness in life can be discovered within one mind and body. Therefore one need to look more inwardly to realize the Truth and not only searching externally. If the cause of suffering is craving (tanha) then what is the cause of tanha? The "not knowing" (Ignorance) that things are impermanent and the clinging onto it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 46729 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:50am Subject: Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant Sarah, Here is the repost as you requested. Look forward to seeing your reply. <<<<< --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to > reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. > > Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I > might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be > welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? > And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a > bad rebirth in the immediate future.< > .... > S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I > think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are > referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the > Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. > > We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the > Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' > and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas > disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The > outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of > white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, > could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to > penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the > last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising > of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). > ... > > S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need > to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine > and the discipline'. > > The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward > signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after > the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant > discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, > relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very > 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' > you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we > really have a say in the matter. > > Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the > discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the > right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This > way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly > pursuits. Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). Once my friend arrived, I could again see how beings were related to their merit, and how worldly-oriented people generally make a lot of demerit (some exceptions yes). I had the ability, just prior to this, if I so chose, to walk away and pursue "deeds of merit," and feel very strongly that I was walking along the path. This creates some unease in me because since I was hospitalized after my intial experiences with Buddhism I feel I have been conditioned off that path, even off the discipline. So anyway, after a brief stop, my friend and I left the donut shop and headed for a corner with two benches. I kind of could have described to him, the dhamma, and about how I felt I was doing, or what I could do, for future lives, but yesterday I was not feeling like a leader, so I was engaged in some 'basic' interaction, which, to my prior state, felt like idle chatter, but to what came later in the day, was still self-discipline. It eventually deteriorated into full idle chatter as I provided no direction for the evening and I could see how terribly wasteful people are of merit. You might point out that dhamma can be practised during idle chatter, but the doctrine & the discipline involves speaking *on* the dhamma and the discipline, what is meaningful, and so on, this includes abstaining from idle chatter. So this is sort of what I mean by the discipline. I could have created a whole world of dhamma for myself, but I didn't. I came away instead with a few lessons: as dhammapada and sutta nipata say: Don't live with the company of foolish or bad men (who are headed for rebirth as a bird), try to be more independent and take my own direction through life, try to be mindful and not rack up large amounts of demerit (begin practising all types of right speech when circumstances present themselves), and, more immediately, try to find and read about doing deeds of merit. This is trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 future lives, thinking about how / if I will get future (consecutive) human lives, realizing the rarity of human birth among other beings who haven't the merit now gives us almost an obligation to carry out our practise on a straight path to the end. A righteous friend would be nice, I do not know if I can do the major work of this alone, but I can try, if I keep these points in mind, and think on the dhamma occasion to occasion, perhaps even trying to 'force it' less than I currently do. Yes, that was somewhat of an admission that I force practise, when sometimes the path just unfurls itself to me when I least expect it. I simply don't have any certainty. I would be open to feedback in this department if anyone would be so kind, open-minded if there are any new ideas presented that seem to accord with my past and potential future experiences. Perhaps it's all or none, that is, I should have told my friend what I was doing with myself from that point and left instead of letting it be nothing but a Dunkin Donuts trip and idle chatter going from bar to bar looking for one with the NBA Finals on TV (No drinking, just wanted to see the game ;) and idle chattering a-lot. I do find it difficult to speak on the dhamma, I'm not very articulate, perhaps because I sometimes read about it in an obsessive or addictive way. so that takes away, but still, I should be able to salvage something. Anyway, hope this provides a glimpse for others on the list for what I was talking about when I mention discipline and clear up the ideas I shared with Sarah previously off the list. G.l., A.L. >>>> 46730 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Nina, and all > N: Kindred Sayings I, 6, BrahmaSamyutta, i, Brahma's request. (In the B.B. > edition, p. 231,232). I prefer here the PTS, that is just personal. The > Brahma Sahampati entreats the Buddha to teach. The Buddha said about the > Dhamma: > Deep. subtle, fine, and hard to see, > Unseen 't will be by passion's slaves, > Cloaked in the murk [of ignorance].> > > We read that the Buddha was for a moment disinclined to teach Dhamma. > The Co. adds it goes against the stream in its teaching of impermanence, > dukkha, anattaa and non-beauty. Ph: Thanks. Now the cloak of ignorance is thicker than it was in his day. We have to be very patient. Some would say no, the more ignorance there is, the more urgency we should feel to penetrate it. But it can't work that way. > > I thought of your quote from the tape I read last night. I am not always > ready to hear the truth of anatta, I had aversion. The reason is, that > intellectually I follow it, but since it is not realized by insight, > sometimes the wrong button is pushed. Ph: Yes, it's interesting and I think a good demonstration that we are always different people, moment by moment, let alone day by day or however long it is between hearing a certain talk. Sometimes when I hear those kind of teachings I have aversion, but usually find them very refreshing. (Like a cold shower....maybe cool shower is the way it feels.) Also I think I was right to question why on earth I can feel a positive response to it when my insight is so undeveloped. There may be accumulations, perhaps the same accumulations that made me respond with such fervour when I came across Abhidhamma, though for years I had this or that "spiritual" book and never felt the same certainty that I had come across the truth. On the other hand, as I said, it could be a kind of escape mechanism, a coping mechanism. This is one of the astute things James has suggested to me in the past and he could be right. > You spoke about Christine's loss of Rusty. We are not yet over the loss of > my father, and I know that sadness is only a passing nama, but no insight > that directly realizes it. Just thinking about it and this is not always > helpful. > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like to hear > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. Ph: For most people there is not even "not liking" the teaching, because they just scoff and laugh at it. For there to be not-liking it, maybe there must be a sense of being challenged by it, beginning to recognize it's truth. So the not liking it could be a good sign, the beginning of waking up to the truth. People who have no accumulations whatsoever to understand that there is no Nina, no Lodewijk will not hear the teaching deeply enough to even dislike it. > I was discussing with Lodewijk Tep's remark about Dhamma for beginners. Tep > thinks that the difference between realities and concepts need not be > stressed. It may be discouraging for beginners. Ph: Yes. When I met Rob K at the airport I remember I said to him that I thought it might be good to teach soft and comfy Dhamma, the kind Thich Nhat Hahn teaches, for example, to make people feel welcome, to get them in the door, so to speak, so they could eventually come to the true Dhamma. Rob said why not get right at the true Dhamma. These days I tend to think he's right, though I might feel differently at other times. If people get attached to false Dhamma, to wrong understanding, the roots get so deep. This lifetime is so rare, this chance to hear the true Dhamma, the Buddha's teaching. Thus the need to stress anatta, which is the only thing that sets the Buddha apart from spiritual teachers. We must stress anatta. That's what I really like about that quote - anything that moves us toward better understanding anatta. But that goes against the way of the world, especially in the West, where there is such an emphasis on self-identity, on making something of our lives, to be great people, unique people, accomplished people. As Kh Sujin said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. > > Lodewijk said:'This difference is not immediately obvious, but gradually > stage by stage one will understand. I found it difficult, but after reading > Kh. Sujin's Realities and concepts (Survey of Paramattha Dhammas) it became > clearer. It took a long time to sink in... The beginners should have > patience, they should be humble and realize that they do not know much yet.' Ph: That is a rare commodity. Well, I think it is fairly common for people to know that they do not know, but less common for them to understand that they *cannot* know by just pressing ahead and following a teacher's rules of practice, a method. As Christine said in a talk, in the West there is the thinking that if we follow a method, practice in a certain way, we can get our certificate, so to speak. "By this time next spring I will be X or Y." It doesn't work that way. It's all lobha. As Kh Sujin says, "it is impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Or vijja cannot come from avijja. That sounds like a Catch-22, but the true Dhamma is full of potentially infuriating paradoxes and points so subtle that they simply can't be grasped by reason. Patience is so necessary, and intuition. But in the world we live in today people read about something like satipatthana and they want it ASAP and it goes wrong. I will at some point post more of that transcript. The talk I'm referring to is interesting not only re the "there is no Nina" point but also about Lodewijk's stress on the importance of relationships with others, and the Brahma-Viharas. Metta, Phil 46731 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al, --- Andrew Levin wrote: .. S: I meant, would you mind reposting the note you sent to me off-list to DSG? it makes it easier for me to respond (and others too) if it's sent here. Don't worry, I don't miss anything sent to the list:). Either way, I'll try to add something when I have a little more time, at the beg, of next week, I expect. Meanwhile, did you have any comments on the post I sent you a few days ago? I think our comments 'crossed' in the mail:). Have a wise weekend. Metta, Sarah ======== 46732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, I pasted below what I especially find helpful. And the last sentence: As Kh Sujin said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. Nina. op 18-06-2005 14:19 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Rob said why not get right at the true Dhamma. These days I tend to think he's right, though I might feel differently at other times. If people get attached to > false Dhamma, to wrong understanding, the roots get so deep. This > lifetime is so rare, this chance to hear the true Dhamma, the > Buddha's teaching. Thus the need to stress anatta, which is the only > thing that sets the Buddha apart from spiritual teachers. We must > stress anatta. That's what I really like about that quote - anything > that moves us toward better understanding anatta. But that goes > against the way of the world, especially in the West, where there is > such an emphasis on self-identity, on making something of our lives, > to be great people, unique people, accomplished people. As Kh Sujin > said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. >> 46733 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi again > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > to hear > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. Just an afterthought. It should go without saying, but Herman's comment to Sarah about his being surprised to see that she can tell human stories (tongue-in-cheek, I trust) reminded me that people fail to understand that Dhamma such as the Buddha's teaching throughout Samyutta Nikaya (I will refer to that out of respect for Abhidhamma doubters) which reduces people to khandas, bases, conditions and so on - the kind of Dhamma in whose terms we discuss here - *does not* deny that we can appreciate people deeply, love them, serve them. Understanding the deeper truth helps us to see people through an understanding that is clear of many defilements. I think Samyutta Nikaya is where the Buddha's deepest teachings in the Nikaya are to be found. In Anguttara Nikaya there are so many suttas about people. We can appreciate them too, with better understanding. For example, I read one of the ones in AN today that start with something like "there are four kinds of people..." Without Abhidhamma or the deep Dhamma found in Samyutta Nikaya, we might imagine people as fixed or defined by a dominant characteristic. We know better. People will say "I cannot love a concept." This is an example of lack of mental flexibility, a lack of intuition, a lack of patience with infuriatingly (if one lets them be) subtle paradoxes. Metta, Phil 46734 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:44am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 166 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 166 Intro: Here the Visuddhimagga refers to the seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment: 1)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. As we have seen, these seventeen cetasikas include five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) Furthermore, the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is accompanied by attachment, lobha, and wrong view, di.t.thi. Thus, in this context, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. The second type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is: 2)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. As to the meaning of prompted, we read in the Vis. Ch XIV, 91: < When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the second kind.> The Tiika states: The Expositor (II, p. 339) gives an example of wrong view that is prompted. We read: Then an example is given of someone who marries a Œmaiden of heretical views¹, and though he does not agree at first with these views he accepts them later on with pleasure. Thus we see that the people with whom one associates are a condition for kusala cittas or akusala cittas. ******* Text Vis.: The remaining formations here should be understood as already stated under the profitable. For it is only the unprofitableness that differentiates them as bad. Tiika: It was said that the unprofitableness differentiates them as bad ((laamakatta.m) because of the extreme vileness (ekantanihiinataaya) of akusala dhammas. N: Here the Tiika emphasizes the danger and impurity of akusala. Text Vis.: So these are the seventeen formations that should be understood to come into association with the first unprofitable consciousness (22). And as with the first, so with the second (23), but here the difference is promptedness and inconstant [occurrence] of (xliii)stiffening and torpor. N: Sloth and torpor only arise with akusala cittas that are prompted, as we shall see. They are inconstant, that is, they do not always arise with these prompted akusala cittas. **** Conclusion: We are reminded that all accompanying cetasikas support akusala citta and that all of them are inferior and extremely vile. At the moment of akusala citta there is no shame of akusala, no fear of its consequences. There is ignorance of dhammas and restlessness, no calm. There is no confidence in the benefit of kusala, no wieldiness and skill for kusala. The universal cetasika that is attention, manasikaara, is wrong, unwise attention, and this is the proximate cause of akusala. The cetasikas of energy, decision and wish-to-do may accompany kusala citta and akusala citta. When they accompany akusala citta they are directed towards akusala. Learning about the akusala cetasikas helps us to see that akusala citta is anattaa, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. When it arises we are unable to perform any kind of kusala, kusala citta cannot be forced. So long as we take akusala for self it cannot be eradicated; wrong view has to be eradicated first. Understanding of whatever reality appears, be it kusala or akusala, is the way leading to the eradication of wrong view. **** Nina. 46735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, In the light of dhammas and their conditions, a 'defense mechanism' is quite normal. Who hasn't? We see also in this conditions and anattaness. Nina. op 18-06-2005 15:22 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Understanding the deeper truth helps us to see people through an > understanding that is clear of many defilements. 46736 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - I'm pleased that you agree with me with regard to showing love. I also agree with you that bad parenting can be enormously harmful, and that if it is done with intent or even just not giving a damn it is akusala kamma, much to be ciriticized, and, I believe, carrying akusala vipaka in its wake. And I agree with you that folks who have no wish to be parents or think they will be poor ones do the world a favor in not having children. Yet, in addition to that, I do think that we owe much to people who provide entree for us to a human birth and, especially, who provide support to us as infants (when we have no other means of survival), which I believe was the Buddha's point. So, it looks like I agree with all sides of this issue, reminding myself of Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof, who repeatedly said "But on the other hand ... ." ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/18/05 4:36:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding loving your parents with all your heart and expressing that love unmistakenly. I do have a problem with the Buddha's statement regarding our debt to our parents. My position is nicely captured in the following ditty by Philip Larkin Kind Regards Herman ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46737 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:33am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:15 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... ========================= They are no different from all the rest of those things that are real, but not substantially and independently existing. They are all empty, but not nonexistent. Nagarjuna went so far as to teach the emptiness of emptiness! Of course, all this sort of talk is a kind of "shock therapy" I think. In part, it is like a Zen koan whose purpose is, I believe, to force one to give up on conceptualization, and just "look". (As the Zen folks say with regard to nirvana: "Look! Look!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46738 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that is a misinterpretation. This is an "ultimate" perspective. I see this sutra as being written from the perspective of "the other shore," having already scuttled the raft. ------------------------------------------ If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The perfection of wisdom sutras are very hard to follow, and very easy to misinterpret. No question!! (They go hand-in-glove with the incomprehensible Zen koans!) ------------------------------------------ I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? ------------------------------------------ Howard: No. ----------------------------------------- I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? ------------------------------------------ Howard: For me it is a pointing to the ultimate, and I find it inspiring. Likewise for the Garland Sutra, which attempts to portray a Buddha's vision of reality. I find great inspiration in many Mahayana sutras and Zen writings, but I go to the Sutta Pitaka of the Theravadin tradition for the direct teaching of the Buddha and for my practice, and, of course, also for enormous inspiration. Such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Kalakarama Sutta, the Bahiya Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, and the Anapanasati Sutta are my mainstay. ------------------------------------------ Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, hey, just stay away from what isn't helpful! :-) --------------------------------------- The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree. BTW, I don't view this sutta as a mantra-chanting recipe. ------------------------------------------ There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. We begin where we are, not where we'd hope to be! ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46739 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:57am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers > Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost > as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned > about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core > values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly > loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those > composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging > to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient > not to be clung to. > -fk > Dear Frank I think all views are conditioned and Buddhism is also a view and will end as well some day. There will come another Buddha and he will point the way, someone will record the event and another raft will be built just as sturdy but it will not be called Buddhism, who knows what it's name will be. To me it is important to move along and not to cling to the raft that has been by Gotama the Buddha. As soon as the other shore has been reached the raft will be left behind and the other shore will be left behind as well. Trudging onward I have no clue what will happen tomorrow! ************************************************* (Prajnaparamita Ratnagunasamcayagatha) Translation Edward Conze The Meaning of Emptiness He courses in dharmas as empty, signless and wishless; But he does not experience the Blessed Rest, nor does he course in a sign: As a skilful ferryman goes from this [shore] to the other shore, But does not stand at either end, nor does he stand in the great flood. Thus coursing, the Bodhisattva also does not think: 'Predestined by those who have the ten powers, may I experience enlightenment!' Nor is he trembling [because he sees that] enlightenment is here not anything. Thus coursing he becomes one who courses in the wisdom of the Sugatas. ***************************************************** With metta and even though we may be a heap of thoughts I see the steady light (not the light from a candle either lol) in our heart (not the muscle) which shines so brightly delight rises and is not mine or yours to hold. "Hey Tep maybe the light is unsteady because your attention is unsteady (runs away and hides)" There are as many points of view as there are stars in the sky when it comes to which way is right and which way is wrong. When there is no grasping or aversion to view and no right or wrong this is the way one slips and slides to nibbana which is not a place to rest only the state of unbinding from all points of view....hahahaha Emo Kid...Lisa P.S Did you know that the Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are the Prajnaparamita Sutra? I didn't know that.... 46740 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Reflection, mirror mirror on the wall, also duplication, dna replication ksheri3 Hi Sarah, You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? The brain is our western way to describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., seems to have a mind of their own. I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not very confident of using them. So, be kind to this neophyte and don't tear me up too much as I play with this new toy I've discovered. Sarah you and K.Sujin, I've noticed in my recent Googles,are well represented so I'd rather not engage you both at the same time, but there's a first time for everything huh? Oh, no, I've only got 5 min. on the computer left to do research etc. at least the points I was gonna attack, engage, are listed below in your p.s. and I can recover Monday. Glad to be here. Cetasikas and Cittas I'm still not too clear yet I know it's in the Abhidhamma so I'll review. Oh, Vipissana meditation, please explain! toodles, colette - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> --- Philip wrote: > p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments > and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much > earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... > I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned > by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great > to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) > =========== 46741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. nilovg Dear Friends, Commentary 2. to Section IV, satokari ñaa.na, mindful worker¹s knowledge. Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. The Co states that the subject of anapanasati which is the foundation of sukha vihaara dhamma (dwelling at ease here, now) of the Buddhas, Solitary Buddhas and all disciples (savakas) of the Buddha, that it is the highest in the field of the meditation subjects. Therefore, for the yogavacara who does not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses. If he develops it in the forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the highest fruit. That is why the Buddha said: gone to the forest (araññagato). ***** Nina. 46742 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and Nina) - I have read Nina's reply to your request, Phil, and it seems you are already satisfied with that answer. But there is a sutta passage I know that gives the real meaning as to why the "Dhamma goes against the ways of the world" or renunciation is against the "flow" so to speak. Here it is : "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Suppose a man was being carried along by the flow of a river, lovely & alluring. And then another man with good eyesight, standing on the bank, on seeing him would say: 'My good man, even though you are being carried along by the flow of a river, lovely & alluring, further down from here is a pool with waves & whirlpools, with monsters & demons. On reaching that pool you will suffer death or death-like pain.' Then the first man, on hearing the words of the second man, would make an effort with his hands & feet to go against the flow. "I have given you this simile to illustrate a meaning. The meaning is this: the flow of the river stands for craving. Lovely & alluring stands for the six internal sense-media. The pool further down stands for the five lower fetters. The waves stand for anger & distress. The whirlpools stand for the five strings of sensuality. The monsters & demons stand for the opposite sex. Against the flow stands for renunciation. Making an effort with hands & feet stands for the arousing of persistence. The man with good eyesight standing on the bank stands for the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened." {Iti IV.10; Iti 114} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti4.html#109 Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for > sure in which way he meant that. > Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also > anything from the commentaries on this? > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 46743 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > Okay, let me put my RIGHT TO BE WRONG, my IGNORANCE, out there as a > predetermining factor here about the Middle Path, Way, Pillar, etc. > > From what I've read on my first reading of the A bhidhammattha-Sangaha > I have an inkling that this middle path is folly, just as ignorant > and self-centered as either the dreaded Left Hand Path (possibly in > this case the Vajrana) or the Right Hand Path (probably the > Theravadan view, model) > > I do not believe the "DOOR" is non-duality I think the door would be > a javana (consciousness) or jhana,(?). I don't have all the > definitions with me right now at the library. Hi Colette, so nice to meet you! Lovely dictionary to help with Pali terms during A bhidhamma study study: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/dictionary/bd4.html Interesting abhidhamma study group who also practice samatha meditation. http://www.samatha.org/publications/abhidhammapapers/ Also there is this Study Group (DSG) which has tons of wonderful rescourses on Abhidhamma and how to use it in every day life. There are many guides here I will not tell you who they are, you may already know and if you don't know who they are I will let you find them, it will be a treasure hunt for you if you like that kind of activity. Warning Personal Opinion: Consciousness and jhana are all dependent on something else to be just as the word non-duality is empty of any kind of independent existence. Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric and these things are also made up of other things and if you try and take these things down to the smallest of particales all you would find is empty space. There is no chair and there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in if you don't want to sit on the ground! The jhana is a tool and a lovely one at that but it is a means not an end in my very limited opinion. The Abhidhamma explains all these things that come and go down to the very last detail, it explains consciousness and I see it as a teaching tool for teachers to understand the different mind sets of their students. That's my point of view and I see the Abhidhamma as very useful if your going to work with others to help them understand themselves and also break free of aversions and cravings. I still don't think Abhidhamma is a useful tool for every day living but that point of view may change as I move along. I do not see any of the Dhamma as in doctrine as bad or good but rather as tools to unbind from aversion and craving. Everyone has different patterns of aversion and craving and the tools the Buddha left are made to adapt to those different patterns. With Metta, Lisa 46744 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the Breathing Treatise. I also appreciate reading your comments to the presentation whenever you have time to write. I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience? With gratefulness and respect, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Commentary 2. to Section IV, satokari ñaa.na, mindful worker¹s knowledge. > Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. > The Co states that the subject of anapanasati which is the foundation of > sukha vihaara dhamma (dwelling at ease here, now) of the Buddhas, Solitary > Buddhas and all disciples (savakas) of the Buddha, that it is the highest in > the field of the meditation subjects. Therefore, for the yogavacara who does > not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed > by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses. If he develops it in the > forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for > the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the > highest fruit. That is why the Buddha said: gone to the forest (araññagato). > > ***** > Nina. 46745 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant Sarah, as you requested. This was the e-mail referencing post #46584 (not included here because of its length). I think I expected a reply from Nina, too, but I know that she is away for a week or so, so that is why there wasn't a response. Just don't want it to die there. thx, a.l. >>>hi sarah, are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, what approach to take, etc? if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that sake the discipline at all. let me know. pz, Andrew L<<< --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Al, > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > .. > S: I meant, would you mind reposting the note you sent to me off-list to > DSG? it makes it easier for me to respond (and others too) if it's sent > here. > Meanwhile, did you have any comments on the post I sent you a few days > ago? I think our comments 'crossed' in the mail:). No, no comments (if you are talking about the post where I snipped most of the original message). Any relevant material that would be brought up there however would probably come up in this post. 46746 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I have a couple more thoughts on this topic. First, maybe we could discuss what is meant by 'object of desire'. To my mind, an object of desire, or object of any consciousness/cetasika, is a single dhamma (concept or reality) that conditions the arising of a consciousness process. I find it misleading to say consciousness experiences an object. Rather, I would say consciousness IS experience. Desire doesn't experience sweet taste; desire is the experience of desire that a formation of sweet tastes conditions. Instead of saying that having an object differentiates nama from rupa, I would say nama is experience and rupa is a reality that isn't an experience. We can see this easily in the case of hardness. Hardness is an experience, a body consciousness, but material solidity is not an experience. In this view 'object' is not half of a subject/object relationship, but, instead, is a particular kind of conditioning factor. Desire is as much a separate, unique experience as taste consciousness is. However, this may necessitate the rethinking of our understanding of some cetasikas, such as ignorance and wisdom. Seemingly ignorance ignores an object and wisdom cognizes an object in a subject/object relationship. What ignorance ignores and wisdom cognizes is own-nature (sabhava). However, if we look at ignorance and wisdom as stand-alone experiences, instead of as 'subject', then, in the case of 'ignorance of taste while tasting', the ignorant experience is the unrecognized experience of a compact whole of taste consciousness and other factors, and the wisdom experience would be a specific, uncompounded taste consciousness. A wisdom understanding would be an integration of both these consciousnesses, the whole and its parts. If wisdom couldn't see the whole it would be in the predicament of the woman who couldn't recognize her husband because she was focused on paramattha dhammas (RobertK's story). Now, back to our discussion on whether paramattha dhammas condition desire and aversion. Abhidhamma says desire or aversion arises with ignorance. I think it makes more sense to say an ignorance object, such as the consciousness of a compound whole, conditions the arising of desire. When we like a taste, the 'taste' is actually a compact whole (concept). If we experience specific taste (paramattha dhamma) that taste does not condition the arising of desire. I suspect you will probably disagree with most of the above so the question I would ask you is how does ignorance function with desire? When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring? Larry 46747 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:17pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Lisa, I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future generations. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many Buddhists before us. Before I encountered the Buddha dhamma, I was angry at the world and depressed. Imagine being born into a world where the Buddha dhamma has disappeared? I can't fathom what a horrible hell that would be, even if I had the good kamma to be born as a king with every conceivable pleasure and convenience at my disposal. The dhamma is so priceless I would gladly die 100 excruciatingly painful deaths to keep it alive for future generations. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:57 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only > Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost > as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned > about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core > values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly > loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those > composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging > to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient > not to be clung to. > -fk > Dear Frank I think all views are conditioned and Buddhism is also a view and will end as well some day. There will come another Buddha and he will point the way, someone will record the event and another raft will be built just as sturdy but it will not be called Buddhism, who knows what it's name will be. To me it is important to move along and not to cling to the raft that has been by Gotama the Buddha. As soon as the other shore has been reached the raft will be left behind and the other shore will be left behind as well. Trudging onward I have no clue what will happen tomorrow! ************************************************* (Prajnaparamita Ratnagunasamcayagatha) Translation Edward Conze The Meaning of Emptiness He courses in dharmas as empty, signless and wishless; But he does not experience the Blessed Rest, nor does he course in a sign: As a skilful ferryman goes from this [shore] to the other shore, But does not stand at either end, nor does he stand in the great flood. Thus coursing, the Bodhisattva also does not think: 'Predestined by those who have the ten powers, may I experience enlightenment!' Nor is he trembling [because he sees that] enlightenment is here not anything. Thus coursing he becomes one who courses in the wisdom of the Sugatas. ***************************************************** With metta and even though we may be a heap of thoughts I see the steady light (not the light from a candle either lol) in our heart (not the muscle) which shines so brightly delight rises and is not mine or yours to hold. "Hey Tep maybe the light is unsteady because your attention is unsteady (runs away and hides)" There are as many points of view as there are stars in the sky when it comes to which way is right and which way is wrong. When there is no grasping or aversion to view and no right or wrong this is the way one slips and slides to nibbana which is not a place to rest only the state of unbinding from all points of view....hahahaha Emo Kid...Lisa P.S Did you know that the Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are the Prajnaparamita Sutra? I didn't know that.... 46748 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:30pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, Bear in mind that the heart sutra is practiced by millions of Buddhists as a rote sutra recitation, for the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom(?!). If all the Buddhists reciting it had the same understanding of the heart sutra as you do then I would have no issue with it. If the Heart Sutra were recorded as the poetic utterance of a highly cultivated being, then it would probably be one of my favorite works as well. But I find it really distasteful and counterproductive to attribute that work to the Buddha using supernormal powers to induce the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara to belittle Sariputta. Not cool at all. For advanced practioners with highly developed Samadhi and theoretical understanding of the dhamma, I can appreciate the values of the heart sutra. For the average Buddhist, the heart sutra is at best a very nice poetic work and a mental exercise of cleverness. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 6:57 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that is a misinterpretation. This is an "ultimate" perspective. I see this sutra as being written from the perspective of "the other shore," having already scuttled the raft. ------------------------------------------ If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The perfection of wisdom sutras are very hard to follow, and very easy to misinterpret. No question!! (They go hand-in-glove with the incomprehensible Zen koans!) ------------------------------------------ I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? ------------------------------------------ Howard: No. ----------------------------------------- I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? ------------------------------------------ Howard: For me it is a pointing to the ultimate, and I find it inspiring. Likewise for the Garland Sutra, which attempts to portray a Buddha's vision of reality. I find great inspiration in many Mahayana sutras and Zen writings, but I go to the Sutta Pitaka of the Theravadin tradition for the direct teaching of the Buddha and for my practice, and, of course, also for enormous inspiration. Such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Kalakarama Sutta, the Bahiya Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, and the Anapanasati Sutta are my mainstay. ------------------------------------------ Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, hey, just stay away from what isn't helpful! :-) --------------------------------------- The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree. BTW, I don't view this sutta as a mantra-chanting recipe. ------------------------------------------ There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. We begin where we are, not where we'd hope to be! ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard rfffr 46749 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Tep But there is a sutta passage I know > that gives the real meaning as to why the "Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world" Ph: As for the "real meaning", this is your opinion, of course. That's why I asked for commentarial material. But I like to hear people's opinions. > "I have given you this simile to illustrate a meaning. The meaning is > this: the flow of the river stands for craving. Lovely & alluring stands for > the six internal sense-media. The pool further down stands for the five > lower fetters. The waves stand for anger & distress. The whirlpools > stand for the five strings of sensuality. The monsters & demons stand > for the opposite sex. Against the flow stands for renunciation. Making > an effort with hands & feet stands for the arousing of persistence. The > man with good eyesight standing on the bank stands for the Tathagata, > worthy & rightly self-awakened." {Iti IV.10; Iti 114} Ph: This is quite a busy river! Lots to think about. It is nice together with the wonderful SN 1:1 which really provides a helpful prelude to the Buddha's teaching, so we know the subtlety of what lies ahead. "Against the flow" in this case is renunciation, in SN 1:1 it warns against pressing too hard ahead. (Pressing hard without right understanding of conditions, in my opinion.) What in this river stands for the "standing still I sank" of SN 1:1? Perhaps the the whirlpools of sensuality or the pool of the five fetters. These river similes are very helpful. Thanks. Metta, Phil p.s signing of 'til next weekend, everyone. Sorry for the delay in any responses. 46750 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > > to hear > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the following. I know that you sometimes remember your mother, even when you are far away from her. You know how to contact her, and you know how to connect with her when you have contacted her. You and your mother have shared memories. I don't remember her, and I don't know how to contact or connect with her. I have no shared memories with your mother. Do your memories of your mother have an origin, a cause, a condition? Is there something that gave rise to you conceiving of your mother, no matter how variable and complex that may be? Or is your memory of your mother as you varyingly conceive of her without any foundation in reality? When you ring your mother and talk to her, what do you understand yourself to be doing ? And when your mother responds to you, what do you think is happening, as it is happening ( not in a later disection of your memory of it) ? Kind Regards Herman 46751 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:18pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Hi Lisa, > I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with > death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's > dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more > perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future > generations. > Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying > about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my > practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will > eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how > ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to > keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many > Buddhists before us. Dear Larry, I can't remember which teacher told me this. I was told the way to give honor to Dhamma and support it and your teacher and the Sangha is to follow the Buddha as best you can (be a good student and learn what is being taught). For me that means to break free from Samsara and I will have done my duty and given honor where honor is due. Dhamma is all around us and can never be owned by anyone or any religion. It has always been here and will never ever go away the doctrine cannot contain it for it is only words on paper. My duty or my kamma is to know this right now. Detachment is not disrespect in my fragile opinion nor is it apathy. It helps me stand tall and straigh as everything comes and goes with all that confusion in my mind and work my way through without getting lost. Talk about the woods, there is a whole stand of wild woods right in my mind and I do try and sit there like the ones who go to the forest and meditate. As we sit and quietly listen for Buddha or to Buddha (I don't mean on my behind in meditation) I guess this sets the seeds for us to be Buddha's some day and bring these useful tools to help others build the raft that will carry them to freedom. This will continue to keep the teachings alive I think. I want you to know I also feel the anguish of these times and knowing these things helps me dig in and really work at what is happening right now. I can get up close because I know everything passes away and there is no grief or fear that will last forever here and now and that also goes for happiness and bliss. It has really helped me not fret so much at the injustice of this world. I don't think there is anything else for me to say on this my words and understanding are very limited. I wanted to reach out one more time and try to put what I see into words, it doesn't work very well. I think my sight is foggy and my words are fragile. With Metta, Lisa 46752 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways egberdina Hi Lisa and everyone, I think the following is a very good description. >Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are > empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many > different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric > and these things are also made up of other things > and if you try and take these things down to the > smallest of particales all you would find is empty > space. There is no chair and > there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a > nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on > too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in > if you don't want to sit on the ground! So what is the ontological status (Hi Joop :-)) of memory? Is memory real? Are its objects real? Is memory other than its object(s)? Kind Regards Herman 46753 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. lbidd2 Tep: "I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience?" Hi Tep, I read it with interest but don't have anything to say. It's helpful to have the book because many questions that may arise are answered later. Also clarifications from the Thai version are very helpful. Keep up the good work!! Larry 46754 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:32pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 7:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, Bear in mind that the heart sutra is practiced by millions of Buddhists as a rote sutra recitation, for the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom(?!). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- If all the Buddhists reciting it had the same understanding of the heart sutra as you do then I would have no issue with it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, unfortunately things are not optimal. Dukkha, ya know! ;-)) ------------------------------------- If the Heart Sutra were recorded as the poetic utterance of a highly cultivated being, then it would probably be one of my favorite works as well. But I find it really distasteful and counterproductive to attribute that work to the Buddha using supernormal powers to induce the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara to belittle Sariputta. Not cool at all. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see that as a belittling, but I sympathize with your unhappiness at the presentation of Mahayana sutras as Buddha word. Not all Mahayanists see it that way, though. I doubt that Thich Nhat Hanh does, for example. (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word either, though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) ---------------------------------------- For advanced practioners with highly developed Samadhi and theoretical understanding of the dhamma, I can appreciate the values of the heart sutra. For the average Buddhist, the heart sutra is at best a very nice poetic work and a mental exercise of cleverness. -fk =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry and Nina - > I read it with interest but don't have anything to say. It's helpful to > have the book because many questions that may arise are answered later. > Also clarifications from the Thai version are very helpful. Keep up the > good work!! > > Larry I am pleased that you do, Larry. Yes, more clarifications from the Thai version are promised. Thanks. With appreciation and respect, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this > Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the > general audience?" > > Hi Tep, > 46756 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Lisa and everyone, > > I think the following is a very good description. > > >Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are > > empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many > > different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric > > and these things are also made up of other things > > and if you try and take these things down to the > > smallest of particales all you would find is empty > > space. There is no chair and > > there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a > > nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on > > too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in > > if you don't want to sit on the ground! > > So what is the ontological status (Hi Joop :-)) of memory? Is memory > real? Are its objects real? Is memory other than its object(s)? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman, Your questions tickle my fancy! Plus no social obligations this weekend and I have time to scribble, I hope you don't mind. I'm not being flippant, I respect Dhamma and how odd your questions fit in with my reading. Oh blast it I have to go look up ontological which just doesn't seem to fit in a Buddhist context. Be right back..... Principles instead of attributes. Defining what is absolute which cannot be described as it is but only through it's attributes. Existence...very difficult to define! In philosophy, ontology (from the Greek ?? = being and ????? = word/speech) is the most fundamental branch of metaphysics. It studies being or existence as well as the basic categories thereof -- trying to find out what entities and what types of entities exist. Ontology has strong implications for the conceptions of reality. I can never remember what ontology means and have to go look it up every time it's mentioned...lol I am not very good at metaphysics it brings up the cursing sankharas :P the word 'kha' drives me absolutely batty!!!! I cursed 28 times trying to understand zero in a metaphysical context...One of Rene Guenon's books if I remember correctly he is a very cool writer nothing warm and fuzzy to hold onto. Okay lets have a go at what 'I' think memory is. I saw memory in mediation as patterns held together by habit and desire. They are not stable and are easily influenced by my physical health. I don't know if the mind is local but the brain is here right now and online it may be like my pc and it stores what is happening within it on it's hard disk and that is my individual memory. The mind is the network of pcs and other devices that are part of this network. What the mind is I have no clue really, but I bet it's one giant index! Hahaha bhavanga http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bhavanga_sota.htm Bhavanga (bhava-anga), which, in the canonical works, is mentioned twice or thrice in the Patthaana, is explained in the Abhidhamma commentaries as the foundation or condition (kaarana) of existence (bhava), as the sine qua non of life, having the nature of a process, lit. a flux or stream (sota). Herein, since time immemorial, all impressions and experiences are, as it were, stored up, or better said, are functioning, but concealed as such to - full consciousness, from where however they occasionally emerge as subconscious phenomena and approach the threshold of full consciousness, or crossing it become fully conscious. This so-called 'subconscious life-stream' or undercurrent of life is that by which might be explained the faculty of memory, paranormal psychic phenomena, mental and physical growth, karma and rebirth. etc. An alternative rendering is 'life-continuum'. Wouldn't an index be a better discription? Or am I off in the wilderness again without a clue? I think the foundation or bhavanga is the index which is a complete memory of all things that happen. Bhavanga is like a list of all things, impressions and experiences but it is hidden just like the google index. All we see is the surface of the Google or life site it's graphics and fonts or our sensual experience. That is just like existence all we see is the surface of it. We type in a random word or we act in a random or thoughtless way and google or life brings us back what ever is listed on the index that our typed word or action brings up. Just like my desktop search indexes all the files on my pc. It is a flux because or stream because there is constant additions being added as more information is added just like files are added daily to my pc as I work on it. I love Googles desktop search I no longer have to make so many folders and subfolders (hahaha). Just like the google index lifes index is hidden and all we see is the google site where we search. Same with life all we see is what we can sense. We may think we are having psychic happenings when we remember past lives or future events but actually we are doing a "do you think your lucky search" on the index of existence. My memory is faulty at best, I need a better search engine or maybe I need to use more precise words to bring up the correct inforamtion! So Herman, what do you think memory is in a Buddhist context? With Metta, Lisa 46757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:00pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only lbidd2 Lisa: "In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: Hi Lisa, I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future generations. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many Buddhists before us. Dear Larry,..." Hi Lisa, I think you meant "Dear Frank". I agree with you that the best way to guard the Dhamma is to be a good student. That starts out with lots of individualistic style but in the end they all end up the same: wide open. Larry 46758 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Lisa, Thanks so much for this post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. It set me thinking on a number of tangents. Oh, rainy Sundays have their use, don't they? I thought you made many useful comments, especially about googling, indexing and unconscious memory. I'll snip the whole post, bar the last line. I hope that's OK :-) > So Herman, what do you think memory is in a Buddhist context? > I think of memory, outside a Buddhist context, as both the bones and the flesh of our existences, whatever that may be. Memory is at least three-fold, conscious memory, unconscious memory and non-conscious memory. You have addressed the first two, I'll spend a bit of time on the last one. Non-conscious memory is the same as information. Below are some definitions of how I would use the term information. Information is a representation of a state of affairs which will allow the re-formation and trans-formation of that state of affairs. As in the case of DNA. No mind involved. Information is a pattern or cycle. No mind involved. Information is the opposing trend in systems that tend to greater disorder, by reducing the uncertainty of that system (i.e. introducing predictability into that system). For example, a puddle may inform of an earlier rain shower. A coal deposit may inform of a swamped forest millions of years ago. In a Buddhist context, I do not think the concept of inanimate information had any currency in Gautama's time. Which I can live with :-) I think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. Kind Regards Herman 46759 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > Kind Regards > Herman Hello Herman, Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna receives almost no attention? My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. metta, Chris 46760 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Christine, Good to hear from you. == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > Hello Herman, > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > receives almost no attention? > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > == I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) receives almost no attention in the Canon. All the best Herman > metta, > Chris 46761 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Chris and everyone, Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text available on line anywhere? The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Good to hear from you. > > == > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > receives almost no attention? > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > == > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > > > > metta, > > Chris 46762 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Herman, Well, you could be right - I'm a little out of practice - haven't been around much lately :-) Though I see sanna is listed in the Useful Posts as memory, perception .. and sati as awareness A quick look brings up this post from Htoo and from Nina on sati: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38028 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 and a couple of dictionary definitions: memory : (f.) sati. (nt.) anussaraṇa || right memory: (f.) sammāsati. perception : (f.) saññā. (nt.) vijānana. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ So ... still confused about similarities and differences. Hope you are getting the rain? - drizzling down here at the moment, and I'm wishing I'd cleaned the leaves out of the gutters. Tanks need the water. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Good to hear from you. > > == > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > receives almost no attention? > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > == > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > receives almost no attention in the Canon. 46763 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Acquisition of Fuel ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Continuation and Prolongation of Misery: Friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as permanent, as lasting, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure, they thereby all stimulate craving! Stimulating craving they long, thirsts and hankers, thereby inducing acquisition of sense desires, acquisition of mental defilements, acquisition of intentions, hopes, wishes and planning, and acquisition of the 5 clusters of clinging! By nurturing uptake of these acquisitions of fuel for becoming, fuel for existence, they provoking continuation! Thus provoking prolongation, they are not freed from birth, ageing, and death! They are not released from sorrow, depression, despair, misery, pain, frustration, discontent & hopelessness. I tell you: They are not freed from neither present nor future suffering...!!! But friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as impermanent, as transient, as suffering, as no-self, as a disease, as danger, as fearful, as an empty terror, they thereby all reduce craving. When thus having gradually wholly eliminated all craving, I tell you: They are thereby freed from all Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 107-112 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46764 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Herman, Do you have Nyanaponika "Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Exploration of Consciousness and Time" ? I can't find my copy at the moment to check - but see the paragraph beginning "Nyanaponika's two core essays are prefaced by three shorter pieces" in Rupert Gethin's review in the Journal of Buddhist Ethics: http://www.jbe.gold.ac.uk/7/gethin001.html I'll have a look on line - but don't expect to find it. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Chris and everyone, > > Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text > available on line anywhere? > > The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the > Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > Good to hear from you. > > > > == > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the > entire > > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > > receives almost no attention? > > > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > > > == > > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > > receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > 46765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion nilovg Hi Larry, awaiting Sarah's answer next week, I just take out your Q. about ignorance, since it concerns our recent posting. As to experiencing and the object, this is more in Howard's department, phenomenology. Personally I think that experiencing must be something that is experienced, but this was discussed before. Yes, object is a condiiton for citta and cetasika, by way of being their object. It is correct to say that nama is an experience and rupa does not experience. I would like to go into your last question. It is a good point. op 19-06-2005 00:59 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: ... how does ignorance function with desire? > When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring? ------------- N: Returning to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163: reviewing my conclusion: ***** Returning to your question: < When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring?> --------- N: Now, when I answer according to the text: ignorance does not know that there is desire for a merely insignificant dhamma that falls away immediately. It is foolish to be attached to an object that is so shortlived, but we are foolish, and that is ignorance. We keep on being attached to all objects, because we are in the cycle. Ignorance conditions kamma that produces rebirth. I answer according to the book, but the direct realization is far away. It is really difficult to penetrate the true characteristic of ignorance, we have so much ignorance about our ignorance. Please hang on if things are not clear. Nina. 46766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] general remarks on Breathing Treatise - nilovg Dear Tep, op 18-06-2005 21:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the > Breathing Treatise. ------- N: I do not intend to give a series, that is too much for me. Only little bits here and there. I could also insert from Kh. Sujin I am listening to almost every day, but I have to think where to put it, in an appropriate place. ------- T: I also appreciate reading your comments to the > presentation whenever you have time to write. ----------- N: You give a long post once a week, but how about giving shorter ones in the course of one week, cutting it up. I understand that breaking off is sometimes difficult because one may lose sight of the context. People tend to skip long posts. Sarah had a few remarks I did not keep, because I had just returned and too many posts. What about going over them one at a time, looking at the context and seeing how we can make additions. I am glad to help. ----------- T: I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing > Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience? --------- N: Listen to Larry: keep up the good work. This is part of the Sutta Tipitaka, Khuddhaka Nikaya. It is useful. The text is difficult, but difficulties are there to be overcome! You did your best adding explanations to words. When people do not react it does not mean that they are not reading it. But it takes already some study to be able to ask questions. We miss Htoo, don't we? Another reason that people do not react is that this list is very busy, there is so much to read. So, let us begin with Sarah's points. With appreciation, Nina. 46767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Howard, I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. Nina. op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > either, > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) 46768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan With my usual apology to all for the late replies. Dan D. wrote: > Yup. I don't know very much about Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism, but > Buddhism and reformation Christianity share the core doctrine of the > tilakkana, albeit expressed in different words. That may well be so from your perspective, but then if it were the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that follower of that doctrine could become arahants, since final enlightenment is marked by (or immediately preceded by) the full penetration of the 3 characteristics of conditioned dhammas. Jon 46769 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran jonoabb Hi KenH kenhowardau wrote: >Yes, but I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding >of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly >different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new >heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a >clearer picture of what I was talking about. > No, I think this discussion is very useful. I would put it this way: that it would not be correct to assume that acting on one's understanding of the Dhamma was kusala. This is because one's understanding is of course only partial, and also because only panna can know whether the present mind-state is kusala or akusala. To think that 'I'm doing such-and-such kind of kusala, therefore this must be a kusala mind-state', is just a deduction (and given the very strong latent tendencies for akusala that we all have, is likely to be an incorrect one ;-)). >------------------------------------------------ >J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know >it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first >precept. >----------------------------------------------- > >That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen >so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the >farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, >to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, >move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, >eventually, not even have my own kitchen. > I thought with the termite situation you were trying to make the distinction between acting with the intention of taking life, on the one hand, and acting knowing that loss of life was likely (or even bound) to follow but without any actual intention of taking life, on the other. The latter could not be a breach of the precept because of the absence of one of the necessary ingredients. I mentioned digging in the garden because I thought it might be a clearer example of that distinction. My own view is that while there are certain lifestyle choices that make keeping the precepts somewhat easier, in the end it comes down to one's understanding and not one's social circumstances or environment. I am not making plans for any further retreat/withdrawal from where I am now ;-)) >------------------------------------------------------ >J: > Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your >reference to the house full of termites? >------------------------------------------------------ > >As I was saying, I still don't have this perspective clear in my >mind. But, yes, I think there would be wrong understanding in any >Buddhist householder who agonised over fumigating his termite- >infested house. > Of course, the wrong understanding is there whether we fumigate or not, and that's why it is said that there is no 'right' answer to these situational dilemmas. Jon 46770 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:05am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James (I lost your message due to a problem with my mail program. Sorry for the delay.) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Jon: The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the > arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is > merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that > action with the idea that insight will result > > James: No, they are not both likely to do that. You are guessing and > putting forth a subjective interpretation as fact. Even in the > Buddha's time, when monks were given a meditation/reflection subject, > they didn't automatically assume that attention to that subject was > going to bring about insight. Sometimes they would go back to the > Buddha for another subject because they thought the first one wasn't > going to work. Jon, they do not believe in rituals just because they > believe in the possible effectiveness of certain meditation subjects. The question here is (I think -- please correct me if I've misunderstood you): Would the idea that 'samatha bhavana, while not necessary for vipassana bhavana, is nevertheless conducive to vipassana bhavana' be belief in rites and rituals? Let me put it this way. To my understanding, whatever one's present level of samatha development may be, insight can (potentially) be developed at the present moment, if the teachings have been correctly understood. So to think that there should first be the development of (more) samatha, or that if there were more highly developed samatha now there would be more insight, would be to focus in the wrong direction. > Jon: or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, > the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in > rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. > > James: Well, again you are stating your personal opinion and there is > no reason I should believe your personal opinion in this matter. You > need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are > stating and I will believe you. I'll keep this in mind and let you know when I find a suitable passage. > Jon: I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of > our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this > lifetime). > > James: Good. Now, if you would just realize that the effort applied > to practice is more or less directly proportional to the level of > development, we would be in business! ;-)) OK, you asked for it: "You need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are stating and I will believe you." ;-)) > Jon: However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana > Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here > -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 > anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to > hear more on your thinking about this. > > James: I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the > Satipatthana Sutta, the whole discourse, was addressed to bhikkhus and > bhikkhunis. The Buddha didn't give teachings like that to lay folk. But you did draw a distinction between the section on the body and the other 3 sections. I'd be interested to know the basis for that. (If this is another of those areas that's too hot to handle, I'll understand ;-)) Jon 46771 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >T: It does not fit any good purpose to "designate" a special time for >dhatus reflection, Jon. >Since the Great Teacher did not specify a "particular bodily action or >posture" for the dhatus meditation, then it is up to us. > Yes, no special time or place, posture or activity, is necessary. And I would also say it is something that can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation. For example, it could occur while we are thinking about some part of the teachings we are reading, but not with the idea of having that kind of reflection. >T: When there is sati, there is also sampajanna. There is no >sampajanna if there is no sati. When I contemplate on the arising and >passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are >developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according >to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the concentration >that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". > Well obviously the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment will not be experienced until that moment arrives. But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. >T: Do you believe that the mindfulness that is conditioned by >such "hearing the teachings", "reflecting.." and "appreciating..." is >strong enough to be called samma-sati that can further condition "the >concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment"? [All >the quoted words are yours.] > As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also accompanied by samma-samadhi, and it is the gradual accrual of such moments that leads eventually (but a long, long time later) to enlightenment. >Jon: ... the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes >mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa >while walking, this would be something that is described in the section >on the modes of deportment. > >T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? > Good question. I would say that while walking there can be sati having as its object a dhamma belonging to any of the 4 arousings/foundations, and likewise while standing, sitting or lying. In other words, there is not meant to be a particular correlation between a certain posture and a certain object of satipatthana. Jon 46772 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, > Quite nicely put. I had only pencilled you into my "evil" book, but > I think I might erase you now. Okay? (-: Thanks, but don't be too hasty. From one way of looking at it, all worldlings should all be in your "evil" book. Wrong view, doubt and ignorance are appalling things, and yet we have them all. It's a wonder we have the nerve to show our faces! :-) Ken H 46773 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi Sara, You asked what do I understand by the following terms: 'form/physical bodies' (rupas) and 'intellect' (sankhara)? a.. Form is the physical body, and all that makes it (flesh, organs cells); I also remember some one saying all sense objects. b.. Intellect is the ability to concoct, understand, ...; personally speaking, it is the process by which we create, modify, and destroy links/connections between events. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 08 June, 2005 09:30 Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sara, > When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread > (I will try to remember names next time). > > When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I > thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. ... S: Well, that gave me two clues:-). Larry & Howard. ... > I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was > listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this > group is isolated to the Theravadan version). > > You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and > nibbana. This is the > same as the khandhas and nibbana." > > By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical > bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and > that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan > abdharama? .... S: Yes. Not just according to the Abhidhamma, but according to the Tipitaka and to what can be directly realised. btw, you've translated rupas as 'form/physical bodies' and sankhara khandha as 'intellect'. What do you understand by these terms or realities? 46774 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I have always liked that name (I wonder way -- I have no close friends or family with that name, yet it has an interesting appeal). This attachment to your name is an event (this makes "you" and "me" unimportant), your name is an event, the tree, the rock, the day at work, jealousy, love, etc. are all events too (something that happens). When I first learned of the "no"-selves concept, I was taught to view every thing as events that arise, ... instead of selves that ... However events are fuel for other events. In this sense, even Arhats can be the cause or effect of events. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 08 June, 2005 09:37 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? Hi Charles, You wrote several posts addressed to Htoo, but he said he won't have internet access for several months, so you may wish to make a note of your posts and re-send them on his return. Let me just comment on a note in this one which was also addressed to me: --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah & Htoo > > Sarah, When Htoo stated: > > "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment > events." > > You replied with: > > "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or > akusala?" > > Htoo then replied with: > > "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of > ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage > of the whole circle temporarily." > AND > "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa > and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and > this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of > satipatthaana." > AND > "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." > > I have to ask and state: > > What is Satipatthaana? .... S: The path which leads to the eradication of ignorance through awareness and understanding of realities. .... > And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am > off base: > > Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still > events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO > continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated > (give rise to other events). ... S: Yes I think I agree (though I'm not sure about the use of 'events'), no new fuel, however. Also, when ignorance is completely eradicated, no further rebirth at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 46775 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self dacostacharles Hi Venky, That depends on one's definition. Based on my definition, what I see in the mirror is my self, but I can not touch it though the mirror. However the mirror can guide "my" hand and eyes to touch my self (even though it is not needed). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: V V Kulkarni To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 06 June, 2005 07:24 Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi! All The duality of self can be explained by the analogy of looking into the mirror. What you see is you but that is not actually you and you can never see you. Best regards Venky Charles DaCosta wrote: Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) is a viewpoint".>, according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46776 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:06am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma egberdina Hi Nina, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I am also following with interest the discussions between you and Lodewijk about neither of you existing. LOL. It reminds me of the many round-the-dinner-table-discussions I have had with my children about the nature of existence. I put a stop to those discussions when it was clear that one of my sons was distressed by his own understanding of emptiness. One does not feed meat to a baby. Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. Please keep us uptodate with the discussions with Lodewijk about both your non-existences. I think they are hilarious. :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) > The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. > You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher > of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. > Nina. > op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > > either, > > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) 46777 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:18am Subject: Trim reminder time again ! dsgmods Dear Friends, Recently there have been quite a few messages that have contained long passages of untrimmed material from an earlier post or posts. Members are asked to kindly trim out all material from earlier posts that is not necessary for an understanding of their own comments. (If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you can assume that other members will have seen it.) The complete Guidelines for DSG can be found in the 'files' section on the homepage. Thanks for your cooperation Jon and Sarah PS Any comments or questions off-list, please. 46778 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Herman > > Hi again > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > > > to hear > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the following. > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I think I will pass. But thanks for asking. Metta, Phil 46779 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Phil, I just happen to be online most of this day. I will quieten down again shortly. Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. Ciao Herman PS do you use a qwerty keyboard? They're good, aren't they :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Herman > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do > not like > > > > to hear > > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the > following. > > > > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues > are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I > think I will pass. But thanks for asking. > > Metta, > Phil 46780 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:00am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > I am also following with interest the discussions between you and > Lodewijk about neither of you existing. LOL. > > Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) > will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there > certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. > > Please keep us uptodate with the discussions with Lodewijk about both > your non-existences. I think they are hilarious. :-) > > _________ Dear Herman, You are right, the Buddha (the Tathaagata), the Teacher of Abhidhamma, said Samyutta Nikaya XXII.85 "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." Yamaka Sutta (translation by Venerable Dhammanando). RobertK 46781 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman {Attn. Phil, Howard, Sarah} - I liked what you wrote to Phil : "Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you". Thinking that one does not exist or that there is only emptiness everywhere - there is no Nina, no Lodewijk - and yet one accumulates kusala, avoids akusala, and practices spreading loving-kindness into the emptiness- it sounds like a thought of a confused person. Does the Buddha-sasana exist? Does mankind exist? Do we have parents? When asked what emptiness means, some people say it means anatta - do they mean 'not self', 'no self' (no souls), both or neither one? Other people say, in emptiness there are no souls, no beings, no persons, etc. - they probably mean there is 'no self'. Yet, there is another group of people who insist that 'emptiness' means nothing exists, even dhammas or Buddhas do not exist. Some say emptiness is different from non-existence. I believe, based on my understanding of what the Buddha taught, that all khandhas, ayatanas and dhatus are empty of ownership and they lead to suffering (dukkha) if one clings to them as 'me, mine, my self'. In other words, all dhammas are anatta. This is the real meaning of anatta that does not contradict with the practice of loving kindness and kusala accumulation for the purpose of setting oneself free from sufferings in the long run. What do you say, Herman? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > I just happen to be online most of this day. I will quieten down again > shortly. Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you > exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think > you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why > people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. > Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. > > Ciao > > > Herman > PS do you use a qwerty keyboard? They're good, aren't they :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Herman > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do > > not like > > > > > to hear > > > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > > > > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the > > following. > > > > > > > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues > > are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I > > think I will pass. But thanks for asking. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 46782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] general remarks on Breathing Treatise - buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It is very kind of you to write to me about what can be done to improve the presentation of the Breathing Treatise. You are right that continuity/flow has been my key objective of the posting, but the consequence is a longer-than-average message that only a few may be interested in reading it. Okay, I'll cut it down and continue to add comments form the Thai version plus mine (when I am sure it is correct). I appreciate your suggestions and the continuing support. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 18-06-2005 21:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the > > Breathing Treatise. > ------- > N: I do not intend to give a series, that is too much for me. Only little > bits here and there. I could also insert from Kh. Sujin I am listening to > almost every day, but I have to think where to put it, in an appropriate > place. > ------- > T: I also appreciate reading your comments to the > > presentation whenever you have time to write. > ----------- 46783 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/19/05 3:21:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) --------------------------------- Howard: I'm glad that you are glad! ;-) --------------------------------- The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. ------------------------------ Howard: Well, I would say that reality is within and around me. :-) ------------------------------- You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. ------------------------------ Howard: I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with great reverence and gratefulness! ------------------------------ Nina. op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > either, > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. nilovg Hi Tep, I just take out one point at a time from your former Q. As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the threefold division of the eightfold Path. It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. Nina. op 11-06-2005 21:22 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Adhicitta [adhi + citta] "higher thought", meditation, contemplation, > usually in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. > > I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is > practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta > sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. 46785 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - One nice thing about you that always entertains me is that regardless of how many times I have tried to explain something to you, if you already have a fixed belief in something else (normally, the opposite), then you will 'manage' to turn it around back to what you believe in again (and again, and again ...). This may be interpreted by other people as stubbornness, or you may think of it as a characteristic of a strong and successful leader! Take President Bush as an example. :-) >Tep: When I contemplate on the arising and >passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are >developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according >to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the >concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". > Jon: But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. Tep: We are in agreement here (but not because of your strong 'leadership' :-)) that samatha and vipassana can be yoked together. A separate samatha practice is seen, for example, in the Kayagatasati Sutta. But I am not saying that only samatha practice is necessary and sufficient. ------------------------------ Jon: As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also accompanied by samma-samadhi, ... ... Tep: I have to confess that there have been several posts on 'samma- samadhi' here, but I am still confused as to what the DSGers understand as samma samadhi. Can you give me a quick description? Samadhi is concentration. But what kind of concentration is samma- samadhi? Can anyone get samma-samadhi from reflecting over the five aggregates(or any dhamma of your choice) while in the bath room, walking on a road, driving a car, or doing any daily activity? Can samma-samadhi arise without the support of the other seven Path factors? ------------------------------- > >T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? > Jon: Good question. I would say that while walking there can be sati having as its object a dhamma belonging to any of the 4 arousings/foundations, and likewise while standing, sitting or lying. In other words, there is not meant to be a particular correlation between a certain posture and a certain object of satipatthana. Tep: Good answer! So you say that any one of the four foundations of mindfulness is equally good as the object of sati for any body posture in the present moment. If this simple answer is correct, then why did the Buddha talk in details about the various activities for training sati- sampajanna through the 4 foundations [DN 22]? Why didn't he "save his breaths" by simply saying as follows -- Monks, contemplate on any of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of the day, wherever you go, and you will gain samma-sati? It seems that our dialogue will go on and on, and on ...until you drop your strong leadership and look at dhamma for the sake of dhamma. Karuna, , Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 46786 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Herman > I don't know whether you think you > exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think > you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why > people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. > Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. Ph: There is subtlety involved in Dhamma, Herman. (See SN 1:1 for the prime example.) You are oversimplifying things, either out of mischief, or just plain thickness. I suspect the former, because you seem to be clever enough to understand that when the Buddha teaches that people are to be understood as elemental components (see any number of suttas - it is not just Abhidhamma, that's a silly misconception) he is not denying that they exist in a conventional sense, which is certainly real to the conventional mind, only that they do not exist in an ultimate sense, one that few will come to understand directly in this lifetime. Meanwhile, in the company of people who *respect* the Buddha's teaching, we can develop our intellectual understanding of this very subtle, liberating teaching, which might help set the stage for a more direct understanding. So it's really silly and unhelpful of you to mock this process. The point of the Buddha's teaching is to develop detachment, not to describe the world in terms that can be easily confirmed by the rational mind. Are you confusing the Buddha and Einstein? There is intuition involved, sensitivity, subtlety, subjectivity, surrender. It's a bit of a game, really, and the patient player wins. There aren't many patient players in the age of the internet, methinks. Anyways, listen, as I said a few months ago, there is really no point in our having Dhamma discussions, because I respect Abhidhamma and you don't. Fair enough - it's not everyone's cup of tea. Best of luck in your search for peace. Metta, Phil 46787 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories foamflowers Hi Chris so nice to met you and you dont post enough your writing is very clear and cuts very nicely clean and quick. Waves at Herman... Sorry Frank for getting you mixed up with Larry who is one of my Favorites, that must mean I am becoming attached to you as well, watch out! ;)) Where is Htoo, I miss him!? > > > >Chris: Hello Herman, > > > > > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no > > > >attention in the entire tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence > > > > between memory and sanna receives almost no attention? > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is > > > > perception. I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the > > > >Tipitaka. > > > ====================== > > >Herman: I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but > > >I am very happy to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps > > >in the Tipitaka about sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > > > > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, > > >to conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the > > > Buddha) receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > > > > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > > > > metta, > > > > Chris Before I posted to Herman on memory I did a bit of research and dug into old notes: The Buddha said, "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way difficult to attain. " Deep learning here refers to being well-read. Ananda, for instance, was fore most in learning. He could be called deeply learned. But someone who has only studied the Dharma and has not contemplated it as it is taught will never be able to understand the principles it contains. He relies on only rote memory and intellectual ability. Even if he has a sharp memory and can memorize a sutra, he won get any response. If he fails to contemplate the meaning and fails to cultivate according to it, it will ultimately be of no use to him. Love of the Way " refers to cultivators who know that the Way is really excellent, but who don't realize that originally the Way is just their own mind. It is not apart from their own mind. Those people go searching outside their mind for another Way. Although they long for and cherish the Way, yet if they seek outside, they will go wrong. That makes the Way difficult to obtain. " By seeking outside, they will not understand the Way, nor will they be able to encounter it. Since they won encounter it, even less will they understand the Way. The longer they run, the farther away they will get. L: Some of my favorite words that I have googled on the cosmic index are : Mukha, sati, nana and sankhara....samma: When I first heard the Four Noble Truths long ago (17 years now, I thought it was 15...wow time flies). I asked my teacher, "What does 'right' mean when one says 'right' view. My Dhamma teacher is from Korea and although he knew Sanskrit and Pali like the back of his hand he did not know English very well. Not well enough to give the subtle answers I needed as a guide so I was pretty much on my own with those kinds of questions. Sunim did give me many books from the Pali Text Soceity and years latter I finally found out what samma means, and it does not mean right turn....lol I researched memory before I scribbled the note to Herman. For Herman===>Sanna : 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the third khandha . – I am sure you already know this and much more too. 2. sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensations, awareness (nibbana); (sannaya uparodhana dukkhakkhayo hoti; expl das "kamasanna"); (rupa perception of material qualities). 3. Consciousness.; (nanatta c. of diversity: see nanatta); is previous to nana; a constituent part of nama; according to later teaching differs from vinnana and panna only as a child's perceiving differs from (a) an adult's, (b) an expert's;. -- nevasanna--nasanna neither consciousness nor unconsciousness. conception, idea, notion ( "concept rather than percept") Anussarati to remember, recollect, have memory of, bear in mind; be aware Patissati : mindfulness, remembrance, memory Patibhaga : counterpart, likeness, resemblance (nimitta, imitative mental reflex, memory--image) Parimukha : parimukhan satin upatthapeti "set up his memory in front" (to remember the source, mukha also means source I think, like the source of a river or the mouth is the source of words) Pari ( (indecl.) [Idg. *peri to verbal root *per, denoting completion of a forward movement (as in Sk. pr 2,piparti. to bring across, promote; cp. Vedic prc to satisfy, prnati to fill, fulfill. See also P. para). Cp. Vedic pari, Av. pairi, Gr. pe/ri , Lat. per (also in adj. per --magnus very great); Obulg. pariy round about, Lith. per through, (intensifying prefix), Goth. fair, Ohg. fir, far=Ger. ver--] prefix, signifying (lit.) around, round about; (fig.) all round, i. e. completely, altogether. The use as prep. (with acc.=against, w. abl.=from) has entirely disappeared in Pali (but see below 1a). As adv. "all round" it is only found at J VI. 198 (pari metri causa; comb with samantato). (I have no clue why I put Pari in the cluster of interesting words except when you remember you move or bring forward what was forgotten) But memory is not the orginal just a construct so the bringing forward would be like moving something that is not real a dublicate.) Mukha [Vedic mukha, fr. Idg. *mu, onomat., cp. Lat. mu facere, Gr. muka/omai , Mhg. mugen, Lat. mugio to moo (of cows), to make the sound "moo";Ohg. mawen to cry, muckazzen to talk softly; also Gr. mu_qos word, "myth"; Ohg.mula=Ger. maul; Ags. mule snout, etc. Vedic muka silent, dumb=Lat. mutus=E. mute] L: The source or mouth face could have many meanings symbolic, metaphysical and literal, I think it fits into memory as well. 1. The mouth (with ref. to the long tongue, pahuta--jivha, of the Buddha or Mahapurisa); (uttana clear mouthed, i. e. easy to understand);(puti), (mukhena). 2. The face (unnaja m.); karoti to make a face (i. e. grimace), adho face downward. upari; assu with tearful face; see assu. -- dum sad or unfriendly looking scurrilous; bhadra brightfaced; ruda, crying 3. Entrance, mouth (of a river); aya entrance (lit. opening), i. e. cause or means of income; ukka the opening of a furnace, a goldsmith's smelting pot, ubhato--mukha having 2 openings. sandhi opening of the cleft Hence 4. Cause, ways, means, reason, by way of by way of a gift (danamukhe); (bahuhi mukhehi). -- apaya cause of ruin or loss. 5. front part, front, top, in isa of the carriage pole. 6. the top of anything, front, head, best part, topmost, foremost (aggihutta--mukha yanna), (nakkhattanan mukhan cando); (=uttaman, mukha--bhutan va).-- mokkha & pamokkha. A poetical instr. mukhasa is found at as if the nom. were mukho (s--stem). -- The abl. mukha is used as adv. "in front of, before," in cpd. sam & param, nn --adhana (1) the bit of a bridle; (2) setting of the mouth, i. e. mouth--enclosure, rim of the m.; in m. silitthan a well --connected, well--defined mouth--contour (not with trsl. "opens lightly," but better with note "is well adjusted," where write adhana for adana). --asiya to be eaten by the mouth (mukhena asitabba). Sati : memory , recognition, consciousness; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self--possession, conscience, self--consciousness (sentient is one who is self conscious?) For Chris: Sati : --sampajanna mindfulness and self--possession Samma : --sankappa right resolve, right intention; definition D ii. ; --sati right memory , right mindfulness, self--possession Saraniya: something to be remembered Sarana : protection, shelter, house, sarman Sarana : concomitant with war Sarana : remembrance; --ta (f.) remembering Sarana : reminding, remonstrating with With Metta, Lisa 46788 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:52am Subject: Re: three trainings. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I begin to like your approach to email answering by taking "one point at a time ". It is a better approach (less troublesome) than the popular in- line dialogue that keeps branching out forever. >T: > I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is > practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta > sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. N: As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the threefold division of the eightfold Path. T: The dictionary also quotes the following sutta passage, " Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) ...." So we should not overlook the role of concentration in bringing out high fruit and blessing. Further, wisdom needs the support of concentration to bring the next level of high fruit and blessing in order to eradicate all asavas. ----------------------------- N: It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. T: Yes, Nina. That's close to what I understand except for a few things. MN 117 sates very clearly that samma-samadhi (defined as the four jhanas in DN 22) is supported by samma-sati (defined as satipatthana in DN 22) and the remaining 6 path factors. Yet the 8 path factors do not bring about arahatta-phala; it takes the 8 Path factors plus samma- nana and samma-vimutti to reach the arahatta-phala <"In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten."> . -------------------------- N: Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. T: Could you please support your statement by means of at least one sutta? Thank you much. By the way, is right awareness = right mindfulness, and right understanding = right view (samma-ditthi)? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I just take out one point at a time from your former Q. > As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. > Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the > threefold division of the eightfold Path. > It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together > with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. > Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. > Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. > Nina. 46789 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:15am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- Fk: Yes, but you won't find a sutta in the pali canon where it shows the Buddha giving out amulets or condoning the use of sprinkling holy water and amulets. In fact there is a sutta on right livelihood that prohibits those kinds of activities for monks. The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. There was an interesting discussion on the pali group about the etymology of the term Hinayana. In short, the "hina" is pejorative meaning inferior. If it had simply been a non-pejorative quantitative measure differentiating large(Maha) and relatively smaller, it would have been a different pali word which I can't recall. Maybe Nina or Robert K. remembers. Hina is pejorative and meant to belittle. That said, I still find much value in the Mahayana teachings, I get along just fine with Mahayanists, and despite what it might look like I'm not trying to incite a Mahayana versus Theravada war. I'm simply pointing out the facts that support my assertion of the belittlement of Theravada by mahayana, and if there's any passionate displeasure expressed, the root of it is that I find lying, including white lies up to devious malicious lies, completely filthy and disgusting. Yes, I would lie to Hitler's minions to save the life of Jews I was hiding in my house, but if you ask me if I like your new dress, I'm either going to not answer,say something truthful without indicating whether I like it, change the subject, or literally run away to avoid being trapped with insidious follow up questions that would land me in deeper dilemmas. These days, I hardly even know what kind of Buddhist to classify myself under. As far as I know, every branch of Buddhism would see some of my views as heterodox. I may have to just start my own cult. Part of the charter would read: Mahayana good. Theravada good. Heart sutra good. Right speech good. Lying very very bad. -fk 46790 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Dear Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 1:16:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- Fk: Yes, but you won't find a sutta in the pali canon where it shows the Buddha giving out amulets or condoning the use of sprinkling holy water and amulets. In fact there is a sutta on right livelihood that prohibits those kinds of activities for monks. The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are such sutras. I find them despicable. ------------------------------------ They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. ----------------------------------- Howard: My position is just the opposite, Frank! How long have you known me? ;-) ----------------------------------- From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. ----------------------------------- Howard: I presume you aren't accusing ME of that! ----------------------------------- There was an interesting discussion on the pali group about the etymology of the term Hinayana. In short, the "hina" is pejorative meaning inferior. If it had simply been a non-pejorative quantitative measure differentiating large(Maha) and relatively smaller, it would have been a different pali word which I can't recall. Maybe Nina or Robert K. remembers. Hina is pejorative and meant to belittle. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. --------------------------------------- That said, I still find much value in the Mahayana teachings, I get along just fine with Mahayanists, and despite what it might look like I'm not trying to incite a Mahayana versus Theravada war. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, very good. I could have truthfully uttered exactly the same sentence, Frank. I am a Theravadin who finds much of value in Mahayana (and much there that is a disvalue). ---------------------------------------- I'm simply pointing out the facts that support my assertion of the belittlement of Theravada by mahayana, and if there's any passionate displeasure expressed, the root of it is that I find lying, including white lies up to devious malicious lies, completely filthy and disgusting. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I simply don't find the Heart Sutra to fall into this category. Many Mahayana sutras do not. ---------------------------------------- Yes, I would lie to Hitler's minions to save the life of Jews I was hiding in my house, but if you ask me if I like your new dress, I'm either going to not answer,say something truthful without indicating whether I like it, change the subject, or literally run away to avoid being trapped with insidious follow up questions that would land me in deeper dilemmas. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, me too, on both counts. I don't quite get how this fits into this discussion, though. --------------------------------- These days, I hardly even know what kind of Buddhist to classify myself under. As far as I know, every branch of Buddhism would see some of my views as heterodox. I may have to just start my own cult. ----------------------------------- Howard: Always fun to do! ;-)) I classify myself unquestionably as Theravadin, but that doesn't prevent me from being able to learn Dhamma in other places, even, in fact, from other religions. ------------------------------------ Part of the charter would read: Mahayana good. Theravada good. Heart sutra good. Right speech good. Lying very very bad. ------------------------------------------ Howard: OK, in that case sign me up as a charter member! ;-) ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46791 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:45am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Lisa, I enjoyed your reply and agree with your stance on how cultivating our self is the best way to make a positive change in the world. That is also my standard operating procedure, despite how my post might seem to indicate I'm this crazy eyed evangelical crusader out to convert the world to Buddhism. What I really wanted to convey is that we, including myself, are extremely fortunate to have such a rich selection of spiritual traditions to choose from, and it's easy to take it for granted and forget what kinds of incredible sacrifices had to be made for us to enjoy our spiritual prosperity. While I don't actively go out trying to promote Buddhism, by actively I mean in the evangelical proselytizing style, I do actively calibrate my volition and intentions so that when conditions arise where I can make a positive contribution to the world I'm ready to act decisively and hopefully effectively. In the mean time, I carry on my solitary practice not (unskillfully) concerned about the rise and fall of the Buddha's dispensation. -fk 46792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Howard, you wrote a very nice post. I appreciate it, Nina. op 19-06-2005 15:36 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > N: The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, I would say that reality is within and around me. :-) > ------------------------------- > You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher > of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to > him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with > great reverence and gratefulness! > ------------------------------ 46793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: anatta discussions and my father. nilovg Hi Herman, op 19-06-2005 13:06 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > I am sorry to hear about the loss of your father. N: You are very kind. Inspite of all the problems we had for the last fifteen years our lives were so closely tied to his life, we miss him very much. We miss playing music for him and the dog, but now we still play the same pieces and think of him. I also read his letters written during his four years of being hostage (one year Buchenwald) during the German occupation and many things of his character and behaviour we understand better. I am reading his memoires, he was a pioneer in many fields. When we saw his body it was so different from a body that is alive and conditioned by kamma, citta and nutrition. A corpse is only rupas conditioned by temperature. It is helpful to understand momentary death, even now one citta falls away and then it conditions the next citta: birth of a new citta. I can understand that your discussions about emptiness were emotionally too much for your son. Your son is no longer the same as when he was a baby, and even today he is different from yesterday: different feelings, memories. ---------- H: Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) > will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there > certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. ---------- N: I think that Phil and Tep explained very well that anatta is not in contradiction with social life, with the Brahmaviharas. These can be practised with less selfishness. What Phil was alluding at was what Kh Sujin said to me: what were you before this life? Another being. And then you came into this world, you parted from what you had in your previous life. In this life you receive everything and then you have to leave again. In fact we do not lose anything. There is a coming and going. She also asked me: is seeing Lodewijk? Is hearing Lodewijk? We cannot say so. She wanted to demonstrate the momentariness of citta. Intellectually we can understand the Dhamma, but so long as insight has not been developed and there is no direct understanding, anatta is hard to accept with one's whole heart, also emotionally. Our defilements are in the way, especially ignorance and wrong view we accumulated for aeons. Nina. 46794 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/19/05 2:19:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote a very nice post. I appreciate it, Nina. ======================== Thank you for your kind words! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46795 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi again, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 1:38:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are such sutras. I find them despicable. ------------------------------------ They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. ----------------------------------- Howard: My position is just the opposite, Frank! How long have you known me? ;-) ----------------------------------- From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. ----------------------------------- Howard: I presume you aren't accusing ME of that! =========================== On rereading this, I realize that you were not criticizing me, but Mahayanist excesses. I apologize for misinterpreting your intention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46796 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:28pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, Sorry for the confusion. It was my fault for not being more clear in my statement "If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures." I of course meant not you Howard but "you" the historical persons with the intent of founding a Mahayana movement with needs to justify the movement. In the Mahayana body of sutras taken as a whole, there is both implicit and explicit belittling of the sravaka vehicle and arahants. As for my 2 examples on right speech, it was a preemptive defensive move to stop any possible attack on what appeared to be my seemingly unreasonable clinging to a notion of right speech with impeccable truth. Without those qualifying examples, I (I as in if I was another reader on the list) could easily rip that right speech argument to shreds. I'm not a fan of the white lie, but I am still prone to commit that felony myself from time to time because it's the easiest way to avoid social complications. And just to tie up any other potential loose ends, I did not mean to insinuate that Howard wears dresses, I did not mean to insinuate that women and their neurotic insecurities tend to cause more need for social white lying. I believe that men and women are equally neurotic, insecure, and disturbed, but that they tend to have gender specific patterns for exhibiting those pathologies. I apologize for any other misunderstandings and misleading statements that I made. -fk 46797 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 4:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Sorry for the confusion. It was my fault for not being more clear in my statement "If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures." ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's what threw me off. :-) --------------------------------------- I of course meant not you Howard but "you" the historical persons with the intent of founding a Mahayana movement with needs to justify the movement. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I realized that upon rereading! ------------------------------------ In the Mahayana body of sutras taken as a whole, there is both implicit and explicit belittling of the sravaka vehicle and arahants. As for my 2 examples on right speech, it was a preemptive defensive move to stop any possible attack on what appeared to be my seemingly unreasonable clinging to a notion of right speech with impeccable truth. Without those qualifying examples, I (I as in if I was another reader on the list) could easily rip that right speech argument to shreds. I'm not a fan of the white lie, but I am still prone to commit that felony myself from time to time because it's the easiest way to avoid social complications. -------------------------------- Howard: Understood. We all do that some time or other. -------------------------------- And just to tie up any other potential loose ends, I did not mean to insinuate that Howard wears dresses, I did not mean to insinuate that women and their neurotic insecurities tend to cause more need for social white lying. I believe that men and women are equally neurotic, insecure, and disturbed, but that they tend to have gender specific patterns for exhibiting those pathologies. I apologize for any other misunderstandings and misleading statements that I made. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I have a really cute pink item with ruffles that I think you'd just love on me! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ -fk ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46798 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Nina: "Returning to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163: Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:32pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Howard - It was interesting for me to compare your statements of 'Appreciation of the AbhidhammaTeacher' (see below). I was relieved to know that the Abhidhamma Teacher in Nina's mind was the same as the Great Sage in Howard's mind. > > Nina: You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. >> You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest >> admiration, respect and confidence. > > ------------------------------ > > Howard: > > I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with great reverence and gratefulness! > > ------------------------------ Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > you wrote a very nice post. > I appreciate it, > Nina. 46801 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Alone yet Free ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Secluded Completion in Ideal Solitude: The once asked a Bhikkhu just named 'Elder': How, Elder, is one living completely alone ? Regarding this, Elder: All that is past, this one has left all behind! All that is future, this one has all relinquished! All that is present individuality, this one has completely removed any desire and lust for... The intelligent, having conquered all, knowing all, From all states detached, disengaged, & unsoiled, Having given up all, released by removal of craving, Such One, I call: 'Living Alone'... Source: The Grouped Sayings by Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 282-4 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46802 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 0:52am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 226 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] There are four types of akusala cetasikas which have to arise with every akusala citta. These cetasikas are: ignorance, moha shamelessness, ahirika recklessness, anottappa restlessness, uddhacca One of these, ignorance, is root, the other three are not roots. These four types have to assist each akusala citta in performing its function. So long as these types have not been eradicated akusala citta will arise. Only the arahat has eradicated these four types. For him there are no more conditions for the arising of akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 46803 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Sarah, as you requested. > > This was the e-mail referencing post #46584 (not included here because > of its length). I think I expected a reply from Nina, too, but I know > that she is away for a week or so, so that is why there wasn't a > response. Just don't want it to die there. .... S: I understand. It was a good post. I just re-checked and remember now that when I wrote back #46633 to you, I had this other post of yours on 'Discipline' in front of me too and made some references to it. So I thought I had indirectly replied to it as well. I probably should have quoted from it directly. .... > are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' > or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some > correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, > what approach to take, etc? .... S: The main differences as I see it are, arising just from this post of yours: a) you are 'trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 lives', trying to avoid any behaviour which you think is inconsistent with how you imagine a sotapanna would live ... On the other hand, I'm not interested in any kind of 'imitation', but rather in knowing the present tendencies and dhammas arising. ***** b) as you admit, you 'force practise' .... S: On the other hand, I see this as Self-pursuit ***** c) You have the idea that you can choose to 'walk away' and 'pursue "deeds of merit" ' ... S: Again, I see this as a lack of confidence in understanding conditioned dhammas and the strong idea of 'control' as leading to many of your difficulties. I think you mentioned that the serious problems only started after your interest in Buddhism began. ***** d) I think you see 'discipline' and 'self-discipline' very much in terms of particular activities you pursue (or don't pursue) ... S: Whereas I see them very much in terms of very momentary cittas and cetasikas, regardless of the activity at the time. Kusala and refraining from akusala can arise anywhere, anytime -- even whilst having fun with your friends. .... e) in brief, there are lots of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in the way you see the practise and discipline. ... S: Again, I think that when we appreciate the complexity of conditions a little more (even in theory), we can see why the present dhammas have to be as they are and not another way. The Abhidhamma really helps a lot in daily life. Pls let me know whether we are getting any 'corelation in our intentions' here and any comments you have on our approaches to re-starting our Abhidhamma studies. Any further questions or clarifications needed? **** > > if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life > and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that > sake the discipline at all. > let me know. > pz, ... S: Please tell us about it. It sounds interesting and maybe good indications that your life is slowly returning to 'normal'??? As your understanding in the Dhamma grows, you'll find the practise and discipline fit into your daily life more and more easily, regardless of the activities you are following. How is the computer programming going? Perhaps you have a job? Let me know how we're doing here. Metta, Sarah ======= 46804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. nilovg Hi Tep, op 19-06-2005 17:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: N: Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings > when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever > dhamma appears. > > T: Could you please support your statement by means of at least one > sutta? Thank you much. By the way, is right awareness = right > mindfulness, and right understanding = right view (samma-ditthi)? --------- N: As to your last sentence: yes. You also use samma-ñaa.na sometimes, and I understand you mean a highly developed insight? Or lokuttara? I think we can use samma-di.t.thi for all levels, also for lokuttara magga. See M.N. 117, the ariyan view that is cankerless. You ask me for a sutta. No, such a sutta cannot be found. The Buddha spoke to the monks about the three training leading to the highest fruit: the fruition of arahatship. But I understand the three trainings to be together, just as the Path factors being developed together. What is right concentration of the eightfold Path without right view or paññaa of the eightfold Path? It could not be a path factor. See M.N. 117: right view comes first. I see concentration as a necessary factor. It can also be khanika samaadhi, momentary concentration. It focusses just for a moment on the naama or ruupa that appears, and at the same time sati is non-forgetful of it, right thinking (alas often translated as right purpose, or intention) hits that very object so that pannñaa can do its work in penetrating its true nature. When I use the word focussing, I do not mean trying to concentrate on a nama or rupa with an idea of self. It all happens within a moment, because the right conditions are present. It is very fast, nobody can plan it. --------- T:> MN 117 sates very clearly that samma-samadhi (defined as the four > jhanas in DN 22) is supported by samma-sati (defined as satipatthana > in DN 22) and the remaining 6 path factors. ---------- N: I think you know that when the Path is still mundane it is five or six factored. Only when it is lokuttara all eight factors arise together (the three of right livelihood included). Right concentration: the level of jhana or not necessarily for everyone of the level of jhana. -------- T: Yet the 8 path factors do not > bring about arahatta-phala; it takes the 8 Path factors plus samma- > nana and samma-vimutti to reach the arahatta-phala <"In one of right > concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right > release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight > factors, and the arahant with ten."> . ------ N: I think that there are not more than eight factors, but here different aspects are shown. Freedom, vimutti is in itself not a path factor. But here, in the case of the arahat they are called path factors. I just compared B.B.'s translation of M.N. 117, the Great Forty. The path factors are developed on an on until arahatship is attained. The sammaa-samaadhi accompanying the fruition consciousness is the highest calm, because all defilements are eradicated. I often find sutta texts about sila, samaadhi and pañña difficult. But I read several times in the Co that sammaa-samaadhi can refer to sammaa-samaadhi accompanying the fruition consciousness. We do not always know to what degree of samaadhi the text refers to. We have to be careful and need the help of the Co. otherwise we may interprete wrongly. In different contexts samaadhi is of different degrees and has different qualities. As to the Great Forty, in the beginning, right concentration is here supramundane right concentration (Spk, the Co). Thus, nibbaana is the object that is experienced. B.B.'s note: the two additional two factors of the arahat: right knowledge: his reviewing knowledge that he has destroyed all defilements and right deliverance: his experience of liberation from all defilements. Nina. 46805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion nilovg Hi Larry, op 20-06-2005 02:42 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: The basic debate is that Sarah > says a paramattha dhamma can be the object of desire or aversion and I > say only a concept can be the object of desire or aversion. My reasoning > is that if the individual essence of an object is concealed by ignorance > then what is apparently the object must be a concept. As you say, > "ignorance conditions akusala citta". I would say the reality that is > ignorance is conceptualization. ------ N: The sad truth is that as soon as a pleasant sight or sound appears, there can be lobha, even though the meaning of what it is (the concept) is not known. And then there is also ignorance arising together. Afterwards when there is thinking of concepts on account of that ruupa, more lobha and thus also more ignorance arises. Thus, I would not connect ignorance with just concepts. Ignorance does not know that there is a pleasant ruupa, and it does not know that there is lobha, it is completely dark. ---------- L: In the very immediate situation of tasting food and liking it, I would > say what conditions the arising of liking is a compact whole of various > dhammas, both concepts and ultimately realities. And I am saying a > compact whole is a concept. ------- N: right -------- L: I realize this position contradicts some basic abhidhamma principles but > it fits very nicely with other abhidhamma principles such as 'only > wisdom (pañña) penetrates the individual essences (sabhava) of > realities', and 'when there is wisdom there is no desire or aversion'. > [These aren't quotes, just principles.] ------- N: Wisdom also realizes the nature of desire and aversion, it can follow those akusala dhammas. Whereas ignorance does not. ------- L: Nina: "I answer according to the book, but the direct realization is far > away. It is really difficult to penetrate the true characteristic of > ignorance, we have so much ignorance about our ignorance." > > L: We won't find this penetration in the book. We have to look at the > dinner table.:-)) -------- N: Right you are. Awareness and understanding should be developed also at the dinner table, the only way. ------- > L: :-) Yes, I will hang on to the water element. > ps: I expect Sarah is splashing around in the water element too. ------- N: We have a heatwave now, but in order not to be lazy I shall occupy myself with sloth and torpor, which are a mental indisposition. They paralyze and take away wholesome energy. Nina. 46806 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you for your detailed replies and for sharing your difficulties with us. I'm sure it takes some courage to do this. --- balancing_life wrote: > The one i pity most is her father, who loves her the most, as she is > intectually able to communicate with him as an adult, and not a child > and he only can be himself, with her around...no pretences. > > He loved her so much, that he gave her everything she asked for and > her hobby is reading and listening to S Club 7 (i get depressed, when > i hear their songs on the radio) ... S: I hope that for the sake of the family, you can help the father to find some acceptance -- he did his very best for his daughter, but no parent can prevent another's kamma bringing its results or control the mind-states of a child. We shouldn't blame the other children either -- again, this wasn't their intention and the result depended on your niece's kamma too. I think that understanding a little more about kamma and vipaka helps a lot -- it helps us to have more peace and acceptance of events and this will help us to have greater compassion and skills in helping those around us who are suffering. When we have regrets and blame ourselves and others, there is no understanding of kamma or other conditions at work. .... > > In fact, her father asked me to go to the furniture shop to buy a > bookshelf, just to keep all her reading books...like Harry Potter, > Lord of the Rings, etc, and many others until the whole bookshelf is > full...now it's gathering dust, cos her sister taste/hobbies, are > entirely different from hers. ... S: I hope that in due course, he can 'let go', but it must be so hard. When we were travelling in India, a Thai friend showed me she was carrying around the ashes of her daughter. Apparently she takes them everywhere. Her sister also said to me 'she can't let go' and so it brings her so much grief. ... > Then unfortunately, i read in a Mahayana's book, that those who died > in accidents or those who committed suicide cannot be reincarnated > until someone else takes their place...but then again, who knows, as > Lord Buddha has told us, that not to believe anything that anybody > said. ... S: This is all quite wrong according to the Buddha's teachings. There is just a long, long, indefinitely long, chain of cittas (moments of consciousness) without any interval or break. It makes no difference at all what the cause of death is. It depends on previous kamma, maybe from many lifetimes ago, what rebirth takes place. There is no person in reality that dies or takes any place. Also, even though there must be great despair at the time of taking one's own life, cittas are so very rapid, that we have no idea at all about the last cittas of life. They may be very calm and wise. There are examples in the suttas of people who took their lives in despair, but became enlightened just before dying. So we can have no idea at all from the actions or appearance of the body. It's just like when someone dies peacefully in old age -- we don't know about the plane of the next life. Perhaps she'll be able to rejoice in your good deeds too. ... > Yes, Lord Buddha's teachings have taught me a lot...that suffering is > envitable...that nothing is permanent and everything is only > temporary...so we have to live in the NOW, as Ekhart Tolle has found > out for himself. (or in other words, to be mindful or live in that > moment only, for tomorrow may never come.) > > Well, her death has taught me never to take anything or anyone for > granted...i thought i would one day wind up in the old folks home and > she and her sister with their families would bring me "goodies", when > they come to visit me, but unfortunately, that dream is gone...as > Chinese proverb says, "The coffin only contains dead people, not old > people". ... S: :-). And the development of understanding of the Buddha's teachings is the greatest respect you can pay to her memory. Perhaps in due course you can share it with your family. And yes, any expectations about how others will treat us in our old age are quite useless. Our present study, interest and understanding of the teachings is the best retirement package:). ... > You are rite, Sarah, i have learnt to let go, but as i have said > before yesterday, i am into a real turmoil now, which is beyond my > control and i can only solace myself, that i have used up all my good > Karma and is now reaping the bad. ... S: May I suggest that usually when we find ourselves in turmoil, the main problem is not the kamma results so much as the strong aversion and thinking about/dwelling on what's being experienced or what was experienced before. And this, in turn may lead to more bad kamma, so we need to see what is the real root of our problems. .... > > Well, i can't control my past lives, but i can at least hopefully do > some good in this life, so that is one of the reason, why i am > sharing this e-correspondence with all of you...as i do not have much > money to donate and do not have the time to do charity... ... S: This is the right attitude. Please share in our discussions here too. You will help others in this way. ..... > I apologise for rambling here, as Lord Buddha taught us that there > is "no self", "no body", "no I/myself" and "no ego", but i was just > so sad that my niece had passed away, and i always thought, being so > intelligent as she was, it was such a waste, and i always thought, > she would succeed in my brother's business...i would have gladly > traded my life for us, if only i could do so. > > Gotto go... > :} > AliceStillUnfortunatelyInRegretsLand ... S: No need to apologise at all. Please let me know how you get on. It's very natural to be sad, very sad, but we can begin to see that it is the present sadness and ignorance that is the problem now, rather than what has happened. You need to be strong to help her family. You may like to look at posts in 'Useful Posts' in the files section sometime. Look at posts saved under 'Discouraged', also 'Dosa (aversion)', 'Intermediate States (Bardo)' and maybe'Isolated'. Please keep sharing. Metta, Sarah ======= 46807 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Lisa, all, Interesting to read your word definitions :-) And thanks for your chatty and informative posts and for the opportunity to reflect on the quote "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way difficult to attain." I think it is from the Sutra in Forty Two Sections? (We are becoming quite 'ecumenical' on dsg lately - what with the Heart Sutra and now this quote :-)) My understanding (from a Theravada perspective) is that the Buddha valued and encouraged deep learning (Pariyatti). "The Case for Study" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.buddhistinformation.com/case_for_study.htm and another word to add to the collection :-) pariyatti: 'learning the doctrine', the 'wording of the doctrine'. In the 'progress of the disciple' (q.v.), 3 stages may be distinguished: theory, practice, realization, i.e. (1) learning the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal. (App.). Thankfully, we aren't required to memorise the lot nowadays - I don't think we fully appreciate what a benefit the print media and the internet are. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Chris so nice to met you and you dont post enough your writing is > very clear and cuts very nicely clean and quick. > >>>courtesy snip<<< > Before I posted to Herman on memory I did a bit of research and dug > into old notes: > > The Buddha said, "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way > difficult to attain. " Deep learning here refers to being well- read. >>>courtesy snip<<< > With Metta, > Lisa 46808 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn Hallo Lisa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hallo Joop, > > I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of > duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked > off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy > aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the > Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, Sun > Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe I > can include the Eightfold Path as well?] > > I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some > Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to behave > if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of information Joop: Your behavior is not a problem, but I still have problems understanding you. I think we have different temperaments: your buddhism is a kind of extatic buddhism, a dionisian buddhism; and I prefer a apollian one (cf Friedrich Nietzsche) ...(snip) > What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, > but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see > in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial > doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. > Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be taught > cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings > according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra II.112- > 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up > to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from the > Lankavatara Sutra. > > > With metta, > Lisa I don't have problems with a doctrine for babes (do you mean babies or sexy girls with that word?) and I don'tlike the word conqueror, it's too much a militaristic metaphore. About your quote of the Lamkavatara Sutra, I think you use it to me because I said somethink about 'skilful means in a post some days ago. I think 'skilfu; means'is a principle that should be used very careful, otherwise it can be used to defend nonsense. I you dont think a discussion between us is fruitful: don't answer me. With metta Joop 46809 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol sarahprocter... Hi Alice, I just lost a longer reply to this post of yours. In brief, I thought you made excellent comments and gave some good quotes. --- balancing_life wrote: > There was another case in our country in KL, whereby, a man who was > drunk was angry (road rage) at a motorist in front of him (maybe just > for driving too slow) and shot her to death, without any notice. > Actually, guns are not legalized in Malaysia, but some VIPs or > someone who are in the high position, can get them. > And the irony of that incident was that women who got shot, usually > did not travel that road as she will use another road to shuttle her > friend home, but unfortunately, on that day, her friend fell sick, > and so she headed straight for home. > Well, i guess that is fated, and there is no escape from certain > death. .... S: Time for kamma to bring its result. Like when the ingredients of a soup are cooked together in a particular way, the result cannot be different. .... > > Sarah, if you do not mind, could you tell us, how liquor took away > your father's life? > > :} > AliceInCuriosityWillKillTheCatLand ... S: Ummm - A very clever man, a classics scholar from Cambridge and a lawyer from a well-to-do family, also a doting family man who adored his children....but, a weakness for drink. When we were young, it was just social drinking and he was encouraged as the 'life and soul' of any party.....over the years it got worse and worse, leading to some really horrible incidents, manic depression, serious epileptic fits and much worse. Impossible to talk to him or get any help even though we were so very close. In the end, he lost just about everything. It's still difficult for me to talk about, even though he died 20 yrs ago. He once wrote to me that he was so glad I'd found what I was looking for (in the Dhamma) because he'd been looking his whole life but not found it. .... > > Thus the social drinker who drinks only on social > occasions and who is not addicted nor particularly drawn to liquors > and spirits does not break the precept so long as he does not get > himself tipsy or intoxicated. ... S: I'm not sure this point is right. ... > Special Importance of the 5th Precept > > Usually, when this precept is broken, all the other precepts are also > bound to be broken. This is because when a person breaks the 5th > precept, i.e. he becomes intoxicated (drunk or high as the case may > be), and there is no telling what he can do. <...> "To refrain from distilled and fermented intoxicants WHICH ARE THE > OCCASION FOR CARELESSNESS" .... S: Yes, the danger is in the habit-forming patterns. The danger is in what it leads to. One drink leads to two and so on. Unless there's awareness, there's no knowing of the effects. Also see 'drinking' in U.P. Fortunately, seeing the effect on my father brought me to my senses in this regard for which I'm grateful. metta, Sarah ====== 46810 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al, Also, is this extract I posted the other day from 'Cetasikas' relevant to our discussion on 'Discipline' and intentions for study, would you say? ..... >Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a different person at different moments. In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala citta.< ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 46811 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Chris and everyone, > > Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text > available on line anywhere? > > The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the > Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Hallo Herman, Yes, and complete! http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf The appendix about 'memory'can be found on page 111 of this ebook which I like very much and not only because Nyanaponika is critical on ontology Another, not explicit buddhistic, remark on 'memory' What I understand from scienmtific (neuroscience, psychology) research on memory, the metaphore that the brain is a kind of hard disk, is not good at all. Memory hardly exists in the brain on such a permanent way, every moment again it is refreshed and restructured, influenced by new experiences. When I think I remember something from my youth, I in fact remember a memory of some years ago from a memory ten years ago etc. from what happened in my youth. Metta Joop 46812 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflection, mirror mirror on the wall, also duplication, dna replication sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a > closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention > Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. ... S: :) Thx for the definition of the term....btw, we encourage all Attention and non-Attention Getters here to put a pic in the album...!! .... > > Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. > > First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the > mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? .... S: No. The brain is a concept we have... I wouldn't say nama is mind either. Leaving aside nibbana, Nama is any reality which can experience an object. So 'seeing consciousness' is nama, but the visible object which is seen is rupa. Tasting is nama, but the taste itself is rupa. Feeling is nama, but heat and cold are rupas. It is a big juicy piece of meat, so let's stick with it. Ask away. Excel Qs as I see them. Also see ch 1 in Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' on Zolag or other websites .... >The brain is our western way to > describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is > located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the > brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., > seems to have a mind of their own. .... S: I think it's easier when we reflect on the Abhidhamma if we put aside our scientific knowledge which has a different purpose and set of definitions. In the (Abhi)dhamma, we're looking at what can be directly known. Brain can only be conceptualised, right? .... > > I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in > Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not > very confident of using them. So, be kind to this neophyte and don't > tear me up too much as I play with this new toy I've discovered. ... S: Don't worry....we're all v.sympathetic to newcomers here:)Don't worry about getting the Pali terms mixed up at all and mix and match as you like -- Lisa's an expert on this. Then there's Naomi, Phil's wife, who makes up her own Pali:-)). Seriously, the Nyantiloka dict which I think Lisa gave a link for his v.helpful. Also there's a simple Pali glossary in the 'files'.It's worth printing this one out to have handy. Best of all, ask, ask. 1/3 sounds pretty high to me... .... > Sarah you and K.Sujin, I've noticed in my recent Googles,are well > represented so I'd rather not engage you both at the same time, but > there's a first time for everything huh? ... S: Don't worry, K.Sujin doesn't post:) Not sure what googles have been up to...:/ .... > > Oh, no, I've only got 5 min. on the computer left to do research etc. > at least the points I was gonna attack, engage, are listed below in > your p.s. and I can recover Monday. ... S: And I have less than 5 mins before dashing to Tai Chi.. ... > > Glad to be here. Cetasikas and Cittas I'm still not too clear yet I > know it's in the Abhidhamma so I'll review. Oh, Vipissana meditation, > please explain! > ... S: I prefer vipassana bhavana or mental development...so even now, while dashing, there are cittas and cetasikas (i.e namas) experiencing objects. Even now, there can be awareness of a citta, a cetasika or a rupa. That means that there can be awareness now of seeing consciousness, visible object, feeling, atttachment, aversion, agitation or any other dhamma which is apparent. By developing awareness and understanding more about what it is, what the objects are, vipassana can develop....slowly. Also see 'vipassana' in U.P. Pls raise any of the other points again.... I minute...sorry, this is a little rushed...but I wanted to get back to you. Hope you settle in well, Colette....I'm sure you will. Great to have your interest in Abhidhamma and the various discussions with your special touch...(join the whacky women's club here....:)). Also, disagree anytime. Metta, Sarah ====== 46813 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:12am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare cases, contented disinterest.) Metta, Dan Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." 46814 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers On 6/20/05 4:38 AM, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Lisa, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" > wrote: >> Hallo Joop, >> >> I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of >> duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked >> off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy >> aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the >> Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, > > Sun >> Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe > > I >> can include the Eightfold Path as well?] >> >> I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some >> Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to > > behave >> if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of >> information > > Joop: Your behavior is not a problem, but I still have problems > understanding you. I think we have different temperaments: your > buddhism is a kind of extatic buddhism, a dionisian buddhism; and I > prefer a apollian one (cf Friedrich Nietzsche) > > ...(snip) Ahhh, existentialist, what the senses can pick up is reality as it is kind of guy...that's cool with me. Nietzsche rejected the idea of universal constants, and spoke of truth that is subjective. He believed the life of Now and creativity and living a healthy life right now rather than living life for the promise of Heavenly things of the afterlife. There is nothing beyond sensual experience from what I understand his writings to say. He seem to think that being human is not a big deal and when we pass as a species the universe will not care. I'm more of a Sophia Perennis girl the philosophers from all over the world that contribute to Sophia Perennis try to provide a thoughtful response to the desacralization of our times and to the resulting loss of the sense for traditional guiding principles. Lol....the bench is big enough we both can sit here together I think, I don't mind if you sit by me I like Nietzche. I like all sorts of traditions and views that have the same kind of outlook as some old sages say the path to freedom is to know thyself. All end up with the same view, no view at all. >> What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, >> but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see >> in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial >> doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. >> Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be >> taught >> cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings >> according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra >>II.112- >> 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up >> to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from >> the >> Lankavatara Sutra. >> >> >> With metta, >> Lisa > > I don't have problems with a doctrine for babes (do you mean babies > or sexy girls with that word?) and I don'tlike the word conqueror, > it's too much a militaristic metaphore. > About your quote of the Lamkavatara Sutra, I think you use it to me > because I said somethink about 'skilful means in a post some days > ago. I think 'skilfu; means'is a principle that should be used very > careful, otherwise it can be used to defend nonsense. > > I you dont think a discussion between us is fruitful: don't answer > me. I always find discussion here fruitful, but whether the fruit is going to be sweet to eat that will have to wait until picking season. > With metta > > Joop I no problem with this discussion you are very blunt and easy to see, I find the verse lovely because I felt like a warrior in my past but not in the sense Of killing sentient beings. My battle weapons are the virtues and The battle is to unbind from mara. I used the virtues to make a clearing so I could sit or live in peace so I could see peace as I go about daily life. Not much worry or struggle I found out if I use the virtues as a guideline for living. But it was a struggle to put them in place because I lived in a place where I had to defend myself all the time. For me it took courage to not fight when faced with violence because I had a strong habit of defending myself. Knowing there is no self in the clinging aggregates that self defence habit is very deep and will take many life times to fade away. At first it was very scary to not fight and face my anger and fear without flinching just like a warrior. To see it so clearly in others now because I don't struggle so much still scares me and I want to run away and hide. I don't but my heart still pounds and I feel like crying once or twice a month. I think that's hormones though...hahaha You may not get that joke it's a girl thing...and also you're not from my culture...sigh, my mate is from the Nederlands you know. His Momma and Pappa both survived the War, his Papa just passed I was lucky enough to met him. His Mama is still alive and she is a sweet heart. Ik hou van Miep! I like the Nederlands and the people felt just like home to me. It took a lot of courage for me to sit in meditation when I was being hit With boredom, panic attacks, pain in knees and back, and all those Visions and bliss. In the past when these states came up I would run To the tv, food, hobbies, books, chores, friends, fight or what ever I could do to get away from them or think I was some kind of God or Goddess (hahhaha), just kidding. There is no bliss and no real gut twisting sadness in this life anymore, I just think weird thoughts and write in a strange way. And I find Dhamma in The strangest places. Joop what norm do you judge me and yourself by? With Metta, Lisa 46815 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/20/05 4:56:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: When I use the word focussing, I do not mean trying to concentrate on a nama or rupa with an idea of self. It all happens within a moment, because the right conditions are present. It is very fast, nobody can plan it. ====================== Do you mean to imply by this that there are no conventional actions that can be taken to support the tendency for momentary concentration to arise? Or, if there are, what do you understand these to be? Do they include conventional "paying attention"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46816 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:27am Subject: Lobha: case in point ksheri3 Group, I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: "9. Three Roots (Múla)- Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites are the roots of good. Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. Craving is also used as an equivalent of lobha. In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a rule, clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, ordinarily there is aversion. " The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and the Nazis. The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. In the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's hate for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and honored both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, Chasidat. The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave to the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew will turn into the Nazi? toodles, colette 46817 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:52am Subject: Roots ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Wow, we are very close! You have a strong and sensitive aura about you! I was going to comment on this: in my meditations last nite I recalled someone's mentioning bhavanga consciousness and that resonted with me in the Abhidhamma since it gives somewhat of an explanation for a sensation I had continually after I rolled daddy's Caddy end over end three times in 1978 and was almost dead, luckily the EMTs brought me back. Below is the shortened definition: "27. Thought-Process The subject, the consciousness, receives objects from within and without. When a person is in a state of profound sleep his mind is said to be vacant, or, in other words, in a state of bhavanga. We always experience such a passive state when our minds do not respond to external objects. This flow of bhavanga is interrupted when objects enter the mind. Then the bhavanga consciousness vibrates for one thought-moment and passes away. Thereupon the sense-door consciousness (pañca-dvárávajjana) arises and ceases. At this stage the natural flow is checked and is turned towards the object. Immediately after there arises and ceases the eye consciousness* (cakkhu viññána), but yet knows no more about it. This sense operation is followed by a moment of reception of the object so seen (sampaticchana). Next comes the investigating faculty (santírana) or a momentary examination of the object so received. After this comes that stage of representative cognition termed the determining consciousness (votthapana). Discrimination is exercised at this stage. Freewill plays its part here. Immediately after there arises the psychologically most important stage - Impulsion or javana. It is at this stage that an action is judged whether moral or immoral. Kamma is performed at this stage; if viewed rightly (yoniso manasikára), the javana becomes moral; if viewed wrongly (ayoniso manasikára), it becomes immoral. In the case of an Arahat this javana is neither moral nor immoral, but merely functional (kiriya). This javana stage usually lasts for seven thought moments, or, at times of death, five. The whole process which happens in an infinitesimal part of time ends with the registering consciousness (tadálambana), lasting for two thought-moments - thus completing one thought-process at the expiration of seventeen thought-moments. " *[i.e., if the object is a form (rúpa). This consciousness depends on the five objects of sense.] The three kinds of bhavanga consciousness are vipáka. They are either one of the two santírana cittas, accompanied by indifference, mentioned above, or one of the eight sobhana vipáka cittas, described in section 6. Pañca-dvárávajjana is a kriyá citta. Pañca viññána is one of the ten moral and immoral vipáka cittas. Sampaticchana and santírana are also vipáka cittas. The mano-dvárávajjana (mind-door consciousness), a kriyá citta, functions as the votthapana consciousness. One can use one's freewill at this stage. The seven javana thought-moments constitute kamma. The tadálambana is a vipáka citta which is one of the three santírana cittas or one of the eight sobhana vipáka cittas. I'll be happy to comment on this later, now I don't have much time at all for all that I want to respond to. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Colette, > > --- colette wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a > > closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention > > Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. > ... > S: :) Thx for the definition of the term....btw, we encourage all > Attention and non-Attention Getters here to put a pic in the album...!! colette: we can talk about it later. > .... > > > > Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. > > > > First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the > > mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? > .... > S: No. The brain is a concept we have... > I wouldn't say nama is mind either. Leaving aside nibbana, Nama is any > reality which can experience an object. colette: okay, I concede that my quick definition didn't make the grade. I may've been thinking of nana. I got it somewhere here but not time to locate. So 'seeing consciousness' is nama, > but the visible object which is seen is rupa. Tasting is nama, but the > taste itself is rupa. Feeling is nama, but heat and cold are rupas. colette: DOOR CONSCIOUSNESSES, correct? > > It is a big juicy piece of meat, so let's stick with it. Ask away. Excel > Qs as I see them. > > Also see ch 1 in Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' on Zolag or other > websites > .... > >The brain is our western way to > > describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is > > located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the > > brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., > > seems to have a mind of their own. > .... > S: I think it's easier when we reflect on the Abhidhamma if we put aside > our scientific knowledge which has a different purpose and set of > definitions. In the (Abhi)dhamma, we're looking at what can be directly > known. Brain can only be conceptualised, right? colette: mind can only be conceptualised, brain is the material, manifested aspect, the sense organ for lack of a better word. > .... > > > > I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in > > Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not > > very confident of using them. So, be